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I always play SC2 with a group of friends. Some of us (including me) like to spend time reading new BO's, watching VOD's, and practicing mechanics. Nothing fancy, enough to keep us in the 1vs1 gold league. Others just like to play (really) casually, rumbling in the bronze.
After a year or so, this has resulted in a skill gap that's large enough to make any 2vs2/3vs3 among ourselves feel "unwinnable" for the bronzies. We always try to make "even" teams, and we've experimented with team monobattles, handicaps, and other restrictions to keep the game more balanced/fun. But in the end the bronzies usually feel like they haven't done anything significant, up to a point where some even consider quitting SC2. And that would really suck 
Do you guys have any tricks to keep the game "level" between players with varying skills? Maps that work out better then others under these circumstances? Maybe I'm not using the handicap settings correctly (they seem to be made for this very use case, right?).
Thanks in advance!
Edit: thanks for the suggestions! I'm gonna give shared control a spin, might lead to hilarious situations and it functions both as a practice tool for the lesser player ("Hm, a Raven! Let's try some hunter-seeker magic!") and as a handicap for the better player ("Crap! Where's that raven I put on patrol for darkies?")
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I have the same problem with some friends, but there's not much you can do. SC2 is an extremely skillbased game with a very high skill ceiling and like a fighting game, it's boring as crap to play against players much better than you since they need extreme handicaps to make it fair.
The only thing you can do is try to push your friends to get better instead of giving up, getting to gold league isn't hard.
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What I do for cases like such, is just plain have fun with the game. Don't take the game so serious when playing with friends. For example, if I know I'm playing one of my friends in a fun match, I try to do something new and have fun playing around with it. Or I sometimes off race which that in itself will lessen the skill gap. Just try to throw monkey wretches into your play and see if you can maybe think of something that you might want to actually try to use in your "real" games.
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What I prefer to do is put pressure while they macro up and help them make the bigger macro or attack decisions.
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Off race for the better players, play custom maps like phantom, desert strike.
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Maybe share control? Try having the bronze players actually make attacking decisions, but the better players control production cycles and scouting. Then both parties would have strong macro and strategic information, and the bronze players could skip right to the fun part (for them), smashing things into other things.
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On January 17 2012 22:19 Iranon wrote:
Maybe share control? Try having the bronze players actually make attacking decisions, but the better players control production cycles and scouting. Then both parties would have strong macro and strategic information, and the bronze players could skip right to the fun part (for them), smashing things into other things.
Yea, they shall keep stuck and never improve! Sounds logical.
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1) teach them, coach them, obs their games vs their peers, teach them cheeses and tricks
2) playing games vs them while the more skilled player offraces
3) 1 good player vs 2 bad players (done this in the past in broodwar, lots of fun), combine with off racing if it becomes to hard
4) ffa are fun, or mass island maps ffa with AI or 1 vs 1 with AI, etc
5) play versus on a fastest possi map or other money map where macro is less of a deal
6) play team games together 2v2, 3v3, 5v5, try fun combo's and cheeses.
Hope these are some nice things to try
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I play ladder with them (2v2s/3v3s/4v4s). If you have more than 4 at any given time, you can either play random customs, or you can try makings teams like 2v3 ect, or add in appropriate level bots to even out teams.
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On January 17 2012 22:27 YipMan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 22:19 Iranon wrote:
Maybe share control? Try having the bronze players actually make attacking decisions, but the better players control production cycles and scouting. Then both parties would have strong macro and strategic information, and the bronze players could skip right to the fun part (for them), smashing things into other things. Yea, they shall keep stuck and never improve! Sounds logical.
Well the thing is, they do not want to improve. They are not playing sc2 to go up in ranks, they are ok with bronze.
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play customs. star strikers is a great one with friends. you could play one of the DOTA mods if there is 5 of you?
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i offrace against my friends and try to prod them for what they want to play against
if they think they can almost counter one of my strategies i keep using that, work on my micro/macro execution instead of my strategy, if they despair then i do something else.
just don't ask them directly or the whole thing might become a bit fake for them, depending on how they look at the game
also, we 2v2 but i don't really like 2v2 'cause it's so full of crap
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On January 17 2012 22:13 Tobberoth wrote:
I have the same problem with some friends, but there's not much you can do. SC2 is an extremely skillbased game with a very high skill ceiling and like a fighting game, it's boring as crap to play against players much better than you since they need extreme handicaps to make it fair.
The only thing you can do is try to push your friends to get better instead of giving up, getting to gold league isn't hard.
I say it's boring as crap to play vs players much worse than you. Though this might only be so from the perspective of a person wanting to improve their game.
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Can't do really much, just ladder 4v4 with skype with troll strats. Manner pylons EVERYWHERE!
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On January 17 2012 22:36 Josh111 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 22:27 YipMan wrote:On January 17 2012 22:19 Iranon wrote:
Maybe share control? Try having the bronze players actually make attacking decisions, but the better players control production cycles and scouting. Then both parties would have strong macro and strategic information, and the bronze players could skip right to the fun part (for them), smashing things into other things. Yea, they shall keep stuck and never improve! Sounds logical. Well the thing is, they do not want to improve. They are not playing sc2 to go up in ranks, they are ok with bronze.
Well, honestly you can't resist improving if you do something repeatedly. And if you can't take the advice to build more workers or to build a gateway at 13 instead of building it at 18 supply, what's the point playing then?
From Bronze to Diamond it's really just about macro, it does not really matter that much what units you build, just keep the money low...
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If you're playing inhouses, try playing some exotic maps. In BW this was achieved with BGH (big game hunters). 4 teams of 2 players means that even the highest skilled players can get absolutely stomped early on (and come back :D). Custom games are another great way to play with lesser skilled players. Alot of the time these people dont want to play melee because they dont want to learn or put effort in, but they will play a custom.
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in your matchmaking teams, have the higher skill players play off race or "troll builds" and dont take it seriously, if your playing with a bronze friend, play dumb and play fun, because otherwise your gonna get to a point where your average skill is equal to opponents, and since he has the attitude of not caring about improvement etc etc you are gonna be frustrated in your loses.
apart from that just try out customs, either map variations or full on mini mods where you arent even playing sc2 anymore. and just remember to chill. its frustrating to have to "carry" a friend but they are having even less fun if you are reminding them every 3 minutes what a burden they are.
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Thanks for the suggestions! I'm gonna give shared control a spin, might lead to hilarious situations and it functions both as a practice tool for the lesser player ("Hm, a Raven! Let's try some hunter-seeker magic!") and as a handicap for the better player ("Crap! Where's that raven I put on patrol for darkies?")
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United States43350 Posts
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I'm masters but play with my gold or lower league friends. We either play UMS or if we're playing a melee match, I just screw around like going mass planetary fortress rush. Alternatively, you could try out the handicaps.
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This thread kinda hits home for me , I have this friend who I've quickly outpaced (Not by a lot I'm Gold and he's Silver) , and whenever we play I almost always win. He gets kinda worked up about losing , and I end up feeling like a dick because I won.
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United States954 Posts
imbalanced teams, 2v5...the two best against the 5 worst...and so on.
i remember the fondest memory of LAN gaming for me was playing my friends 2v1 all the time in halo 2. i would usually win, but the scores were always like 45-50, or something really close.
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Good suggestions here. Off racing is a good solution, and it renews the experience for the better players. UMS is another one of course.
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i had this same problem, so i would just play 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 with them on ladder and just not take the game seriously. If we were going to do costums, we would normally do ums or ffa's in which the better players off raced and screwed around making mass lings or somethingm like that
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you should just make the best one play offrace, or put restrictions on them (IE, only make marine or something) =)
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Depending on how good your friends are, you could have them do a team-melee against you.
Basically, it's a 2 vs. 1, they turn on shared control, one of them focuses purely on macro, and the other one chooses Terran, lifts his command center off to a corner at the start of the game, and focuses purely on microing the units his teammate builds. Depending on how close/far the skill levels are (hard to tell, I haven't seen Bronze play in ages), this can do a lot to even things out, since their multitasking can be better pretty much by definition.
