EPTI don't have a hero either. Sure I love some of the NA players but there is no hero for me; not even a glimmer of hope for someone to compete against the top players in the world (Koreans). GSL is like the NBA and MLG/NASL ect.. are like the WNBA but allows some NBA players to come play. Is it this feeling of hopelessness and knowing that even if someone does well in the NA events they wont be able to compete in GSL, that's preventing me from feeling good about throwing money at them? I feel alright with buying GSL because I feel like they are very family-like. MLG and the US tournies feel more generic and big business-like. I think we need a better psychological profile of these businesses and the customer base.
Monetizing Starcraft / LordJerith rant. Thoughts? - Page 28
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teer
United States189 Posts
I don't have a hero either. Sure I love some of the NA players but there is no hero for me; not even a glimmer of hope for someone to compete against the top players in the world (Koreans). GSL is like the NBA and MLG/NASL ect.. are like the WNBA but allows some NBA players to come play. Is it this feeling of hopelessness and knowing that even if someone does well in the NA events they wont be able to compete in GSL, that's preventing me from feeling good about throwing money at them? I feel alright with buying GSL because I feel like they are very family-like. MLG and the US tournies feel more generic and big business-like. I think we need a better psychological profile of these businesses and the customer base. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On February 10 2012 08:28 ReachTheSky wrote: Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket). I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there. I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol. These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing) But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else. lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out. | ||
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riboflavin
United States226 Posts
I expect Sundance, Mr. Chae and other leaders in the industry to decide how they can best create value. Posing a hypothetical about if PPV is a tough way to make a decision, as there are too many unaccounted variables. I am disappointed that traditional broadcast models are being suggested, such as PPV. Where is the evolution in thought when it comes to delivering world-class content to fans? These companies have access to tech savvy consumers and internet presence like never before -- build a platform on that?! Partner up to share cost and shorten time to market. Maybe the fighting community leaders and LoL would be interested in a shared subscription model in order to create an appealing menu of content to subscribers and advertisers alike. | ||
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LunaSea
Luxembourg369 Posts
On February 10 2012 08:50 Doodsmack wrote: lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out. Well demanding that SC2 tournaments make people pay LIKE "a professional sport that is watched by millions on national TV" "boggles"my mind even more here. | ||
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venage
Sweden65 Posts
Imagine a drug kingpin sitting on a throne with his mighty swagger thinking about how he can get this new dope ass drug (called idraphine, naniweed, hukstacy or whatever) out on the market. So he gets a couple of drug dealers and tells them to give away a small dose to as many people as possible and he'll pay the dealers a small fee per guy who takes the drug. Now some of the dealers manage to find a huge audience Pimpin'Nine, Dreamthug, Great Swag Lamarr and Mighty Lil' Gangsta is giving this new drug away like its viagra in the common elderly home brothel. However there are some drug dealers who doesn't show the same efficiency, mostly because a lot of people prefer the older drugs or really prefer the other more swagger looking drug dealers. Lil'Nassel and his gang is not up to par with the top notch guys but they still hang on. So one day the kingpin says "you dawgs, its time to get this bitch crackin', feel free to charge whatever you wan't for this awesome drug. Hell I'll still pay you if you just give it away for free cause I'm such a nice guy and all... you dig?" All the lil' thugs start planning how to earn money of this great drug and some try to just make an improved version that gets you more pixels during the trip while others just add a smiley face on a couple of bags and offer to sell them for just a buck. The junkies react variously to this, some people think its great that the drug dealers are so engaged and giving to the community so they gladly pay a dollar for that smiley face on the dope bag. Others just prefer to get it free, like they always has. Time goes by and Mighty Lil' Gangstah gets a genius idea "Yo, why have I been a fool and giving this dope ass drug away for free? I'll just make mo of this better version and only sell that for mo money. Playah!". The top dealers are divided about the idea and some choose to go on with