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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On February 03 2012 04:05 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 03:56 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 03 2012 02:23 TheDougler wrote:On February 02 2012 18:06 krooked wrote:
"Zerg isn't supposed to beat Protoss" - idrA
hehe, amazing differences there. I'd love to see a ZvP of IdrA vs Naniwa. BATTLE OF THE "IMPOSSIBLE MATCHUP" lol. The guys don't like the matchup JYP is a good player but gets hammered in PvT. Some matches just don't suit a player's strengths or weaknesses, or they get a mental block over it lol. Difference is JYP seems to understand it's his fault he's so bad at PvT. Idra insists it's the game's fault or something that he sucks in ZvP.
Oh for sure there is a distinction between their comments on said matchup, but there is obviously something about Protoss styles or whatever that throws Idra off. Even when the winrates have swung, and even when Terran reigned supreme Idra's ZvT has been a matchup the guy is more comfortable with than ZvP.
Not sure what the issue is with the current Z>P stat, there have been a lot of good theories put out here. Luckily we're doing pretty well vs T at the moment so it's not quite at the sad Zealot stage.
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I watched TLO streaming today. He said he doesn't think about balance, only the mistakes he made in his play. I hope to take this attitude from now on.
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On February 03 2012 03:24 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 03:16 Excludos wrote:On February 03 2012 03:10 Big J wrote:On February 03 2012 02:33 Sabu113 wrote:On February 03 2012 02:27 Big J wrote:On February 03 2012 02:10 Roxy wrote:
What do you guys think is more of a problem in ZvP?
Mutas
or Brood lord / Infestor?
how bad do you think it would be if they got rid of the stupidest ability in the game: archon toilet?
The "problem" is 3hatch. Zerg at 10mins right now always has more workers, more bases and the better open field composition in all the games that last longer than 12min and don't include a huge trade. From there on it's usually uphill for P, no matter what the composition is. I mostly agree with you J. Every problem started since the Third Hatch became pretty safe to take quickly. I think the more fundamental issue is that spore burrow time change. Air openings were trending to tbe the standard stable opening of the matchup and it made sense. It took care of a lot of funky roach allin/aggression play while with moderate commitment could deny the third/ make it very costly to hold and provide adequate scouting. Mutas are a huge problem and the speed at which they can be gotten with the third contributes to the issue but if after seeing the past few months of mutas in ZvP you disagree then we might as well bench the topic. Late game BL/infestor looks impossible to kill off because of the toss need to trade cost effectively. Without the mothership.... very curious how HoTS is going to work ZvP. Still given that you need the mofo it doesn't seem like BL infestor is catching players without a preset response so the late game seems pretty evenish at the viewing level. I'm not saying that mutalisks are bad or something. But in my eyes they are mostly a composition that is used to win a game safely after getting ahead. I haven't seen a lot of Ps lose to mutas if they got a fast third and matched the Zergs workercount. So the question that remains in my eyes is, how to make this possible. Broodlord/Infestor/corruptor is kind of similar. When P has a stalkerbased composition in the endgame, they are imo behind in the ressources and therefore have to use "cheap" gateway units instead of void rays/phoenix/carrier/Archon/HT as antiair. Take MVP vs Lucky for example: lategame MVP trades every single marine down and replaces it with ghosts. Or Vikings. Right now I don't see Protoss doing this, neither do I ever see them getting in a position where they can do this. HotS will change everything in PvZ imo. Right now I don't see 3hatch being viable against the standard phoenix voidray combo, if you add an oracle against spores and (2base hydra allins). I think one base always has to go down in that scenario if properly played by the protoss. On the other hand 2base zerg should be more potent with swarm hosts and vipers against tech unit pushes. Also the Tempest as it has been shown right now, counter corruptors, so Broodlords seem to be very limited in PvZ lategame to begin with, hydras on the other hand with the speed upgrade and vipers (and hopefully a small buff  ) could become very potent. Talking about HOTS is kinda pointless at this..point. Seeing as, most likely, none of the units showed at last years blizzcon will make it into the game in that state. You have one thing right thought. The game will change. But we can't possibly know how yet. For all we know it might get normal for zergs to triple expand against ffe.. agree. But he was asking, so I was giving him an idea of what could be possible. Just for those who havent seen it yet: DRG, NesTea and MC tweeting about balance. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308373
Wrong thread, here's the correct one:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=308394
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I don't think that's quite fair if you want to talk about balance. Looking at the games against protoss in his profile his wins have come against players that he's clearly better than and lost against the better players (MC, Huk, Hero etc). In no way does it disprove (or prove for that matter) wheter or not protoss is imba versus zerg or invalidate his opinion.
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On February 03 2012 02:11 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 01:54 Roxy wrote:
Interesting:
International:
All of the terran QQ vs protoss is unwarranted
PvT is balanced.
TvZ is balanced
Muta QQ is completely warranted. The protoss were right all along.
