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On January 17 2012 09:37 Kennigit wrote:
Range is all that's needed imo. I don't know what Sleep could get as if he started a bidding war, but we all have a good idea where that base of that discussion is. I also know that 1500 is "too much" for fnatic for a player of sleep's quality (sleep should know that and fnatic, not me).
Ok ya I wasn't thinking about it from a team's perspective. I definitely see where you're coming from when you say Fnatic might be upset about it; it sheds some light on their finanaces for other teams, and I can see why it might hurt their bargaining position.
But it seemed that a lot of people were focusing on Sleep being upset, which is more the point I was trying to make.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Because when sleep says to Fnatic, "this is the rate im looking for" he doesn't expect it to be public. The same when i go to a sponsor for TSL and give them a number, i don't expect them to write a blog saying "well kennigit asked me for X but i didn't see the value in it"....I may have been able to get that amount from a competitor but now it's public that another company decided it wasn't worth it - that absolutely has an impact on their evaluation (because they know i cant bid them against each other). When EG signs a sponsor they dont release a statement saying "we were looking for $X and we managed to find a deal with Y".
If Quantic wants to get Sleep tomorrow, they now know that (for whatever reasons) Sleep wasn't worth 1500 to Fnatic. They are announcing a new player so the situation at best is the same (depending when that discussion took place, because their budget is similar). I may not know what other teams are making bids on Sleep, but i know past a certain point it's very likely not to be fnatic. Thats bad.
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On January 17 2012 09:43 Kennigit wrote:
Because when sleep says to Fnatic, "this is the rate im looking for" he doesn't expect it to be public. The same when i go to a sponsor for TSL and give them a number, i don't expect them to write a blog saying "well kennigit asked me for X but i didn't see the value in it"....When EG signs a sponsor they dont release a statement saying "we were looking for $X and we managed to find a deal with Y".
From your perspective sure, and in the west sure.
But.
On January 17 2012 09:32 R1CH wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. I'd be fucking furious if someone was discussing my price points publicly. There's a very big difference in how salary discussions are treated between Western and Asian culture. IIRC in Korea and other Asian cultures it's not considered taboo at all to discuss salary stuff publicly. It's considered a personal questions in the West but it's debatable as to whether that is a benefit to the employee or employer.
It's not to say someone should go by a double standard.
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On January 17 2012 09:42 MercilessMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:37 Kennigit wrote:
Range is all that's needed imo. I don't know what Sleep could get as if he started a bidding war, but we all have a good idea where that base of that discussion is. I also know that 1500 is "too much" for fnatic for a player of sleep's quality (sleep should know that and fnatic, not me). Ok ya I wasn't thinking about it from a team's perspective. I definitely see where you're coming from when you say Fnatic might be upset about it; it sheds some light on their finanaces for other teams, and I can see why it might hurt their bargaining position. But it seemed that a lot of people were focusing on Sleep being upset, which is more the point I was trying to make.
It doesnt shed any light about the finances of the team actually... it doesn't do anything. The only thing you can glean about Fnatic's finances would be a really grossly misunderstood reading of my post, and basically just be a random opinion, because I didn't post any factual data about Fnatic finances.
I said, Sleep asked for $X. I didn't say, "Fnatic can't afford $X" , etc
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On January 17 2012 09:45 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:42 MercilessMonkey wrote:On January 17 2012 09:37 Kennigit wrote:
Range is all that's needed imo. I don't know what Sleep could get as if he started a bidding war, but we all have a good idea where that base of that discussion is. I also know that 1500 is "too much" for fnatic for a player of sleep's quality (sleep should know that and fnatic, not me). Ok ya I wasn't thinking about it from a team's perspective. I definitely see where you're coming from when you say Fnatic might be upset about it; it sheds some light on their finanaces for other teams, and I can see why it might hurt their bargaining position. But it seemed that a lot of people were focusing on Sleep being upset, which is more the point I was trying to make. It doesnt shed any light about the finances of the team actually... it doesn't do anything. The only thing you can glean about Fnatic's finances would be a really grossly misunderstood reading of my post, and basically just be a random opinion, because I didn't post any factual data about Fnatic finances. I said, Sleep asked for $X. I didn't say, "Fnatic can't afford $X" , etc
It doesn't let you conclude things about Fnatic's finances, but it certainly provides a data point. It's just really bad form imo.