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I've been in the same situation.
Personaly im a master league Terran, and i offen play with my mate from bronze to gold.
Even though the gab is so big, we still mange to make it work. here is some tips.
First you have to know that they do not understand the game as a you do. You know more of the mechanics and tact. So in order to make a fun game, you need to not play " for real", you have to maybe try new stuff out, and even though you know it will fail, you still try.
-Dont make it a goal to win.
- Try risky things. Double expand, funny stats.
- If you see them go some special unit, then you go the waekess agianst them and still try.
- Rolling over one is not fun, you want to make it hard for you self. Focus on micro and let you macro slip, if you know thiers macro is sliping.
- Make hidden things, overrun them, make big fight with waek units. as many attacks at once as you can. Make it fun and hard for you to keep up with.
-Maybe dont build anything the first minut.
-Most important, DONT LET THEM KNOW WHAT IS COMMING. Focus on pure fun and no real tactics.!
So for my bad english, i hope you can understand anyways.
- Kickboxerj
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Hm. Stuff like "keep the game fun" seems to be a thin line to walk. PF rushing your friends sounds hilarious, until they actually lose to it. Then it suddenly appears BM. So I'd go for the more cooperative variations. I've never tried UMS, might give that a go too.
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Maybe im an asshole, but I just put as much pressure on my friends as possible to improve. Many of them actually do want to get better but are slacking. My friends who play SC2 are gold-bronze while im diamond. Perhaps the skill gap isnt so great there because we have no problem having fun with ladder 2v2s and 3v3s and even ffas sometiimes.
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I have a friend who was bad. I could get him to play 3-5 games at most and then he would quit because he was mad he lost. But I didn't know what else to do I tried everything short of going afk and still beat him. Coaching him was just as bad as he's a "I get it" type person who clearly doesn't get it. I didn't understand what his mentality was until I discovered that he believes that there should be a super unit that, as long as you build these units, you should never be able to lose the game.
Here are some simple rules that should help play against the these players
1. Never use a cloaked unit
2. Try to stay away from flying units
3. Avoid expanding unless you know the bad has expanded
4. Don't get upgrades, especially things like stim, charge or burrow
5. Never cast a spell, in fact don't make spell casters
6. If he makes a single void ray, gg and leave immediately to let him know he is the boss
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We'd co-op insane or UMS. Ladder or melee doesn't work for me. I don't want to play 100% because that's just mean. But if it's ladder, I give too much shit (not verbally, just in my head) about the results.
I also don't fool around. Because the league difference is usually something like: I'm at your base with 3 banelings, 2 zerglings 1 hydra, 1 roach and 10 overseers. Why do you have 3 marines and no walls? It's 9:00.
I don't like sitting and doing nothing, but if I'm doing something, my friend seems to be doing nothing in comparison and it gets boring. This also goes to the friends who are way better than I am. It's boring for them and I can't keep up.
On January 18 2012 00:44 Rabbet wrote:
6. If he plays terran, zerg or protoss, gg and leave immediately to let him know he is the boss
*edited
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My brother is not nearly as serious as me about the game and not nearly as good. So we just play 2's and its great. It doesn't bother me at all that I can pick up random other person close to my level and do much better because I like to play with him. I used to play practice games with him where i played my offrace but he is really touchy and would get even more pissed if (when) he lost to my offrace even though it was at least close to a level where he was learning/getting practice out of it. Occasionally I'll play him 1v1 now but for teaching purposes only to show him what a build looks like when he faces it, or to demonstrate something specific.
Its tough, I used to have a ton of friends I gamed with all the time, but I couldnt ever sell them on SC and now they all just play CoD and shit and I dont get to play with them any more. The only decent "RL" practice partner I have is one of my friends roommates and the funny thing is I have never actually met him in person. 
SC2 is particularly rough in this respect because at least as far as 1v1 goes the skill spread is very very large. A high plat-low diamond player has virtually zero chance of ever beating a mid master player.
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The handicap system from WC3 would have been really useful here i think. Try looking for custom games that might have that implemented. You could set players unit HP% so one player could have 70%hp on his units while another had 100% for example.
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The problem i have is people who cba learning the game but expect to win.
I dont get why noobs expect to win games at all. If you know next to nothing and you win the game ... well you just wasted time. There is a proverb in a game i love that is 'lose your first hundred games as fast as you can'. Most people hear it and think 'i wont lose 100 games, ill start winning before that'. they don't seem to get that loosing and finding all the ways to lose is probably more important. Especially given that your way to win is probably bad and relies on other guy being a noob also. The alternative is they think i will lose 100 games? that doesn't sound like fun! No, but it may reprogram you into not being a superficial douche.
I also don't get why people are brought up thinking that the objective in team games is to win *at all costs*. The point of games is to train certain skills and find ways to apply them in life - and most importantly have fun because the stakes are almost zero.
Sadly winning = fun for most people.
Also spending time to get good != fun either unless it translates into immediate results. People also dont get that knowing shit in terms of execution also involves all the pathways to your limbs and they take time to train. People are also incredibly bad at giving themselves ways to measure objectivley so cannot see progress.
But then maybe as im a stoner so i get my instant gratification whenever i like elsewhere. Seems to be making sweeping generalizations on forums tbh.
I think its because people have to push themselves in life and cba doing so in games. But if you are 20 or under that's a bullshit excuse that deserves a slap imo.
Problem i have is that you cant play teaching games with most people because they dont like it when you tell them that you are but then act like dicks when you lose after playing with 1 hand behind your back or whilst looking in a mirror or somethign retarded.
The best games i know all have amazing handicap systems that transform the meta game in ways that can be applied in even games given the right situations - eg go. IE they build up many instances of common situations with lots of symmetry so iterations of ideas can happen quickly and independantly in the noobs head yet the stronger player has to take all of the instances into account at once in order to play.
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Just do stuff that you know is stupid.
For example, limit yourself to a 30 food army. But no limit on defensive structures.
Limit yourself to 30 workers - and no 1 base all ins.
Don't ever upgrade anything.
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My friends focus on playing 3v3 or 4v4 against the rest of the internet - teams of mixed skill can be a lot of fun for everyone involved as long as the higher skilled players can chill out.
Another thing we've done is introduce distractions for the 'more skilled' player in a 1v1. If one of the players has to constantly explain what he is doing or answer the questions of a 3rd person or a small audience - even better if said audience is interested in Starcraft but doesn't play - then that player will have his hands full and a lower skilled opponent might be able to keep up. On top of that, it's a cool way to 'preach' the good news of Starcraft to your friends.
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On January 17 2012 22:58 YipMan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 22:36 Josh111 wrote:On January 17 2012 22:27 YipMan wrote:On January 17 2012 22:19 Iranon wrote:
Maybe share control? Try having the bronze players actually make attacking decisions, but the better players control production cycles and scouting. Then both parties would have strong macro and strategic information, and the bronze players could skip right to the fun part (for them), smashing things into other things. Yea, they shall keep stuck and never improve! Sounds logical. Well the thing is, they do not want to improve. They are not playing sc2 to go up in ranks, they are ok with bronze. Well, honestly you can't resist improving if you do something repeatedly. And if you can't take the advice to build more workers or to build a gateway at 13 instead of building it at 18 supply, what's the point playing then? From Bronze to Diamond it's really just about macro, it does not really matter that much what units you build, just keep the money low...
You would be surprised at the things that keep some people in bronze. I have obsed custom games where one player insisted on opening with 2 banshees then using them to kill off the tech lab on the starport before attacking. They would easily be silver if they didn't waste time destroying their own buildings whenever they deciide they won't need them again.
