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On February 10 2012 09:30 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 08:50 Doodsmack wrote:On February 10 2012 08:28 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 07:59 xSixGeneralHan wrote:On February 10 2012 07:54 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote:
MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head. I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM. Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket). I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there. I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol. These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing) But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else. lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out. LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first  Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point.
You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out .
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If every major media in sc2 starts charging for subscriptions, viewers will have to start making choices, just gonna read between the lines here but this guy seems like he wants to have a big war with the higher end tournys so that his brand can get viewers in terms of layovers.It wont be rosy between ipl eg nasl even esl and mlg, they are all different brands.Not so sure esports is ready for this yet, when gotfrag went premium, that started being the downfall of that site. At this point i think more exposure and more time will potentially allow for this kind of process but going into subscription without a monopoly or a said agreement between all the major companies will just cause for chaos, if the companies really want this to go through they need to talk within themselves before they can say hey community help us, don`t rush into something until every rock has been turned and until you know it will be done right, we dont need more fuckups in esports, it takes a moment to have a dream, a bit longer for it to become reality!
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On February 10 2012 09:31 Hinanawi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 09:25 OuchyDathurts wrote:On February 10 2012 09:18 Hinanawi wrote:On February 10 2012 09:14 OuchyDathurts wrote:
I don't think its a white vs asian thing. More of an underdog vs top dog thing. Koreans are clearly the top dogs and everyone likes rooting for the underdog.
Sure maybe your favorite player happens to be white but if you're rooting for him just because of his skin tone there might be something wrong with you. I don't think you fully read the post (I'm a goddamn BW fan, all my favorite players are Korean), but your response furthers my point. You just explicitly called Koreans the 'top dogs' vs non-Koreans, the 'underdogs'. Same thing, more politically correct wording. The skin color has nothing to do with it. It happens that the best players are from Korea. I'm sorry, but that's so naive I don't know what to say. You also seem to be confusing what I think is the reality of the situation with what my personal opinion is. There is a general tendency in many people to want to see people who look like them do well. It's the reason why when a promising asian basketball player is up-and-coming, he gets a ton of support from the asian community. As a BW fan obviously I don't give a fuck, but read between the lines in some of the posts in this thread and you'll see that many people do. Think it over, I'll be back in an hour or so.
I've never looked at an athlete (or actor or any celebrity for that matter) and though "God, I hope he does well since he looks like me!" I guess a lot of people have a lot of stupid reasons for liking who they like. I think liking someone purely based on their likeness to ones self is an incredibly shallow is stupid reason. My favorite player in the NFL is Ray Lewis, I'm certainly not a large, intimidating black man. I like him because he goes out there, leads his team, and plays the game the way I think it should be played. When he hits you you're going to know it.
I think there is something to liking "your team" if you come from a certain place. I'm from Minnesota so I'll always be a Vikings fan (as much as it pains me sometimes). You might like Idra because he's from America or Naniwa because he's Swedish. I don't really see anything wrong with that since its sort of rooting for the "home team" so to speak. But I certainly see something wrong with liking a player solely based on the color they shot out of the womb as. But, as I said, people have really stupid reasons for liking things sometimes.
PS: I know that Magic Johnson and Larry Bird saved the NBA, mostly because they were the best players at the time and it had the white vs black dichotomy. I just think that's a fucked reason to cheer for a player/team. HBO's documentary "Magic & Bird: A courtship of Rivals" is pretty awesome.
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Hey this thread is very interesting I hope people in the industry continue to post about this. It made me think about a couple things so I want to ask about them
1) Are teams like EG sustainable and making money? Have sustainable tournaments is the most important thing but the teams are 2nd most important and how would a PPV model affect them? It would mean less people watching the tournaments (don't say everyone will buy they won't) so that means less exposure and ROI to team sponsors and teams depend on those sponsors getting a ROI right? Just make sure that the PPV model makes all parts sustainable not just tournaments.
2) Whats going on with the sustainability of the fighting game community right now? They have a bunch of LAN tournaments and free streams to watch those tournaments so are they also in a bubble or are they doing something right? Evo is a big one and it has lasted 10 years. They can't even really have a big online tournament so sc2 has an advantage there.
3) Can the tournaments cut costs if they all agree to do it at once so none of them look inferior? Would it be possible for them to all go to the true level they should be and become sustainable? Less prize money, don't pay a caster 20 000 for one event, simpler and cheap production to focus on just streaming the games and not looking super professional? (like a fighting game tournament)
Also the people who posted about agdq making 150 000 and that got me thinking that foreign tournaments should try copying what they did with donation incentives before going to PPV where they advertise on stream when we reach x amount of donations/subscriptions to the tournament you will get to see y. And just keep setting a bunch of new goals over the weekend.