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On January 17 2012 09:48 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:45 Xeris wrote:On January 17 2012 09:42 MercilessMonkey wrote:On January 17 2012 09:37 Kennigit wrote:
Range is all that's needed imo. I don't know what Sleep could get as if he started a bidding war, but we all have a good idea where that base of that discussion is. I also know that 1500 is "too much" for fnatic for a player of sleep's quality (sleep should know that and fnatic, not me). Ok ya I wasn't thinking about it from a team's perspective. I definitely see where you're coming from when you say Fnatic might be upset about it; it sheds some light on their finanaces for other teams, and I can see why it might hurt their bargaining position. But it seemed that a lot of people were focusing on Sleep being upset, which is more the point I was trying to make. It doesnt shed any light about the finances of the team actually... it doesn't do anything. The only thing you can glean about Fnatic's finances would be a really grossly misunderstood reading of my post, and basically just be a random opinion, because I didn't post any factual data about Fnatic finances. I said, Sleep asked for $X. I didn't say, "Fnatic can't afford $X" , etc It doesn't let you conclude anything, but it certainly provides a data point.
Actually it doesn't, all it says is that at that point in time Fnatic didn't think those players were worth that kind of money. If you glean anything at all from that it is all speculation going on in your head with no reference to reality.
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On January 17 2012 09:48 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:45 Xeris wrote:On January 17 2012 09:42 MercilessMonkey wrote:On January 17 2012 09:37 Kennigit wrote:
Range is all that's needed imo. I don't know what Sleep could get as if he started a bidding war, but we all have a good idea where that base of that discussion is. I also know that 1500 is "too much" for fnatic for a player of sleep's quality (sleep should know that and fnatic, not me). Ok ya I wasn't thinking about it from a team's perspective. I definitely see where you're coming from when you say Fnatic might be upset about it; it sheds some light on their finanaces for other teams, and I can see why it might hurt their bargaining position. But it seemed that a lot of people were focusing on Sleep being upset, which is more the point I was trying to make. It doesnt shed any light about the finances of the team actually... it doesn't do anything. The only thing you can glean about Fnatic's finances would be a really grossly misunderstood reading of my post, and basically just be a random opinion, because I didn't post any factual data about Fnatic finances. I said, Sleep asked for $X. I didn't say, "Fnatic can't afford $X" , etc It doesn't let you conclude anything, but it certainly provides a data point.
You're right, it gives you a data point, but what does that really do? I don't really understand how that influences your behavior at all. For example. I am a team owner now, I see "Sleep wants $X," but personally I can't afford that value. I look and say, "sleep has been looking for a team for 3-4 months, he must not get any offers of $X." So I'd think to myself, "well maybe hes realized his valuation is too high, I'm going to offer him $(X-Y) now"
Knowing that data point wouldn't influence my behavior at all. And if you want to make random conjectures like "ok so Fnatic didnt sign him at $X so it means they cant afford $X," and base your decision making on that then that's just a really bad way to make decisions, dunno what to say
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Become a professional poker player, then everyone will feel a right to know how much you make... SC2 pros are taking it easy.
I disagree with Kennigit, not paying that much to a second string korean isn't about fnatic strategy, but mere common sense. At most it's an indiscretion towards the players, but that's between them and Xeris.
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On January 17 2012 09:25 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:23 Derrida wrote:On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand? Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. And the reason you see player salaries being released publicly in NFL, NBA etc is because athletic commissions require it. Same in boxing/MMA.
That's not even the problem. The problem lies in Xeris very clearly dropping the ball on sleep and sangho's PRIVATE talks.
He had no permission to do so. Completely destroyed yourself in one post Xeris, and there is no excuse because of the work you have done you should know better.
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I dont see what the big deal is. If the players were asking for that much then that means that they would want for every team to know that. Thats how much they want to get picked up for after all. I dont know if they might be angered by it becoming public, but honestly its just better for the whole community and esports in general once all the salaries are known.
