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On January 16 2012 19:31 Duravi wrote:
Ok here is a problem with the analogy between pro sports risks and esports risks. Many good highschool players get a SCHOLARSHIP to a good University, get a degree, and never go Pro. You cannot get a scholarship for esports. You completely postpone your education, and playing esports is of no benefit to it even if you wish to do both. The amount of players who go Pro straight out of highschool is incredibly small, and that is what you are comparing esports to. The risk in traditional sports is much much lower, and I would never advise any young person to put 100% effort into esports.
you're kidding me. you mean the risks of planning your future in a sport where everyone in a league gets paid millions of dollars are less than in a new industry where someone is happy to be paid $750 a month in sponsorship? SERIOUSLY? you must be an actuary or something!
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Golden AND DRAGON left SlayerS? nooooo
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On January 16 2012 19:31 mockturtle wrote:
to this and all other arguments like it:
no one is getting into starcraft for the money or career prospects. every single player making decent money was a serious amateur gaming competitor in the years and games before and getting paid peanuts, if anything. if you love to play war3 or starcraft or cs or whatever so much you were one of the best players in the world, you'd be stupid or a coward not to jump at the chance to pay your bills doing the same thing for a few years unless you had a REALLY pressing reason not to (like, your baby sister has cancer and your parents are dead and you have to work three jobs to pay for chemo).
This is already pretty obvious and hardly needs to be restated imo, the question is about players like Golden who are relatively new/unknown compared to people like Grubby/Boxer/etc who could still be in high school and whether making these big risks trying to be "the next best thing" is actually a smart thing to do.
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On January 16 2012 19:42 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 19:38 Seraphone wrote:On January 16 2012 19:35 JustPassingBy wrote:On January 16 2012 19:04 Seraphone wrote:On January 16 2012 18:59 Jojo131 wrote:On January 16 2012 18:51 Tnerb wrote:On January 16 2012 18:44 Inori wrote:On January 16 2012 18:31 Seraphone wrote:On January 16 2012 18:26 Inori wrote:On January 16 2012 18:07 Seraphone wrote:
So basically professional players are doing great.
If a guy like Catz comes under Tier 3 of Xeris's guide then he's earning $5-10k a year from salary, plus free transport/accomodation at events, plus he's won $5000 and he has his stream money.
So basically he's earning a solid wage playing games all day despite being a largely unremarkable player.
The higher end guys Ret, Thorzain, TLO, Morrow etc.. are making way more money than your standard 18-23 year old makes and they get to play games all day. You're forgetting that "your standard 18-23 year old" is getting actual real-world experience in a field of his choice. 10-15 years from now they will be working as lead specialists in that field. I can't imagine anyone still playing video games for a living at 35-40 (I mean there certainly will be somebody doing so, but it will be very RARE), so those pro-gamers 10-15 years from now will be way behind. Unless of course they play it smart and be both a pro-gamer and finish education (ex. qxc). On January 16 2012 18:19 Diamond wrote:
[quote]
Every industry has a risk. Some people end up making it like HuK or Boxer, some people don't. However if people like HuK did not take said risks we would have no pros......... Yeah, difference is that in any given field (programming for examle) all you need to do is break top50% to start earning as much, if not more, than top 0.005% in gaming. Don't pretend that every pro gamer would otherwise be a Doctor, accountant, engineer etc.. I'm guessing most would either be working retail or something to do with IT. Which isn't exactly something where it matters that you get in there a few years late. I'll willing to bet that not a single pro gamer would have made more money this year than the top Sc2 players have done if they got a 'normal job' and certainly none would have made more than Mvp. Actually, with the amount and variety of skills required to break even $20k/y, I'm pretty sure they might as well be a doctor, accountant, engineer, etc. Not that hard. Difference between pro-gaming and real-life careers is that in real-life talented people earn shit-tons, but even when you're not talented and just put in decent hours into education/experience, you will be earning huge amounts. In pro-gaming it's literally all or nothing. TL;DR: 100% good salary vs 0.005% great salary. What you seem to be forgetting or just ignoring is that making the most money possible isn't the top priority for everyone. Some people (myself included) would be perfectly happy living on 20k a year doing something that they love. Kind of sad to me to see so many people caught up in making as much money as possible so that they can have "stuff" a fancy car that talks to them or some piece of jewelry that sparkles. Gotta have that 52" plasma cause it would just be impossible to enjoy life while watching a 32" tv. Or you know, hopes