Korea:
PvT is balanced.
TvZ is balanced
ZvP... lololol.. zerg QQ.. ya... the protosses were right
I think if you only look at tvp macro games, you will see that it's very p favoured. Atm the graph is more close because of terran allins 
Wtf would anyone make that kind of distinction?
Is any tournament ever just going to be all macro games?
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On February 02 2012 18:34 bartus88 wrote:
Zerg has a winrate of 55%+ in ZvP in both regions, and IdrA still claims Protoss is overpowered.
I wonder if he will ever realise it's his personal mindset that makes him lose, not imbalance. My guess is no.
its not just idra i believe nestea and drg also said that zerg is having hard time LOL
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On February 02 2012 18:44 Pinna wrote:
Protoss's just need to get it that foreign protoss's are horrible. The best foreign protoss I can come up with is Huk/SaSe, and Huk has terrible PvZ, about SaSes I don't know. But the others like Grubby who only all-ins and HasuObs who is just bad overall, I don't see the foreign Protoss's getting anywhere. The only reason that the likes of Grubby win even on ladder is the fact that on ladder, 2base all-ins are good.
Also, because the Protoss race is so easy overall, you can hit the skillceiling really fast with it, which I think happened to both Grubby and Hasuobs. 2base all-ins just cant get you so far.
the insight on this post really showed me the problem with pvz thx...
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Wow im pretty impressed how balanced the game is looking in Korea. Despite ZvP still being slightly favorable for zerg but I think there are a lot of protosses could do better work coming up with PvZ strats.
Also LOL at ZvP internationally, 60 40 basically.
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Is it not quite a biased set of figures because those people that are winning actually play more games because they get later into the tournaments.
Looking at Idra's figures I notice that he has played vs Z only about 120 times in competition, whereas he has played vs T ~ 250 times and vs P ~ 200 times. This is a lot more interesting to me.
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On February 03 2012 04:49 wo1fwood wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 03:24 Big J wrote:On February 03 2012 03:16 Excludos wrote:On February 03 2012 03:10 Big J wrote:On February 03 2012 02:33 Sabu113 wrote:On February 03 2012 02:27 Big J wrote:On February 03 2012 02:10 Roxy wrote:
What do you guys think is more of a problem in ZvP?
Mutas
or Brood lord / Infestor?
how bad do you think it would be if they got rid of the stupidest ability in the game: archon toilet?
The "problem" is 3hatch. Zerg at 10mins right now always has more workers, more bases and the better open field composition in all the games that last longer than 12min and don't include a huge trade. From there on it's usually uphill for P, no matter what the composition is. I mostly agree with you J. Every problem started since the Third Hatch became pretty safe to take quickly. I think the more fundamental issue is that spore burrow time change. Air openings were trending to tbe the standard stable opening of the matchup and it made sense. It took care of a lot of funky roach allin/aggression play while with moderate commitment could deny the third/ make it very costly to hold and provide adequate scouting. Mutas are a huge problem and the speed at which they can be gotten with the third contributes to the issue but if after seeing the past few months of mutas in ZvP you disagree then we might as well bench the topic. Late game BL/infestor looks impossible to kill off because of the toss need to trade cost effectively. Without the mothership.... very curious how HoTS is going to work ZvP. Still given that you need the mofo it doesn't seem like BL infestor is catching players without a preset response so the late game seems pretty evenish at the viewing level. I'm not saying that mutalisks are bad or something. But in my eyes they are mostly a composition that is used to win a game safely after getting ahead. I haven't seen a lot of Ps lose to mutas if they got a fast third and matched the Zergs workercount. So the question that remains in my eyes is, how to make this possible. Broodlord/Infestor/corruptor is kind of similar. When P has a stalkerbased composition in the endgame, they are imo behind in the ressources and therefore have to use "cheap" gateway units instead of void rays/phoenix/carrier/Archon/HT as antiair. Take MVP vs Lucky for example: lategame MVP trades every single marine down and replaces it with ghosts. Or Vikings. Right now I don't see Protoss doing this, neither do I ever see them getting in a position where they can do this. HotS will change everything in PvZ imo. Right now I don't see 3hatch being viable against the standard phoenix voidray combo, if you add an oracle against spores and (2base hydra allins). I think one base always has to go down in that scenario if properly played by the protoss. On the other hand 2base zerg should be more potent with swarm hosts and vipers against tech unit pushes. Also the Tempest as it has been shown right now, counter corruptors, so Broodlords seem to be very limited in PvZ lategame to begin with, hydras on the other hand with the speed upgrade and vipers (and hopefully a small buff ) could become very potent. Talking about HOTS is kinda pointless at this..point. Seeing as, most likely, none of the units showed at last years blizzcon will make it into the game in that state. You have one thing right thought. The game will change. But we can't possibly know how yet. For all we know it might get normal for zergs to triple expand against ffe.. agree. But he was asking, so I was giving him an idea of what could be possible. Just for those who havent seen it yet: DRG, NesTea and MC tweeting about balance. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308373 Wrong thread, here's the correct one: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=308394
lol. NICE
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best thing is that idra said that zerg is impossible to win against protoss...