this new platform while others choose to go on with the same old drug dealing ways. So what happens next? There's a slightly better version of a drug thats free being dealt for normal drug prices. The major dealers must have an exceptional market share if they where to pull of this brave stunt or else their piece of pie would be split among the dealers who currently is giving it away for free. But the big dealers don't have to sell as much as they gave away before in order to make the same amount of cash, they only need a part of the junkies to keep paying in order to stay in good shape. So Major League Gaming oh I meant Mighty Lil' Gangstah loses its first place spot as a market leader and Dreamthug who's been making the drug better and giving the better version for free takes the number one spot and all of the sudden gets more people wanting the drug and all the cool rap artists wants to be the next smiley face on the dope bag that comes from Dreamthug so now Dreamthug gets cash from the Kingpin and these rappers making way more paper than MLG. The End Moral of the story: Unless one leauge has a majority of the market or some how all leagues go in to it together PPV won't be the most profitable solution for a single leauge since they will lose loads of viewers if there are free alternatives. Hell if we see Dreamhack, MLG, ESL and GSL merge into Global Major Dream eSports League we might have a real UFC thing going on. I might be wrong but I see eSport as a whole new era of how we provide content and we shouldn't try to change the way we are progressing cause if we suddenly take a leap of faith we might destroy everything we worked for. I think in the long run, since the world is the audience - advertising with free content will be the way to go. And I don't mean that we shouldn't pay for shit, I just mean that the games should be free to watch. If you wanna sell extra content be my guest, hell that would probably be a way better solution oh wait, thats already happening. TL;DR no need to change things, just keep on growing  <3 xoxo | ||
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Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
Put quite simply, the foreign community has a lot of people who AREN'T Korean (or even asian), and want to see white/black/hispanic/whatever players doing well and winning at the highest level of competition. If it turns into a Korean vs Korean slugfest 100% of the time, many will gradually lose interest. Not everyone is a former BW fan who is used to watching the 'best foreigners' get constantly beat up by B-team Koreans. Right now SC2 money is flowing primarily from non-Korean spectators into Korean pockets. I'm sorry, but the reality is that isn't sustainable (unless Korea themselves takes a liking to SC2 and keeps it afloat by themselves, which by all indications they won't). We had this same 'problem' in BW, the foreign scene was mostly a joke and our foreign tournaments explicitly banned Koreans so that whitey could win from time to time. I never took it seriously or cared much about it, although of course I would cheer for Idra and Ret when they tried to break in. Difference in BW was that it was always by Koreans for Koreans, so lack of foreign support didn't matter. Us foreign BW fans have always just been happy to watch BW played at the highest level, a foreigner breaking in was a nice dream but not a necessity. On the other hand, SC2 is dead in the water without foreigners getting their act together. So you can go on and on about business models and ESPORTS!!!!!, but at the end of the day whitey needs to step it up or you're finished. Foreign players have no decade-long headstart to blame for their failures this time, and the GSL bends over backwards to affirmative-action foreigners into the tournament with predictably hilarious results. | ||
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
Sure maybe your favorite player happens to be white but if you're rooting for him just because of his skin tone there might be something wrong with you. | ||
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quantumslip
United States188 Posts
On February 10 2012 08:21 LunaSea wrote: I'm not here to be critical about Sundance but face it, after one year we are still askings ourselves why MLG has extended series event when most of the progamers are against it since the beginning, prize pool went down, there are still complaints about the stream's lag or production quality and the cancelled all the show they had (Sotg, F*ck Slasher, ...etc). I don't think that Sundance is "against the growth" of starcraft obviously but I think that the way he is taking, which is the "business" way is a bad way to improve eSports. If you look at Facebook (the example was taking in this thread before) they have ad revenues and only know, after 6 years or so of existence they're going to go public. I'll give you the extended series part, though I don't know what the pro-gamers actually think about it (is there a poll/article about that?) I personally don't like it, but that's besides the point. -Stream lag? Well we know MLG Dallas was bad, but the events past that didn't suffer