EPTOn January 26 2012 14:41 Medrea wrote:
"Ghost EMP is too weak"
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"Ghost EMP is too weak"
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Yes, we know, terran is op. That's why you lose ladder games, not because your lack of skill but because emp is too good.
Questions from the Community - David Kim - Page 14
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
Yes, we know, terran is op. That's why you lose ladder games, not because your lack of skill but because emp is too good. | ||
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SwizzY
United States1549 Posts
DA FUQ? I don't understand why DK doesn't derive the bulk of his questions from a place like... oh I don't know... TEAMLIQUID - The largest international starcraft hub available?! I see threadworthy topics every other week concerning SC2 - none of which were addressed in this Q&A | ||
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INTOtheVOID
United States225 Posts
Mass Mutalisks vs. Protoss Carrier Removal in Heart of the Swarm Nydus Worm is Too Inconsistent — Make It More Like the Overlord Transport All the rest are hardly an issue, some of them even completely wrong. EMP too weak? Not only is EMP still an extremely powerful spell, but it should be researched in my opinion...Protoss has to research storm and Zerg has to research NP, yet ghosts start out with both Snipe and EMP. I'm not whining about IMBA but come on...at the very least EMP sure as hell doesn't deserve to be strengthened anymore. | ||
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
On January 26 2012 14:58 SwizzY wrote: "terran can't beat protoss" DA FUQ? I don't understand why DK doesn't derive the bulk of his questions from a place like... oh I don't know... TEAMLIQUID - The largest international starcraft hub available?! I see threadworthy topics every other week concerning SC2 - none of which were addressed in this Q&A Actually there were multiple threads about terran. one being "fundamental problems with terran" where people discussed how terran is great high level, but low level it kinda sucks. the whole "terran can't beat protoss" thing comes from low level (masters or below) terrans that can't beat the protoss death ball. | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
On January 26 2012 14:58 SwizzY wrote: "terran can't beat protoss" DA FUQ? I don't understand why DK doesn't derive the bulk of his questions from a place like... oh I don't know... TEAMLIQUID - The largest international starcraft hub available?! I see threadworthy topics every other week concerning SC2 - none of which were addressed in this Q&A The fact that he addressed questions like "Terran can't win against protoss" really gives me an aneurysm. Blizzard is so out of touch with the community when they obtain silly questions like that from the spamfest that is battle.net forum. | ||
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SyX
Australia5 Posts
Certainly a balanced game should probably have a close to even distribution of results at the highest level, but there are many ways to balance a game. Now I do not claim to have a flawless understanding of the current balance and metagame, but bear with me and view the following as an example (not necessarily correct, clearly exaggerated, and clearly over simplified) designed to illustrate a flaw in the logic of parts of the community. Consider the case of mass Mutalisk against Protoss: Suppose that a Mutalisk ball of some critical mass becomes near impossible to defeat by an equally skilled Protoss player. Top level Protoss players realize that in order to beat this strategy they must do an early 2 base timing designed to win outright against a Mutalisk teching Zerg. Suppose that Zergs doing this Mutalisk strategy have a 50% chance of surviving the timing attack. What happens now? Well the game is effectively decided in this battle. If the Zerg survives then he will get his "unbeatable" muta ball up and surely win the game. So in this case, PvZ has a 50% winrate and is "balanced", but isn't it dull to know the outcome after the protoss attack? Isn't it dull to spend the next 15 minutes watching the Zerg slowly but inevitably pick the Protoss apart? So what is the solution in this case (assuming that mutalisk play is desired)? Somehow give Zerg a minor buff to their early game which makes them much more likely to survive until the late game, but then buff the Protoss response to this lategame option. Done correctly, PvZ is still a 50% game, but it becomes much more dynamic and varied. I am not going to be so naive to suggest that I know how either race should be changed, but in my opinion, a tier 3 unit that takes years to manufacture, shares no useful tech with the rest of the protoss army, and cannot defend a base because it is too expensive to have more than 2, and too slow to defend multiple locations is definitely not the correct response. | ||
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GohgamX
Canada1096 Posts
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
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Chengakz
United States163 Posts
