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Why Battlecruisers Arent Used Often In Top Tier? - Page 6

Forum Index > SC2 General
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ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3487 Posts
January 31 2012 17:02 GMT
#101
If you manage to optain air advantage in a bio vs mech game, which should be easy since, ur gonna have more bases. I can't see why BC's wouldn't be devastating.
Other than that, it will be too hard to reach a critical mass of BC's w/o getting stomped in the process. The critical mass does exist though.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
Kluey
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada1197 Posts
January 31 2012 17:04 GMT
#102
Tier 3 units for both Protoss and Terran are very weak but strong tier 1 units make up for it.
jliu
Profile Joined March 2011
282 Posts
January 31 2012 17:08 GMT
#103
They are quite good against thors especially since Thor dps is HORRIFIC. They're just too situational and you can often opt for other units that are cheaper and sometimes easier to resupply.
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
January 31 2012 17:09 GMT
#104
Fully upgraded battlecruisers are almost unkillable with ghost backup vs zerg. The biggest problem with the unit though is that while BCs are good with matching upgrades they aren't that good with no upgrades. So someone basically has to get full air upgrades before they are effective and that is WAAAY late into a game. If you wanted to get those upgrades early you would have way weaker siege tanks or marines and it's just not worth it.

It is actually ridiculously strong vs zerg, You have to have 30+ corruptors to counter 5 BC sice 10+ corruptors will die to snipes and yamato before the first BC falls. Also if you add vikings to the group the corruptors can't really wittle down BCs since they have low range.
Gyro_SC2
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada540 Posts
January 31 2012 17:09 GMT
#105
in pvt, mass air terran = BC in late game
QxC did that vs whitra
SeaSwift
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Scotland4486 Posts
January 31 2012 17:09 GMT
#106
On February 01 2012 02:04 Kluey wrote:
Tier 3 units for both Protoss and Terran are very weak but strong tier 1 units make up for it.


Wait, what? Mothership, Colossus, HT/Archon are all insanely strong. It's Stalkers/Sentries that get weak in lategame. Protoss relies on T3 units because their T1 units (apart from Chargelots) can't survive past midgame.
HackBenjamin
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada1094 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-31 17:33:17
January 31 2012 17:20 GMT
#107
On February 01 2012 02:00 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 01 2012 01:43 HackBenjamin wrote:
On February 01 2012 01:42 TeeTS wrote:
BC are good against Terrans, because there is no groundunit that is efficient against them, when there are equal upgrades between them.
But they are not used against Zerg/Protoss, because they are countered by units, that protoss/zerg make anyway in the matchup (High Templar, Infestor, Corruptor, Blink Stalker). That's the reason, quite simple.


I'm gonna tell you about a little something I like to call the Thor...

Are you seriously telling us that Thors are efficient against BattleCruisers? Thors are terrible against BattleCruisers. Given equal upgrades, Thors deal something like 4 dps to them...


edit: Removed, I was talking out my ass
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-31 17:24:22
January 31 2012 17:21 GMT
#108
I made a calculation of unit effectiveness taking into account stats, range, AoE, cost etc. and got the following numbers:

Battlecruiser 46.3
Marine (stim shield) 89.6
Seige tank 77.2
Banshee 43.6

These units got their overall effectiveness tweaked to account for fighting BCs:
Stalker 51.9
Void ray (charged) 45.9 (53)

Hydras 48.3
Corruptors 47.8 (counted the increased damage with the spell)

+ Show Spoiler +
The effectiveness number doesnt mean anything by itself (since its the squre root of the units core stats multiplied and divided by costs) but it does have meaning if you compare it to the number of some other unit. If some unit's effectiveness number is twice better than some others than it basicly means you need to have twice less resources invested in that army to have it the same strength. There are a lot of exceptions though for which i didnt account for: speed and mobility, ability to shoot air, ground or both and others.


So basicly the BCs are not much better or worse than the units supposed to counter it. But since other terran units have much better stats its prefferable to get those instead of BCs.
sabas123
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands3122 Posts
January 31 2012 17:23 GMT
#109
well, there getting a speed boost in hots so we might see bc harras?
The harder it becomes, the more you should focus on the basics.
blah_blah
Profile Joined April 2011
346 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-31 17:31:26
January 31 2012 17:28 GMT
#110
On January 31 2012 11:03 Psilo wrote:
The DPS on Battlecruisers is top 3 in the game, and that's without Yamato cannon.


The DPS per cost isn't anywhere near top 3 in the game though.

On February 01 2012 02:20 HackBenjamin wrote:
BC = 400 Min 300 Gas
Thor = 300 Min 200 Gas

BC = Yamato Cannon - 300 dmg
Thor = 250mm Strike Cannon - 500 dmg over 6 seconds

BC = Air-to-Ground Range - 6
Thor = Ground-Air-Range - 10


I'm understanding your disbelief, but take into account the range advantage, the cost difference, and the abilities. Properly used, I firmly believe that the Thor can be used efficiently in this matchup to counter Battlecruisers. I think it's how you use it.


