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On February 02 2012 23:15 Gara wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 22:07 wo1fwood wrote:On February 02 2012 20:40 Cascade wrote:
omg, NOW I realise that the plots are on different scales... The foreign one is 40-60, the korean one 20-80... Kindof changes the impression. OP should edit that in so people pay more attention to the graphs. International Y axis %40-60 Korean Y axis %20-80 Just for reference, here are the PvZ winrates: PvZ Int: 41.2/58.8 PvZ Kor: 44.9/55.1 I really think the OP should start normalizing the axes to something like 20% - 80% for both international and Korean data sets; it might make data harder to see, but that way there would be no confusion whatsoever when comparing the two. The whole point of graphing it is to have a accurate visual representation, and while there's nothing wrong with the way it's set up right now, it would be easier to interpret if the axes were all the same.
I will probably do just that next month. 20-80 seems like a good compromise between readability and still being able to show all the Korean data points.
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The difference between 60:40 and 50:50 is a one game swing in a 10-game series. That's hardly significant enough to make the game unplayable or explain why you suck as a player. Time to move on.
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The PvZ difference is just because its so much easier to win with mutas than to beat them, not that they are overpowered. If every foreigner protoss read the recomended straategey thread on dealing with mutas it wouldn't be this bad imho. That being said, I hate them and I hope everybody over-reacts and they get nerfed to hell.
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Cool charts. We can all see that Terran is imba, and toss sucks balls.
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On February 02 2012 21:52 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 21:39 Excludos wrote:On February 02 2012 21:31 rilma wrote:On February 02 2012 18:06 jliu wrote:
Oh my gosh. Why the ZvP disparity?
edit: Nevermind see above post - probably mutas & getting better at holding 2-base all-ins.
I don't think it's that lol  it is, actually. First off a protoss going lategame vs zerg is suicide as the zerg lategame army is close to unbeatable. Even with mothership it can so easily backfire because of NP. So a lot of the good tosses have been doing 2base allins a lot, as that seems to be what has worked the most. But as Zergs generally adapt to allins over time, it, obviously, starts working less and less. And then theres the mutalisks which, even with several stalkers and canons, can oneshot an entire mineral line when you get enough of them. And then be back to defend before lunch as the unit is incredibly fast and very strong vs stalker. Or just basetrade, and they will win most if not every single time. Even if the protoss decides to turtle up the zerg can easily take every other base on the map and be so far ahead. The only real option for toss is scouting the mutalisks well before they arrive (or metagame by seeing spines), and be ready with blinkstalkers and canons. And even then its incredibly hard to take a third base and near impossible to take a fourth. Archons are nice, but like thors, when the mutaball gets large enough to oneshot them, you can spread them out and defend anymore. HT works well, but mutalisks are so fast its actually incredibly hard to hit a good storm. And even then you'll at most do 50% dmg to the ones you hit. At which point the muts just run away and regens. actually those stats are not about silver leaguers who can't get thirds up against zerg, but about progamers who have thirds at the time zerg has mutalisks and about progamers who will go into exile if they ever got a mothership NPed. furthermore hardly anything has changed in Zerg gameplay in the last month, so why did the winrates change? 
Protoss can't have a safe third by the time Zerg gets Mutalisks.
I think Zerg has been doing better because 1) Zergs are getting better at Mass Muta mass spore spine play and 2) mass infestor mass broodlord and spine is a composition that is not beatable by any Protoss composition, not even carrier, mothership, templar, stalker, collosus, archon, voidray.
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Unsuprisingly Terran is high all around.
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On February 02 2012 21:52 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 21:39 Excludos wrote:On February 02 2012 21:31 rilma wrote:On February 02 2012 18:06 jliu wrote:
Oh my gosh. Why the ZvP disparity?
edit: Nevermind see above post - probably mutas & getting better at holding 2-base all-ins.
I don't think it's that lol it is, actually. First off a protoss going lategame vs zerg is suicide as the zerg lategame army is close to unbeatable. Even with mothership it can so easily backfire because of NP. So a lot of the good tosses have been doing 2base allins a lot, as that seems to be what has worked the most. But as Zergs generally adapt to allins over time, it, obviously, starts working less and less. And then theres the mutalisks which, even with several stalkers and canons, can oneshot an entire mineral line when you get enough of them. And then be back to defend before lunch as the unit is incredibly fast and very strong vs stalker. Or just basetrade, and they will win most if not every single time. Even if the protoss decides to turtle up the zerg can easily take every other base on the map and be so far ahead. The only real option for toss is scouting the mutalisks well before they arrive (or metagame by seeing spines), and be ready with blinkstalkers and canons. And even then its incredibly hard to take a third base and near impossible to take a fourth. Archons are nice, but like thors, when the mutaball gets large enough to oneshot them, you can spread them out and defend anymore. HT works well, but mutalisks are so fast its actually incredibly hard to hit a good storm. And even then you'll at most do 50% dmg to the ones you hit. At which point the muts just run away and regens. actually those stats are not about silver leaguers who can't get thirds up against zerg, but about progamers who have thirds at the time zerg has mutalisks and about progamers who will go into exile if they ever got a mothership NPed. furthermore hardly anything has changed in Zerg gameplay in the last month, so why did the winrates change?
