ZvP is pretty ill these day but I am happy to see protoss doing so well vs terran! I think a big part (not to take anything away from protosses) is that the maps favor 1-1-1 builds less and less.

I hope to see some changes in the metagame that balances ZvP even more but ATM the whole metagame is looking pretty crisp!

singul4rity

United States54 Posts

February 02 2012 15:39 GMT

#143

I would like to see international tournaments change up their map pools. The GSL has changed their pools in an effort to help change the balance whereas a lot of international tournaments are still using maps like Shattered Temple, Shakuras Plateau, Metalopolis, etc.

It would be interesting to see the international tournament numbers on more modern maps.

Felnarion

442 Posts

February 02 2012 15:39 GMT

#144

I think the "problem" in PvZ is Protoss reliance on FFE. It was solid for a while, there are a lot of creative two-base timings you can do that overrun the zerg.

But Zergs have seen all of them now. DTs, Colossi, blink stalkers, Zergs know all the timings that come off two base AND know that any zerg can hold a FFE Protoss on two base with Mutas.

It's not an imbalance, really, though Mutas are difficult to deal with. It's just a metagame shift, and Protoss needs a new opening.

Xalorian

Canada433 Posts

February 02 2012 15:39 GMT

#145

Well, Protoss are having a hard time against Zerg these days. Pretty much every ZvP is Mass Mutas and pretty much every toss are not sure how to deal with it.

I'm not sure that there is a need for a tweak yet, since this is only a single month and that there was not that much games to look at...

In two or three months, if Protoss have not figured a way to manage mass mutas ball... I will be quite surprised.

Let's see how it goes.

Cascade

Australia5405 Posts

February 02 2012 15:45 GMT

#146

On February 02 2012 23:31 Ctuchik wrote:

Show nested quote +

I will probably do just that next month. 20-80 seems like a good compromise between readability and still being able to show all the Korean data points.

30-70 is better. We dont need to see the end of the error bars for the low-statistics data from April 2011. Everything else is within 30-70.

Maybe make a bit thicker 50% line?

To make up for the low statistics in the first few months, maybe you could group feb-mar together, and april-may, to make two 2x size bins at the start. At least for korean data, internationally there are still plenty of games from the start. Now you get the feeling that balance was changing wildly those months, while it is not really statistically significant. Also they would probably fit within 30-70 nicely.

again, thanks for the graphs, they are pretty!

Big J

Austria16289 Posts

February 02 2012 15:58 GMT

#147

On February 03 2012 00:14 Excludos wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 03 2012 00:08 haffy wrote:

On February 02 2012 23:40 -_- wrote:

On February 02 2012 21:52 Big J wrote:

On February 02 2012 21:39 Excludos wrote:

On February 02 2012 21:31 rilma wrote:

On February 02 2012 18:06 jliu wrote:
Oh my gosh. Why the ZvP disparity?
edit: Nevermind see above post - probably mutas & getting better at holding 2-base all-ins.

I don't think it's that lol

it is, actually. First off a protoss going lategame vs zerg is suicide as the zerg lategame army is close to unbeatable. Even with mothership it can so easily backfire because of NP. So a lot of the good tosses have been doing 2base allins a lot, as that seems to be what has worked the most. But as Zergs generally adapt to allins over time, it, obviously, starts working less and less.

And then theres the mutalisks which, even with several stalkers and canons, can oneshot an entire mineral line when you get enough of them. And then be back to defend before lunch as the unit is incredibly fast and very strong vs stalker. Or just basetrade, and they will win most if not every single time. Even if the protoss decides to turtle up the zerg can easily take every other base on the map and be so far ahead.

The only real option for toss is scouting the mutalisks well before they arrive (or metagame by seeing spines), and be ready with blinkstalkers and canons. And even then its incredibly hard to take a third base and near impossible to take a fourth. Archons are nice, but like thors, when the mutaball gets large enough to oneshot them, you can spread them out and defend anymore. HT works well, but mutalisks are so fast its actually incredibly hard to hit a good storm. And even then you'll at most do 50% dmg to the ones you hit. At which point the muts just run away and regens.

actually those stats are not about silver leaguers who can't get thirds up against zerg, but about progamers who have thirds at the time zerg has mutalisks and about progamers who will go into exile if they ever got a mothership NPed.

furthermore hardly anything has changed in Zerg gameplay in the last month, so why did the winrates change?

Protoss can't have a safe third by the time Zerg gets Mutalisks.

I think Zerg has been doing better because 1) Zergs are getting better at Mass Muta mass spore spine play and 2) mass infestor mass broodlord and spine is a composition that is not beatable by any Protoss composition, not even carrier, mothership, templar, stalker, collosus, archon, voidray.

