EPTWhy Battlecruisers Arent Used Often In Top Tier? - Page 3
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
SnipedSoul
Canada2158 Posts
| ||
|
Azzur
Australia6259 Posts
On January 31 2012 12:02 Gamegene wrote: It was only possible on Ryung also used it against Killer on Daybreak. Basically, in many TvP games, an impasse is sometimes reached where the person who attacks in an inferior position frequently loses. This would be a good time to transition to BCs. | ||
|
Quochobao
United States350 Posts
In TvT, battlecruiser is used late game (vs. mech) because the problem is no longer mobility but breaking stalemate. In other match-ups, where mobility is very much needed throughout the game, BC is just not great. | ||
|
Rockztar
Denmark210 Posts
First of all I'd like to take this quote: On January 31 2012 11:05 Lebzetu wrote: They are used in TvT. God knows why, since Vikings hard counter them and each terran is already massing vikings. In TvZ, if you go BC, you die to corruptor. In TvP, they go blink stalkers or void rays. I've found BCs to be extremely useful in TvT. In games such as on Shakura's Plateau they are really effective at breaking the siege lines. Banshees can do the same job to some extent, but are very susceptible to marines and missile turrets. BCs are very sturdy especially with armor upgrades, and can kill turrets off super fast with Yamato. In these cases I only get around 1-2-3 BCs. The most important thing is maintaining a higher viking number with better upgrades. It makes it really hard for the opposing terran to push you back, because siege tanks on the ground will cover against marines running up shooting your bcs. Obviously Thors and Ghosts don't do much to BCs besides a minor chunk of damage, and the potential of being EMP'ed. The rest Lebzetu says about TvZ and TvP is just useless bullshit(pardon the expression). You might as well just say "I don't get unit y because they die to unit x" in any case of these discussions. However, I feel like I've picked up on some reason as to why Battlecruisers aren't used very much in TvZ and TvP. Without implying balance issues I'll say that Protoss and Zerg have better options at adapting to certain tech switches in late game. I mean Terrans are often limited by add ons on their production facilities(Terran can only produce Ghosts out of the barracks that have tech labs, while Protoss can make high templars out of all their gateways). Along with this Protoss have Chronoboost that can improve the speed at which they go down a certain tech path(Gateways, Robotic Facilities and Stargates). Zergs are only limited by the amount of larvae they have as long as they have the tech building required to build their units. Obviously all races are limited by resources if anybody should be confused... This makes it a bit risky, in my opinion, to make Battlecruisers. They take 90 in-game seconds to make. That is quite a long time. Perhaps even the longest for any unit in the game I think(besides Carriers at 120 seconds that can be chronoboosted quite a bit by a Protoss on 3-4-5 bases)? They are, in fact, quite a bit comparable to Ultralisks before the buff on their morphing time. The long production time both makes them risky to get if you're building up an army, because they're expensive tech, and you won't have the food supply that you've invested in for 90 seconds. It makes it really hard to maintain pressure while attacking. If you have to back out, while sitting sieged up at a Zerg's expansion, because he's gonna be able to flood you in that 90 second window it's just a lot better to get the quickly built units. It's risky if you try to rebuild them after a lost big battle, because the opponent has a lot of room to do damage untill they come out, and then it might just be far too late. They have the Yamato-cannon which does a mindblowing 300 damage, but BCs are (still) so slow that it's very risky to try for example sniping tech structures or enemy mining locations with them. The cannon could be used in combat, but not only are BCs really easy to hit with feedbacks(cannons cost 125 energy, which takes a long time to gain unless you buy more expensive upgrades for the BCs) they also take additional APM to control. As a Terran I would like to say that personally I don't have the speed to do this. When I played versus a Protoss it would be neat if I was able to kite, dodge storms, EMP, snipe, control Vikings away from Stalkers, while blasting 300 damage against the Colossi or Archons with the Yamato, but I don't have the skill for it. I think it's asking a bit too much from a lot of Terrans. Same goes for against Zergs with the whole marine splitting, more Ghost and Viking control, Siege tank target firing and so on. I don't mean to whine or say that it's too hard to play Terran, I think a lot of players could do it with some practice and special techniques(you know, scanning before going in, and just click Yamato on enemy units while moving in etc.). Along with them they're very expensive (400 minerals, 300 gas). This makes them really hard to replenish especially if you lose a major battle. It feels a lot more safe replenishing with MMM, which builds a ton faster than super expensive BCs. Like I said before they're still very slow. A long with this they don't have that siege function in TvP and TvZ, which Brood Lords have. They're basically just a flying 6 food that could just as well be invested in Marines or Marauders that work just as well in combat, and are a lot quicker when it comes to harassment(which I personally find very valuable). The pros of BCs are pretty obvious imo. They do a decent DPS(though for a 6 food unit it doesn't seem particularly high to me). They can be used to punish Protoss armies that rely too heavily on Zealots. They make it easier to position your ground army seeing as how the supply gets tied up in air units, which gives you an easier time making your ground units attack due to the fact that they won't clump up as much behind each other etc. pretty obvious stuff. They can(like Brood Lords or Colossi or Storm and so on) catch an opponent unprepared if they lack AA. They can tank a good amount of damage, while Vikings do their thing in peace(BCs absorbing Stalker fire, while Vikings kill Colossi). If I missed out anything I'll edit it in. Hope you can use this answer.  | ||
