EPTAbout the muta stuff, while phoenixes are good counter, mutas can come just as a tech switch, while P cant do the same. So if you didnt open phoenix, switching tech to phoenixes is gonna be hell once mutas are out. Remember, z can make every larvae a muta, while P can make 1 phoenix at a time froma single stargate. It feels very fragile as well.
Questions from the Community - David Kim - Page 20
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andiCR
Costa Rica2273 Posts
About the muta stuff, while phoenixes are good counter, mutas can come just as a tech switch, while P cant do the same. So if you didnt open phoenix, switching tech to phoenixes is gonna be hell once mutas are out. Remember, z can make every larvae a muta, while P can make 1 phoenix at a time froma single stargate. It feels very fragile as well. | ||
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xTrim
472 Posts
Colossi -> vikings Templars -> ghosts Zea Archon -> mass mariens with ghosts THe problem is that terrans don't have that same ability... to FORCE toss to do something... Oh he's making thors?? More zealots... or more Colossi.. or let me feedback them.... etc etc.. u get the point?? toss doenst have the "oh shit he's making THIS, i'd better do THAT and pray he doesn't push now and kill me" moment | ||
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Condor Hero
United States2931 Posts
On January 28 2012 04:18 xTrim wrote: The problem with TvP is that toss has at least 3 ways to force a transition out of terrans.. Therefore, if terran fails to switch their comp based on that, its over. Period. Colossi -> vikings Templars -> ghosts Zea Archon -> mass mariens with ghosts THe problem is that terrans don't have that same ability... to FORCE toss to do something... Oh he's making thors?? More zealots... or more Colossi.. or let me feedback them.... etc etc.. u get the point?? toss doenst have the "oh shit he's making THIS, i'd better do THAT and pray he doesn't push now and kill me" moment Stim timings? Drops? 1-1-1? Once Terrans get a lot of vikings or ghosts it actually does force Protoss to switch back to the other. | ||
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Masq
Canada1792 Posts
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Lorch
Germany3711 Posts
On January 28 2012 04:18 xTrim wrote: The problem with TvP is that toss has at least 3 ways to force a transition out of terrans.. Therefore, if terran fails to switch their comp based on that, its over. Period. Colossi -> vikings Templars -> ghosts Zea Archon -> mass mariens with ghosts THe problem is that terrans don't have that same ability... to FORCE toss to do something... Oh he's making thors?? More zealots... or more Colossi.. or let me feedback them.... etc etc.. u get the point?? toss doenst have the "oh shit he's making THIS, i'd better do THAT and pray he doesn't push now and kill me" moment You do realize that the switches do happen on both sides right? Toss doesn't only switch tech because he is like "lol lets hope he makes too much x" but also because at a certain point colossi start to just melt away if you keep making them and T keeps making Vikings, you gotta stop at some point, so yes certain masses of vikings actually force P into making ht as an example. Also stim + medivacs forces splash damage units because P has no other way of dealing with it otherwise. Once the ghost count is to damn high you will want to have colossi. Now we could both probably go on about this forever, but to say that toss is forcing only while terran has to react all the time is just straight up wrong and shows that you only see the matchup from the terrans pov, which is in my opinion why most players opinion of balance is just way to biased anyways. | ||
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Kergy
Peru2011 Posts
The game needs a bit more time to be figured out and for new strategies to be developed, you can't try to force this by patching the game every few months with diamond-level balance :/ | ||
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HiSi
United States68 Posts
You do realize that the switches do happen on both sides right? . I think this is the most important concept we can all take out of this balance argument. | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On January 28 2012 04:45 Kergy wrote: It sacres me when he says that they base their balance decisions on the 'player community'. Balancing should only be based on the absolute top pro players imo; the average player doesn't need a more balanced game, if he/she's not a pro it's probably because some aspect of his/her play is lacking, not because of imbalance. The game needs a bit more time to be figured out and for new strategies to be developed, you can't try to force this by patching the game every few months with diamond-level balance :/ I very much agree with you. If you read b.net forums, or hell even TL forums you'll find threads on EVERYTHING being OP. from funny/terrible ones like "mutas are OP "roaches are OP" "stalkers are OP" to pathetic ones like "queens are OP" and even more pathetic threads such as "I'm stuck in gold because my race is too weak." The community should not be trusted on anything balance related, because the community as a whole is full of whiny crybabies who don't know shit about the game but convince themselves that they do. I really think balance should just be balanced at the top level, because if it's balanced at the top then it will be balanced below as well since the way for a lower level player to get to a more balanced point will be to just get better. | ||
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xTrim
472 Posts