that much from stream lag as far as I know. If he is in it just for the money Sundance would be sure to make sure the stream is running smooth because bad stream = no money. -Production quality? Sure earlier MLGs had a lot of crowd shots and downtime, but look at the last couple of MLGs - quad "BETA" stream, filler content, etc. They have listened to our feedback. -Canceling stuff? Well in the end, MLG has to make money to survive, and part of that is refocusing on what's important. Note that SOTG was not canceled, but went back to being independent. -Prize pool went down? What are you smoking? Don't confuse the Arena prize pool with the Championship prize pool; combined, the total for all events is going to be higher in 2012 than in 2011. -Facebook? For every facebook that's out there, there's many more than failed. In between there are companies that have made it (but not blown up ala Google), those that are struggling, etc. Not everyone can be like facebook. Look, I'm up for constructive criticism. But you cannot ignore the facts... | ||
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LunaSea
Luxembourg369 Posts
On February 10 2012 08:57 venage wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Alright this is the PPV model explained: Imagine a drug kingpin sitting on a throne with his mighty swagger thinking about how he can get this new dope ass drug (called idraphine, naniweed, hukstacy or whatever) out on the market. So he gets a couple of drug dealers and tells them to give away a small dose to as many people as possible and he'll pay the dealers a small fee per guy who takes the drug. Now some of the dealers manage to find a huge audience Pimpin'Nine, Dreamthug, Great Swag Lamarr and Mighty Lil' Gangsta is giving this new drug away like its viagra in the common elderly home brothel. However there are some drug dealers who doesn't show the same efficiency, mostly because a lot of people prefer the older drugs or really prefer the other more swagger looking drug dealers. Lil'Nassel and his gang is not up to par with the top notch guys but they still hang on. So one day the kingpin says "you dawgs, its time to get this bitch crackin', feel free to charge whatever you wan't for this awesome drug. Hell I'll still pay you if you just give it away for free cause I'm such a nice guy and all... you dig?" All the lil' thugs start planning how to earn money of this great drug and some try to just make an improved version that gets you more pixels during the trip while others just add a smiley face on a couple of bags and offer to sell them for just a buck. The junkies react variously to this, some people think its great that the drug dealers are so engaged and giving to the community so they gladly pay a dollar for that smiley face on the dope bag. Others just prefer to get it free, like they always has. Time goes by and Mighty Lil' Gangstah gets a genius idea "Yo, why have I been a fool and giving this dope ass drug away for free? I'll just make mo of this better version and only sell that for mo money. Playah!". The top dealers are divided about the idea and some choose to go on with this new platform while others choose to go on with the same old drug dealing ways. So what happens next? There's a slightly better version of a drug thats free being dealt for normal drug prices. The major dealers must have an exceptional market share if they where to pull of this brave stunt or else their piece of pie would be split among the dealers who currently is giving it away for free. But the big dealers don't have to sell as much as they gave away before in order to make the same amount of cash, they only need a part of the junkies to keep paying in order to stay in good shape. So Major League Gaming oh I meant Mighty Lil' Gangstah loses its first place spot as a market leader and Dreamthug who's been making the drug better and giving the better version for free takes the number one spot and all of the sudden gets more people wanting the drug and all the cool rap artists wants to be the next smiley face on the dope bag that comes from Dreamthug so now Dreamthug gets cash from the Kingpin and these rappers making way more paper than MLG. The End Moral of the story: Unless one leauge has a majority of the market or some how all leagues go in to it together PPV won't be the most profitable solution for a single leauge since they will lose loads of viewers if there are free alternatives. Hell if we see Dreamhack, MLG, ESL and GSL merge into Global Major Dream eSports League we might have a real UFC thing going on. I might be wrong but I see eSport as a whole new era of how we provide content and we shouldn't try to change the way we are progressing cause if we suddenly take a leap of faith we might destroy everything we worked for. I think in the long run, since the world is the audience - advertising with free content will be the way to go. And I don't mean that we shouldn't pay for shit, I just mean that the games should be free to watch. If you wanna sell extra content be my guest, hell that would probably be a way better solution oh wait, thats already happening. TL;DR no need to change things, just keep on growing <3 xoxoAwesome post ! =D I want a bag of those Dreamthug smiley face bags ! ^^ This should be on the front page ! xD | ||