Strike Cannon doesn't hit air, and battlecruisers have 3 base armor which literally cuts thor air DPS in half (already very low per cost against single targets). The thor air cooldown is also among the longest cooldowns in the game (in fact I think it is the longest, period). If you don't know these basic facts you probably shouldn't post in this thread.
HackBenjamin
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada1094 Posts
January 31 2012 17:32 GMT
#111
On February 01 2012 02:28 blah_blah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 31 2012 11:03 Psilo wrote:
The DPS on Battlecruisers is top 3 in the game, and that's without Yamato cannon.


The DPS per cost isn't anywhere near top 3 in the game though.

Show nested quote +
On February 01 2012 02:20 HackBenjamin wrote:
BC = 400 Min 300 Gas
Thor = 300 Min 200 Gas

BC = Yamato Cannon - 300 dmg
Thor = 250mm Strike Cannon - 500 dmg over 6 seconds

BC = Air-to-Ground Range - 6
Thor = Ground-Air-Range - 10


I'm understanding your disbelief, but take into account the range advantage, the cost difference, and the abilities. Properly used, I firmly believe that the Thor can be used efficiently in this matchup to counter Battlecruisers. I think it's how you use it.


Strike Cannon doesn't hit air, and battlecruisers have 3 base armor which literally cuts thor air DPS in half (already very low per cost against single targets). The thor air cooldown is also among the longest cooldowns in the game (in fact I think it is the longest, period). If you don't know these basic facts you probably shouldn't post in this thread.


You are correct I'll remove my posts
statikg
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada930 Posts
January 31 2012 17:33 GMT
#112
On February 01 2012 02:20 HackBenjamin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 01 2012 02:00 TheDwf wrote:
On February 01 2012 01:43 HackBenjamin wrote:
On February 01 2012 01:42 TeeTS wrote:
BC are good against Terrans, because there is no groundunit that is efficient against them, when there are equal upgrades between them.
But they are not used against Zerg/Protoss, because they are countered by units, that protoss/zerg make anyway in the matchup (High Templar, Infestor, Corruptor, Blink Stalker). That's the reason, quite simple.


I'm gonna tell you about a little something I like to call the Thor...

Are you seriously telling us that Thors are efficient against BattleCruisers? Thors are terrible against BattleCruisers. Given equal upgrades, Thors deal something like 4 dps to them...


BC = 400 Min 300 Gas
Thor = 300 Min 200 Gas

BC = Yamato Cannon - 300 dmg
Thor = 250mm Strike Cannon - 500 dmg over 6 seconds

BC = Air-to-Ground Range - 6
Thor = Ground-Air-Range - 10


I'm understanding your disbelief, but take into account the range advantage, the cost difference, and the abilities. Properly used, I firmly believe that the Thor can be used efficiently in this matchup to counter Battlecruisers. I think it's how you use it.


Lol you can't use strike cannon against air but I think that thors can SITUATIONALLY cuonter BCs. If you have superior +1 upgrades to the BCs armor upgrades in large numbers thors can really kill bcs which tend to clump up alot.
Entteri
Profile Joined August 2011
Finland108 Posts
January 31 2012 17:34 GMT
#113
On February 01 2012 02:20 HackBenjamin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 01 2012 02:00 TheDwf wrote:
On February 01 2012 01:43 HackBenjamin wrote:
On February 01 2012 01:42 TeeTS wrote:
BC are good against Terrans, because there is no groundunit that is efficient against them, when there are equal upgrades between them.
But they are not used against Zerg/Protoss, because they are countered by units, that protoss/zerg make anyway in the matchup (High Templar, Infestor, Corruptor, Blink Stalker). That's the reason, quite simple.


I'm gonna tell you about a little something I like to call the Thor...

Are you seriously telling us that Thors are efficient against BattleCruisers? Thors are terrible against BattleCruisers. Given equal upgrades, Thors deal something like 4 dps to them...


BC = 400 Min 300 Gas
Thor = 300 Min 200 Gas

BC = Yamato Cannon - 300 dmg
Thor = 250mm Strike Cannon - 500 dmg over 6 seconds

BC = Air-to-Ground Range - 6
Thor = Ground-Air-Range - 10


I'm understanding your disbelief, but take into account the range advantage, the cost difference, and the abilities. Properly used, I firmly believe that the Thor can be used efficiently in this matchup to counter Battlecruisers. I think it's how you use it.

Thors are countered by BCs and assuming somewhat standard unit copositions countering thors is the only reason to ever build a BC. I don't know why you brought up strike cannon which can't even hit air. Also thor's range vs BCs is really pointless since they simply do so little damage that you dont have to care if you get hit. The reason is Thor's multiple low-damage anti-air missiles and BC's high armor. In TvT every other unit but thors are going to be killed by tanks and vikings. Tanks obviously kill thors too, but the problem is you can't take advantage of your air dominance without taking hits from thors.
chadissilent
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada1187 Posts
January 31 2012 17:34 GMT
#114
On January 31 2012 11:08 Psilo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 31 2012 11:06 JagerGard wrote:
O_O MVP used Battlecruisers to great effect in TvT when he went mech, particularly against MarineKing in GSL January and the Super Tournament.
Other than that I have nothing else to say, I don't use battlecruisers much.

