EPTGolden and Dragon leave SlayerS - Page 27
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tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
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Rabbet
Canada404 Posts
On January 17 2012 09:58 Trict wrote: Did they tell you that you could publically announce there discussions with you? Because if not you have no right to. He was within his rights to, unless he signed some sort of legal document stating he would keep it disclosed. The contract negotiations may have been private but that doesn't mean shit. My neighbor bang in private all night, that doesn't mean I cannot tell co-workers about what I hear. | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On January 17 2012 09:57 Trict wrote: The mere fact that we haven't heard any talks about other salaries is representation that they want it confidential. Exactly. All that information is (within a range) known to teams just through negotiation, but in general players don't want it public. I can't think of a single player who has made it public. | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
On January 17 2012 10:02 tree.hugger wrote: Kennigit is right, regardless of what it means to other teams, you shouldn't drop details from private conversations without consent of the other parties. That it's about business is important, but irrelevant to the main point. Sorry, details like that shouldn't become public unless those involved want them to be, period. You're right. Which is why, as I've said repeatedly, I edited out my post (obviously irrelevant because it's been quoted 490340 times), and won't do something like that again. I realize that people disagree with this action and despite the fact that I don't necessarily see the harm, I won't be doing it. The only reason I'm continuing to post is because I enjoy the debate about publicly stating this kind of information. Personally, I think it's interesting and I for one would love to see all this stuff be public, I think it'd be helpful. | ||
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Shebuha
Canada1335 Posts
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Jugan
United States1566 Posts
On January 16 2012 16:36 ritzia1 wrote: So many Koreans leaving for foreign teams, kinda annoying to see this now. Nonetheless good luck to Golden. It's most likely because they're underpaid, which is why a number of BW progamers quit when the teams fell apart. | ||
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ritoky
United States6851 Posts
On January 17 2012 10:05 Xeris wrote: You're right. Which is why, as I've said repeatedly, I edited out my post (obviously irrelevant because it's been quoted 490340 times), and won't do something like that again. I realize that people disagree with this action and despite the fact that I don't necessarily see the harm, I won't be doing it. The only reason I'm continuing to post is because I enjoy the debate about publicly stating this kind of information. Personally, I think it's interesting and I for one would love to see all this stuff be public, I think it'd be helpful. Let's do a thought experiment then, that has a significant basis in reality and the competitive game market (specifically WC3). Suppose you work in let's say an insurance office. One day, without anyone's consent, the employer decides that he is going to post everyone's salaries up on a board for everyone to view. You go to view your salary and notice yourself in the lower half. Let's say there is a man named John who is quite a bit above you in pay grade but does the exact same job. You review the statistics and you sold twice as many insurance policies as he did for the past 3 months running; but he has been here 5 years longer. What do you do? Some people will simply say to themselves, you know what that guy has seniority and those are probably cost of living and loyalty adjustments and if I go at this rate for the same amt of time I will probably make more than he does. Others will find this a travesty and get pissed and demand more. If they don't get what they want they may seek other work, and now the company is screwed out of a better salesperson. Now what is the point of this all in regards to transparency of information in regards to player salaries and business. Well transparency in its ideal form sounds amazing. We all get to know everything, so that we can examine it, adjust our business models, and more easily spot flaws/embezzling/etc. The problem isn't with your idealistic sense of wanting more transparency and information. It is actually with the players and the companies (teams). Ego is the problem. And even more specifically you need to consider the age and maturity level of your "employees". I hate to beat a dead horse, but MajOr has not exactly demonstrated professionalism in the past, yet there is no doubt that he is an extremely skilled player. Perhaps he finds out that a player he beats regularly in tournaments and on ladders makes double what he does. He could very well up his price tag based on his conception of self-worth and we could have a market that inflates very quickly. On the business end and in terms of diversity, that cause consolidation. If a player market experienced massive inflation, then only larger teams with larger budgets would be able to afford players who drew eyeballs. Small teams would begin to die off, and we would have WC3. Now all of this said, I am by no means against transparency in regards to this info. But you would have to find a clever way to minimize the effects of people and their conceptions on the system. If it was strictly business and data, then it would be much simpler. | ||