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Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
On February 10 2012 09:14 OuchyDathurts wrote: I don't think its a white vs asian thing. More of an underdog vs top dog thing. Koreans are clearly the top dogs and everyone likes rooting for the underdog. Sure maybe your favorite player happens to be white but if you're rooting for him just because of his skin tone there might be something wrong with you. I don't think you fully read the post (I'm a goddamn BW fan, all my favorite players are Korean), but your response furthers my point. You just explicitly called Koreans the 'top dogs' vs non-Koreans, the 'underdogs'. Same thing, more politically correct wording. Edit: And oh, in the extremely rare situations where a white guy is facing a Korean novice he is favored against, how many of you are rooting for the 'underdog'? That's what I thought. | ||
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
On February 10 2012 09:18 Hinanawi wrote: I don't think you fully read the post (I'm a goddamn BW fan, all my favorite players are Korean), but your response furthers my point. You just explicitly called Koreans the 'top dogs' vs non-Koreans, the 'underdogs'. Same thing, more politically correct wording. But you're making it about "whitey". What if all the best players were from Germany? The skin color has nothing to do with it. It happens that the best players are from Korea. The best players of different genres come from different sections of the globe. If you want to be the best you have to beat the best. You seem to be using skin color as a gauge, I'm using a country. | ||
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Bijan
United States286 Posts
If MLG had a studio, American teams would start establishing team houses in that area. A culture of esports would grow around that studio and the surrounding towns. Aspiring players would have a place to pack up and go to put it all on the line like idra did when he first moved to Korea. On a related note, I believe this needs to happen if foreigners want ti ever reach the level of skill Korea has achieved. Localization is very important. | ||
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NachiMe
250 Posts
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On February 10 2012 08:50 Doodsmack wrote: lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out. LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point. | ||
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Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
On February 10 2012 09:25 OuchyDathurts wrote: The skin color has nothing to do with it. It happens that the best players are from Korea. I'm sorry, but that's so naive I don't know what to say. You also seem to be confusing what I think is the reality of the situation with what my personal opinion is. There is a general tendency in many people to want to see people who look like them do well. It's the reason why when a promising asian basketball player is up-and-coming, he gets a ton of support from the asian community. As a BW fan obviously I don't give a fuck, but read between the lines in some of the posts in this thread and you'll see that many people do. Think it over, I'll be back in an hour or so. | ||
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Vildhjarta
Sweden126 Posts
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Genie1
Canada333 Posts
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LunaSea
Luxembourg369 Posts
On February 10 2012 09:15 quantumslip wrote: ... refocusing on what's important. Note that SOTG was not canceled, but went back to being independent. That's just another way of saying cancelling. Being "indepdent" just means MLG isn't paying anything related to SOTG which is the same as canceling the show and recreating another one. On February 10 2012 09:15 quantumslip wrote:[spoiler] -Facebook? For every facebook that's out there, there's many more than failed. In between there are companies that have made it (but not blown up ala Google), those that are struggling, etc. Not everyone can be like facebook. Trues but how do you want eSports to fail (not that I want this top happen ^^) : 1) - MLG and other events charge so much that slowly people get disinterested in overpriced content and change to other activities / hobbys ? The End. or 2) - eSport monetizes too late in the process and not by punishing their customers for the free content and dies of it ? The End. | ||
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yawnoC
United States3704 Posts
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LunaSea
Luxembourg369 Posts
On February 10 2012 09:32 Vildhjarta wrote: I love to watch all the big tournies but if they charge for somewhat decent quality (such as 480) I just don't watch. Agreed. If it was 1080p+ with Day[9] and Tastosis casting Flash vs MMA Bo7 in Starcraft II for 100k $ I would begin considering to pay for streaming. | ||
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