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I had the same problem with my hs club where i was the only one who played competitively and genuinely improved it got to the point where i would still win in 1v7s (assuming no worker rush lol) on bgh against them purely because of my mechanics (and i would offrace for that too! as terran instead of P/Z since P is my main and Z "mutas are imba when you use them" looool) anyway it was at the point where whenever we had competitions they would just cut me out of the whole thing and give me half the prize (usually like $5) to commentate for those who aren't playing and explain why people are so bad xD "and now xxxxx here is attempting to go 1base carrier reaver high templar which is just bad in so many ways while xxxx is realizing this and just building mass hydra to just walk into his base and kill him" 5 minutes later "and the storms hold! xxxx missed his timing by several minutes and did not attempt to micro his hydras!!!!! xxxxx is our winner"
rofl times ppl always seem far worse at bw than they do at sc2 cuz of no automine&shit making life easier xD
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If you're playing 2v2/3v3s, cant you try to get an even distribution of good and bad players on each team? Or are there always toom many bronzies vs legit players or vice-versa?
Alternatively, just tell the bad players to make more pylons and probes :D
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Isn't there a built it handicapper thing? I haven't used it though.
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On January 18 2012 00:56 -_-Quails wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 22:58 YipMan wrote:On January 17 2012 22:36 Josh111 wrote:On January 17 2012 22:27 YipMan wrote:On January 17 2012 22:19 Iranon wrote:
Maybe share control? Try having the bronze players actually make attacking decisions, but the better players control production cycles and scouting. Then both parties would have strong macro and strategic information, and the bronze players could skip right to the fun part (for them), smashing things into other things. Yea, they shall keep stuck and never improve! Sounds logical. Well the thing is, they do not want to improve. They are not playing sc2 to go up in ranks, they are ok with bronze. Well, honestly you can't resist improving if you do something repeatedly. And if you can't take the advice to build more workers or to build a gateway at 13 instead of building it at 18 supply, what's the point playing then? From Bronze to Diamond it's really just about macro, it does not really matter that much what units you build, just keep the money low... You would be surprised at the things that keep some people in bronze. I have obsed custom games where one player insisted on opening with 2 banshees then using them to kill off the tech lab on the starport before attacking. They would easily be silver if they didn't waste time destroying their own buildings whenever they deciide they won't need them again.
Wait what? The campaign teaches you that add-ons are recyclable. They should at least play through the campaign.
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A good way to integrate good and bad is the macro-micro gametype where one controls macro and the other controls micro - sure you might end up losing but at least you're working in a team and teaching them what to do for their respective role.
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On January 18 2012 01:03 Zorkmid wrote:
Isn't there a built it handicapper thing? I haven't used it though.
There is but it simply makes your units have less health. It is kind of silly.
All my friends who used to play have stopped. I don't really see the reason behind playing a 1v1 with someone far inferior because the only thing I could do is whacky strategies which helps neither one of us. If we wanted to have fun we'd just play a 2v2 or something.
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On January 18 2012 01:06 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 01:03 Zorkmid wrote:
Isn't there a built it handicapper thing? I haven't used it though. There is but it simply makes your units have less health. It is kind of silly. All my friends who used to play have stopped. I don't really see the reason behind playing a 1v1 with someone far inferior because the only thing I could do is whacky strategies which helps neither one of us. If we wanted to have fun we'd just play a 2v2 or something.
well having your units at 50% starting health (and maximum) should do a significent difference. Maybe not enough to be beaten by a bronze player but im pretty sure a gold player could beat pretty much anyone if they had 50% handicap (ok not pro koreans)
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On January 18 2012 00:56 -_-Quails wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 22:58 YipMan wrote:On January 17 2012 22:36 Josh111 wrote:On January 17 2012 22:27 YipMan wrote:On January 17 2012 22:19 Iranon wrote:
Maybe share control? Try having the bronze players actually make attacking decisions, but the better players control production cycles and scouting. Then both parties would have strong macro and strategic information, and the bronze players could skip right to the fun part (for them), smashing things into other things. Yea, they shall keep stuck and never improve! Sounds logical. Well the thing is, they do not want to improve. They are not playing sc2 to go up in ranks, they are ok with bronze. Well, honestly you can't resist improving if you do something repeatedly. And if you can't take the advice to build more workers or to build a gateway at 13 instead of building it at 18 supply, what's the point playing then? From Bronze to Diamond it's really just about macro, it does not really matter that much what units you build, just keep the money low... You would be surprised at the things that keep some people in bronze. I have obsed custom games where one player insisted on opening with 2 banshees then using them to kill off the tech lab on the starport before attacking. They would easily be silver if they didn't waste time destroying their own buildings whenever they deciide they won't need them again.
Such a significant logic fail leads me to believe theres more to being bronze than the tactic itself lol.
Anyway I simply never play against my friends.(im mid-high masters and theyre plat and lower) We just play team games, no more than 4 of us at a time. We even got a 2v2 team to top 8 masters last season. Just play together, the mmr will take care of itself even if youre carrying.
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i would try to help them via "voip" when i scout them etc tell em what they should do. and i try to never out macro them like staying on 2base not micro my attacks att all. and sometimes even get into bad positions against them so they can learn, i experiment alot.
the wrost thing about playing your lesser skilled friends is that personaly i dont get any training at all done
tell them to allways max que workers if they are bad.
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I play with a couple high diamond friends (I'm Plat, but I compete pretty well with the diamonds) and a Silver buddy. We do a lot of team ladder games and fuck around, and we do a lot of free for alls where we pretty much silently agree that we won't murder the Silver player early. He plays his main race and we all play random (but me and one of the diamond players are random players anyways) and we usually turtle and do stupid harasses to each other (but not Mr. Silver, we let him build voidrays in peace :D).
He also loves Hero Attack. So we do that a lot.
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On January 18 2012 02:20 LHR wrote:
get new friends
I hadn't considered that yet.
Simple solution really, no need to work those complicated handicap sliders.
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On January 18 2012 02:20 LHR wrote:
get new friends
This is brilliant!
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My friends and I play 1v1 obs when we are playing with a 2-3 league skill gap. We just settle for watching lower league friends play each other and occasionally we give advice. If we play teams, just play a fularranged team and your placements should line up. You'll probably have to carry a bit and as long as you defend your teammate they'll have fun building a 200/200 army and rolling out at the 25 minute mark. You can also have hem share control so they can focus on macro or focus on micro.
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I don't think there's anything you can do. If/when I play with my friends who are in gold league, they're going to get smashed just because no matter what race I play and what strat I do; I have way more units. As a result I just don't play versus my friends because it just isn't very fun for them or me. Instead I try to obs their games and help them out, etc. I don't know about team games, because I only play 1v1, though.
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On January 18 2012 02:20 LHR wrote:
get new friends
very very true, I had the exact same issue with BW where my group of friends only played games at school, wheras I decided to start playing on iccup and seriously following the scene. Soon enough the skill gap became too large. At this point I found the Korean kids in my class and played with them. now if you aren't lucky enough to have serious gamers you can meet up with maps like fastest and BGH are really good at evening the skill scale due to extremely simple strategy and that you can choose to pick maybe a less ideal core unit
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On January 18 2012 02:20 LHR wrote:
get new friends
This is the best post in this thread.
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i never found a way to deal with it, me and my friend use to always 1v1 eachother and after awhile i was always winning, this resulted in him complaining and telling me why the way do shit is wrong even though i won, the fact is he saw i was better than him even when we both started at the same skill level and it drove him to believe that i was actually a huge idiot and played horribly (even tho i won every game) and he even made a thread about me (http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=182076) they are blinded and the best thing i could do was not play with him anymore :/ he doesnt even play sc2 anymore
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The problem with "messing around" and doing silly strategies is that your lower league buddy will feel patronised; that you're just playing and toying with them (which is true). It doesn't help, really.
As is sounds like you have a bunch of friends, try team games with MIXED skills (some good + some bad on each team). Put shared unit control on, and have the BAD players control all the army, while the GOOD players make all the stuff. The bad players can have fun only doing crazy attacks and harassment and engagements without having to worry about anything else. Most people can actually micro fairly well, but macro is where the real skill differences show. It also gives the more serious players a decent opportunity to simply practice macroing, which they are more likely to enjoy and find useful.
