EPTMonetizing Starcraft / LordJerith rant. Thoughts? - Page 27
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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LunaSea
Luxembourg369 Posts
On February 10 2012 08:12 quantumslip wrote: I'm sorry but if you take one answer to a question over what he has done for SC2 this year, you are clearly an ignorant person. Actions speak louder than words, and it is clear that he is committed to improving SC2 as an e-sport based on what has happened this past year and what is to come this year. I'm not here to be critical about Sundance but face it, after one year we are still askings ourselves why MLG has extended series event when most of the progamers are against it since the beginning, prize pool went down, there are still complaints about the stream's lag or production quality and the cancelled all the show they had (Sotg, F*ck Slasher, ...etc). I don't think that Sundance is "against the growth" of starcraft obviously but I think that the way he is taking, which is the "business" way is a bad way to improve eSports. If you look at Facebook (the example was taking in this thread before) they have ad revenues and only know, after 6 years or so of existence they're going to go public. | ||
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L3gendary
Canada1470 Posts
So where's all this money coming from? Are all these people who are putting money into this just stupid? Or is this just about making sure everyone involved can live comfortably off esports at the spectator's expense? What we need is consolidation, a governing body, and less games but higher quality content. That's how you'll see growth. Not by putting the game behind a paywall and milking the current fans while turning away new ones. | ||
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Eventine
United States307 Posts
On February 10 2012 08:13 theBizness wrote: I think Chill summed it up pretty well on the first page. If the community cannot support a more business oriented approach, gaming was never destined to be more than a niche market. There is nothing wrong with eSports being focused on a niche market. I have my doubts that eSports will ever be more than a niche arena. Gaming may have become more prevalent with social gaming, but the complexity of and the difficulty of the games makes it more difficult for casual non gamers to watch. My concern is will eSports in the long run make enough profit to support itself. Perhaps we don't have the best demographics, but if these tournaments and sponsors can't make enough money to be self sufficient, I worry for the future of eSports. | ||
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Hrrrrm
United States2081 Posts
On February 10 2012 08:20 Bagration wrote: PPV would kill the scene. People would be forced to choose between tournaments, and viewership is fragmented, and leagues like NASL would probably be wiped out. Now, PPV would not be as bad if all the major tournaments could band together and charge a 1 time fee. I would be pissed if I had to pay it, but I would still do it. Hopefully that does not happen though... That would never happen simply because some leagues would think they are worth more than others in terms of viewership/draw and want more of the percentage. Greed basically kills that idea from the get go. | ||
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caradoc
Canada3022 Posts
On February 10 2012 07:57 xSixGeneralHan wrote: Yes I do understand those subtle differences sure, but intel doesn't need to support dream hack for gamers to know they are a good product. We KNOW intel, we already buy their stuff. Your WCG proves my point, its a terrible model. Each country is left to fend for their own sponsors etc and then something like 2011 happens and samsung pulls the travel costs from SC2 players. If WCG was well-run, it wouldn't be a giant crapshoot. Good models of business feed into that, all cause and effect. Granted the finals are always nice!!! Yeah, WCG has it's problems, that's something we can all agree on. We love em and we're infuriated by them too... Intel though, the reason we perceive them as having a good product is precisely because of intiatives like dreamhack that increase brand equity-- so long as dreamhack continues to provide an excellent product (which it will given its history and the fact that its product is very specifically catered to be attractive to sponsors such as intel, whether intel has a hand in directly shaping it or not) intel will continue to cultivate its relationship with dreamhack. Dreamhack arguably has more event costs than something like MLG, but they're able to attract enough sponsorship dollars to make them a completely viable operation solely based on this as revenue. That said though, dreamhack is a festival with a tournament component, it does a lot more than MLG does, and I dont think it's going to morph into the defacto sc2 league because of this. (Though I could be pleasantly surprised!) That said, I sometimes wonder if this type of model is something esports needs to expand upon. I mean, if you look at pro sports, a lot of brands are synonymous with what they sponsor-- adidas isn't a clothing brand, it's a sports brand. etc etc etc. I watch soccer, but I've never directly paid for anything soccer related. Same goes with hockey, though in the past I've forked over 60$ to watch a game or two in an arena. Peripheral companies are getting to that point, Razer, steelseries etc, but they won't take it the whole way I think. People in the thread are saying sponsors aren't making money, but it's pretty hard for a company like kingston hyper X or intel to quantify the sales that result from sponsoring an sc2 league-- its more about building a corporate image in those cases, and it would be really hard to quantify aside from estimating views and impact. | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
