The Philosophy of Design: Part 2 - Unit Design - Page 11
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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serge
Russian Federation142 Posts
I think BW wins for more competitive game, better spectator game, better overall game, but worse for silvers and such. --- These threads keep popping up and show dissatisfaction on the TL forums with the way Blizzard designed this game. I remember long ago that colossus, roaches and corrupters won the polls for worst designed units ever. The art/failed unit concept dictated the resulting unit; It's really disheartening for a true fan to see that blizzard isn't thinking of cutting the units in HotS. | ||
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Falling
Canada11369 Posts
Rather given that SC2 has 2 upcoming sequels, we are going to have some massive change, so what sort of changes would be good? What sort of things would increase the skill level? And when we're thinking of improvements, the easiest thing to do is to pull examples from similar sorts of games and how they've done certain elements better. You can argue which game as a whole is better, but can anyone declare that SC2 has nothing to learn from any game ever? Or do you propose describing these concepts using no examples. If SC2 has at the very least something to learn from other games, then the question is which one? Its contemporaries? SupCom2? Bad idea, in my opinion as they've automated absolutely everything decreasing the skill level in the hunt for this supposed 'less useless clicking so I have more time to think up strategies' idea. DoW? Maybe, but the cover mechanics and the like don't really fit well. Battle for Middle Earth II and it's painfully slow troop movement that is utterly unmicroable? C&C4's utter fail? I'm sure there are things to be learned from each of these, but all of them have pushed into different directions which makes there lessons a lot less relevant. We could look further back at Age of Mythology, where there are spells... automated with no ability to control. But I suppose you could argue that frees you up to do even more micro tricks... such as? um, dunno. Better spell casting IS what that free apm is supposed be for. BW is probably the most relevant example as it is the direct ancestor and has (emphasis on present tense) the most success in pro-level playing and longevity. Forget about which one is better. We're not going to agree. Consider, SC2 is great, but we have some expansions coming up. Can it be better? If so, are there some useful lessons to be learned? I don't want another BW, I am playing that already. But I do want SC2 to be the best it can be. | ||
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BronzeLeague
United States17 Posts
Baneling landmines completely changed the way map control worked in TvZ because suddenly one wrong move cost an overaggressive Terran his entire army. For like 2 months after that tactic became popular you would see terrans use 2-3 scans while crossing the map and take care to position their armies away from routes that were too intuitive. Now baneling landmines are a consistant part of zerg play. You need only look at leenock's most recent group games to see the utility of baneling landmines when controlled properly. Not only are landmines amazing, but I remember when marine king prime showed me that well microed marines could actually come out well in a trade with banelings. It was amazing to watch him doing something with terran units that I had never thought was possible. Siege tanks are the central piece in TvZ and TvT. They are quite literally one of the most instrumental units in the game and control the flow of both of those match ups. You seem to be saying that they aren't powerful enough because they take too much micro to position well. (when you talk about how long it takes to go into siege mode and how easily air units kill a unit that cant kill air) All of these things that you worry about destroying your siege tanks are countered by meticulous control by the terran and clever positioning and (gasp) abuse of high ground for vision. It is also very dificult to focus fire banelings with tanks while kiting zerglings. If you want to see what it looks like when a terran is really getting the best out of his units watch Fin vs leenock (or MVP doing anything at all). Fin did huge damage with an army that was arguably weaker than leenocks because he had great control and daring micro. Now lets talk about the sentry. The sentry is, in my mind, a unit that can really showcase the skills of the pros compared to us schmoes. Forcefields are so versatile and timing dependant that there is almost no ceiling to how good they can be. There is no hard and fast rule dictating when and where you should cast your forcefields and they are a very limited resource, so it gives pro players a ton of room do demonstrate their skill and decision making. If you have ever watched protoss play, you will see that there is a huge variety in how pro's cast forcefields dependant on what they think is the best use for them at the moment. This is one of the skills that differentiates really top tier protoss from the average pro. About your problem with armies being able to disengage, this may be more of stylistic choice, but i disagree that someone who makes a mistake should be able to get away with it scott free. I think that they should be punished for playing poorly. If you charge a protoss and you are so vastly outnumbered that he has the option to use his forcefields to do anything but survive, then you have made a huge mistake and do not deserve to get away. Likewise with marauders. If you make a micro mistake and engage a terran that you do not want to engage, you should pay for that mistake. Concussive shells allow terran to pick off a few units without being able to instantly kill your army. Fungal growth is slightly different. It is not really an ability that prevents your escape, because if you think