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On January 18 2012 01:08 Pulimuli wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 01:06 Tenks wrote:On January 18 2012 01:03 Zorkmid wrote:
Isn't there a built it handicapper thing? I haven't used it though. There is but it simply makes your units have less health. It is kind of silly. All my friends who used to play have stopped. I don't really see the reason behind playing a 1v1 with someone far inferior because the only thing I could do is whacky strategies which helps neither one of us. If we wanted to have fun we'd just play a 2v2 or something. well having your units at 50% starting health (and maximum) should do a significent difference. Maybe not enough to be beaten by a bronze player but im pretty sure a gold player could beat pretty much anyone if they had 50% handicap (ok not pro koreans)
youd be surprised. I'm high diamond and I always beat my gold-low plat friends, even with 50%. It just doesn't matter that much I find, especially with terran where everything is a glass cannon anyway.
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I find that if my friends aren't opposed to getting better, it is possible to just have them share control of their units and you tell them approximately what they should build. If their minerals start piling up they can send it to you and you can build some more production facilities.
Play 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4 with your friends just to have fun... the skill level of most people on the ladder for team games is MUCH lower than for 1v1 from personal experience. Oh, also communicate with them on skype, phone or some other voice chat so you don't have to type to tell them things!
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On January 18 2012 01:08 Pulimuli wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 01:06 Tenks wrote:On January 18 2012 01:03 Zorkmid wrote:
Isn't there a built it handicapper thing? I haven't used it though. There is but it simply makes your units have less health. It is kind of silly. All my friends who used to play have stopped. I don't really see the reason behind playing a 1v1 with someone far inferior because the only thing I could do is whacky strategies which helps neither one of us. If we wanted to have fun we'd just play a 2v2 or something. well having your units at 50% starting health (and maximum) should do a significent difference. Maybe not enough to be beaten by a bronze player but im pretty sure a gold player could beat pretty much anyone if they had 50% handicap (ok not pro koreans)
It does make a difference but it makes it so suddenly you're playing a completely different game. AOE becomes insanely powerful when you handicap yourself. My friend was a Gold Protoss and all he had to do was crank out a few Colossus and there really wasn't anything I could do to stop them.
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Share Control. - If you are in a serious game you can control both armies, or if youre having fun you can let them control armies. this will make the games more close to either of your skill levels. This will also help the newer player work on macro and production.
Cheese - Play an off race and do something weird like a mass reaper rush, nydus, mass T1, or work on drops like baneling drops.
Custom Maps - Desert Strike, Nexus Wars, Squadron Tower defense, star battle. The first few are a good way to talk about strat and there all fun.
play vs AI - 2 on 4 medium, 2 on 1 insaine ect.
I wouldn't try handicap, with newer players it ends up being a 200/200 army a move vs a 200/200 army and at 70% its a 200/200 army vs 140/140 army and thats more frustrating than fun.
On January 17 2012 23:24 ishboh wrote:
imbalanced teams, 2v5...the two best against the 5 worst...and so on.
i remember the fondest memory of LAN gaming for me was playing my friends 2v1 all the time in halo 2. i would usually win, but the scores were always like 45-50, or something really close.
In halo it was easier to be on the smaller team because you are able to get more kills :p
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Im in a similar situation where i beat my friends 99% of the time. We usually take turns playing 1v1 and piss about on teamspeak ("aaaaaaah looks like hes going for the 6 pool!"). Sometimes ill play an off race and try something stupid. Aim is to make a fun game for some banter. End of the day, your friends know whos better and who will win in a straight up game, so dont play a straight up game.
Another thing is to try new strats or constantly tell them what the're doing wrong. Not as fun but atleast the'll get better. And if it all gets too serious play some minigames.
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Push them to get better. Bronze is pathetic for anyone who plays on any sort of semi-regular basis. Tell them that.
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We always made uneven teams if one or two players were that much better than the others.
instead of 2v2 try 2v4 or 2v3 etc etc It makes balancing a lot easier.
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team games work themselves out as long as the higher level players don't try too hard/take it too seriously. I'm in masters while my friends are an assortment of gold plat and a girl who has never actually played a 1v1 before(i guess she's like silver?) As long as I wing builds, viable or not, the games usually end up fairly close and we're in plat league or something. ofc the ladder system wants 50-50, but it's still enjoyable when you try random things that don't work and you can laugh it off in game. We've done things like mass expand+money dump, 1-2 people monobattling, amusing team compositions (roach/hydra/medivac or colossus+scv repair rush)
Be creative! you can think of something that works as long as people are open minded and want to have fun.
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Been having this problem with my friends. My problem is they're trying to get better but they give up so easily =[. I honestly think some people are cut to play such a mentally demanding game, I've had friends buy the game and give up within a week.
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All my irl friends are silver and below. I'm in master so when I 2v2 / 3v3 /4v4. I often offrace becayse my offrace is shit :D (I play Z as main). That's my way to keep it fun !
+ I can tell them what's coming so we can more or less prepare as well as they can and make the "correct" units.
I never 1v1 my friends unless I want to help them get better. Like ZvZ is very hard if they have problem with 6-7 pool or something I can do it to them and tell them what to do but I dont play 1v1s with my irls
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I have the same thing, my SC2 friends are in league's from gold to high masters, but most of us even practice together
I really like to practice against somebody that is alot better then me so he can point out the mistakes
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For the people suggesting to play like an idiot or throwing wrenches into your own play to give them a chance I think that's actually the worst thing you could do. Yeah, my friends aren't as good as me but they can tell when I'm not trying and they find it incredibly insulting to lose to someone screwing around even a couple times, more-so if you randomly start leaving games to give them wins. If anything if they catch you on it, it's probably the biggest motivator to have someone stop playing.
The best thing you could probably do is use the life handicaps, off-race, or simply just play custom games. If they aren't into melee games after playing it I wouldn't really be pushing them into it.
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On January 18 2012 00:44 Rabbet wrote:
1. Never use a cloaked unit
2. Try to stay away from flying units
3. Avoid expanding unless you know the bad has expanded
4. Don't get upgrades, especially things like stim, charge or burrow
5. Never cast a spell, in fact don't make spell casters
6. If he makes a single void ray, gg and leave immediately to let him know he is the boss
sounds boring as f... for the better player. i'd rather not play with my friends at all than having to do this all the time.
and also this:
On January 18 2012 03:24 ScareCrow` wrote:
For the people suggesting to play like an idiot or throwing wrenches into your own play to give them a chance I think that's actually the worst thing you could do. Yeah, my friends aren't as good as me but they can tell when I'm not trying and they find it incredibly insulting to lose to someone screwing around even a couple times, more-so if you randomly start leaving games to give them wins. If anything if they catch you on it, it's probably the biggest motivator to have someone stop playing.
The best thing you could probably do is use the life handicaps, off-race, or simply just play custom games. If they aren't into melee games after playing it I wouldn't really be pushing them into it.
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Just let them win? I was a lot better than a friend of mine at Warcraft 3, so when we'd play I would just try weird strategies that gave him a chance to win.
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play a couple of games winner has to kill a worker at the start of the next game. And the opponent can decide if they abuse that for some cheese. In bw i never got over 2 workers less. But it really depends on what they understand under fun. Sometimes even the sadistic way can be fun, starting to dance around pre battle etc. You know winning against someone who is a bit arrogant can be lots of fun afterwards.
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I really don't like playing with irl friends. It's not fun 1v1ing people worse than you really, and teaming with people who don't try at the asme level as you can be frustrating when you literally feel like if everyone just shared control you could micro for them in 95% of the situations where you just watch as their army helplessly dies/does nothing and you wonder what they could POSSIBLY be doing at that moment with their APM...