If a league were to go fully PPV they would need to have a trial run to prove to people that their production value was worth the money. For some reason everyone in the SC2 community seems to be ludicrously hesistant to ever pay money for anything. | ||
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LunaSea
Luxembourg369 Posts
On February 10 2012 08:15 theBizness wrote: I'd prefer for him to run the business better rather than learning build orders. It's not like he's a commentator... Again, he hasn't to be a pro or learn build orders but the fact that the guy doesn't know a single (basic) thing about the game just makes me doubt about his competence to run his events and make them grow. And like I said in my previous post, we still have extended series after one year of progamers complaining about it... | ||
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shindigs
United States4795 Posts
On February 10 2012 08:21 L3gendary wrote: Someone really needs to convince me of this "everyone is losing money in esports crap". There's tournaments everyday offering some kind of prize pool ranging from hundreds of dollars to thousands to tens of thousands up to ~100k. We have more leagues than can be counted. MLG, GSL, ESL, NASL, IPL, DH, HSC are the big ones then we have a bunch of smaller ones or online only tournaments like KSL, korean weekly, playhem, some french tournament called iron squid i just learned about, TSL, shoutcraft invitational, and all with prize money on the line. Top 30 players are making good money, some casters getting 20k per event... So where's all this money coming from? Are all these people who are putting money into this just stupid? Or is this just about making sure everyone involved can live comfortably off esports at the spectator's expense? What we need is consolidation, a governing body, and less games but higher quality content. That's how you'll see growth. Not by putting the game behind a paywall and milking the current fans while turning away new ones. lol, anytime a league tries to make money the fans revolt because they're not getting it for free. this is absolutely horrible for the sustaining a profitable league. the money comes from sponsors and investors who see the potential in each league, and they just dump money into this new ESPORTS phenomenon thinking it will pay off later. the key is making it pay off so we can get more money flowing back into the competitive scene. so far, I don't think any league has seen any major payoffs other than a bunch of public support. but this support is through free content, what happens they have to confront the fans with the reality that they need to make money? | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On February 10 2012 07:59 xSixGeneralHan wrote: Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket). I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there. I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol. These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing) But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else. | ||
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UmiNotsuki
United States633 Posts
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
On February 09 2012 14:46 vVvParadise wrote: Please share your feedback here. From what I can tell, this is a subject that MLG looks to be watching closely. We need to speak up and share our concerns, questions, and feelings. Look forward to your feedback. Since the OP was asking for feedback, here it is: if MLG charged for PPV, I wouldn't watch it. The only tournament that I'd pay to watch if it was subscription-only is GSL, as I did in the past, but I most likely wouldn't pay for all seasons. There is way, waaaaay too much content going right now. I have no idea how a non-GSL tournament could try and get away to charging people for PPV without being swallowed by competition. The many tournaments, leagues and cups out there compete not only among themselves but with many POV streamers that usually feature better content than competitive matches with casters. Even if all sc2-related stuff agreed to charge, the potential new viewers would just stick to LOL or something. I have no idea why someone thinks that "monetize e-sports" should mean PPV. A lot of sports have survived charging nothing to TV viewers, but are making money out of live experience events, merchandising and sponsors. PPV only isn't the norm, not even close. Having free content is an amazing way to make money with everything else, since this is how you attract and keep people interested. Setting up a stream is a lot easier than it was to get TV coverage in the past, and there were events that would pay to be shown on open TV. Seize the opportunity, don't kill it. Also, I can't imagine how third-tier teams, including vVv and several others, would ever be profitable, regardless of the business model adopted by the industry. | ||
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Duravi
United States1205 Posts
On February 10 2012 07:27 Chill wrote: It was actually the opposite - people shouldn't give money to companies unless they think their products are worth it. Don't use your money to support esports or else you've created a bubble. I agree with this 100% assuming I understand you correctly, and this is one thing that frustrates me to no end about the community. Everyone acts like if you give money to a tournament with crappy production like NASL you are "helping esports" and by proxy helping every tournament. In my opinion by doing so you are just temporarily sustaining poorly run or thought out companies that will lose interest in the long run and crash. Your justification for purchasing something shouldn't be helping "esports", it should be paying a company for a good quality product, something I have no problem paying GSL for every month. I am sick of the attitude that people are "learning" or "new" or "whatever excuse ESL has now" and we should cut them slack and still buy their products to support esports. | ||
