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Applesqt
United States206 Posts
On February 03 2012 02:10 Roxy wrote: What do you guys think is more of a problem in ZvP? Mutas or Brood lord / Infestor? how bad do you think it would be if they got rid of the stupidest ability in the game: archon toilet? When you said stupidest ability I was thinking warp gate... | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8324 Posts
On February 02 2012 18:06 krooked wrote: "Zerg isn't supposed to beat Protoss" - idrA hehe, amazing differences there. I'd love to see a ZvP of IdrA vs Naniwa. BATTLE OF THE "IMPOSSIBLE MATCHUP" lol. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 03 2012 02:10 Roxy wrote: What do you guys think is more of a problem in ZvP? Mutas or Brood lord / Infestor? how bad do you think it would be if they got rid of the stupidest ability in the game: archon toilet? The "problem" is 3hatch. Zerg at 10mins right now always has more workers, more bases and the better open field composition in all the games that last longer than 12min and don't include a huge trade. From there on it's usually uphill for P, no matter what the composition is. | ||
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magnaflow
Canada1521 Posts
I would love to see the winrates for games that go longer then 15 minutes | ||
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Sabu113
United States11111 Posts
On February 03 2012 02:27 Big J wrote: The "problem" is 3hatch. Zerg at 10mins right now always has more workers, more bases and the better open field composition in all the games that last longer than 12min and don't include a huge trade. From there on it's usually uphill for P, no matter what the composition is. I mostly agree with you J. Every problem started since the Third Hatch became pretty safe to take quickly. I think the more fundamental issue is that spore burrow time change. Air openings were trending to tbe the standard stable opening of the matchup and it made sense. It took care of a lot of funky roach allin/aggression play while with moderate commitment could deny the third/ make it very costly to hold and provide adequate scouting. Mutas are a huge problem and the speed at which they can be gotten with the third contributes to the issue but if after seeing the past few months of mutas in ZvP you disagree then we might as well bench the topic. Late game BL/infestor looks impossible to kill off because of the toss need to trade cost effectively. Without the mothership.... very curious how HoTS is going to work ZvP. Still given that you need the mofo it doesn't seem like BL infestor is catching players without a preset response so the late game seems pretty evenish at the viewing level. | ||
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Erik.TheRed
United States1655 Posts
On February 03 2012 02:11 Roxy wrote: When blizzard said they are okay with a 5% disparity, does that mean they want: 47.5% vs 52.5% winrate? or 45% vs 55% winrate? Just got off the phone with my good friend D.Browder. He and his team of officials crunched some numbers for me. Looks like 95% vs 5% | ||
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R3DT1D3
285 Posts
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NerZhuL
United States57 Posts
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JiYan
United States3668 Posts
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NerZhuL
United States57 Posts
only 3% difference | ||
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Letall
Sweden384 Posts
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1st_Panzer_Div.
United States621 Posts
Also Stephano's style of PvZ is becoming way more popular and... umm... it's really good. | ||
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SpaceYeti
United States723 Posts
Zerg players want their opponents to play passive in the early game so they can easily get their economy and production up. Once their production and economy are in full gear, they want to be able to get sufficient recon on their opponent to respond with the most ideal unit composition and tactics. FFE allows Z-players both of these, as a FFE opener severely limits the number of aggressive options a P-player has in the early game, and it also gives the Z more time (and space in terms of points of entry) for scouting. A good question would be whether FFE is as predictably and reliably used as the P-opener on the Korean server. If Korean players are changing it up more, that may explain in part why they are doing better in the match-up. Of course, the difference is not as large as the asshat who made the graphs wants us to believe. Fix the fucking Y-axes on the International graph to the scale of that on the Korean graph and stop trying to deceive people. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
MC consistently opens 500 different ways in almost every PvZ and can barely manage to hold a 50% PvZ record. MC has some of the best micro/weirdest timings/great intuition out of any Protoss and still can't manage to win consistently against Z. And that's MC. The literally fucking best PvZ player in the world by a landslide. | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
On February 03 2012 02:49 SpaceYeti wrote: I think FFE is to blame for the current ZvP disparity. FFE seems to be the only thing I ever see P do anymore in the match up on the NA ladder. Not that FFE is a bad opener, but the the fact that is it a very passive opener combined with how reliably P-players are doing it plays right into the Z-player's hands, imo. I blame this too. The problem is that if you gate first, you risk allowing a hatch first opening. Now, as a zerg player, I feel happy against either gateway or forge first - But that's because I know all the timings almost perfectly, so I know how many drones I can get away with and when I need to scout. It is the predictability of the matchup that makes it comfortable for zerg, the reason you see ZvT lower then ZvP is because you never know what the fuck a Terran is doing, and there are so many different openings. Personally I reserve my judgement on balance until I see how this tournament season goes.. We haven't really seen too much "Cool new" stuff in the matchup yet because there haven't been too many games. | ||