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mathsucks
194 Posts
On January 17 2012 10:05 Xeris wrote: I realize that people disagree with this action and despite the fact that I don't necessarily see the harm, I won't be doing it. While you may not see harm being on your end, I think the harm comes in intangibles. If I were a manager of a team and my team wanted a player who was asking $Y and just got shut down by another team, I'd offer him less than $Y given that I know the demand for him does not match what he's asking for (at least to that team)...thereby giving me bargaining power to lowball the player. I know if I were applying for jobs at $100k and kept getting rejected and someone came along and offered me $80k I'd probably take it. | ||
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RezChi
Canada2368 Posts
On January 16 2012 16:58 Kennigit wrote: I think its really inappropriate to release information you learned while under the employment of a team, especially when you are still involved in the industry. It's like incontrol coming out with statements about NASL's finances, their projections, goals etc. Especially with a team, where your scouting methods are kept close to the chest, your bargaining position. Its just really bad imo. Boss answer. | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
On January 17 2012 10:19 mathsucks wrote: While you may not see harm being on your end, I think the harm comes in intangibles. If I were a manager of a team and my team wanted a player who was asking $Y and just got shut down by another team, I'd offer him less than $Y given that I know the demand for him does not match what he's asking for (at least to that team)...thereby giving me bargaining power to lowball the player. I know if I were applying for jobs at $100k and kept getting rejected and someone came along and offered me $80k I'd probably take it. Yes I agree with you. | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
On January 17 2012 09:58 Rabbet wrote: Everyone knows that the straw and cup cost McDonalds more than the syrup and water to make the soda and that combined they don't cost more the 2.5 cents....but people still pay $1.50 for it. Having worked in retail before that's not really true...but point taken, haha. | ||
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Rabbet
Canada404 Posts
On January 17 2012 10:19 ritoky wrote: Let's do a thought experiment then, that has a significant basis in reality and the competitive game market (specifically WC3). Suppose you work in let's say an insurance office. One day, without anyone's consent, the employer decides that he is going to post everyone's salaries up on a board for everyone to view. You go to view your salary and notice yourself in the lower half. Let's say there is a man named John who is quite a bit above you in pay grade but does the exact same job. You review the statistics and you sold twice as many insurance policies as he did for the past 3 months running; but he has been here 5 years longer. What do you do? Some people will simply say to themselves, you know what that guy has seniority and those are probably cost of living and loyalty adjustments and if I go at this rate for the same amt of time I will probably make more than he does. Others will find this a travesty and get pissed and demand more. If they don't get what they want they may seek other work, and now the company is screwed out of a better salesperson. Now what is the point of this all in regards to transparency of information in regards to player salaries and business. Well transparency in its ideal form sounds amazing. We all get to know everything, so that we can examine it, adjust our business models, and more easily spot flaws/embezzling/etc. The problem isn't with your idealistic sense of wanting more transparency and information. It is actually with the players and the companies (teams). Ego is the problem. And even more specifically you need to consider the age and maturity level of your "employees". I hate to beat a dead horse, but MajOr has not exactly demonstrated professionalism in the past, yet there is no doubt that he is an extremely skilled player. Perhaps he finds out that a player he beats regularly in tournaments and on ladders makes double what he does. He could very well up his price tag based on his conception of self-worth and we could have a market that inflates very quickly. On the business end and in terms of diversity, that cause consolidation. If a player market experienced massive inflation, then only larger teams with larger budgets would be able to afford players who drew eyeballs. Small teams would begin to die off, and we would have WC3. Now all of this said, I am by no means against transparency in regards to this info. But you would have to find a clever way to minimize the effects of people and their conceptions on the system. If it was strictly business and data, then it would be much simpler. There are always two parties in contract negotiations with both parties in the position to not sign and pursue other opportunities. WC3 died off for a good reason, there is no market for it. | ||
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BasilForSkin
United States115 Posts
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xxgeffxx
United States119 Posts