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Wait OP, you mean that your bronze friends dont put any effort into getting better at the game, then are discouraged when they arent as good as someone who puts forth time and effort to improve? Please tell me I read that wrong.
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1) Off race: I find off racing is actually really beneficial to your own play, and I don't get to do it muc while laddering. Playing my silver friend with my really terrible zerg is a good exercise.
2) Don't play like a moron but don't play super hard.
3) Watch them play each other and try to help them out. I'm mid-gold, my older brother is high diamond, and he just gives me lots of advice. And his friend is mid-masters and doe sthe same thing with him. Try to give them easy skills that will benefit them. For example, my friend was mid-bronze till I told him about two strats: four gate, and dt rush. Now he's first in silver league. It took him like thirty minutes to learn them.
edit: learning the builds opened up a whole new world for him, too. It made him realize there was a different school of thinking about the game.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On January 17 2012 22:13 uskel wrote:
What I do for cases like such, is just plain have fun with the game. Don't take the game so serious when playing with friends. For example, if I know I'm playing one of my friends in a fun match, I try to do something new and have fun playing around with it. Or I sometimes off race which that in itself will lessen the skill gap. Just try to throw monkey wretches into your play and see if you can maybe think of something that you might want to actually try to use in your "real" games.
^ Pretty much.
I used to play with my friends, but from the start, they were never at my level, and it's not like I play more than them. After that, I realized that if I just kept winning, they would just stop playing against me, since who likes to lose so many matches in a row.
And so I started playing my off races or just do really absurd builds such as Planetary Fortress rush against them. (tech straight to Planetary Fort and build them by their bases.)
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On January 18 2012 04:37 Vei wrote:
I really don't like playing with irl friends. It's not fun 1v1ing people worse than you really, and teaming with people who don't try at the asme level as you can be frustrating when you literally feel like if everyone just shared control you could micro for them in 95% of the situations where you just watch as their army helplessly dies/does nothing and you wonder what they could POSSIBLY be doing at that moment with their APM...
You are trying too hard. I carried my bronzie friends in 2v2s and 4v4s to diamond and we had a blast.
You just gotta change your mindset.
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Handicaps don't really help, I've experienced the same problem like the OP. Me and my friends used to play broodwar on our LANs, which was great fun - until 50% of us started to play the game online. The "offline guys" didn't improve and soon didn't want to play the game anymore, because they got man-handled in every game. We tried handicaps, off-racing, and all the other stuff, but the skill ceiling is just too extreme. As a superior player, you HAVE to play stupid builds to give the worse ones a chance, and this sucks.
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On January 18 2012 04:48 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 04:37 Vei wrote:
I really don't like playing with irl friends. It's not fun 1v1ing people worse than you really, and teaming with people who don't try at the asme level as you can be frustrating when you literally feel like if everyone just shared control you could micro for them in 95% of the situations where you just watch as their army helplessly dies/does nothing and you wonder what they could POSSIBLY be doing at that moment with their APM... You are trying too hard. I carried my bronzie friends in 2v2s and 4v4s to diamond and we had a blast. You just gotta change your mindset.
you're right about the mindset, it's just frustrating. i can't "not try." if i don't carry with 10e9p, we GUARANTEE lose. i play with my gold to diamond friends and our mmr is still master leagueish because of my team game MMRs, and if i try anything other than early-game carry strats (aka pretty boring strats tbh), someone will die.
it's like, bleh.
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On January 18 2012 04:50 virpi wrote:
Handicaps don't really help, I've experienced the same problem like the OP. Me and my friends used to play broodwar on our LANs, which was great fun - until 50% of us started to play the game online. The "offline guys" didn't improve and soon didn't want to play the game anymore, because they got man-handled in every game. We tried handicaps, off-racing, and all the other stuff, but the skill ceiling is just too extreme. As a superior player, you HAVE to play stupid builds to give the worse ones a chance, and this sucks.
When you do this, they'll learn that you're basically giving them pity wins, and come to resent either you, or the game, for it.
You're basically saying, "the only way that you can keep up with me is if i play like a complete idiot." While this may or may not be true, their mechanics aren't good enough to stand up to it.
If you were off doing something you enjoyed doing, and someone (vastly better than you), said, "well, no, because 2+2 is 5..." you'd look at him like he was retarded. Blatantly throwing the game is just silly.
OP should put on handicaps. 50% handicap is DEVISTATING to almost all strategies you try to do
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my friend is in gold, i'm master and my handicap is staying on one base at a time and it leads to pretty even games as long as i dont do super aggressive play like 4gate, banebust, tank contain.
not sure how it'll workout on team games but higher level players being handicapped to one mining base at a time should work out.
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Day9-style Monobattles even the playing field quite a bit ^^
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I'm in plat and play a lot with a friend of mine who is in diamond. When we play we friends from silver and bronze, they usually give us control. We tell them not to worry about anything except making units.
Also, at least with our friends, even tho they are at a lower level, they are pretty good at massing units. One bronze friend in particular loves massing thors, so my diamond friend and I will attempt to hold off the enemy/harrass until he has built up an army of fully upgraded thors. Its basically a 2v3 for the higher lvls so that keeps us interested, and the bronze's army lands the killing blow so he feels like he contributed too.
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Have a strategy with your teammate eg. early attacks (surprise), funds transfer (one person powers & other macros) or special tactics (1 tech other mass army).
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I just let my bad friends play while I commentate about how bad they are, lols.
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Play custom games or play as a team on ladder. Playing against each other will never work if your goal is fun. I've got a few friends that are bronze and I have a blast playing with them.
If you're able to; just get drunk and play... evens out the skill nicely plus takes the boredom factor away from you. Also if you're like me your friends will enjoy you become increasingly bm on the ladder. If you can't drink... you're fucked.
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if they dont seem to take advice to get better then make new friends. its their loss
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My friends and i love playing team games and even though they're only 1 diamond and the other 2 bronze and silver we still have a lot of fun.
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What I do with my assorted crew of bronze-masters friends is doing 4v4s and 3v3s with obscenely ridiculous strats, proxy 5 barracks into mass nuke, proxy 12 nex into carriers, mass HTs, etc, it's really great fun if you're in diamond-masters playing with people in bronze in 4v4 and ridiculous things ^^
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In Brood War, my friend and I would play 2v5 against our less competitive classmates on weird maps that no one really knew... 5 people = greater scouting advantage, and weird maps = less structured builds and usually more vulnerable/imba situations. This forces you to play at peak level and keeps things fair.
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whenever i play with a friend who is lower rank than me I just offrace. It helps close the skill gap and lets you learn a new race. win-win
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Something similar happened to me. All my real life friends are all platinum and below and when we try to play Peepmode obs or some 1v1 customs they never want me to play because it's never a close match. My friends play a pretty fair amount, but they didn't have the drive I did to get better. They were content with staying in plat or gold and having fun, but I went from bronze all the way up to masters and now it's not really fun for them to play against me and stuff. First world problems I guess
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if they are your friends then why not coach them and help them get better? i got my brother from silver to diamond and then he eventually got to masters
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I have the same problem. I can win vs one of my friends when I'm monobattling with any kind of unit. This includes my 6 basic workers, queens and even BCs.
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I like helping/coaching my friends to get better at the game. But sometimes I just can't lower my skill enough to give them a fair edge against me in a 1v1 situation. Idk if your friends like to play 1v1s or SOLELY team games, but try lowering your handicap to give your units less health against them. I used to do this and it made it a challenge for both me and the person I was playing against due to his lower skill than me.
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i see a lot of bronze 1V1 players who are master in 3v3/4v4 so the skill gap is not a problem, just get skype and choose nice strats and it will be ez win.
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I have a similar problem. All my real-life friends play bronze league and I am in masters. We usually play 4v4 on the same team which always results in me having to carry an entire team to victory or in really frustrating losses for me personally. It's fine for them because for them the fun aspect of the game is just playing and building stuff, whereas for me it's that + winning. I'm naturally very competitive and I absolutely hate losing. I don't know I don't really get pissed off, I just get a bit frustrated and it's not really enjoyable playing teamgames with my friends.