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StatikKhaos
United States214 Posts
if you dont its like watching second graders play starcraft and being like hm from these second graders games i can conclude this: (and when you look at tournament results how good a player is can also affect it, like did they count games like losria vs ailuj) that said i am zerg soooooo you can ignore me for the most part  | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 03 2012 02:33 Sabu113 wrote: I mostly agree with you J. Every problem started since the Third Hatch became pretty safe to take quickly. I think the more fundamental issue is that spore burrow time change. Air openings were trending to tbe the standard stable opening of the matchup and it made sense. It took care of a lot of funky roach allin/aggression play while with moderate commitment could deny the third/ make it very costly to hold and provide adequate scouting. Mutas are a huge problem and the speed at which they can be gotten with the third contributes to the issue but if after seeing the past few months of mutas in ZvP you disagree then we might as well bench the topic. Late game BL/infestor looks impossible to kill off because of the toss need to trade cost effectively. Without the mothership.... very curious how HoTS is going to work ZvP. Still given that you need the mofo it doesn't seem like BL infestor is catching players without a preset response so the late game seems pretty evenish at the viewing level. I'm not saying that mutalisks are bad or something. But in my eyes they are mostly a composition that is used to win a game safely after getting ahead. I haven't seen a lot of Ps lose to mutas if they got a fast third and matched the Zergs workercount. So the question that remains in my eyes is, how to make this possible. Broodlord/Infestor/corruptor is kind of similar. When P has a stalkerbased composition in the endgame, they are imo behind in the ressources and therefore have to use "cheap" gateway units instead of void rays/phoenix/carrier/Archon/HT as antiair. Take MVP vs Lucky for example: lategame MVP trades every single marine down and replaces it with ghosts. Or Vikings. Right now I don't see Protoss doing this, neither do I ever see them getting in a position where they can do this. HotS will change everything in PvZ imo. Right now I don't see 3hatch being viable against the standard phoenix voidray combo, if you add an oracle against spores and (2base hydra allins). I think one base always has to go down in that scenario if properly played by the protoss. On the other hand 2base zerg should be more potent with swarm hosts and vipers against tech unit pushes. Also the Tempest as it has been shown right now, counter corruptors, so Broodlords seem to be very limited in PvZ lategame to begin with, hydras on the other hand with the speed upgrade and vipers (and hopefully a small buff  ) could become very potent. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8280 Posts
On February 03 2012 03:06 StatikKhaos wrote: people need to make sure they look at korean stats only, if you dont its like watching second graders play starcraft and being like hm from these second graders games i can conclude this: (and when you look at tournament results how good a player is can also affect it, like did they count games like losria vs ailuj) that said i am zerg soooooo you can ignore me for the most part The korean graph has near 1/10 of the games played in the international. + the disparity isn't actually that big between them, even thought the messed up graphs makes it look like it. Zerg still loses a lot over there as well. | ||
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deathly rat
United Kingdom911 Posts
On February 03 2012 02:27 Big J wrote: The "problem" is 3hatch. Zerg at 10mins right now always has more workers, more bases and the better open field composition in all the games that last longer than 12min and don't include a huge trade. From there on it's usually uphill for P, no matter what the composition is. The fast 3 hatch is a meta game response to forge first expand. P wants to play very greedy so makes no units, but Z cannot break the front directly, so the only option is to take 3 fast bases. If it were the other way around and it were viable for Z to wall off and rely on static defense the P could do exactly the same thing. Also, any game in which supplies are equal is a game that Z is losing, so your argument about better composition is wrong. | ||
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
On February 02 2012 18:44 Pinna wrote: Protoss's just need to get it that foreign protoss's are horrible. The best foreign protoss I can come up with is Huk/SaSe, and Huk has terrible PvZ, about SaSes I don't know. But the others like Grubby who only all-ins and HasuObs who is just bad overall, I don't see the foreign Protoss's getting anywhere. The only reason that the likes of Grubby win even on ladder is the fact that on ladder, 2base all-ins are good. Also, because the Protoss race is so easy overall, you can hit the skillceiling really fast with it, which I think happened to both Grubby and Hasuobs. 2base all-ins just cant get you so far. Well... If you look at MC you'd be surprised how well those 2 base pushes work in getting gsl championships. | ||
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