Some incentives could be interviews, idra talking balance and bad players, showmatches, competitive or funday monday condition or custom game showmatches (sc2 broodwar for nostalgia money!) , bidding wars for which game to stream and who to cast it or who plays in the showmatches with what condition.
And then if someone donates more then x it counts as a subscription and they get HD and maybe even have more incentives like a chance for signed merchandise or stream shoutouts or player coaching lessons to people who pay even higher.
Seems like it would be neat.
Also blizzard should stopping hurting esports with the tournament fees they should be happy that someone wants to lose money advertising their game not make them lose even more and fail faster. They can change back if the tournaments ever do start making lots of money.
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For myself its pretty simple, GSL provides as much content as I could ever watch given how limited my free time is and they provide easily accessible HQ VODs that are put up almost instantly. I pay for GSL because it offers a huge amount of quality entertainment for the price. If foreign tournaments want to charge like GSL does they'll need to offer a comparable experience. The few MLGs I've watched weren't even remotely close in quality (or quantity) and if I'm going to pay to watch the mostly B level players that MLG attracts then the overall production environment would need to be significantly better than what the GSL offers not worse.
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Comparing MLG-UFC is a joke, you can't put yourself on par with a company that has over 500 employees. And puts on an event almost every week, with huge production value. Where as, the main reason I dont watch NASL GSL etc etc, is because they make you pay for the HD, or you get complete unwatchable shit. MLG, isn't nearly big enough to be charging anything w/o a free stream. They would lose so much in general.
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On February 10 2012 10:06 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 09:30 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 08:50 Doodsmack wrote:On February 10 2012 08:28 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 07:59 xSixGeneralHan wrote:On February 10 2012 07:54 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote:
MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head. I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM. Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket). I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there. I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol. These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing) But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else. lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out. LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point. You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out .
Who gives a shit? All those things don't influence my decision in the slightest.
When I'm faced with the decision whether or not to buy a product, I evaluate a lot of things. None of them, however, include how easy or difficult it is for the company to produce the product.
I'll buy stuff that I deem worth my dough, if you lack the means to produce shit worth my dough, tough luck.
In a previous post I said that I would spare you guys a Soviet Russia reference, but I believe some of you just don't understand what capitalism is about (hint: it's not fairness)
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Jumping from page 1 to 29 is always an experience.....I believe lots of services (MLG/NASL) tried the "pay for resolution" strategy and no one cared enough to waste their money when the free streams were good enough. Watching good Starcraft isn't about the graphics-it's about the stories and strategies that the players/games tell. Offer premium services that people give a damn about and you'll get people to pay.
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On February 10 2012 10:37 SACtheXchng wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 10:06 Doodsmack wrote:On February 10 2012 09:30 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 08:50 Doodsmack wrote:On February 10 2012 08:28 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 07:59 xSixGeneralHan wrote:On February 10 2012 07:54 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote:
MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head. I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM. Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket). I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there. I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol. These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing) But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else. lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out. LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point. You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out . Who gives a shit? All those things don't influence my decision in the slightest. When I'm faced with the decision whether or not to buy a product, I evaluate a lot of things. None of them, however, include how easy or difficult it is for the company to produce the product. I'll buy stuff that I deem worth my dough, if you lack the means to produce shit worth my dough, tough luck. In a previous post I said that I would spare you guys a Soviet Russia reference, but I believe some of you just don't understand what capitalism is about (hint: it's not fairness)
This has strayed so far from the real topic.
No one cares what you spend your money on, or at least they shouldn't. The point is that in order for the larger scale tournaments to stick around, they will have to start charging a certain amount in some manner, because free play / ad revenue / sponsorships (and this has been confirmed by the industry guys in this thread) just don't cover the costs to operate. They operate at a loss.
So go ahead and don't spend your money, it's a free country. You aren't under any onus to support the esports industry. Just know that if that is the community concensus, these things will go away. To some people that's a big deal, to others it is not, and those are both fair opinions
Personally I really dig having IPL and MLG content, and I give them money because I want them to stick around. But that's my choice.
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On February 10 2012 10:43 Alacast wrote:
Jumping from page 1 to 29 is always an experience.....I believe lots of services (MLG/NASL) tried the "pay for resolution" strategy and no one cared enough to waste their money when the free streams were good enough. Watching good Starcraft isn't about the graphics-it's about the stories and strategies that the players/games tell. Offer premium services that people give a damn about and you'll get people to pay.
like a caster couch on a premium stream perhaps
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Yeah, that VVV guy has no clue what he's talking about. MLG, IPL, and IEM all charge for high quality streams plus extra content. Ad-supported free stream supplemented by subscription-based high quality stream is the way to go.
