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United States918 Posts
On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote:
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k .
Holy hell that is poor form. If I was Sleep or Sangho, I would be seriously pissed right now.
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On January 17 2012 09:03 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote:
Just to clear things up, neither of these players lived in house. From my sources Slayers runs a program somewhat like this:
- New players are recruited based on their skill and potential.
- Most new players are given a spot in the Slayers house for a month or a few (LotS).
- Based on their play, rate of improvement, etc... they either become permanent or are out of the house.
- New talent is brought in to replace the gaps in residency.
If I remember correctly, Golden got the boot from the team house, and Dragon never actually was in the team house. It is also important to note both these players were the first few on the Slayers roster: Dragon (Mio) was picked up after WeRRa disbanded on recommendation from Cella, and Golden shortly after leaving fOu. Basically both of them weren't destined for residence in the team house and by extension, probably not getting paid travel at any point.
Their A team live in the team house and the B team live outside.
Also, I believe the order of the event was: Mio gets kicked from WeRRa -> A few weeks later GundamWeRRa scandal occurs -> WeRRa disbands after a few days of utter chaos.
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On January 17 2012 06:56 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 05:02 cutler wrote:
Dragon scandal...sorry i had to laugh hard. Nobody is caring in the foreign scene about that.
Look at Dimaga, TT1 etc...nobody cares anymore about their background since they promised
to change...and to be honest i believe them.
So i see now reason besides his full time work not to join a good team in EU or NA. no one cares about my background? are u fucking serious? LOL
why would anyone care about a player who's bad?
you are at the bottom of the pro barrel
User was warned for this post
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On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
you may think it's smart to release information information about player salary requests. Want to know what every team manager learned from this thread? That if we want to get Killer or Sleep we know at exactly what price point Fnatic is not a threat. There's now tangible backing for their market value and and also gives a better picture of where Fnatic lies financially, the types of players they can afford and where teams should base their pricing. Those types of comments harm players bargaining power.
This actually makes sense.
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The work ethic, critical thinking and problem solving abilities, etc. is absolutely insane and could easily help you in getting a job.
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On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
This sort of statement is literally killing esports.
Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
If player wages are inflated or deflated, making salaries public would introduce stability into the market. When players become free agents, a market in which assessing the value of the agent with reference to other players is possible is the best possible scenario.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On January 17 2012 09:23 Derrida wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand?
Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. And the reason you see player salaries being released publicly in NFL, NBA etc is because athletic commissions require it. Same in boxing/MMA.
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On January 17 2012 09:25 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:23 Derrida wrote:On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand? Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy.
Sure, I see your reasoning. But if no other teams than your team also do not consider offering Sleep higher than this bottom line, than Sleep's bottom line is actually miscalculated. On the other hand, if his bottom line is lower than it should be, teams would start out-bidding each other, therefore setting the effective price of the player.
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The cake is a lie.
That's all I have to say.
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Holy crap Dragon left too?!
I know he wasn't in the training house alrdy but still, that's the best enviroment to be in atm if you wanna be the best. It's literally the only way.
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On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. I'd be fucking furious if someone was discussing my price points publicly.
There's a very big difference in how salary discussions are treated between Western and Asian culture. IIRC in Korea and other Asian cultures it's not considered taboo at all to discuss salary stuff publicly. It's considered a personal questions in the West but it's debatable as to whether that is a benefit to the employee or employer.
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United States918 Posts
On January 17 2012 09:23 Derrida wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand? If player wages are inflated or deflated, making salaries public would introduce stability into the market. When players become free agents, a market in which assessing the value of the agent with reference to other players is possible is the best possible scenario.
I don't see how the dynamic is different here to any other professional environment. Imagine you were a highly qualified worker being approached by a leading company. You go through rounds of negotiation over salary, but don't reach an agreement. One of the people who interviewed you behind closed doors then goes and makes your requested salary public. It would be an enormous faux pas. Said interviewer would likely have difficulty finding a future employer.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On January 17 2012 09:29 Derrida wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:25 Kennigit wrote:On January 17 2012 09:23 Derrida wrote:On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand? Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. Sure, I see your reasoning. But if no other teams than your team also do not consider offering Sleep higher than this bottom line, than Sleep's bottom line is actually miscalculated. On the other hand, if his bottom line is lower than it should be, teams would start out-bidding each other, therefore setting the effective price of the player.
I agree, the evaluation isn't based purely on where Sleep's bottom line is - it's also based on if he brings that level of value to the team, sponsors etc, and it varies quite a bit between teams. I still think its very unprofessional, if players wanted their salaries public i think they would be discussing them - there are no NDA's (afaik) on them, and a lot of them don't want it discussed.
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On January 17 2012 09:25 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:23 Derrida wrote:On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand? Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy.
I don't think you know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is based on Xeris' statement.
Xeris said that when they approcahed Sleep, he was asking for something in a range. Not when they were close to making a deal, not when they bargained him down to his bottom line, but what he asked for when approached. Presumably the same range he would be asking for from whatever team approached him. Based on this statement, you know exactly roughly what range of salary Sleep might ask for if you approached him. That's hardly a deal breaker, and I don't see why Sleep or anyone else would be furious about this being public.