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Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
What this change means is that they dont like the idea of an unkillable death ball no matter how difficult it is to get. Players should always have at least some small percent chance of victory until the game is over. IMO this is EXCELLENT. They hinted at this view with how they dealt with the toss death ball. At the time it almost made me laugh that people were upset when toss couldnt be killed when they had 200/200 all voidrays/collo/mothership/blink stalker. Such an army is impossibly expensive and slow to produce vs any skilled player, but in retrospect that shouldnt matter. This isnt civilization, there should not be a technology alternate win condition no matter how hard it is to get. | ||
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ThomasHobbes
United States197 Posts
On January 26 2012 15:21 Chengakz wrote: "In fact, zerg is not struggling at any level of play, and their win ratio compared to skill is extremely solid at every skill level."---- finally, someone credible says it....i think pro zerg players know in their hearts their race is not the weakest,otherwise, why rely on zerg for their livelihood.... I notice that it's always the one who loses who complain about balance...yet taht same person you dont hear complaining when he wins. Yes, there are some inconsistencies...but overall, it is a great game. Promote esports, not give it a bad image. Yes, why does anyone play Protoss for their livelihood, when Kim himself says they're not up to par? -> Poor Argument. Kim admits that, in Korea, Terrans are winning the most tournaments; this trend has been pretty consistent, Terrans tend to dominate on that stage. It also happens that the Korean scene is recognizably "better" than their foreign competition, only a few select foreigners are capable of competing in Code S level play. So, when analyzing the highest skilled pool of professional players, Terrans win the most. This is not indicative of total balance, but rather what Kim himself admits earlier, lower ranked Terrans (and to a certain extent, foreigner Terrans) are not good enough to exploit the strengths of their race. When micro is exploited on a much higher level, Terrans tend to win the majority of tournaments. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
The Same thing has been happening forever; they patch something right after people start figuring it out. I believe SaSe crushed almost every terran (including probably the best TvP on the planet at that time, STBomber) at one MLG right before the EMP nerf when people were complaining about PvT being "unwinnable" lategame, all with long ass macro games with ghosts involved. We saw HerO start crushing zergs with warp prism harass at a time where every protoss was complaining about the matchup right before a big balance patch.I think the balance right now is good and and I hope they don't overreact and fuck it up, and honestly I feel if there isn't overwhelming data over a very long period of time (around a year), they just shouldn't touch the game balance and just let people figure it out for themselves. | ||
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Lorizean
Germany1330 Posts
I noticed that some players were worried that we don’t take the community’s feedback into account, and that we only listen to pro players. [...] our player community remains a vital source of feedback about StarCraft II Well, that just concerns me. They SHOULD only listen to pro players and not some random b.net forum whiner. | ||
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itsjuspeter
United States668 Posts
On January 26 2012 15:55 Arisen wrote: Most of these questions are shit. The only one I think is legit is the muta zvp, which I believe is an overraction based on a newish trend in the matchup that hasn't fully been adapted to. I believe that alot of these answers are scary. Where do they come up that zerg does the best in foregin tourneys and protoss does the worst? Sure, stephano and Dimaga win a bit, but there have been 3 protoss on top of tlpd for the longest fucking time with protoss almost always on top (foreigners). I don't like them thinking so much about buffing or nerfing based on stuff that happens suddenly. The Same thing has been happening forever; they patch something right after people start figuring it out. I believe SaSe crushed almost every terran (including probably the best TvP on the planet at that time, STBomber) at one MLG right before the EMP nerf when people were complaining about PvT being "unwinnable" lategame, all with long ass macro games with ghosts involved. We saw HerO start crushing zergs with warp prism harass at a time where every protoss was complaining about the matchup right before a big balance patch.I think the balance right now is good and and I hope they don't overreact and fuck it up, and honestly I feel if there isn't overwhelming data over a very long period of time (around a year), they just shouldn't touch the game balance and just let people figure it out for themselves. I really hope you don't talk about the TLPD being a viable source for protoss consistency as there are barely any protoss, not