Esports is not at the point yet where we can get rid of free streams. If we ever reach the point where we get 1M+ free viewers consistently then yeah, we can look at pure PPV. But we're nowhere near that level yet.
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On February 10 2012 10:37 SACtheXchng wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 10:06 Doodsmack wrote:On February 10 2012 09:30 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 08:50 Doodsmack wrote:On February 10 2012 08:28 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 07:59 xSixGeneralHan wrote:On February 10 2012 07:54 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote:
MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head. I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM. Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket). I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there. I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol. These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing) But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else. lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out. LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point. You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out . Who gives a shit? All those things don't influence my decision in the slightest. When I'm faced with the decision whether or not to buy a product, I evaluate a lot of things. None of them, however, include how easy or difficult it is for the company to produce the product. I'll buy stuff that I deem worth my dough, if you lack the means to produce shit worth my dough, tough luck. In a previous post I said that I would spare you guys a Soviet Russia reference, but I believe some of you just don't understand what capitalism is about (hint: it's not fairness)
That's fine if you think professional SC2 in the west should die if it can't cut it in a capitalist world (because as you know, that's what will happen if the majority take your stance), but some of us want to pay to make it sustainable.
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On February 10 2012 10:52 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 10:37 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 10 2012 10:06 Doodsmack wrote:On February 10 2012 09:30 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 08:50 Doodsmack wrote:On February 10 2012 08:28 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 07:59 xSixGeneralHan wrote:On February 10 2012 07:54 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote:
MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head. I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM. Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket). I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there. I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol. These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing) But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else. lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out. LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point. You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out . Who gives a shit? All those things don't influence my decision in the slightest. When I'm faced with the decision whether or not to buy a product, I evaluate a lot of things. None of them, however, include how easy or difficult it is for the company to produce the product. I'll buy stuff that I deem worth my dough, if you lack the means to produce shit worth my dough, tough luck. In a previous post I said that I would spare you guys a Soviet Russia reference, but I believe some of you just don't understand what capitalism is about (hint: it's not fairness) That's fine if you think professional SC2 in the west should die if it can't cut it in a capitalist world (because as you know, that's what will happen if the majority take your stance), but some of us want to pay to make it sustainable.
Then congratulations, you're not running a business, you're running a charity.
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On February 10 2012 10:57 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 10:52 Doodsmack wrote:On February 10 2012 10:37 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 10 2012 10:06 Doodsmack wrote:On February 10 2012 09:30 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 08:50 Doodsmack wrote:On February 10 2012 08:28 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 07:59 xSixGeneralHan wrote:On February 10 2012 07:54 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote:
MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head. I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM. Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket). I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there. I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol. These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing) But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else. lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out. LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point. You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out . Who gives a shit? All those things don't influence my decision in the slightest. When I'm faced with the decision whether or not to buy a product, I evaluate a lot of things. None of them, however, include how easy or difficult it is for the company to produce the product. I'll buy stuff that I deem worth my dough, if you lack the means to produce shit worth my dough, tough luck. In a previous post I said that I would spare you guys a Soviet Russia reference, but I believe some of you just don't understand what capitalism is about (hint: it's not fairness) That's fine if you think professional SC2 in the west should die if it can't cut it in a capitalist world (because as you know, that's what will happen if the majority take your stance), but some of us want to pay to make it sustainable. Then congratulations, you're not running a business, you're running a charity.
Funny how many people are in this thread purely to shit on the idea of paying for tournaments. If you're not interested in the discussion of how to make professional SC2 sustainable financially, there's really no point in posting in this thread.
On another note, you should look up the definition of the word charity. If you're paying a company for providing you a service, it's not charity .
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ESports will never be pure PPV, that's just stupid. For something to be successful as PPV-only, you have to have a monopoly on the content and a cult-like following. And even then, it's not usually the right decision.
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On February 10 2012 10:43 Alacast wrote:
Jumping from page 1 to 29 is always an experience.....I believe lots of services (MLG/NASL) tried the "pay for resolution" strategy and no one cared enough to waste their money when the free streams were good enough. Watching good Starcraft isn't about the graphics-it's about the stories and strategies that the players/games tell. Offer premium services that people give a damn about and you'll get people to pay.
Absolutely. Too many people confuse "high quality stream" with "high resolution".