of supporting a family one day... Kinda hard to do on 20k/yr, not impossible though, but I imagine its kinda hard. Depends where you live. There's tons of kids in this thread who really don't know what the real world is like. Making 20k a year at 18-21 years old is extremely good in the UK and I imagine most of Europe nevermind how good it is in a country like Poland or Ukraine. Nevermind that while you earn 20k a year you're always only one good tournament a way from increasing that massively in only a weekend of play. Nor do any players live in the world of 1984 which a lot of people here seem to think where you're bound for life to the career you pick at 16. Pro gamers have their entire lives before them, nothing wrong at all in taking a few years out to get paid more than their friends for playing games and travelling the world. They're getting a great deal. question: is making 20k a year good in the uk because it is 20k pounds? or is making 20k $ a year good as well? Because I assume that the numbers that have been thrown around all have an (invisible) dollar sign behind them. It depends where you live. If you live in London then $20k is about minimum wage. $20k goes a lot further in anywhere other than London, especially in smaller citys. £20k is okay in London and not bad at all outside of London. Keep in mind that your standard graduate job in the UK starts at about £14-20k a year. Graduate of what? Even humanities major in the US make an average over $30k a year Source: http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/12/pf/college/salaries/index.htmAverage college grad in the US makes over $40k a year starting. Engineers as much as $70k+
Graduate job as in banks, insurance companys, marketing companys etc.. just take on graduates of any serious degree to different kind of office work.
If you graduate in a really specific field like Medicine, Law, Accountancy, Nursing etc.. it obviously has it's own pay scales.
The comparison doesn't really work so well for Europe to US because in the US the rich make a lot more and the poor make a lot less. There's a lot less wealth inequality in Europe.
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On January 16 2012 19:43 mockturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 19:31 Duravi wrote:
Ok here is a problem with the analogy between pro sports risks and esports risks. Many good highschool players get a SCHOLARSHIP to a good University, get a degree, and never go Pro. You cannot get a scholarship for esports. You completely postpone your education, and playing esports is of no benefit to it even if you wish to do both. The amount of players who go Pro straight out of highschool is incredibly small, and that is what you are comparing esports to. The risk in traditional sports is much much lower, and I would never advise any young person to put 100% effort into esports. you're kidding me. you mean the risks of planning your future in a sport where everyone in a league gets paid millions of dollars are less than in a new industry where someone is happy to be paid $750 a month in sponsorship? SERIOUSLY? you must be an actuary or something!
his point was that only the top few % make a good living in either industry. mine is that more than the top few % benefit from being involved in traditional sports. I had many friends who were given full or partial scholarships to their college due to athletics, none of which who went pro in anything.
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On January 16 2012 19:27 dafunk wrote:
Some people live their whole life playing piano in bars, being a forester, traveling around the world on a boat with their family.
Talking about money when talking about progaming just show how little you understand these guys you cheer for.
for real. if there was little/no money all these guys you would see on the tournament winners list would just be at the top of the ladder instead, doing the same thing for free
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Golden is a very talented player good luck to him.
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On January 16 2012 19:45 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 19:43 mockturtle wrote:On January 16 2012 19:31 Duravi wrote:
Ok here is a problem with the analogy between pro sports risks and esports risks. Many good highschool players get a SCHOLARSHIP to a good University, get a degree, and never go Pro. You cannot get a scholarship for esports. You completely postpone your education, and playing esports is of no benefit to it even if you wish to do both. The amount of players who go Pro straight out of highschool is incredibly small, and that is what you are comparing esports to. The risk in traditional sports is much much lower, and I would never advise any young person to put 100% effort into esports. you're kidding me. you mean the risks of planning your future in a sport where everyone in a league gets paid millions of dollars are less than in a new industry where someone is happy to be paid $750 a month in sponsorship? SERIOUSLY? you must be an actuary or something! his point was that only the top few % make a good living in either industry. mine is that more than the top few % benefit from being involved in traditional sports. I had many friends who were given full or partial scholarships to their college due to athletics, none of which who went pro in anything.