There was nothing in my post that was aimed at silver level players.. And yes, Zerg gameplay has changed into involving a lot more mutalisks in the last month. I Meet them in 4/5 games now. And most progamers I follow has changed into that style as well.
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On February 02 2012 23:40 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 21:52 Big J wrote:On February 02 2012 21:39 Excludos wrote:On February 02 2012 21:31 rilma wrote:On February 02 2012 18:06 jliu wrote:
Oh my gosh. Why the ZvP disparity?
edit: Nevermind see above post - probably mutas & getting better at holding 2-base all-ins.
I don't think it's that lol it is, actually. First off a protoss going lategame vs zerg is suicide as the zerg lategame army is close to unbeatable. Even with mothership it can so easily backfire because of NP. So a lot of the good tosses have been doing 2base allins a lot, as that seems to be what has worked the most. But as Zergs generally adapt to allins over time, it, obviously, starts working less and less. And then theres the mutalisks which, even with several stalkers and canons, can oneshot an entire mineral line when you get enough of them. And then be back to defend before lunch as the unit is incredibly fast and very strong vs stalker. Or just basetrade, and they will win most if not every single time. Even if the protoss decides to turtle up the zerg can easily take every other base on the map and be so far ahead. The only real option for toss is scouting the mutalisks well before they arrive (or metagame by seeing spines), and be ready with blinkstalkers and canons. And even then its incredibly hard to take a third base and near impossible to take a fourth. Archons are nice, but like thors, when the mutaball gets large enough to oneshot them, you can spread them out and defend anymore. HT works well, but mutalisks are so fast its actually incredibly hard to hit a good storm. And even then you'll at most do 50% dmg to the ones you hit. At which point the muts just run away and regens. actually those stats are not about silver leaguers who can't get thirds up against zerg, but about progamers who have thirds at the time zerg has mutalisks and about progamers who will go into exile if they ever got a mothership NPed. furthermore hardly anything has changed in Zerg gameplay in the last month, so why did the winrates change? Protoss can't have a safe third by the time Zerg gets Mutalisks. I think Zerg has been doing better because 1) Zergs are getting better at Mass Muta mass spore spine play and 2) mass infestor mass broodlord and spine is a composition that is not beatable by any Protoss composition, not even carrier, mothership, templar, stalker, collosus, archon, voidray.
How can you say something like that? Do you honestly think anyone has played or watched enough of the match up to say Protoss can NEVER get a safe third. Or that NO composition can beat Zergs. Because I think your being melodramatic.
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On February 02 2012 23:37 jdsowa wrote:
The difference between 60:40 and 50:50 is a one game swing in a 10-game series. That's hardly significant enough to make the game unplayable or explain why you suck as a player. Time to move on.
Its also a 6000 game swing in a pool of 30000 tournament games..
Besides, this means that 50% of protoss players have BELOW 40% winrate in that matchup. Thats pretty harsh tbh.
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Forgive my ignorance, but is this across all leagues and players?
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On February 03 2012 00:08 haffy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 23:40 -_- wrote:On February 02 2012 21:52 Big J wrote:On February 02 2012 21:39 Excludos wrote:On February 02 2012 21:31 rilma wrote:On February 02 2012 18:06 jliu wrote:
Oh my gosh. Why the ZvP disparity?
edit: Nevermind see above post - probably mutas & getting better at holding 2-base all-ins.