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On January 17 2012 09:52 Trict wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:25 Kennigit wrote:On January 17 2012 09:23 Derrida wrote:On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand? Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. And the reason you see player salaries being released publicly in NFL, NBA etc is because athletic commissions require it. Same in boxing/MMA. That's not even the problem. The problem lies in Xeris very clearly dropping the ball on sleep and sangho's PRIVATE talks. He had no permission to do so. Completely destroyed yourself in one post Xeris, and there is no excuse because of the work you have done you should know better.
It would depend if Sleep and Sangho thought that the information disclosed was to be kept confidential.
As R1CH posted earlier.
On January 17 2012 09:32 R1CH wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. I'd be fucking furious if someone was discussing my price points publicly. There's a very big difference in how salary discussions are treated between Western and Asian culture. IIRC in Korea and other Asian cultures it's not considered taboo at all to discuss salary stuff publicly. It's considered a personal questions in the West but it's debatable as to whether that is a benefit to the employee or employer.
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If you personally disagree with my stating those figures, I totally understand. I have a lot of respect for you, so I edited my original and I won't post that kind of information again, but I disagree with your view.
There are clearly people who think that this isn't a huge deal, etc... it's just two different viewpoints.
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On January 17 2012 09:52 Trict wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:25 Kennigit wrote:On January 17 2012 09:23 Derrida wrote:On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand? Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. And the reason you see player salaries being released publicly in NFL, NBA etc is because athletic commissions require it. Same in boxing/MMA. That's not even the problem. The problem lies in Xeris very clearly dropping the ball on sleep and sangho's PRIVATE talks. He had no permission to do so. Completely destroyed yourself in one post Xeris, and there is no excuse because of the work you have done you should know better.
It would depend on whether Sleep and SangHo feel like it's something they should be angry about, which we won't ever really know, tbh.
Getting angry and defensive on someone else's behalf when that person may not even care that much is just a waste of time and energy.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On January 17 2012 09:50 Fluffboll wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:48 Kennigit wrote:On January 17 2012 09:45 Xeris wrote:On January 17 2012 09:42 MercilessMonkey wrote:On January 17 2012 09:37 Kennigit wrote:
Range is all that's needed imo. I don't know what Sleep could get as if he started a bidding war, but we all have a good idea where that base of that discussion is. I also know that 1500 is "too much" for fnatic for a player of sleep's quality (sleep should know that and fnatic, not me). Ok ya I wasn't thinking about it from a team's perspective. I definitely see where you're coming from when you say Fnatic might be upset about it; it sheds some light on their finanaces for other teams, and I can see why it might hurt their bargaining position. But it seemed that a lot of people were focusing on Sleep being upset, which is more the point I was trying to make. It doesnt shed any light about the finances of the team actually... it doesn't do anything. The only thing you can glean about Fnatic's finances would be a really grossly misunderstood reading of my post, and basically just be a random opinion, because I didn't post any factual data about Fnatic finances. I said, Sleep asked for $X. I didn't say, "Fnatic can't afford $X" , etc It doesn't let you conclude anything, but it certainly provides a data point. Actually it doesn't, all it says is that at that point in time Fnatic didn't think those players were worth that kind of money. If you glean anything at all from that it is all speculation going on in your head with no reference to reality.
I wrote a massive reply but the tl;dr without causing more drama is that theres only a couple points that are public (via Xeris). You can't draw conclusions from them directly and it would be stupid to do so. The issue is that in the industry, those aren't necessarily the only points that are public. You have no idea what data points Teams have on prior bidding wars in the last 6-8 months, leaks, sponsor wars. All of that stuff. I started to write examples, but then i'd actually get in trouble so lets just leave it.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On January 17 2012 09:53 Xeris wrote:
If you personally disagree with my stating those figures, I totally understand. I have a lot of respect for you, so I edited my original and I won't post that kind of information again, but I disagree with your view.
There are clearly people who think that this isn't a huge deal, etc... it's just two different viewpoints.