On January 28 2012 04:37 Lorch wrote: You do realize that the switches do happen on both sides right? Toss doesn't only switch tech because he is like "lol lets hope he makes too much x" but also because at a certain point colossi start to just melt away if you keep making them and T keeps making Vikings, you gotta stop at some point, so yes certain masses of vikings actually force P into making ht as an example. Also stim + medivacs forces splash damage units because P has no other way of dealing with it otherwise. Once the ghost count is to damn high you will want to have colossi. Now we could both probably go on about this forever, but to say that toss is forcing only while terran has to react all the time is just straight up wrong and shows that you only see the matchup from the terrans pov, which is in my opinion why most players opinion of balance is just way to biased anyways. This is not the point. I agree that terrans can keep building their MMM and if toss doesnt do something else besides gateway units (apart from dts and temps, ofc) they will lose. But what I'm saying, and it's quite true, it is considered an all-in to tech to ghosts in two bases, while teching to colossi/storm/etc is considered standard play. Get the point?? If terran gets its only viable AOE unit without it being for a specific counter, it is all-in. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3711 Posts
On January 28 2012 05:38 xTrim wrote: This is not the point. I agree that terrans can keep building their MMM and if toss doesnt do something else besides gateway units (apart from dts and temps, ofc) they will lose. But what I'm saying, and it's quite true, it is considered an all-in to tech to ghosts in two bases, while teching to colossi/storm/etc is considered standard play. Get the point?? If terran gets its only viable AOE unit without it being for a specific counter, it is all-in. Did you seriously just say that building a ghost academy while having 2 bases is an allin? Really? If you truly do believe that than I'd probably have a hard time explaining you anything about the game, wow I think for the sake of my look upon humanity I'll just call you a troll and leave it at that. What you think of going ghost is in reality a strong timing push, you know doing a 2 base colossi timing is also a lot more on the allin side, so is rushing to psi storm to hit a certain timing. I think your problem is that terran can't go "lol I'll just a build these dudezzz and don't care what my opponnent does", at the same time there are a lot of similiar situations with protoss where you can't just build whatever you want while ignoring what terran does. I guess you think protoss can do whatever they want and you are mad that you actually have to scout and react accordingly in this game? Guess I should start bitching that I can't do a 3 immortal push when Terran goes for very quick medivacs. | ||
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OrD
United States28 Posts
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
On January 28 2012 05:38 xTrim wrote: This is not the point. I agree that terrans can keep building their MMM and if toss doesnt do something else besides gateway units (apart from dts and temps, ofc) they will lose. But what I'm saying, and it's quite true, it is considered an all-in to tech to ghosts in two bases, while teching to colossi/storm/etc is considered standard play. Get the point?? If terran gets its only viable AOE unit without it being for a specific counter, it is all-in. Interesting... So, despite the fact that I can produce ghosts from 4 barracks when on 2 bases, producing them off 1, maybe 2 barracks is all-in? Wow, this is groundbreaking. | ||
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Jaybles
United States22 Posts
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MinimalistSC2
United States121 Posts
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On January 28 2012 04:18 xTrim wrote: The problem with TvP is that toss has at least 3 ways to force a transition out of terrans.. Therefore, if terran fails to switch their comp based on that, its over. Period. Colossi -> vikings Templars -> ghosts Zea Archon -> mass mariens with ghosts THe problem is that terrans don't have that same ability... to FORCE toss to do something... Oh he's making thors?? More zealots... or more Colossi.. or let me feedback them.... etc etc.. u get the point?? toss doenst have the "oh shit he's making THIS, i'd better do THAT and pray he doesn't push now and kill me" moment I'm sorry, but this is stupid. If terran opens ghosts (like puma) then HT tech and immortals and sentries are all bad juju and the protoss player is "forced" to go colossus. If there was any point in terran opening vikings then protoss would be forced to get HT archon/zealot and avoid colosus. The biggest problem is there are only 2 tech options that worth anything at all for protoss, HT and colosus. If protoss don't get one or the other they just lose, so no matter what protoss are going to want to get 5-ish colosus, 9 or so HT and a regular death ball of stalker/zealot/archon. Unfortunately protoss air units are almost universally bad vs marines/vikings in a macro game, so you're going to get robo/templar every game. On January 30 2012 07:54 MinimalistSC2 wrote: "changing the protoss phoenix seems like it could be the best approach. Still, due to the significant impact it could have on all protoss match ups, we’re being very careful." I feel like it would be ok... Pheonix are pretty strong as a PvP opener. Maybe make their air attack stronger but the lift cost more energy with a starting energy increase from fleet beacon? Shouldn't be too hard to balance... | ||
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