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On February 03 2012 03:10 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 02:33 Sabu113 wrote:On February 03 2012 02:27 Big J wrote:On February 03 2012 02:10 Roxy wrote:
What do you guys think is more of a problem in ZvP?
Mutas
or Brood lord / Infestor?
how bad do you think it would be if they got rid of the stupidest ability in the game: archon toilet?
The "problem" is 3hatch. Zerg at 10mins right now always has more workers, more bases and the better open field composition in all the games that last longer than 12min and don't include a huge trade. From there on it's usually uphill for P, no matter what the composition is. I mostly agree with you J. Every problem started since the Third Hatch became pretty safe to take quickly. I think the more fundamental issue is that spore burrow time change. Air openings were trending to tbe the standard stable opening of the matchup and it made sense. It took care of a lot of funky roach allin/aggression play while with moderate commitment could deny the third/ make it very costly to hold and provide adequate scouting. Mutas are a huge problem and the speed at which they can be gotten with the third contributes to the issue but if after seeing the past few months of mutas in ZvP you disagree then we might as well bench the topic. Late game BL/infestor looks impossible to kill off because of the toss need to trade cost effectively. Without the mothership.... very curious how HoTS is going to work ZvP. Still given that you need the mofo it doesn't seem like BL infestor is catching players without a preset response so the late game seems pretty evenish at the viewing level. I'm not saying that mutalisks are bad or something. But in my eyes they are mostly a composition that is used to win a game safely after getting ahead. I haven't seen a lot of Ps lose to mutas if they got a fast third and matched the Zergs workercount. So the question that remains in my eyes is, how to make this possible. Broodlord/Infestor/corruptor is kind of similar. When P has a stalkerbased composition in the endgame, they are imo behind in the ressources and therefore have to use "cheap" gateway units instead of void rays/phoenix/carrier/Archon/HT as antiair. Take MVP vs Lucky for example: lategame MVP trades every single marine down and replaces it with ghosts. Or Vikings. Right now I don't see Protoss doing this, neither do I ever see them getting in a position where they can do this. HotS will change everything in PvZ imo. Right now I don't see 3hatch being viable against the standard phoenix voidray combo, if you add an oracle against spores and (2base hydra allins). I think one base always has to go down in that scenario if properly played by the protoss. On the other hand 2base zerg should be more potent with swarm hosts and vipers against tech unit pushes. Also the Tempest as it has been shown right now, counter corruptors, so Broodlords seem to be very limited in PvZ lategame to begin with, hydras on the other hand with the speed upgrade and vipers (and hopefully a small buff  ) could become very potent.
Talking about HOTS is kinda pointless at this..point. Seeing as, most likely, none of the units showed at last years blizzcon will make it into the game in that state. You have one thing right thought. The game will change. But we can't possibly know how yet. For all we know it might get normal for zergs to triple expand against ffe..
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Dat ZvP.
I don't understand it honestly. While it looks imbalanced it seems watching the games that it's more a matter of popular playstyle.
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Have any pro players commented on these stats?
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I partly think it's due to all the new maps. Maps no longer have a blocked off third, so zergs can take that around the 4 minute mark once they see that FFE then drone until 7 minutes before they expect any protoss pressure. I think it's a matter of just adjusting to mutas in ZvP and also trying to figure out how to apply more pressure to the zerg or at least turtle for 3 base (or the easiest solution that I don't see enough protoss do: get cannons, and leave 1 ht at every nexus).
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On February 03 2012 03:16 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 03:10 Big J wrote:On February 03 2012 02:33 Sabu113 wrote:On February 03 2012 02:27 Big J wrote:On February 03 2012 02:10 Roxy wrote:
What do you guys think is more of a problem in ZvP?
Mutas
or Brood lord / Infestor?
how bad do you think it would be if they got rid of the stupidest ability in the game: archon toilet?