Ask the people who it will affect if they think it isn't a huge deal, don't judge by yourself
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On January 17 2012 09:52 Trict wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:25 Kennigit wrote:On January 17 2012 09:23 Derrida wrote:On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand? Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. And the reason you see player salaries being released publicly in NFL, NBA etc is because athletic commissions require it. Same in boxing/MMA. That's not even the problem. The problem lies in Xeris very clearly dropping the ball on sleep and sangho's PRIVATE talks. He had no permission to do so. Completely destroyed yourself in one post Xeris, and there is no excuse because of the work you have done you should know better.
It's been clearly stated that most players/teams/etc already know what people are asking for and how much people make. The most of TL isn't in a position to do anything with this information other than say, "wow thats kinda neat knowing a bit of insight into this world that I am looking at from the outside,"
It really doesn't affect anyone's decision making process at a significant or meaningful stage.
I agree, from some point of view, what I did was incorrect -- which is why I edited my post and won't be doing so again... but from another perspective, as R1CH stated, and even FXOBoss said earlier, discussing these things publicly is commonplace and not bad at all.
Just depends on your pov. Jumping all over me isn't the right way to go. I appreciate Kennigits responses because he's trying to explain his point of view and discuss this rationally.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On January 17 2012 09:53 Xeris wrote:
If you personally disagree with my stating those figures, I totally understand. I have a lot of respect for you, so I edited my original and I won't post that kind of information again, but I disagree with your view.
There are clearly people who think that this isn't a huge deal, etc... it's just two different viewpoints.
Listen, in all honesty i shouldn't be upset at all (and i'm not, im just trying to articulate why i think its bad for teams and players alike). I should keep my mouth shut and write it down for future reference because that sort of stuff helps in competition. My post above kind of beat around the point, but it just provides an extra piece of information to teams that is really valuable. Maybe Fnatic CEO or sleep come into the thread and say they dont care, but i'd be surprised.
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On January 17 2012 09:53 echO [W] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:52 Trict wrote:On January 17 2012 09:25 Kennigit wrote:On January 17 2012 09:23 Derrida wrote:On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand? Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. And the reason you see player salaries being released publicly in NFL, NBA etc is because athletic commissions require it. Same in boxing/MMA. That's not even the problem. The problem lies in Xeris very clearly dropping the ball on sleep and sangho's PRIVATE talks. He had no permission to do so. Completely destroyed yourself in one post Xeris, and there is no excuse because of the work you have done you should know better. It would depend if Sleep and Sangho thought that the information disclosed was to be kept confidential.
The mere fact that we haven't heard any talks about other salaries is representation that they want it confidential.
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Everyone knows that the straw and cup cost McDonalds more than the syrup and water to make the soda and that combined they don't cost more the 2.5 cents....but people still pay $1.50 for it.
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On January 17 2012 09:56 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:52 Trict wrote:On January 17 2012 09:25 Kennigit wrote:On January 17 2012 09:23 Derrida wrote:On January 17 2012 08:57 Kennigit wrote:
This sort of statement is literally killing esports. Why? Would you care to elaborate why you think Starcraft II scene has different market dynamics compared to any other market functioning on supply/demand? Because i now know exactly where Sleep's bottom line is and if i owned a team would never make an opening offer higher than it? The problem isn't having players salaries being public - the problem is releasing information on their bargaining strategy. And the reason you see player salaries being released publicly in NFL, NBA etc is because athletic commissions require it. Same in boxing/MMA. That's not even the problem. The problem lies in Xeris very clearly dropping the ball on sleep and sangho's PRIVATE talks. He had no permission to do so. Completely destroyed yourself in one post Xeris, and there is no excuse because of the work you have done you should know better. It's been clearly stated that most players/teams/etc already know what people are asking for and how much people make. The most of TL isn't in a position to do anything with this information other than say, "wow thats kinda neat knowing a bit of insight into this world that I am looking at from the outside," It really doesn't affect anyone's decision making process at a significant or meaningful stage. I agree, from some point of view, what I did was incorrect -- which is why I edited my post and won't be doing so again... but from another perspective, as R1CH stated, and even FXOBoss said earlier, discussing these things publicly is commonplace and not bad at all. Just depends on your pov. Jumping all over me isn't the right way to go. I appreciate Kennigits responses because he's trying to explain his point of view and discuss this rationally.
Did they tell you that you could publically announce there discussions with you? Because if not you have no right to.
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EPT