What world do you live in where everyone is earning $50,000 a year in their 20s?
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On January 16 2012 19:47 Seraphone wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 19:45 Duravi wrote:On January 16 2012 19:43 mockturtle wrote:On January 16 2012 19:31 Duravi wrote:
Ok here is a problem with the analogy between pro sports risks and esports risks. Many good highschool players get a SCHOLARSHIP to a good University, get a degree, and never go Pro. You cannot get a scholarship for esports. You completely postpone your education, and playing esports is of no benefit to it even if you wish to do both. The amount of players who go Pro straight out of highschool is incredibly small, and that is what you are comparing esports to. The risk in traditional sports is much much lower, and I would never advise any young person to put 100% effort into esports. you're kidding me. you mean the risks of planning your future in a sport where everyone in a league gets paid millions of dollars are less than in a new industry where someone is happy to be paid $750 a month in sponsorship? SERIOUSLY? you must be an actuary or something! his point was that only the top few % make a good living in either industry. mine is that more than the top few % benefit from being involved in traditional sports. I had many friends who were given full or partial scholarships to their college due to athletics, none of which who went pro in anything. What world do you live in where everyone is earning $50,000 a year in their 20s?
When did I say that? The CNN article I linked says the average US college grad last year is earning ~$41k a year. Dispute CNN, not me.
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On January 16 2012 19:47 mockturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 19:27 dafunk wrote:
Some people live their whole life playing piano in bars, being a forester, traveling around the world on a boat with their family.
Talking about money when talking about progaming just show how little you understand these guys you cheer for. for real. if there was little/no money all these guys you would see on the tournament winners list would just be at the top of the ladder instead, doing the same thing for free
You actually believe that? I'm pretty sure the scene overall would be alot smaller, lots of "pros" wouldn't play much, and the level of play would be alot worse. Take Idra as an example, from what i can remember he's said straight out that he plays for the cash.
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On January 16 2012 19:45 Duravi wrote:
his point was that only the top few % make a good living in either industry. mine is that more than the top few % benefit from being involved in traditional sports. I had many friends who were given full or partial scholarships to their college due to athletics, none of which who went pro in anything.
in that argument you're ignoring that in something as ridiculously competitive as american pro sports, you are in the top tiny % if you can actually get a scholarship -- and they got there because their parents spent thousands of dollars putting them in leagues and buying them equipment all throughout their childhood so they could spend hours every week practicing throughout high school and college to get that scholarship. that's a lot of financial investment and work for just a free ride through college that could have ended the second they slipped and blew out their knee.
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On January 16 2012 19:51 karpo wrote:
You actually believe that? I'm pretty sure the scene overall would be alot smaller, lots of "pros" wouldn't play much, and the level of play would be alot worse. Take Idra as an example, from what i can remember he's said straight out that he plays for the cash.
and you believe that coming from someone who left the country out of high school to sleep on a bunk bed and eat ramen noodles when he could have *never* expected the prosperity he'd see in sc2 years later?
yeah, the scene would be a little smaller, the pros would play less, and they would play worse. those things all respond to incentives. but there's a reason why when you liquipedia all the best players, foreign or korean, they have a competitive gaming history that precedes starcraft 2 . they weren't getting paid then and they couldn't have expected it.
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Good luck to Golden and Dragon.
OT: What hasn't really been mentioned in the progamer/education debate is that while progamers who later enter the workforce/higher education will be years behind their age cohort, progaming provides the opportunity to develop several marketable skills. Progamers can demonstrate their capacity for hard work and dedication through their practice schedule, or their interpersonal skills through streaming. They are professionals working under contracts, representing sponsors internationally, and working together in teams. While future careers may not be directly linked to eSports, a progaming career of even 1-2 years duration used well on a resume could give a new graduate a huge boost versus other graduates whose work experience stretches only as far as managing a fast food joint.