|
LimeNade
United States2125 Posts
| ||
|
ke_ivan
Singapore374 Posts
In TvZ, i really can't see how BCs are useful. A murder of mutas will probably eat most BCs just because there's more of them and corruptors also do well against them. Not to mention in TvZ late game, there are always infestors. Against a late game Terran, zerg will most definitely have neural. In TvP, i suppose BCs could be a fairly viable option. They are good against stalkers. And if you have vikings, void rays might not be too too much of a problem. Templars though are a huge problem and far cheaper than BCs. So in addition to everything else, ghosts have to be made too. I mean this has to be at least a 5 base v 5 base scenario. I mean how many of us play games that last till then? I think BCs are just there to deter big air-to-ground tech switches (broodlords to ultra/ling; voidrays to zealot/archon; viking/raven/banshee to marine/marauder/tank) or soak damage. very rarely have i seen them used to gain better positioning or simply gotten for their firepower. It's like a flying thor, except more expensive. | ||
|
cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
| ||
|
sotaporo
Finland195 Posts
| ||
|
emc
United States3088 Posts
It's also unnecessary in TvP because of blink stalkers and feedback. Yeah void rays are OK but the terran is probably going to have a lot of marines since BC's are very gas intensive and you will have a lot of minerals floating. I could MAYBE see BC's working in this match up if you utilize ghosts correctly for snipe/emp on templar and marauders for stalkers but even then you'd need 4+ bases and would have to keep up with upgrades since protoss usually gets double ups in this match up. TvT they are the best late game unit. If you can get any kind of an air lead AT ALL with vikings then your BC's are pretty much uncontested. BC's are very good against marines, excellent against thors with yamato and can also 1 shot turrets and vikings with yamato. They are definitely used in this match up but again it's very hard to get to and often we see games end before then. I understand why you made this thread but it's a very expensive high tech unit so you can't blame pros for not using them when often games can end before then. | ||
|
Heston
Canada18 Posts
| ||
|
Mjolnir
912 Posts
It's a good thing they nerfed them. Wouldn't want to see them in the game or anything like that... | ||
|
v3chr0
United States856 Posts
TvT: If someone goes Battlecruiser, unless you aren't scouted, you will be countered by Vikings, very easily since even 1 or 2 vikings can start kiting your cruisers immediately. Battlecruisers in TvT will definitely require ravens, and the min number of vikings to 1 shot others. TvP: I can see the Mothership being good, but if the BCs are split, or multi-harass, I can see it getting very difficult for the Protoss. Stalkers, and Voidrays can kill BC's, but BCs are far more efficient, especially with Yamato. I forget if BCs use energy anymore, but if they do, High Templars can help a lot. TvZ: Mutas would probably get raped, unless you flew in, killed one BC, flew out, repeat. Corrupters would stand a good chance, I think they can kite BC's to some degree too, corruption will also help. Fungal Growth and Neural could probably destroy them very efficiently. Hydras... prbly the worst choice. Now, the question really is, what ELSE are they using with BC's? Cause I can see a good Raven/Viking count, with tanks + whatever else being really good, it's just going to take a late game to get you the proper support for BC's, which is why they're not used too often. Maybe one day someone will find the magic composition with BC's, and then people can use them earlier with less risk. | ||
|
anApple
Singapore275 Posts
| ||
|
TBone-
United States2309 Posts
| ||
|
dde
Canada796 Posts
| ||
|
FinalForm
United States450 Posts
If Player 1 possesses a viking advantage, then he can mix in some banshees to pick apart Player 2's tank lines. Player 2 can counter this by mixing thors or turrets into his tank line (or a little bit of both). Therefore to continue picking apart Player 2's tanklines, Player 1 can mix in some BCs, as thors do negligible damage to BCs. Turrets can be one-shotted with Yamato. This was true in the mega-game a couple months ago, however this may or may not be the case anymore or is debatable. This latest Code-S game, I believe is one of the few high-level games from the current metagame that we have for study of split-map TvT. This game was played this month. You'll need a GSL subscription to watch. Hot6ix GSL Code S Season 1 - Alive vs IMHappy Happy opens mech, Alive opens biotank, neither are able to kill eachother, so therefore the map is split. Both players build a respectable amount of turrets and vikings and ravens. Happy choses BCs while Alive does not. Alive pursues a methodical nuke push through the tank line protecting Happy's southern base. Alive also builds more ravens than Happy. Alive proceeds to win the game although I can't exactly pinpoint why. You can blame the BCs but there were a lot of variables in play. | ||
|
canikizu
4860 Posts
TvZ: Corruptor are toox2 effective. TvP: Can't kill stuffs fast enough and various timing from 2 sides make it hard to get to a decently threatening BC fleet. | ||
|
Abort Retry Fail
2636 Posts
| ||
|
kurrysauce
272 Posts
| ||
|
Bagration
United States18282 Posts
It's similar to the Carrier, which has a similar role in the protoss army as the collosus, but is generally a inferior unit to the collosus. | ||
| ||