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werynais
Germany1780 Posts
That means i would definately not watch it if it would not be free. | ||
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Thombur
95 Posts
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SACtheXchng
168 Posts
On February 10 2012 08:28 shindigs wrote: lol, anytime a league tries to make money the fans revolt because they're not getting it for free. this is absolutely horrible for the sustaining a profitable league. the money comes from sponsors and investors who see the potential in each league, and they just dump money into this new ESPORTS phenomenon thinking it will pay off later. the key is making it pay off so we can get more money flowing back into the competitive scene. so far, I don't think any league has seen any major payoffs other than a bunch of public support. but this support is through free content, what happens they have to confront the fans with the reality that they need to make money? For the Nth time: No one is revolting. If a league decides to charge $1,000 per BO3 series, that's well within their rights. I will laugh at them and obviously not buy, but I won't revolt. The people in here who are arguing against a PPV system are doing so, because they believe that our beloved and capitalized "ESPORTS" would be worse off with it. Mainly because most of us would simply stop watching, and you know what that meant? Less viewers overall, i.e. not as much subscription money as you had hoped for, plus less people exposed to ads, i.e. not as much ad revenue as you had hoped for. None of you guys believe, you'd get your PPVs ad-free, do you? | ||
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Scribble
2077 Posts
On February 10 2012 08:34 Thombur wrote: The way esports work atm paying to see tournaments would feel like having to pay extra money for each tv-series you want to watch on your TV. Would you pay, say, $150 a year if Twitch partnered with all the majors and packaged those tournaments into one bundle? In other words, if you had Option A) Pay $150 or $12.50 / year for the Twitch bundle, including MLG, IPL, Gom, NASL, IEM, Dreamhack etc. Option B) Not watch anything except smaller tournaments/weeklies/dailies that exist outside of this proposed bundle Which would you choose? Trying to think along the lines of cable packages here. Don't focus too hard on the specific 150 number, but more on the idea of it. | ||
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
I know esports is its own monster. It's born of the internet and gaming age. It has a very short history and a different community to that of traditional sports. But while posing new and interesting challenges gaming has something pretty amazing going for it in that it transcends almost every grouping of people. Rich, poor, black, white, man, woman, jock, nerd, casual, hardcore, America, Asia, Europe, people all over like gaming. It will also become more prevalent as time goes on. Your grandpa probably wont ever play a video game, but when you're a grandpa you either might still or will have grown up playing them and understanding. I fully believe that esports will never be mainstream like football. You're not going to fill 16 stadiums a week for 15 weeks (bye week), plus TV viewership off of a video game. So I think shooting for that to be the endgame is quite silly. But on some level, given the right minds behind it there is a way to make it a legitimate business. I know in professional sports there are a lot of gamers. Just a few easy ones off the top of my head you have Nik Lentz of the UFC, Chris "Warcraft" Kluwe the punter for the Minnesota vikings (NFL), even Joe Rogan the UFC announcer admits to at one time being insanely addicted to quake. I'm probably thinking a little outside of the box, but maybe a bigwig in the esports realm could somehow use someone like that to get some insight from a higher up in a traditional sport? Maybe someone like Mark Cuban who owns the Dallas Mavericks (NBA) and made his fortune from a tech company has ideas since he'd probably have more of a pulse on the internet than some ancient person like Jerry Jones? I dunno, just throwing shit out there. But I do believe on some level, with the right mindset (not trying to rape every cent out of the scene), and the right group of minds thinking about it there is a plan our there that works. It's just a matter of finding it. Oh yes, even the UFC almost went under. I'm not talking about the Royce Gracie 1991 UFC that clearly did go under water till The Fertita brothers and Dana White got a hold of it. After they bought the UFC it was going to go down. If memory serves they were losing money and Dana told one of the Fertita brothers to give them it one last event. I believe it was a fight between Chuck Liddell and Randy Couture that changed everything. I saw an interview with Dana White somewhere talking about this. Was a few years ago, but basically they had this blockbuster fight that blew them up and now they're obviously on top of the world of MMA. Edit: Had to fix a few things Edit2: Forgot to add something! | ||
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Fourn
Greece227 Posts
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Cove
United States67 Posts
Happy thoughts! :D | ||
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