How can you say something like that? Do you honestly think anyone has played or watched enough of the match up to say Protoss can NEVER get a safe third. Or that NO composition can beat Zergs. Because I think your being melodramatic.

Theres a difference between "a third" and a "safe" third. Of course there are players who gets thirds. I do it in nearly every game, mutalisks or not. But that doesn't mean I don't take heavy losses in the process if the zerg players knows how to play. On top of that lategame PvZ is fairly onsesided atm with broodlord infestor composition. Mothership can work (and when it does its hilariously stupid), but for the most part zerg is really hard to beat lategame nowadays.

I disagree. It is very hard (too hard?) to know of how much stuff you have to take your third as Protoss. All the imbalances we have seen in the last half year in PvZ result from Protoss not being able to properly deal with early zerg thirds.
Any composition problems after this are just results of this problem imo.

And yeah, there are a lot of potent Protoss compositions against any zerg composition. But right now the low tier unit percentage in most Protoss lategame armies is just way too low. If half of the t1-t1.5 gateway units would be replaced by archons, HT, voids, phoenix, immortals and Carriers, it would look pretty different and (costwise way more compareable to the zerg composition)

docvoc

United States5491 Posts

February 02 2012 16:00 GMT

#148

wow, how did it go so far down for protoss? PvZ is looking horrendous again in the international, but KR is doing well, i wonder what changed this?

fritfrat

United States50 Posts

February 02 2012 16:07 GMT

#149

People can't read graphs at all, this is embarassing. The Korean PvZ presents like it's not even statistically different than the international PvZ! Just because the korean graph goes up to 80 instead of 60 and makes it look more even, everyone is reaching big conclusions how it's better in korea than internationally.

Big J

Austria16289 Posts

February 02 2012 16:16 GMT

#150

On February 03 2012 01:07 fritfrat wrote:
People can't read graphs at all, this is embarassing. The Korean PvZ presents like it's not even statistically different than the international PvZ! Just because the korean graph goes up to 80 instead of 60 and makes it look more even, everyone is reaching big conclusions how it's better in korea than internationally.

or you just read the numbers, instead of trying to estimate from the bars...

Deleted User 135096

3624 Posts

February 02 2012 16:17 GMT

#151

On February 03 2012 01:07 fritfrat wrote:
People can't read graphs at all, this is embarassing. The Korean PvZ presents like it's not even statistically different than the international PvZ! Just because the korean graph goes up to 80 instead of 60 and makes it look more even everyone is reaching big conclusions how it's better in korea than internationally.

There's a %7.4 difference in PvZ win rates between Korea and International, that's not different?

Edit: oh, I didn't look at the sample size, interesting.

IMoperator

4476 Posts

February 02 2012 16:22 GMT

#152

look at how many good foreign zergs vs. foreign protoss and you'll have the answer

DawN883

Sweden558 Posts

February 02 2012 16:29 GMT

#153

It's a great relief to not see any anti-terran comments on this thread

It feels amazing when people don't bash at you because of your race

d00p

711 Posts

February 02 2012 16:30 GMT

#154

On February 02 2012 18:06 thezanursic wrote:
Fuck yeah this fucking proves two things zerg is the easiest race to play and the game is pretty balance.

How exactly?

shiroiusagi

SoCal, USA3955 Posts

February 02 2012 16:34 GMT

#155

Wowies, Korea just keeps on getting more even when international is a landslide one way or the other. :x And holy gezz what happened to international ZvP. O_O

MrMotionPicture

United States4327 Posts

February 02 2012 16:36 GMT

#156

what the heck is going on with Zerg international? xD
Goodness...at least Korea is doing well!

Depetrify

978 Posts

February 02 2012 16:40 GMT

#157

I just feel like Forcefields are terrible mechanic in general, but now with immortal range buff you can just do a 2 base timing with immortals and have perfect forcefields and win, but if you mess up you just lose.

Rushing burrow won't work, won't have enough units to kill the army immortals are too good.

Everyones going to need to go infestor from now on to play completely safe I think.

p1cKLes

United States342 Posts

February 02 2012 16:44 GMT

#158

Korea looks good, but everywhere else doesn’t look that great. It’s not horrible, but my point is, it’s not always about Korea. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for making sure Korea is balanced because most of the high level games I watch come out of Korea. However, at the same time I want to make sure it’s fun for me too… you know, the non-pro 

Meldon

Greece128 Posts

February 02 2012 16:44 GMT

#159

Stefano is tearing new ones left and right!!!