But the most frustrating part is that I love 1v1 and I would love to practise 1v1 with my friends, but that is basically impossible. I play against my friends with mouse only and still beat them quite convincingly, so there really is no point in playing 1v1s either. And when i try to give them tips I usually just get the typical bronze league response "I know", "yeah yeah" and then they do the complete opposite anyway.
I don't know I love hanging out with my friends on skype, but yeah, it's really no fun for me to play teamgames with them, 1v1 is a hopeless case anyway.
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First of all: motivate them to train. Try to play ladder games with them - maybe they will learn something. It's probably the best way.
If that's not the case for you try using handicap, playing off-race or just be a money-dumper. You can also try some Funday Monday ideas like playing with only your mouse or making only three units for the whole game;)
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well i play with 2 buddies who are so hyped to play but they're just plain bad,
so we play a lot of 1v2 ,
very entertaining for all of us.
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Playing UMS is always fun!
2v2 is also a great idea.
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You know that there is a handicap feature in the custom game screen, right? Honestly I didn't notice it myself until a few months ago. You can play around with the percentages to "nerf down" the units of higher league players.
Obviously it doesn't work for serious laddering/tournament play. But if you're just plaing customs with friends its good.
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This is something I found quite annoying. Been playing with a group of people during beta and short after release. Me and 1 of them ended up being far above the rest, they got frustrated and stopped playing. It's so much harder to get motivated to play when all you can do is ladder vs random people. 
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I actually strongly recommend monobattling w/ them! It's pretty damn easy to build just ONE unit and to coordinate together. Plus, it's wildly fun and you get into some hilariously kick ass situations :D.
I also really like playing FFA games w/ my buddies. Nobody really has to try if they don't want to, and you can have alot of fun just being ridiculous. For instance, my friend Dane and I ALWAYS try to kill eachother at all costs in every FFA. If we're both nearly dead and trying to recover, he'll still devote all his money to flying a dropship with 1 unit cross map just to kill 2-3 of my workers. It's a ton of fun! Also, we both rarely win , but that ain't the point either! :D
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I've actually had this problem with me and my friends. My friends always wanted to 1v1 me (I'm diamond and they are bronze to gold). And they always obs the games. They tell me a race to play so they can understand what's going on and we sit in Skype and talk about the game afterwards. How my build works, what it is designed to do, what parts I did wrong, what my friend who played me did wrong, etc...
I also encourage them to watch streams where the player talks through what he/she is doing (though the only streams I know of that do this are Snute and Sheth, but then again I'm a Zerg player so I really only watch Zerg streams). The other thing I encourage them to do is ladder. I've gotten almost all my friends into gold and two into platinum. If you work through their basic mechanics and help them fix it, you'll notice they can get better a lot quickly. Once they have the macro down. Introduce them to Darglein's Micro Challenge. It doesn't have all the micro skills one should use, but it has a lot of great skills to practice.
When you play against them, also try doing outrageous builds you would never attempt. Proxy a Nexus in their base and try and Mothership rush them with it or make 0 units, tech to infestors, get neural parasite and try and build either a CC or a Nexus (the CC is harder and I don't even know if you can do it anymore, I tried it once and got it halfway through building; the Nexus is easily doable). Outlandish builds that won't realistically work are perfect for this.
Edit: Day[9]! <3
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I used to have to 1v2 back in BW because my friends wouldn't practice at all (I was terrible myself but..). Even then it became too easy for me to win so I would end up just messing around trying to win with only mutas or something like that.
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My friend was way better than me in BW, he always off raced, pick a race you dont know and just play that
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The handicap feature in custom games reduces your units health so the lower level player needs less to kill them allowing them to use a half size army to kill your full one.
Another thing is you just have to play straight up vs. people of lower levels, no stargates vs zerg, no dt's or banshees, don't attack before 8 min., don't deny expos, ect. Best bet is just to build up a one dimensional army and attack their army, don't mess with their bases, so even if they lose the battle they can still build stuff and the game can continue and you can tell them what to build to counter your army so they learn which units are good in certain situations.
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Hmm...I used to have this problem but then I trained my friend for a week. He had like no school so....he had all the time to get better and now we're a crazy ass 2v2 team!! Things like doing Vs Ai's to help with build orders and mechanics then 1v1s against yourself or other friends to help them move those skills into a actual game.
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On January 18 2012 05:59 RoboBob wrote:
You know that there is a handicap feature in the custom game screen, right? Honestly I didn't notice it myself until a few months ago. You can play around with the percentages to "nerf down" the units of higher league players.
Obviously it doesn't work for serious laddering/tournament play. But if you're just plaing customs with friends its good.
it doesn't help that much when the friend is absolutely inept at macroing. i've played custom 1s and 2s with friends who are just horri-bad and when you're on 80 supply at 15:00 with absolutely zero pressure applied, it's kinda hard for them even with handicap.
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I don't really take team games to be super meaningful anyway, so I usually just accept that if I'm diamond, and my buddies gold, our 2v2 team is going to be at about a plat level. I also try to make it a little bit easier on them. I focus on harassment based play after a quick hatch and let him build up slowly to a big marine/marauder/medivac/tank army, while also expanding when its safe. I usually try to suggest things, like when to expand, remind him about upgrades, etc. I try to handle almost all of the scouting, aside from when we need to scan.
But my friend actually takes the game seriously, if he didn't we would just play monobattles or I would not take the game seriously at all. If they just want to have fun then just have fun lol
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On January 17 2012 22:27 YipMan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 22:19 Iranon wrote:
Maybe share control? Try having the bronze players actually make attacking decisions, but the better players control production cycles and scouting. Then both parties would have strong macro and strategic information, and the bronze players could skip right to the fun part (for them), smashing things into other things. Yea, they shall keep stuck and never improve! Sounds logical.
They are casual, they play for fun, they don't care about improving.
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Teach them tricks and most importantly, refined strategies. If they practice enough relatively intense build orders enough, they'll pick it up, even if its cheesy. Either that, or play a macro/micro UMS (shared control 1v1). Concentrated practice?
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I really don't think it makes sense to try to get them to get better, some people are either not the type of people, not at a time where they're the type of people, or just not into SC2 enough to try to be very competitive, I think since you're the better one and so can "lower" yourself while they can't really "raise" themselves, that you should just play at a level more fitting with them and try to make sure you're still having fun, mess around, do weird strats, it can actually be a lot of fun to play games where you can compete using mass pheonixes.
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I'm a (low) diamond with friends spread all across the leauges (several in bronze, 1 in silver, 2 in gold, 1 in plat)
We really don't play together too much. Most of us spend our time on the ladder, and I'll play a friendly 1v1 or something maybe once or twice a week. We also do partial team ladder games, i.e. three of us in a party playing a 4v4, or two of us in a 3v3. It really screws with the system when you have a bronze and a diamond together in a "random" 4v4 team.
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On January 18 2012 00:52 MrTortoise wrote:
The problem i have is people who cba learning the game but expect to win.
I dont get why noobs expect to win games at all. If you know next to nothing and you win the game ... well you just wasted time. There is a proverb in a game i love that is 'lose your first hundred games as fast as you can'. Most people hear it and think 'i wont lose 100 games, ill start winning before that'. they don't seem to get that loosing and finding all the ways to lose is probably more important. Especially given that your way to win is probably bad and relies on other guy being a noob also. The alternative is they think i will lose 100 games? that doesn't sound like fun! No, but it may reprogram you into not being a superficial douche.
I also don't get why people are brought up thinking that the objective in team games is to win *at all costs*. The point of games is to train certain skills and find ways to apply them in life - and most importantly have fun because the stakes are almost zero.
Sadly winning = fun for most people.