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On February 02 2012 21:11 OpTiKDream wrote:
sometimes i just get the feeling this is all a big troll attempt to get blizzard buffing protoss more.
The Creator of this graph is a Protoss player. Anyone double checking his numbers?
His scaling--As noted by many-- is already pretty deceiving.
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On February 03 2012 05:25 DaveVAH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 21:11 OpTiKDream wrote:
sometimes i just get the feeling this is all a big troll attempt to get blizzard buffing protoss more. The Creator of this graph is a Protoss player. Anyone double checking his numbers? His scaling--As noted by many-- is already pretty deceiving.
lol? wasnt the same scaling used when Ps numbers were good? Been already noted that scaling is used for visibility reasons, not to deceive anyone.
+ Show Spoiler +Also, lol Idra.. sorry couldn't resist.. same goes for drg/nestea tweets
Great timing, complain about balance when we're close to 50%... nerf is surely needed to get Z back up at this point?
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On February 02 2012 18:44 Pinna wrote:
Protoss's just need to get it that foreign protoss's are horrible. The best foreign protoss I can come up with is Huk/SaSe, and Huk has terrible PvZ, about SaSes I don't know. But the others like Grubby who only all-ins and HasuObs who is just bad overall, I don't see the foreign Protoss's getting anywhere. The only reason that the likes of Grubby win even on ladder is the fact that on ladder, 2base all-ins are good.
Also, because the Protoss race is so easy overall, you can hit the skillceiling really fast with it, which I think happened to both Grubby and Hasuobs. 2base all-ins just cant get you so far.
Lets say all foreign protosses have bad results
Lets also say all foreign pro protosses practice just as much as foreign pro terran/zerg players
and lets say that a random sample of players (drawn from a populatino of over 4 million sold copies) is assigned to each race
We conclude that all of the players that picked protoss are bad?
okay.. ya.. that sounds reasonable...
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On February 03 2012 05:25 DaveVAH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 21:11 OpTiKDream wrote:
sometimes i just get the feeling this is all a big troll attempt to get blizzard buffing protoss more. The Creator of this graph is a Protoss player. Anyone double checking his numbers? His scaling--As noted by many-- is already pretty deceiving.
I don't understand how it's deceiving. I don't even look at the bars; I just look at the percentages and x off.
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On February 02 2012 23:02 Tarotis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 23:01 cyclone25 wrote:
I like how the protoss posters on this thread are 100% ignoring the korean ZvP win rates. 5% in favor of Zerg is quite a lot...
55.1-44.9= 10.2
Nice math bro. I don't think the matchup is too bad right now, think we should give it more time and see what the winrates say during Jan. and Feb., which should be more active months.
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On February 03 2012 05:40 Witten wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 23:02 Tarotis wrote:On February 02 2012 23:01 cyclone25 wrote:
I like how the protoss posters on this thread are 100% ignoring the korean ZvP win rates. 5% in favor of Zerg is quite a lot... 55.1-44.9= 10.2 Nice math bro. I don't think the matchup is too bad right now, think we should give it more time and see what the winrates say during Jan. and Feb., which should be more active months.
game is fine. protoss can wait til HOTS
maybe if they go less than 30% we can buff the carrier
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On February 03 2012 05:25 DaveVAH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 21:11 OpTiKDream wrote:
sometimes i just get the feeling this is all a big troll attempt to get blizzard buffing protoss more. The Creator of this graph is a Protoss player. Anyone double checking his numbers? His scaling--As noted by many-- is already pretty deceiving.
He's taken his own time and a lot of hard work to make it by himself, yet you're doubting it because he plays Protoss. Don't look at it if you don't believe it.
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On February 03 2012 05:48 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 05:25 DaveVAH wrote:On February 02 2012 21:11 OpTiKDream wrote:
sometimes i just get the feeling this is all a big troll attempt to get blizzard buffing protoss more. The Creator of this graph is a Protoss player. Anyone double checking his numbers? His scaling--As noted by many-- is already pretty deceiving. He's taken his own time and a lot of hard work to make it by himself, yet you're doubting it because he plays Protoss. Don't look at it if you don't believe it.
There has to be checks and balances for something that affects the opinions of thousands of people in the community. The numbers that are given to him should be compiled by someone else to see if accuracy is kept.
This game is a highly emotional game, people playing a race will get down right insane sometimes by regular standards. if someone is not playing random, and is solely responsible for putting together something that affects community perception (and that in response affects blizzard and how they balance the game) We need at-least SOME checks and balances.
Someone should put the time to verify these stats. Even if its done in a skirtly fashion.
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EPT