a single one until the 10th slot in the korean standings which is the ONLY standings I will even consider using as evidence. I agree that maybe more time needs to be given for people to figure out how to counteract some builds but as stated before in a post above me, what if A) the zerg's muta ball is really unbeatable B) protoss timing attacking before crit muta mass becomes standard C) It all comes down to that timing attack and after that it is over with (50% chance for each side), the stats may say its balanced, but then this is flawed game design. The reason i bring this up is the problem is we have to figure out if the CHANGE is NECESSARY, not necessarily giving any change x amount of time before implementing it to make it legit. If a change is necessary, then hell I'd implement it asap than wait a grueling year for people to never figure something out. | ||
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kinglemon
Germany199 Posts
On January 26 2012 16:07 Lorizean wrote: Well, that just concerns me. They SHOULD only listen to pro players and not some random b.net forum whiner. well a lot of pros have proven that they don't have to have a understanding of good balance. there is probably good and bad suggestions in every segment of players. | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
They could solve the PvZ muta issue by making maps that had no empty space behind the base. Seriously, I would love to see these maps implemented and watch as everyone's jaws drop at how much a difference it makes. It's so much easier to defend 180 degrees than it is to defend 360 degrees. EDIT: Incoming balance nerfs as a knee-jerk reaction to new trends in the game that people haven't fully adapted to. Just sayin'. | ||
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Zanno
United States1484 Posts
retire phoenix invent corphoenisair that has corsair attack and phoenix spell done  | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On January 26 2012 16:15 itsjuspeter wrote: I really hope you don't talk about the TLPD being a viable source for protoss consistency as there are barely any protoss, not a single one until the 10th slot in the korean standings which is the ONLY standings I will even consider using as evidence. I agree that maybe more time needs to be given for people to figure out how to counteract some builds but as stated before in a post above me, what if A) the zerg's muta ball is really unbeatable B) protoss timing attacking before crit muta mass becomes standard C) It all comes down to that timing attack and after that it is over with (50% chance for each side), the stats may say its balanced, but then this is flawed game design. The reason i bring this up is the problem is we have to figure out if the CHANGE is NECESSARY, not necessarily giving any change x amount of time before implementing it to make it legit. If a change is necessary, then hell I'd implement it asap than wait a grueling year for people to never figure something out. Only taking korean records into account is obtuse. We've seen foreigner protoss beat the best TvP available at a time where no korean protoss could. As to implementing sooner rather than later, you already said, what IF. If is big; we can't know until there's been a long time to support it. People "knew" you couldn't open up spire versus protoss because of the phoeni buff, then the gateway all-in metagame, etc. People "knew" you couldn't beat a protoss deathball with zerg, people"knew" you couldn't be aggressive with small amounts of units versus zerg asprotoss, people "knew" you couldn't go roach/hydra. People "knew" all kinds of shit for a long time that ended up being wrong. After the bisu build protoss win rates were way better than zerg's for like a year and a quarter, and before that zergs were killing protoss for a long ass time. People will find new ways to beat stuff if you give them time. Patching something because you THINK things may end uplike that is a bad reason. | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
On January 26 2012 17:09 Arisen wrote: Only taking korean records into account is obtuse. We've seen foreigner protoss beat the best TvP available at a time where no korean protoss could. As to implementing sooner rather than later, you already said, what IF. If is big; we can't know until there's been a long time to support it. People "knew" you couldn't open up spire versus protoss because of the phoeni buff, then the gateway all-in metagame, etc. People "knew" you couldn't beat a protoss deathball with zerg, people"knew" you couldn't be aggressive with small amounts of units versus zerg asprotoss, people "knew" you couldn't go roach/hydra. People "knew" all kinds of shit for a long time that ended up being wrong. After the bisu build protoss win rates were way better than zerg's for like a year and a quarter, and before that zergs were killing protoss for a long ass time. People will find new ways to beat stuff if you give them time. Patching something because you THINK things may end uplike that is a bad reason. I agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, Blizzard does not. | ||
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