On a serious note: It could be possible that these players have already given this leaving their korean team in hopes of getting picked up by a foreign team a good deal of thought already. Most people think about what they are going to do at least the next day when they no longer have a team or place to stay. No person is stupid enough to give up the place they've lived without having a place to stay at least for a couple of nights. Golden is 17, which means he will most likely just live with his parents again. I think a smart thing for these players to do is at least go to school/work another job in addition to streaming(to gain exposure). | ||
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Oreo7
United States1647 Posts
On January 17 2012 01:56 HyTex wrote: This thread is a great example of why 99.9% of the fan base should never go pro. You work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for less than Federal Minimum Wage. Working at McDonald's is literally a better life than progaming, unless you're one of the 0.0001% of the populace that makes it to super-stardom. If you're doing it for the money, you're doing it wrong. | ||
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Rabbet
Canada404 Posts
On January 17 2012 10:47 BasilForSkin wrote: I have heard for a while that everyone in the know, knows how much people are getting paid and what salaries are and whatnot. What difference does it make if the public knows, especially if the people who really matter (ie the people in the know) know? Sorry for any incoherence. If player's salaries become common knowledge then you start to hear "This guy gets 100k per year?!?! He got rofl stomped hardcore 4-0'd in a showmatch, why is he paid so much?!?1" No industry wants to deal with the PR involved with defending salaries, although in the end it tunes the industry in and helps deliver a better product. The example above is hypothetical, but if a player were getting 100k per year salary(or more) and gave a terrible showing at a hyped up showmatch or event then the fans and sponsors have a legitimate concern. Similar to the Naniwa incident where he probe rushed, the guy is paid to be a pro and give us what we want as consumers. | ||
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cutler
Germany609 Posts
On January 17 2012 06:56 mTwTT1 wrote: no one cares about my background? are u fucking serious? LOL Well u got signed by MTW. I have a lot of respect for this team. So i think they dont care about your background but your skills at this game. Seems like in the end it is about skill.Thats why i came to this conclusion... Correct me if i am wrong. People still flaming you on TL...well thats another story. back to topic: I think Dragon will find an Team regardless of this so called "scandal" | ||
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michielbrands
Netherlands1146 Posts
a) Other players in a team don't need to know what you get, for all players goes the same, you have to do your best and that's what you get paid for. You shouldn't be intrested in other players salaries, the only reason for you to ask for a higher salary is when you think you deserve that. Not because someone else gets more... b) What your salary is, is something private. Not everyone needs to know what I get for the work I do, that's my concern. Only the Goverment (taxes) and my employer need to know what my Salary is. All other have nothing to do with what I earn and how I spend it. c) Your negotiating position gets F@#$ed up, other teams already know what you kinda wants to get offered so the entire game of the opening bid is gone. d) The entire player salary market gets Screwed, when Sleep asks $ 1.500,-, then player X who thinks he is better then Sleep ask $ 2.000,- because he will think that's reasonable.... and so on and so on..... | ||
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RuMCaKe
United States559 Posts
I think Golden will be a great pick up for someone, to be honest I haven't watched Dragon much. Looking forward to seeing where they end up! | ||
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
On January 17 2012 16:00 michielbrands wrote: d) The entire player salary market gets Screwed, when Sleep asks $ 1.500,-, then player X who thinks he is better then Sleep ask $ 2.000,- because he will think that's reasonable.... and so on and so on..... Ehh, this one isn't really valid. If someone is looking for a salary, I see no reason why they should have to make a random guess. That's what it seems like Sleep is doing to begin with. If all the players had a rough idea, they could look at a player like HuK (who is highly marketable and skilled) and base their possible salary demands off that. If they're half as skilled and a quarter as marketable, they know where they fit in terms of pay. I mean, this is the same concept we follow in the real world in normal careers. I expect a competitive salary for my field, something I can judge because salary information isn't a secret. On top of that, I know what kind of raises to expect with different conditions like degrees. If I had to guess without a real basis, I would never know if I'm being exploited (I have no doubt that some top players are making far less than they could if they knew what to ask for) or if I'm asking for too much (which is what Sleep is clearly doing). Precisely because salary information is available, I know what my degree is worth, I know what people in my field make, and as a result I'm treated fairly. Now obviously players and organizations may want to hide their salaries from the public (although I'm not 100% sure why -- is it because they're afraid of backlash or ridicule? I mean, professional athletes' salaries are all transparent...), but I'd hope other progamers are aware of what their peers make. It looks like Sleep (and several other players) may not be however. | ||
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