I don't think it's that lol it is, actually. First off a protoss going lategame vs zerg is suicide as the zerg lategame army is close to unbeatable. Even with mothership it can so easily backfire because of NP. So a lot of the good tosses have been doing 2base allins a lot, as that seems to be what has worked the most. But as Zergs generally adapt to allins over time, it, obviously, starts working less and less. And then theres the mutalisks which, even with several stalkers and canons, can oneshot an entire mineral line when you get enough of them. And then be back to defend before lunch as the unit is incredibly fast and very strong vs stalker. Or just basetrade, and they will win most if not every single time. Even if the protoss decides to turtle up the zerg can easily take every other base on the map and be so far ahead. The only real option for toss is scouting the mutalisks well before they arrive (or metagame by seeing spines), and be ready with blinkstalkers and canons. And even then its incredibly hard to take a third base and near impossible to take a fourth. Archons are nice, but like thors, when the mutaball gets large enough to oneshot them, you can spread them out and defend anymore. HT works well, but mutalisks are so fast its actually incredibly hard to hit a good storm. And even then you'll at most do 50% dmg to the ones you hit. At which point the muts just run away and regens. actually those stats are not about silver leaguers who can't get thirds up against zerg, but about progamers who have thirds at the time zerg has mutalisks and about progamers who will go into exile if they ever got a mothership NPed. furthermore hardly anything has changed in Zerg gameplay in the last month, so why did the winrates change? Protoss can't have a safe third by the time Zerg gets Mutalisks. I think Zerg has been doing better because 1) Zergs are getting better at Mass Muta mass spore spine play and 2) mass infestor mass broodlord and spine is a composition that is not beatable by any Protoss composition, not even carrier, mothership, templar, stalker, collosus, archon, voidray. How can you say something like that? Do you honestly think anyone has played or watched enough of the match up to say Protoss can NEVER get a safe third. Or that NO composition can beat Zergs. Because I think your being melodramatic.
Theres a difference between "a third" and a "safe" third. Of course there are players who gets thirds. I do it in nearly every game, mutalisks or not. But that doesn't mean I don't take heavy losses in the process if the zerg players knows how to play. On top of that lategame PvZ is fairly onsesided atm with broodlord infestor composition. Mothership can work (and when it does its hilariously stupid), but for the most part zerg is really hard to beat lategame nowadays.
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As long as Korea is balanced I'm happy.
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On February 02 2012 23:37 jdsowa wrote:
The difference between 60:40 and 50:50 is a one game swing in a 10-game series. That's hardly significant enough to make the game unplayable or explain why you suck as a player. Time to move on.
somebody doesnt understand statistics...
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On February 03 2012 00:12 Charger wrote:
Forgive my ignorance, but is this across all leagues and players?
Its across all tournament matches recorded in TLPD.
edit: Which means for the most part high masters, GM players, and progamers.
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On February 02 2012 22:27 Louis8k8 wrote:Wtf, why the 41 : 59 PvZ ratio o___O. Is it that imbalanced? Has there ever been as severe imbalance as this in any MU since release? Is there' a ladder version?  It might be less imbalanced.
Biggest skew since release, no, it was worse april 2011.
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Zerg is very good vs Protoss atm.
There is no good way to deal with mass muta then to abandon ur base and baserace which u will lose 9/10 times.
There are 2 reasons why Mass muta is strong atm, Protoss can only counter low amounts of muta's. There is NO way to deal with 50-60 muta's.
Phoenix are only an option vs <10 muta's.
Stalkers work decently but only to defend vs muta's you can't actually kill them ever.
High templars are good but u basically rely on ur zerg opponent to be dumb and not move his superfast muta's out of a storm.
Archons are also good but usually get focus fired instantly so they don't really get any shots off.
The 2nd reason is the mappool.
I feel like there are a lot of maps in the current mappool where you can really 'abuse' muta's with Tal'Darim altar as the best map for it.
Maps where it is literally impossible to take a 4th because ur opponent went muta's shouldn't be in the mappool.
In my opinion ZvP needs to be tweaked a bit since the matchup has basically evolved in the Protoss trying to kill the Zerg between the 10-20 minute mark and if he fails at doing that the Zerg just wins.
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Vatican City State733 Posts
On February 03 2012 00:20 -TesteR- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 22:27 Louis8k8 wrote:Wtf, why the 41 : 59 PvZ ratio o___O. Is it that imbalanced? Has there ever been as severe imbalance as this in any MU since release? Is there' a ladder version? It might be less imbalanced. Biggest skew since release.
I suspect looking at ladder would make the statistics much more balanced though. Ladder maps tend to be far more Protoss favored than the large GSL maps. Honestly, I've never understood how people feel that they can relate these stats to their own ladder experiences. The map pools are so drastically different that it's hardly the same game
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Idra's oppinion surely stands strong, ZvP too hard xD
Btw it's only a month, take it as a friendly joke 
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On February 02 2012 23:01 cyclone25 wrote:
I like how the protoss posters on this thread are 100% ignoring the korean ZvP win rates.
Yeah agree, it's nice that people actually don't get stuck on statistically insignificant data. 
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EPT