EDIT: Also not sure if trolling.

Im not trolling. I watched all 152 matches in recent GSL up'and'downs and Code S ro.32 this month, and in only 2 games out of the 152, a fusion core was built. And one of those 2 was the hilarious accident that (Gumiho i think?) did, when he was meaning to build a factory in that spot. The recent terran GSL play is the reason for this thread.

That was vileIllusion vs FXOLucky in IPL TAC, not GSL. The most recent ONOG finals, vileIllusion and Kas got into a long game on Bel-shir and after a long base trade/stabilization period, Kas busted out a few BCs to snipe tanks and ended up winning the game.
yoigen
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany369 Posts
January 31 2012 17:38 GMT
#115
why would you make battlecruisers if you can MAKE MARINES?
Today I didn't even have to use my AK, I gotta say it was a good day.
Entteri
Profile Joined August 2011
Finland108 Posts
January 31 2012 17:59 GMT
#116
On February 01 2012 02:33 statikg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 01 2012 02:20 HackBenjamin wrote:
On February 01 2012 02:00 TheDwf wrote:
On February 01 2012 01:43 HackBenjamin wrote:
On February 01 2012 01:42 TeeTS wrote:
BC are good against Terrans, because there is no groundunit that is efficient against them, when there are equal upgrades between them.
But they are not used against Zerg/Protoss, because they are countered by units, that protoss/zerg make anyway in the matchup (High Templar, Infestor, Corruptor, Blink Stalker). That's the reason, quite simple.


I'm gonna tell you about a little something I like to call the Thor...

Are you seriously telling us that Thors are efficient against BattleCruisers? Thors are terrible against BattleCruisers. Given equal upgrades, Thors deal something like 4 dps to them...


BC = 400 Min 300 Gas
Thor = 300 Min 200 Gas

BC = Yamato Cannon - 300 dmg
Thor = 250mm Strike Cannon - 500 dmg over 6 seconds

BC = Air-to-Ground Range - 6
Thor = Ground-Air-Range - 10


I'm understanding your disbelief, but take into account the range advantage, the cost difference, and the abilities. Properly used, I firmly believe that the Thor can be used efficiently in this matchup to counter Battlecruisers. I think it's how you use it.


Lol you can't use strike cannon against air but I think that thors can SITUATIONALLY cuonter BCs. If you have superior +1 upgrades to the BCs armor upgrades in large numbers thors can really kill bcs which tend to clump up alot.

I'm pretty sure that BCs are still easily cost effecient against pure thors. With Yamato Cannon especially. Obviously they still lose if you clump them up on purpose, but anything is going to lose like that. Thors have their place in viking vs viking wars. They are good in viking thor vs viking BC fights, but that's simply because they allow your vikings to overpower his and counter those BCs.
aaycumi
Profile Joined March 2011
England265 Posts
January 31 2012 18:07 GMT
#117
Cost wise BCs are 50 minerals more than Thors, seriously, Its the build time, it takes too long and suffer the same problem as Hydralisks they are too slow. Occasionally used in TvT but that should be shown for what it is a Sky Terran style that relies on high Viking count and then BCs are just a meat tank.

ZvT, 2 Corruptors to a BC is not considered worth it as Terrans have to push aggressively to deny additional expansions of Zerg how do BCs help this?
PvT, mass Stalker is the standard, Marine Marauder is the standard counter how do BCs assist the high mobility and harass strength of MMM or the damage output of ghosts?

Its just not the metagame style BCs dont fit in anywhere except for TvT.
Motoorhead
Profile Joined September 2011
Poland67 Posts
January 31 2012 18:14 GMT
#118
Going mass BC against zerg isn't good idea because of neural parasite. If player A make 20 battlecruisers, player B will make 11 infestors which is pretty much hard counter to it.

BC cost >> Infestor cost.
If you never stop - failure is not an option.
acrimoneyius
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States983 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-31 18:25:06
January 31 2012 18:24 GMT
#119
Upgraded battlecruisers in TvT are absolutely the correct choice.
Mass vikings are good against them, but vikings can't kill turrets...BC's can.

Marine/Tank/Ghost in TvZ is so efficient that battlecruisers are almost a waste of money (but not necessarily bad, just very unnecessary).

In PvT, feedback, voidrays, blink stalkers, etc, make them a less than ideal choice. Boxer vs HasuObs in the NASL is a classic example of why they are bad in the matchup.



The new ability in HotS should revive their usage.
ArcticRaven
Profile Joined August 2011
France1406 Posts
January 31 2012 18:35 GMT
#120
Would you rather have 2 banshees or 1 battlecruiser ? Banshees are just better in tvt.
[Govie] Wierd shit, on a 6 game AP winning streak with KOTL in the trench. I searched gandalf quotes and spammed them all game long, trenchwarfare247, whateva it takes!
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