I gave IGN money for IPL3 because its worth it for the extra content. I could care less about resolution, which is why I haven't paid for NASL IEM MLG yet.
Although I am considering about paying for MLG now that they are offering extra streams. It depends upon how much they improve their production. And whether or not they get rid of that stupid extended series rule.
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On February 10 2012 11:00 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 10:57 WolfintheSheep wrote:On February 10 2012 10:52 Doodsmack wrote:On February 10 2012 10:37 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 10 2012 10:06 Doodsmack wrote:On February 10 2012 09:30 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 08:50 Doodsmack wrote:On February 10 2012 08:28 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 07:59 xSixGeneralHan wrote:On February 10 2012 07:54 ReachTheSky wrote:
[quote]
I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM. Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket). I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there. I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol. These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing) But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else. lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out. LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point. You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out . Who gives a shit? All those things don't influence my decision in the slightest. When I'm faced with the decision whether or not to buy a product, I evaluate a lot of things. None of them, however, include how easy or difficult it is for the company to produce the product. I'll buy stuff that I deem worth my dough, if you lack the means to produce shit worth my dough, tough luck. In a previous post I said that I would spare you guys a Soviet Russia reference, but I believe some of you just don't understand what capitalism is about (hint: it's not fairness) That's fine if you think professional SC2 in the west should die if it can't cut it in a capitalist world (because as you know, that's what will happen if the majority take your stance), but some of us want to pay to make it sustainable. Then congratulations, you're not running a business, you're running a charity. Funny how many people are in this thread purely to shit on the idea of paying for tournaments. If you're not interested in the discussion of how to make professional SC2 sustainable financially, there's really no point in posting in this thread. On another note, you should look up the definition of the word charity. If you're paying a company for providing you a service, it's not charity .
I've already posted on this thread, and I've already stated that PPV tournament streams will cause a swift and unavoidable end to any tournament that isn't GSL and possibly MLG, and will stunt the growth of any fanbase you're trying to grow.
If you want to be profitable, especially if you're not the biggest tournament around, then you need free streams to draw in the crowds, and rely on well marketed and solid peripheral products and services that people want to pay for.
And as for the charity thing, have you not heard of bake sales? School fundraisers? Charity lotteries? If you're relying on the good will of people to make you money, instead of having goods and services that are worth paying for, then you're a business out for charity donations.
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On February 10 2012 11:00 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 10:57 WolfintheSheep wrote:On February 10 2012 10:52 Doodsmack wrote:On February 10 2012 10:37 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 10 2012 10:06 Doodsmack wrote:On February 10 2012 09:30 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 08:50 Doodsmack wrote:On February 10 2012 08:28 ReachTheSky wrote:On February 10 2012 07:59 xSixGeneralHan wrote:On February 10 2012 07:54 ReachTheSky wrote:
[quote]
I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM. Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket). I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there. I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol. These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing) But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else. lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out. LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point. You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out . Who gives a shit? All those things don't influence my decision in the slightest. When I'm faced with the decision whether or not to buy a product, I evaluate a lot of things. None of them, however, include how easy or difficult it is for the company to produce the product. I'll buy stuff that I deem worth my dough, if you lack the means to produce shit worth my dough, tough luck. In a previous post I said that I would spare you guys a Soviet Russia reference, but I believe some of you just don't understand what capitalism is about (hint: it's not fairness) That's fine if you think professional SC2 in the west should die if it can't cut it in a capitalist world (because as you know, that's what will happen if the majority take your stance), but some of us want to pay to make it sustainable. Then congratulations, you're not running a business, you're running a charity. Funny how many people are in this thread purely to shit on the idea of paying for tournaments. If you're not interested in the discussion of how to make professional SC2 sustainable financially, there's really no point in posting in this thread. On another note, you should look up the definition of the word charity. If you're paying a company for providing you a service, it's not charity .
"If you don't share my opinion, there's really no point in posting in this thread."
Seriously though, and in an honest attempt to save EEEEEEEEESPOOOOORRRTS from its doom.
Don't go the PPV route. It'll be your death.
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It's fascinating, we live in a generation of unprecedented entitlement. The idea of "Free exchange of information" is talked about like it's the 11th amendment, when all it really means is "I'm used to getting shit for free, so anything that's contrary to that is nazi germany." One way or another, we'll have to get used to the idea that we have to pay for things we enjoy...
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On February 10 2012 10:50 RoboBob wrote:
Yeah, that VVV guy has no clue what he's talking about.
Yes, I'm sure a guy who runs a very successful gaming organization has no idea what he's on about, while you, a guy on a forum, have all the answers.
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EPT