The "problem" is 3hatch. Zerg at 10mins right now always has more workers, more bases and the better open field composition in all the games that last longer than 12min and don't include a huge trade. From there on it's usually uphill for P, no matter what the composition is. I mostly agree with you J. Every problem started since the Third Hatch became pretty safe to take quickly. I think the more fundamental issue is that spore burrow time change. Air openings were trending to tbe the standard stable opening of the matchup and it made sense. It took care of a lot of funky roach allin/aggression play while with moderate commitment could deny the third/ make it very costly to hold and provide adequate scouting. Mutas are a huge problem and the speed at which they can be gotten with the third contributes to the issue but if after seeing the past few months of mutas in ZvP you disagree then we might as well bench the topic. Late game BL/infestor looks impossible to kill off because of the toss need to trade cost effectively. Without the mothership.... very curious how HoTS is going to work ZvP. Still given that you need the mofo it doesn't seem like BL infestor is catching players without a preset response so the late game seems pretty evenish at the viewing level. I'm not saying that mutalisks are bad or something. But in my eyes they are mostly a composition that is used to win a game safely after getting ahead. I haven't seen a lot of Ps lose to mutas if they got a fast third and matched the Zergs workercount. So the question that remains in my eyes is, how to make this possible. Broodlord/Infestor/corruptor is kind of similar. When P has a stalkerbased composition in the endgame, they are imo behind in the ressources and therefore have to use "cheap" gateway units instead of void rays/phoenix/carrier/Archon/HT as antiair. Take MVP vs Lucky for example: lategame MVP trades every single marine down and replaces it with ghosts. Or Vikings. Right now I don't see Protoss doing this, neither do I ever see them getting in a position where they can do this. HotS will change everything in PvZ imo. Right now I don't see 3hatch being viable against the standard phoenix voidray combo, if you add an oracle against spores and (2base hydra allins). I think one base always has to go down in that scenario if properly played by the protoss. On the other hand 2base zerg should be more potent with swarm hosts and vipers against tech unit pushes. Also the Tempest as it has been shown right now, counter corruptors, so Broodlords seem to be very limited in PvZ lategame to begin with, hydras on the other hand with the speed upgrade and vipers (and hopefully a small buff ) could become very potent. Talking about HOTS is kinda pointless at this..point. Seeing as, most likely, none of the units showed at last years blizzcon will make it into the game in that state. You have one thing right thought. The game will change. But we can't possibly know how yet. For all we know it might get normal for zergs to triple expand against ffe..
agree. But he was asking, so I was giving him an idea of what could be possible.
Just for those who havent seen it yet: DRG, NesTea and MC tweeting about balance. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308373
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On February 02 2012 17:56 HaXXspetten wrote:Korea looking good. Outside, mutas are still wrecking havoc in ZvP it seems 
Im masters NA and I rarely see / lose to mutas anymore. Now it's mass broods for me. Time to start whipping out mothership :D
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On February 03 2012 03:22 VPVanek wrote:
Protoss needs a buff.
Everytime the stats are low doesn't mean there must be a buff...
The game looks quite balanced in Korea, hope it will look the same next month
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On February 02 2012 17:56 TrickyGilligan wrote:
Lol not sure what happened to the international Protoss. Considering Korea isn't even close to similar though, going to have to assume it's a fluke.
The lines are running averages-- if you look at the actual percentages in ZvP in Korea it's around 55%, int'l around 60%. It's still Z favoured, just less so in Korea.
Then you have idra saying no zerg should beat protoss currently, and the conversation between MC/Nestea/DRG saying protoss is really really favoured, so there must've been a shift that I hadn't picked up on. Probably involving killing zerg before they get a critical mass of mutas up...
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The stats are interesting but are a very vague indicator of balance. Think PvZ pre-bisu and after bisu.
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On February 03 2012 03:41 Incognoto wrote:
The stats are interesting but are a very vague indicator of balance. Think PvZ pre-bisu and after bisu.
How is that a very vague indicator of balance?
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Northern Ireland27264 Posts
On February 03 2012 02:23 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 18:06 krooked wrote:
"Zerg isn't supposed to beat Protoss" - idrA
hehe, amazing differences there. I'd love to see a ZvP of IdrA vs Naniwa. BATTLE OF THE "IMPOSSIBLE MATCHUP" lol.
The guys don't like the matchup
JYP is a good player but gets hammered in PvT. Some matches just don't suit a player's strengths or weaknesses, or they get a mental block over it lol.
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On February 03 2012 03:56 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 02:23 TheDougler wrote:On February 02 2012 18:06 krooked wrote:
"Zerg isn't supposed to beat Protoss" - idrA
hehe, amazing differences there. I'd love to see a ZvP of IdrA vs Naniwa. BATTLE OF THE "IMPOSSIBLE MATCHUP" lol. The guys don't like the matchup JYP is a good player but gets hammered in PvT. Some matches just don't suit a player's strengths or weaknesses, or they get a mental block over it lol.
Difference is JYP seems to understand it's his fault he's so bad at PvT.
Idra insists it's the game's fault or something that he sucks in ZvP.
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On February 03 2012 03:11 deathly rat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 02:27 Big J wrote:On February 03 2012 02:10 Roxy wrote:
What do you guys think is more of a problem in ZvP?
Mutas
or Brood lord / Infestor?
how bad do you think it would be if they got rid of the stupidest ability in the game: archon toilet?
The "problem" is 3hatch. Zerg at 10mins right now always has more workers, more bases and the better open field composition in all the games that last longer than 12min and don't include a huge trade. From there on it's usually uphill for P, no matter what the composition is. The fast 3 hatch is a meta game response to forge first expand. P wants to play very greedy so makes no units, but Z cannot break the front directly, so the only option is to take 3 fast bases. If it were the other way around and it were viable for Z to wall off and rely on static defense the P could do exactly the same thing. Also, any game in which supplies are equal is a game that Z is losing, so your argument about better composition is wrong.
A FFE is the only reliable way of playing the matchup. The various sentry based gateway expands are all not viable for various reasons that has been discussed before by me and a thousand other players.