Also spending time to get good != fun either unless it translates into immediate results. People also dont get that knowing shit in terms of execution also involves all the pathways to your limbs and they take time to train. People are also incredibly bad at giving themselves ways to measure objectivley so cannot see progress.
But then maybe as im a stoner so i get my instant gratification whenever i like elsewhere. Seems to be making sweeping generalizations on forums tbh.
I think its because people have to push themselves in life and cba doing so in games. But if you are 20 or under that's a bullshit excuse that deserves a slap imo.
Problem i have is that you cant play teaching games with most people because they dont like it when you tell them that you are but then act like dicks when you lose after playing with 1 hand behind your back or whilst looking in a mirror or somethign retarded.
The best games i know all have amazing handicap systems that transform the meta game in ways that can be applied in even games given the right situations - eg go. IE they build up many instances of common situations with lots of symmetry so iterations of ideas can happen quickly and independantly in the noobs head yet the stronger player has to take all of the instances into account at once in order to play.
This is one of the most insightful posts I've read in a long time, and really touches on some of the fundamental reasons why humans (or any animal, for that matter) actually play. I think that most of us are so inherently wired to feel that winning is great and that losing sucks and should be avoided at all costs exactly because in life losing usually has negative consequences, e.g. competing for a job or a promotion or for the attention of that cute girl you like. Games and play in general are great ways to learn and develop skills in a no-consequence environment where failure doesn't matter, and yet still it's so difficult to turn off that natural fear of losing.
At the same time, I think it's important to remember that games can be about so much more than just a sandbox environment for self-improvement. Game designer Marc LeBlanc talks about this concept a lot with his "8 kinds of fun", emphasizing that goals such as relaxation, socialization, and expression are equally valid ways to enjoy a game. Some people just tend to naturally prefer those gaming objectives over ideas like competition and learning, and that's ok.
I would definitely try to still encourage anyone that is playing Starcraft to have a mindset toward adapting and developing new skills since the game is SO much more awesome and fun when you play it that way. For many people, though, it might be better to focus your gaming sessions between friends less on the competitive aspect itself, and instead find ways to make it more of an opportunity to socialize and experiment with fun crazy ideas.
I really like ideas like playing with shared control and giving the less experienced players a specific responsibility such as army management, or any kind of artificial constraint on the game such as monobattling that shifts the focus away from multitasking-intensive strategy.
It's also worth remembering that it's hard for people to feel motivated to improve when the goal is too far away. Perhaps instead of just playing goofy cheese builds against the weaker friend, it might be better to play straight up, but only well enough that your friend actually has a chance to win if they play a little bit better. That way when you give them advice for the next game and they execute it, they can suddenly see the goal moving much closer instead of feeling like they just get owned no matter how hard they try.
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Canada11379 Posts
It's not so much an issue with SC2 as I don't play so often, but I've played a lot of LAN BW games with friends with huge skill imbalances.
I hate having to check myself and not try hard. As I want to be able to try my best, but play a competitive game with my friends. Mentally, the game becomes boring and I end up second guessing myself on whether I'm trying "too hard" or not hard enough. In addition, I feel it robs my friends of a legitimate victory if I wasn't trying- even if I keep it to myself.
The most success I've had is imbalancing the teams and then putting limitations on myself. So for instance 2v2v1 where I am the one player by myself. Then I off-race and then I limit myself with not being able to make very key, powerful unit. So Terran no tank (BW this is actually a big deal, especially vs other Terrans.)
This I find is hilariously fun and you get to experiment with all sorts of funky strategies that you'd never otherwise try as you have to work around that core unit. Marine drop into nukes or mass vultures into mass wraith. With imba teams (and more than 2 sides) you can be winning one side and then get back-stabbed a moment later.
It forces creativity and allows you to push your own skills to the limit with the set up bounds. Furthermore, it's possible for your friends to gain a legitimate victory with you trying your hardest within the confines of whatever limitations that were agreed too. Plus it pushes you away from "standard build orders" and that experimentation is fun in and of itself as you find which units synergze better without the missing unit (or units). Now, you'd have to adjust which unit would be best to take out for what works in SC2 (and in that sense it's almost like monobattles.) But having more than one side in a battle also makes things more fun imo. 2v2v2v2 is waaaay better than 4v4.
That or fun UMS maps- Has anyone made a Tandem Starcraft 2 map like Chef did for BW? That map was so cool. (though there is an issue with Battlenet2.0 map system, but if you find them in advance, you can cue up some cool games amongst friends.)
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One word:
Starbattle
It's a fun ums that anyone with a pulse and an interest in team player vs player games can learn and become really good at with little effort. Its great for your friends who refuse to improve at real starcraft because they just want to "do my own thing" and build something cool rather than learn to manage workers, bases, and production structures. It lets you play as one of the capitol ships (carrier, battlecruiser, the zerg leviathan from the campaign, etc... there are 9 ships in total) and level it up and customize your strengths and weaknesses. Games usually last anywhere from 15-45 minutes depending on how evenly the teams are matched. This is what me and my friends I grew up playing BGH with play now since none of them seem capable of playing above a silver level in actual starcraft.
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All-kill Team League style PUG!
Here's an idea I've wanted to try for a while. when you have 6+ (even #) friends on of varying skills try playing an all-kill style team league. divide yourselves into even teams and play your players going from worst to best. Everyone should get to play against someone at their own level (then someone better if they win). Also watching your friends play is a lot of fun.
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Day9 responded to your thread dude. You've been touched by the typing of a supreme starcraft being, best listen to his advice.
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On January 18 2012 06:12 Day[9] wrote:I actually strongly recommend monobattling w/ them! It's pretty damn easy to build just ONE unit and to coordinate together. Plus, it's wildly fun and you get into some hilariously kick ass situations :D. I also really like playing FFA games w/ my buddies. Nobody really has to try if they don't want to, and you can have alot of fun just being ridiculous. For instance, my friend Dane and I ALWAYS try to kill eachother at all costs in every FFA. If we're both nearly dead and trying to recover, he'll still devote all his money to flying a dropship with 1 unit cross map just to kill 2-3 of my workers. It's a ton of fun! Also, we both rarely win , but that ain't the point either! :D
The Man posted here, I think it's a good topic, figured if this goes on a different page I'll be helping new posters know about it! Not an out-of-place bump I hope?
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I play after a couple drinks so no matter how bad I win/lose, whether it be against friend or foe, I just laugh it out and chill with some music in the background.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I usually play it like funday monday and put random restrictions on myself :D
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I have a huge skill gap against my friends, I'm Masters another one of my friends is dia and the rest are bronze so usually we play team but if we have more than 4 we play 1v1 obs with me and my dia friend not playing till the third game and making it so that we have to get off even iff we win + we offrace, fool around etc, it usually causes some laughs when i bunker glitch across metal and stuff like that
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My group it's 2 masters players, 2 gold (myself) and 5-6 bronze, so it's really hard. We mostly just play Magecraft and stuff like that because people simply don't have fun, as one of our masters players grinds monobattles like a madman.
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Play teamgames together against randoms, or make them play each other. If the gap isn't far, offrace vs them.
If you want to play real games, get different friends to play against.
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Start out learning how to play macro games. As you lose you will begin to find holes in your play for the most part outside of macro. Time goes on and you begin to weld these holes.
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i offrace against my 1 friend that plays sc2 (hes bronze but i'd say good enough to be low goldish, im high plat) and i give him tips and stuff. we also do alot of 2v2s, or lately what has been really fun, we go in 4v4s and each go random. before the game we tell the other person what they are going to make. i usually tell him stuff that would help improve his feel for army comps and force him to macro up pretty hard, and he tells me stuff like "just go warp prism DTs, if that fails.....make more DTs" its pretty fun.
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My little brother is masters and I'm low plat so one of the things he does (beyond the usual off race play) is tell me what general build or timing he'll be using and he plays just that for three to six games. I'll throw everything and the kitchen sink at it trying to beat him. He normally wins still but it's a hell of a lot of fun because I'm free to try all sorts of builds I normally wouldn't and he gets to fight against some pretty random cheeses, all-ins or super greedy macro builds.
