EPTThe Philosophy of Design: Part 2 - Unit Design - Page 9
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Weird
United States832 Posts
| ||
|
Iatrik
Germany159 Posts
But you're way too zerg-bias. At least infestors don't have any attack and are T2 units, so there's some opportunity cost for utilizing them. If I'd have a faster moving and cloaked T2 HT that is able to stun units with my storm (with KA/ no need for upgrading storm/ and a bit less DPS) , that would just be game breaking. But hey, at least they don't have any attack, so there'd be some opportunity cost for utilizing them.  However, i have to disagree with the importance of detection a little bit. Detection itself isn't the problem , it's terran. They can just scan basicly everywhere, since getting an orbital isn't a option, you get it anyway. And players don't get any banelingmines against protoss, since they already expect an observer. | ||
|
ampson
United States2355 Posts
Forcefields are fine. Just because something is frustrating doesn't mean it is bad. If your army can't retreat, you need to have a more mobile army in the first place, of if not, fight with what you have left to at least do some damage. Forcefields can be negated by a great amount of things, just not many happen to be micro. Most are in positioning and strategy. Micro is not all that it should take to win a game. In fact, they add to the amount of micro done. Whether it is baiting them out, burrowing under them, lifting/dropping over/under them, or casting perfect FF's like MC, they are a critical part of any engagement where sentries are involved. I also disagree about tanks. They have their role in 2 out of 3 matchups, and are seen in almost every game of these matchups. They provide the most map control of any unit in the game, and that is very important. They don't need to be changed. | ||
|
Hakanfrog
Sweden690 Posts
Pheonixes are extremely microable and thors are units that imo shouldnt have to be microable since their sole purpose is to kill mutalisks. I hate how protoss is balanced around FFs though. | ||
|
tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On January 12 2012 05:22 di3alot wrote: meh nah i disagree. you can not micro when the ffs are casted. -----Forcefields cannot be used anywhere, if you got caught in a choke it's because you've ceded map control or something else has allowed ff to be more effective than it really is... especially early game where there aren't that many sentries around and they haven't built energy what exactly should i do when my ramp is blocked? -- you've already allowed either drop penetration in the main which is solved by OL position or you had inadequate defenses at your natural and lost to a timing push, solved by better scouting, army positioning, map presence, etc. yeah sure i could have prevented that but thats not the point -----arguably, it is the point... if you lose to 4gate you could have solved it by prevention, that's the point, same with DT rush, etc. the point is what is my response to that i dont have one."zerg" ----- same thing, do you respond to DT rush or do you prepare against it? Why is ff any different? and to talk about what is worse is kind of stupid. both ability are bad. but to defend my point that forcefileds are worse. you can spread your army that less units are hit by that. ----- yeah, flanking is extremely effective vs sentry compositions, you force them to control waaaay more surface areas than single chokes but when you do then against ffs the toss says thx for the gift. not to mention that almost every map has 100choke points. -----TDA? about the colossus. dude wtf have you even read the OP? ----- colossus micro is required, play in masters. It's fun to oversimplify things when complaining or when raging but not when you're actually discussing unit roles and uses. and by right clicking them back when there is no air unit and some 4/5/6 range units try to kill them is micro for you? -----sounds like someone didn't scout, u need the air unit rly? and whats the counter to losing your nexus/hatch? ----- VRs or scout+cannons solve roach busts, his whole point about roaches is basically a complaint against roaches being a staple in all matchups, and that's why I said he's wrong. Roach CAN be a staple, but so can Muta ling, which is extremely effective in PvZ and TvZ. If he's complaining about ZvZ, it's baseless; roaches need to have places where they're useful, why complain about it when they are? In general there's no basis for his roach bias other than he simply doesn't like them. Ask any pro, "do you need to micro roaches." If you get a serious answer, it will be a "yes, no shit." and you've clearly never played phoenix vs muta at a high level. ----- You are incorrect. When phoenix are out you spend a lot of time watching them, if its phoenix vs muta you basically cannot take your eyes off of phoenix for more than a few seconds. I play high masters, that's more than high enough to know that the ceiling for phoenix micro is far beyond what I play at. I added comments in the above ^ | ||
|
Gorlin