Anyway, the core issue is that fast 3 hatch is not punishable by Protoss except by VERY specific builds (+1 Zealot/Void comes to mind) and these -are- being figured out gradually, just as Stargate or DT timings were figured out before. If a Zerg gets up his ridiculously fast third without Protoss dealing damage, its essentially over.
However, Protoss also cannot go -too- all in since Zerg can arbitrarily also bust the front with a roach/ling all-in.
The core issue of the matchup is a combination of the following:
Fast 3rd
Mutas
Broodlord/Infestor
This can be put more simply by one big issue though. Protoss is -always- working on a timer for the entire game. We HAVE to be aggressive on the fast third and delay or kill it off, we HAVE to have blink / cannons / HT up by the time mutas come out, and we HAVE to have either a 200/200 mass of Blink Stalkers or Mothership/Archon by the time Broodlord/Infestor comes out. There simply aren't other options besides these.
Sure, a P player can get funky and throw in a warp prism and DTs or whatever. But there's no legitimate way for Protoss to actually be -ahead- in the macro game and dictate the flow of the game (besides all-ins).
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I dont konw where this data came from... I have seen protoss steamrolling zerg lately and I dont think they are doing that poorly against terran either.... Seriously, was I watching different matches last month?
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And let's all hope this will stop Terran from whinning about TvP.
Seems pretty good, I guess ZvP might just be late game being a coin flip and mutas forcing stupid base race situations.
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On February 03 2012 04:05 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 03:56 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 03 2012 02:23 TheDougler wrote:On February 02 2012 18:06 krooked wrote:
"Zerg isn't supposed to beat Protoss" - idrA
hehe, amazing differences there. I'd love to see a ZvP of IdrA vs Naniwa. BATTLE OF THE "IMPOSSIBLE MATCHUP" lol. The guys don't like the matchup JYP is a good player but gets hammered in PvT. Some matches just don't suit a player's strengths or weaknesses, or they get a mental block over it lol. Difference is JYP seems to understand it's his fault he's so bad at PvT. Idra insists it's the game's fault or something that he sucks in ZvP.
I don't think IdrA has a problem with the game....
On February 02 2012 23:36 IdrA wrote:
cuz its a shit game
....nevermind.
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On February 03 2012 04:05 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 03:56 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 03 2012 02:23 TheDougler wrote:On February 02 2012 18:06 krooked wrote:
"Zerg isn't supposed to beat Protoss" - idrA
hehe, amazing differences there. I'd love to see a ZvP of IdrA vs Naniwa. BATTLE OF THE "IMPOSSIBLE MATCHUP" lol. The guys don't like the matchup JYP is a good player but gets hammered in PvT. Some matches just don't suit a player's strengths or weaknesses, or they get a mental block over it lol. Difference is JYP seems to understand it's his fault he's so bad at PvT. Idra insists it's the game's fault or something that he sucks in ZvP.
This! Though I'm very hesitant to use these stats in any actual balance discussion I find it absolutely hilarious to have these stats pop up right after Idra whining that Zerg can't beat protoss. Made my day!
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Protoss needs a decent harass unit. Thats the real problem on PvZ.
Some will say we have DT's, phoenixes and prisms. Well, a decente zerg will most likely have a good map control with overlords and xel'nagas, DT's are way too expensive too expend: you either cause damage or you're way behind; Phoenix just hit air units, so a few spores and zerg is safe.
That being said, protoss can't punish zerg's 3rd, unless they go for hidden pylon and hit some timings with +1 and 4gates (even on FFE) and kill the hatchery. Still, a good zerg will scout that hidden pylon and you can't do nothing besides trying to get a safe 3rd, reaching 200/200 and go around map killing everything zerg has (if you're not dead before, of course).
And about the muta whining. I have a real bad time with mutas now still I don't think mutas are the problem. The problem is the mutaling mobility which is a pain to hold, since protoss units are so imobile... Also what I said about Ps having no good harass units makes the Zerg with stupid map control with mutalings and will most likely face a 2~3 base P vs a 5~6 base Z.
PS: Sorry for bad spelling/grammar error/poor english
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On February 03 2012 03:28 IrOnKaL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 17:56 HaXXspetten wrote:Korea looking good. Outside, mutas are still wrecking havoc in ZvP it seems Im masters NA and I rarely see / lose to mutas anymore. Now it's mass broods for me. Time to start whipping out mothership :D
This :/
Mutas can be deadly with speedling harras if map allows it.
Late game brood/infestor is impossible to beat without mamaship. And that situation is really sad.
I've been in games where I'm ahead and i lose to brood/inf (without mothership), and in games where i've won easily with mothership even though I've been behind whole game. I dont like the fact that late game depends so much on 1 unit
Have in mind this also depends on maps. On bigger maps, tal darim for example, you could be cute and blink around, warp in everywhere with prism and be okay. But on narrow map, like shakuras, once z has enough broods and infestor, its very hard without arcon toilet :/
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EPT