No one said Sleep's bottom line was X, we found X after neogtiating with him, don't offer him any more since he will accept X. I'd understand why people would be furious over a statement like that. But you seem to be being a bit hyperbolic by suggesting Xeris' statement ruined any bargaining position Sleep may have. Unless he's looking for radically different salaries from different team who approach him, I don't see how you could think Xeris' statement was a problem.
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On January 17 2012 09:25 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:23 Derrida wrote:On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand? Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. And the reason you see player salaries being released publicly in NFL, NBA etc is because athletic commissions require it. Same in boxing/MMA.
Makes 100% sense. Think of when you go to buy a car. You don't go say "I'll buy that car at sticker price" because you know you can go lower than that and get a better deal. Imagine if you knew exactly how low the dealer was going to go before he said no, you'd just skip right to that number right? Same logic goes with players.
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On January 17 2012 09:33 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:29 Derrida wrote:On January 17 2012 09:25 Kennigit wrote:On January 17 2012 09:23 Derrida wrote:On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand? Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. Sure, I see your reasoning. But if no other teams than your team also do not consider offering Sleep higher than this bottom line, than Sleep's bottom line is actually miscalculated. On the other hand, if his bottom line is lower than it should be, teams would start out-bidding each other, therefore setting the effective price of the player. I agree, the evaluation isn't based purely on where Sleep's bottom line is - it's also based on if he brings that level of value to the team, sponsors etc, and it varies quite a bit between teams. I still think its very unprofessional, if players wanted their salaries public i think they would be discussing them - there are no NDA's (afaik) on them, and a lot of them don't want it discussed.
In the West yes. Not so much there. That and the sponsors are using those NDAs against the players especially when it comes to their options.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On January 17 2012 09:34 MercilessMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:25 Kennigit wrote:On January 17 2012 09:23 Derrida wrote:On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand? Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. I don't think you know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is based on Xeris' statement. Xeris said that when they approcahed Sleep, he was asking for something in a range. Not when they were close to making a deal, not when they bargained him down to his bottom line, but what he asked for when approached. Presumably the same range he would be asking for from whatever team approached him. Based on this statement, you know exactly roughly what range of salary Sleep might ask for if you approached him. That's hardly a deal breaker, and I don't see why Sleep or anyone else would be furious about this being public. No one said Sleep's bottom line was X, we found X after neogtiating with him, don't offer him any more since he will accept X. I'd understand why people would be furious over a statement like that. But you seem to be being a bit hyperbolic by suggesting Xeris' statement ruined any bargaining position Sleep may have. Unless he's looking for radically different salaries from different team who approach him, I don't see how you could think Xeris' statement was a problem.
Range is all that's needed imo. I don't know what Sleep could get as if he started a bidding war, but we all have a good idea where that base of that discussion is. I also know that 1500 is "too much" for fnatic for a player of sleep's quality (sleep should know that and fnatic, not me).
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On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:you may think it's smart and honorable to release information about player salary negociations. Want to know what every team manager learned from this thread? That if we want to get Killer or Sleep we know at exactly what price point Fnatic is not a threat. There's now tangible backing for those players market value and and also gives a better picture of where Fnatic lies financially, the types of players they can afford and where teams should base their evaluations. Those types of comments seriously harm players bargaining power. Imagine im a team owner with a big budget and decided to make an opening offer of 2k to Sleep. Now imagine that i know exactly where his bottom line is..... Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 16:42 Xeris wrote:
I.E. I know when I was still with Fnatic, we approached Sleep, and he was asking for something in the range of $1.5k .. I know Sangho is currently looking for something along the lines of $3k . This sort of statement is literally killing esports. I'd be fucking furious if someone was discussing my price points publicly.
Dude, I 100% disagree with you. All the information I posted tells you is:
a) Sleep wants 1k
b) Fnatic didn't want to pay 1k for him
First off - the fact that Sleep didn't join a team most likely suggests nobody offered him what he was looking for. Which means that his "bottom" line might not even be a bottom line and that he could potentially sign for something lower if he likes the offer. There's 209420943290 different factors a team weighs when choosing who to sign and how much to pay him. I'm 100% sure Fnatic can afford to get Sleep if they wanted, but there a bunch of reasons why not (you'll find out why tomorrow, then maybe rethink this post Kennigit).
For example, a team might say, "for 1k I want more of a marketable personality and I don't think Sleep fits that mold," so they don't offer him 1k, despite being able to afford it.
I really don't get why you're so torn up about this... Again, initially the only reason I mentioned it is because I was using it as a reference to say that Koreans seem to generally have unrealistic salary expectations.
*EDIT*
I also know that 1500 is "too much" for fnatic for a player of sleep's quality (sleep should know that and fnatic, not me).
If you think this is true, then you're putting words in my mouth. I never said Fnatic can't afford Sleep, I said Fnatic didn't want to pay 1k... those 2 are very different, you should know that Kennigit
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That's the thing. They aren't regulated; hence, its a free market. Whoop, whoop. ;o
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EPT