United States2753 Posts
As for banelings, more and more zerg players are beginning to utilize burrow effectively. I don't really disagree with your general idea here about how lurkers led to more interesting interactions, but to me, your argument was not very effective. I found it especially humorous that in your little Savior's lurker clip, you proclaim "Banelings just can't do that" despite it being the exact situation where a baneling would be effective, as the terran clumped up all of his bio on the burrowed zerg unit (clumped in a BALL as well which you suggested in your previous article was not a problem in Broodwar). As far as static defense goes, SC2 cannons are of comparable strength to BW cannons, bunkers are much stronger than they used to be with the increased effectiveness of repair, and I'd say missile turrets are stronger in SC2 as well. I guess sunkens were stronger than spines, but spines obviously have the bonus that they can uproot and move if need be, as well as having the ability to be transfused by queens. Obviously there is more to static defense than the sheer strength of the building, and maybe I severely misunderstood your argument, but that section was not very thought out in my opinion. Although I think you brought up a lot of great points (all of which have been brought up many times, though perhaps articulated less effectively) and had a solid overarching idea, the (what I considered) major flaws really detracted from the persuasiveness of your argument and made it come off as just another post whining about Starcraft 2. Thanks for taking the time to write it though, I hope you respond and possibly clarify these mistakes. Also, I did not read most of the comments, so sorry if other people have said similar things. edit: "TvZ and TvT definitely are the best matchups to watch and play in SC2. That's because there's strong elements of map control in both matchups. Defender's advantage keeps both sides from just killing each other, and so you actually get multiple and complex engagements." You yourself made this claim in the previous thread, why would you use such stupid language like "No Zone Control Units" and "There is almost no way to hold ground in this game" and go on a rant about how useless siege tanks are when you contradicted yourself in a different comment. After reading this a second time, the OP's post is just so... wrong. | ||
|
6d.Leek
United States76 Posts
SC2 as you've described is very precarious at this point. There was such a huge focus on creating units to counter other units in early patches, but what can they actually DO? The title made me expectant of greater things--perhaps discussion about what balance should be like, what game designers should be trying to do as opposed to exclusively talking about SC2's flaws in an extremely generalized manner. | ||
|
Castles
Canada77 Posts
in my own opinion ive always thought sc2 was a very poorly designed game, but it looks like hots has a strong chance at changing that, or at least we can hope. great write up | ||
|
DYEAlabaster
Canada1009 Posts
| ||
|
Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On January 12 2012 06:07 Hakanfrog wrote: Pheonixes and thors? Pheonixes are extremely microable and thors are units that imo shouldnt have to be microable since their sole purpose is to kill mutalisks. I hate how protoss is balanced around FFs though. Phoenixes are not microable, they micro themselves. -_- They would be microable if they didn't have auto shoot. | ||
|
oFFoy
Lithuania33 Posts
| ||
|
Ulfsark
United States958 Posts
| ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On January 12 2012 06:46 Talin wrote: Phoenixes are not microable, they micro themselves. -_- They would be microable if they didn't have auto shoot. This is when we get into the Semantics of what "micro" means, which is a dumb argument. But many BW elitest will say that SC2 players do not know what micro means and units in SC2 require almost no micro. Its an easy argument, because it cannot be countered or argued against, since they define what micro means in the context of the argument. | ||
|
Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
| ||
|
snively
United States1159 Posts
On January 12 2012 07:06 Ulfsark wrote: Dude reading this made me depressed and made me wonder why I spend so much time playing haha. damn. lol just because SC2 doesn't have the same mechanics as BW doesn't mean it's a bad game. They're just different. SC2 is still a ridiculously fun game, and so is BW. | ||
|
aderum
Sweden1459 Posts
On January 12 2012 06:46 Talin wrote: Phoenixes are not microable, they micro themselves. -_- They would be microable if they didn't have auto shoot. Hmm are you really trying to say that Phoenixes is not microable? You dont think a master make them more worth than a platinum player? You dont think MC make them more worth then Axslav(or any lower tier protoss). What in the holy hell am i reading. | ||
|
ForeverSleep
Canada920 Posts