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United States4126 Posts
From my experience, playing with the in-game handicap at 50% leveled out a game between bronze and a master player. Although it does make for some silly games, it's for fun anyway.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
On January 18 2012 13:49 Kinky wrote:
From my experience, playing with the in-game handicap at 50% leveled out a game between bronze and a master player. Although it does make for some silly games, it's for fun anyway.
NO, not even close. My friend is gold 1v1, and i can beat him with either offrace and a 50% handicap without all too many issues, because people at that level simply dont have any kind of meaningful scouting, timings, and usually even when they cheese or all in their macro during the event and the follow up is horrible enough to walk all over. Im not even masters on ladder yet.
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On January 18 2012 13:49 Kinky wrote:
From my experience, playing with the in-game handicap at 50% leveled out a game between bronze and a master player. Although it does make for some silly games, it's for fun anyway.
the 50% handicap isn't as big as it seems... i once won a 1v2 vs a gold and bronzie (i'm only plat) with a 60% handicap...
on topic... my friends find it more fun to play vs AI (usually outnumbered, with increasing skill lvl)
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Why not play Ladder 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4 with them? I had a friend when I was in Diamond 1v1 who was in Bronze 1v1. We started 2v2 a few seasons back. Since then we've managed to work our way from the depths of Bronze to the mid Platinum level, nearly even breaking into Diamond last season. I've improved my game a heap in that time, my macro and rush defense specifically. My friend has also improved a heap. He would be able to hold his own in at least the Gold league 1v1 now. Though we have too much fun in 2v2 to really do much 1v1 anymore. :D
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hmm, in my experience, your success depends a lot on your friend attitude and willingness
I'm a silver/gold player and i play often with my grandmaster friend. we played 2v1 or sometimes play with time condition where we cannot attack each other in the first 10 minutes, just macro up army then engage or sth like that.
we ladder 2v2 also, and sometimes he just do stupid things so that it look like its his fault that we lost the game, and not my fault. It may sound silly but at least it give the me (worse player) some encouragement.
however, i think its more because i'm inspired by his skill, his tournament win and such (he is the ace player of his team) that i try to practice hard to get better (although ladder is kinda suck and often times i feel desperate lol)
so i would say you need to kinda know why they want to quit and hit that weakness by encourage them by showing that they are capable of doing stuff, team up with them is better than playing against them i think.
just my 2cents
gluck
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On January 18 2012 06:12 Day[9] wrote:I actually strongly recommend monobattling w/ them! It's pretty damn easy to build just ONE unit and to coordinate together. Plus, it's wildly fun and you get into some hilariously kick ass situations :D. I also really like playing FFA games w/ my buddies. Nobody really has to try if they don't want to, and you can have alot of fun just being ridiculous. For instance, my friend Dane and I ALWAYS try to kill eachother at all costs in every FFA. If we're both nearly dead and trying to recover, he'll still devote all his money to flying a dropship with 1 unit cross map just to kill 2-3 of my workers. It's a ton of fun! Also, we both rarely win , but that ain't the point either! :D
Whoa
In fact we have been doing monobattles lately. It leveled the playing field to a great extent, though the lesser players handicapped themselves a bit by picking pretty difficult units (also, darkies are less of a surprise if everyone can see you're going to build them ) . And of course, (semi)decent macro was still a major factor. But it was fun indeed. Maybe next time I'll restrict myself to picking a spell caster unit, or random.
From a didactic point of view I think it would be best for the lesser players to play against each other more. It would give them a more relaxed environment for learning/recognizing game situations, and a fair chance of winning (which I know is not the point of playing, but to them it's the only way of determining success). I think most of the better players in our group would love spec-ing them, for additional insight and silly anecdotes. But so far my attempts to entice them into 1v1-ing each other have been fruitless. Somehow the mass 3v3/4v4 feels 'safer', even if it means being insignificant. I'll keep trying though
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How about just lose on purpose? Keep the status quo. I try to maintain a 50/50 win ratio, keep them happy, it's way better than playing this game all by my self... :D
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On January 18 2012 18:49 babarossa wrote:
How about just lose on purpose? Keep the status quo. I try to maintain a 50/50 win ratio, keep them happy, it's way better than playing this game all by my self... :D
They'd definitely notice. Wouldn't be fun for anybody imho.
It's not the losing that bothers them (after all, you're bound to lose games when you play). It's the fact that they feel they can't make an impact on the game flow, ever. Other solutions (handicaps, mono's) modify the game flow in a less patronizing way.
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Coaching is the best way that I have found.
Offer to watch them play and give them advice. This will help them improve while also allowing all of you to share in your passion for gaming.
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On January 18 2012 18:45 _fool wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 06:12 Day[9] wrote:I actually strongly recommend monobattling w/ them! It's pretty damn easy to build just ONE unit and to coordinate together. Plus, it's wildly fun and you get into some hilariously kick ass situations :D. I also really like playing FFA games w/ my buddies. Nobody really has to try if they don't want to, and you can have alot of fun just being ridiculous. For instance, my friend Dane and I ALWAYS try to kill eachother at all costs in every FFA. If we're both nearly dead and trying to recover, he'll still devote all his money to flying a dropship with 1 unit cross map just to kill 2-3 of my workers. It's a ton of fun! Also, we both rarely win , but that ain't the point either! :D Whoa In fact we have been doing monobattles lately. It leveled the playing field to a great extent, though the lesser players handicapped themselves a bit by picking pretty difficult units (also, darkies are less of a surprise if everyone can see you're going to build them ) . And of course, (semi)decent macro was still a major factor. But it was fun indeed. Maybe next time I'll restrict myself to picking a spell caster unit, or random. From a didactic point of view I think it would be best for the lesser players to play against each other more. It would give them a more relaxed environment for learning/recognizing game situations, and a fair chance of winning (which I know is not the point of playing, but to them it's the only way of determining success). I think most of the better players in our group would love spec-ing them, for additional insight and silly anecdotes. But so far my attempts to entice them into 1v1-ing each other have been fruitless. Somehow the mass 3v3/4v4 feels 'safer', even if it means being insignificant. I'll keep trying though
Try 4v4 monobattling on their team on the ladder, (rotate if more than 4 people) if you win it's really satisfying all around (we won under constraint!!). And if you lose, it's not as debilitating. (well, we WERE constraining ourselves, so we still aren't bad, really). This is what I (bronze former mass ling BW vs mass cannon on LAN IPX player) do with my buddies (high diamonds who taught me who The Man was, to my drastic improvement!) do, and I almost contribute and in fact had 13 collosus sitting around after a big army trade in their (opponents) favor, folks had forgotten about me. I felt critical then and nobody asked for control ( and I thank them for that :D ) and I blew through two unguarded bases before ALL of the colli fell to mass Viking, making it effectively 2 1/2 v a lot of Vikings. See, rather than bother controlling WotW, they let me go have fun, do damage, and fail, while they macro'ed hard. Yay for us :D. Monobattle is among the best of things Day[9] has popularized, I humbly (yet loudly!) second the Monobattle idea, even if folks are dumb enough to announce that they will tech and have zilch for 10+ min ( :-p speaking, here I am, fellow folks! )
Edit: I don't think that was a monobattle game actually, I think I just decided Mass colli was a good idea. If anyone wants that replay, I'd say PM me.
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Lol I did it again! Hey folks, Day[9] posted a good one on pg.6.
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play 4v4s. It`s hilarious. =)
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Some of my friends have ladder fear for 1v1, one is masters in everything but 1v1, it's really up to them to want to improve; not much you can do to change their skill level besides for tips and tricks.
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What you should do is get your bronze friend, kill all his stuff, then proceed to max out and take every base on the map for fun while getting a maxed out 200/200 army, and laugh at how bad your friend is trying to come back on one and a half bases.
At least thats what my friends do to me >_>.
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EPT