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On January 16 2012 19:57 mockturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 19:51 karpo wrote:
You actually believe that? I'm pretty sure the scene overall would be alot smaller, lots of "pros" wouldn't play much, and the level of play would be alot worse. Take Idra as an example, from what i can remember he's said straight out that he plays for the cash. and you believe that coming from someone who left the country out of high school to sleep on a bunk bed and eat ramen noodles when he could have *never* expected the prosperity he'd see in sc2 years later? yeah, the scene would be a little smaller, the pros would play less, and they would play worse. those things all respond to incentives. but there's a reason why when you liquipedia all the best players, foreign or korean, they have a competitive gaming history that precedes starcraft 2 . they weren't getting paid then and they couldn't have expected it.
I agree with your points, I think many of the esports personalities today just love the game so much they would try to do things today even if it paid much less or nothing, and take a job on the side to support themselves. People who are doing esports for money right now make no sense to me, especially those who live in the US.
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wow? 2 player left just like that? :O and both probably for foreign team just like Golden says! ;-O
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Couple of things i wanted to say:
What you make a year can be a ton or a little depending on where you live. The 20k sum/year was mentioned, let me give you my 2 cents. Where i live i'd be the richest kid on the block if i'd make that much as a 20 year old guy, and if i'd be ~30 years old i'd still be very happy to make that much at this point in time. Quitting college would be a very tempting choice, espcially how the educational system looks nowadays. Pretty much the same goes for anyone from Eastern-Central Europe or the Balkan or Russia.
On the other hand if i'd be from Norway middle class and making 20k a year at this age, it would be still decent but if u'd have to risk dropping out from college to do so, it's probably not worth it, since when u're 30+ you should be making a lot more there.
The minimum salary/year In the Eastern-Southern region of Europe i mentioned varies from ~1000$ to ~4000$ (not exact numbers), and there are people who have to live on less. Granted life is cheaper too, crucial thing like rent, clothing, groceries, cigars and alcohol are very very cheap compared to Western Europe. But imagine someone from Ukraine (strong starcraft nation) where the minimum salary is around 130 $, making 20k a year just from the salary, and to that adds stream-revenues, prize winnings and whatnot. It's life-changing money. If u upkeep that kind of income for 3-4 years u already have enough to make an investment, or just live decently and do w/e u want for several years.
Now, people were debating top salary players, here's my educated guess:
1. Slayers Boxer - biggest name in e-sports, some company had to pay a huge amount for him to switch and make a team and promote it the way he does (playing, coaching, managing, whatnot), i'm quite comfortable saying he has the largest salary
2. EG.Huk - The hottest foreigner at the time he was signed by the richest foreign team, after (presumably) a bidding war with Liquid`, most likely the 2nd wealthiest team, who signed Huk when he was doing very well comapred to NA scene (no pun intended)
3. EG.Idra The person who was on a korean progaming team, and is in the focus of attention whatever he does, i'm pretty sure EG signed him with a big salary when he was tearing shit up in the beta, then re-signed him with an even bigger. Again, i'm guessing, i could overevaluate this situation very easily
5. MVP Probably the best Korean, who already must have had a decent salary as a relatively successful bw-pro and kept winning a ton everywhere, i'd guess he's the most paid Korean on Korean team.
6. Sase- He was the player to look out for at the moment when quantic came out and signed him for a huge ammount, if rumours can be trusted, i actually was thinking putting him 3rd.
if i'd have to complete a top 10 i would add Puma, Nestea, Naniwa, Nada
Let me know what you think of my list, if anyone has any info, share it, i 'm really interested in players' salary
EDIT: Forgot MC, he probably has a huge salary too, most likely top 5
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They get payed to play games.... Of course they are not gonna be billionaires. (since this isn't a mainstream sport)
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Which team is going to fund Dragon's lower league trolling now????
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On January 16 2012 17:26 89andy wrote:
Now the question is who is in the so called GOD1 and GOD2 tiers haha. Less than 5 people combined in those two tiers I presume?
can you seriously not guess who god1 and 2 are? lol
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EPT