On January 12 2012 06:46 Talin wrote: Phoenixes are not microable, they micro themselves. -_- They would be microable if they didn't have auto shoot. so, if I understand well, pressing A instead of right-clicking is micro? Because I do not get your point right now... | ||
|
DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
Forcefield is a really interesting mechanic on paper. I have to credit Blizzard for making it fit into a game at all. However, the way they implemented it in beta was absolutely game-breaking. Many of you remember the days before massive units crushed forcefields. Many of you remember the days when you could trap units literally inside forcefields so they were unable to do anything. Forcefield was so destructive to the game that Blizzard had to patch in fixes for it. However, part of me thinks that they were only buckling to community complaints and didn't realize exactly what fundamental flaws forcefield had which caused it to be a source for complaint in the first place. Forcefields cannot be interacted with by the opposing player. All you can do is try to avoid them and bait them as best you can, and hope to drain sentry energy through EMP if you're terran. It comes down to, “does he hit good forcefields or not?” There is no dance between the players, where forcefields come down and the opponent micros against them. I've seen (and been in) many games where a forcefield on the ramp literally ends the game, because there is literally nothing the other player can do about it. Force stuck outside your main? Well, you lost the game. There is no dance between players? What the hell game are playing? ZvP is basically defined by how well a zerg can deal with forcefields. Learning how to avoid forcefields and avoiding bad situations with forcefields is how you play the damn game. That's micro, positioning, and skill. Dealing with Forcefields is one of the things that blatantly raises the skill ceiling very high in Starcraft 2, and this is why people whine about it. Dealing with Forcefields is hard. That's what makes the game fun and interesting: the fact that you can get better at it. If you notice, good zergs actually know how to deal with forcefields. The same is true for fungal growth. Good players actually know how to deal with it. It's HARD to deal with. If you get caught badly out of position, you can lose, just like forcefield. Good players are the ones that know how to avoid getting into those situations. Look at Mutalisk vs Infestor micro! This is raising the skill ceiling! This is adding more depth to the game! You're complaining about things that are making the game difficult, but it's supposed to be difficult! This is exactly the unit design we WANT for starcraft 2! Whenever these discussions come up, people NEVER mention zergling surrounds, which is outright ridiculous. If zerg surrounds your units, you lose. You cannot micro. You cannot do anything. No one complains about this. The answer is "Well don't get into that position in the first place." It's good design. It means people have to be aware of getting surrounded. Yet apparently for these other abilities, it is bad design. And finally: Phoenixes? Muta v Phoenix is actually pretty micro intensive. If the Protoss does it right, he can completely destroy a much larger group of mutas. It's hard to do. That's a GOOD THING! | ||
|
tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On January 12 2012 08:29 DoubleReed wrote: The OP is stupid, foolish, and doesn't know what he's talking about. There is no dance between players? What the hell game are playing? ZvP is basically defined by how well a zerg can deal with forcefields. Learning how to avoid forcefields and avoiding bad situations with forcefields is how you play the damn game. That's micro, positioning, and skill. Dealing with Forcefields is one of the things that blatantly raises the skill ceiling very high in Starcraft 2, and this is why people whine about it. Dealing with Forcefields is hard. That's what makes the game fun and interesting: the fact that you can get better at it. If you notice, good zergs actually know how to deal with forcefields. The same is true for fungal growth. Good players actually know how to deal with it. It's HARD to deal with. If you get caught badly out of position, you can lose, just like forcefield. Good players are the ones that know how to avoid getting into those situations. Look at Mutalisk vs Infestor micro! This is raising the skill ceiling! This is adding more depth to the game! You're complaining about things that are making the game difficult, but it's supposed to be difficult! This is exactly the unit design we WANT for starcraft 2! And finally: Phoenixes? Muta v Phoenix is actually pretty micro intensive. If the Protoss does it right, he can completely destroy a much larger group of mutas. It's hard to do. That's a GOOD THING! Totally true, I think all that can be learned from this post is simply that the OP likes BW better than SC2. He is unable to enjoy SC2 because he can't help but compare the two whenever he is playing the other, which certainly has nothing to do with mechanics or unit design in SC2. | ||
|
Longshank
1648 Posts
| ||
| ||