about it, regardless of what you do the entire zerg army is more mobile than you in almost every situation. There not very many times that a zerg who has just won a battle will not be able to outrun you as you retreat, so the use of fungal is clearly not to hold an army in place as it tries to escape. Instead fungals design shows that it is meant to be used in the heat of battle once zerg has backed an army into a corner. It lets zerg trade cost efficiently with a cornered army that is likely much stronger than it is. So seen in this light, fungal is necessary for zerg to be able to corner an opponent, but not useful for chasing down an army. Pro play supports this because I cannot recall the last game that I saw fungals saved to trap an army in retreat. If a zerg has fungals he uses them immediately because they are critical to a favorable outcome. I suspect that you have never microed pheonix, because I find it hard to believe that you think that they require no control. Pheonix are some of the most micro intensive things that protoss can build. A group of pheonix cannot just go kill a group of mutas of equal size, because while the pheonix win if the zerg decides not to micro, clever zergs frequently will turn when the mutas attack cooldown is up and try to take advantage of the protoss player not being able to react quickly enough to pick off the pheonixes chasing them. The trade between two microning players is by no means as straightforward as you suggest. In addition the gravition is a brilliantly balanced ability that gives pheonix a ton of utility while forcing the player using pheonix to make important decisions about how to use them. Trying to lift things with pheonix is inherently risky and the pheonix is the cause of a ton of brilliant micro on the parts of both protoss and zerg. (I havent seen pheonix vs terran, but perhaps is mech comes into vogue like artosis keeps claiming then we will see some great pvt pheonixes.) With regards to AOE, it is very powerful, but perhaps that is a good thing. Like the thor, storms are both very powerful and comparatively immobile, but maybe that is a good thing. It forces the player not using the aoe to showcase his controll by dodging a potentially game ending blow. Maybe sometimes we need strong immobile things for a speedy and daring micro player to barely dodge. Just think about how tense you get watching lings and banelings micro against each other. Don't you get some of that same tension every time a pack of mutas gets near a thor or a templar is storming near a zerg army? But what about microless units? As it turns out, those dont exist. Increasingly we are seeing pros utilize tiny things like keeping their army spread to do more initial damage and running around with increasingly small groups of units. In the beta, things like Bit by Bit's all ins may have been popular, where you just smash a and try to kill your opponent, but as the game is becoming more understood you will see things like blink stalkers widely separated from the army, or a small group of 5 zealots going to harrass an expand while the army pokes at the front. Zergs are exhibiting better and better ling/roach/muta control. and profiting from every single thing that terran and protoss forget to micro. Terran players have always been all over the place with drops, but their ability to control the bioball has improved by leaps and bounds and clever drop play has won many people games. Not only that, but as players are getting better and better smaller advantages matter more. All pros now micro even the smallest of armies to their full potential and this is making the game consistently more interesting to watch. Players who are strong in early micro and can manage to take out a few extra units in the early game have a noticeable food advantage going into the mid/late game. Finally the discussion of "microless units" brings me to the discussion of how units move in SC2. Rather than complaining that splitting an army in SC2 is "too difficult," maybe you could look at it the way you look at the ability to only select 12 units in brood war. Because AOE is so powerful, splitting your army and preventing it from clumping becomes critical as you become a better player, but is not necessarily going to matter in a lower game. The feeling of fighting the AI is still there, but it is no longer a deterrant to new players. Thus this movement style is still a way to differentiate pros who have incredible technical skill from the rest of us, but this mechanic doesnt remove the fun from people just learning the game. I remember when I tried to play SC1 and the frankly clunky and outdated UI/AI turned me off from the game. Selecting only a few units at a time may be a technical hurdle that only the very good players can overcome, but it adds nothing to the satisfaction of playing. It is a mechanic that can only frustrate and provides no reward to the person actually playing the game. It may make for a better spectacle, as we watch pros who have mastered this difficult method of control play against each other, but to me, it added nothing to the game. I look forward to seeing pros get better and better at managing their armies during engagements, because believe me, there is still room to improve. (ex. I think it is possible that zergs will start to spread their brood lords to avoid the archon toilet. This would take a talented player to micro it, but potentially the rewards are huge.) I guess what I'm saying is that in general I disagree with you and think that you have not actually thought through the game mechanics you are criticizing. Im not saying that starcraft 2 is a perfect game (im looking at you hydralisk), but I think it is better designed than you give it credit for. I look forward to the host of new strategies that the tweaks and changes in the upcoming years will bring. | ||
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ArchDC
Malaysia1996 Posts
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squeek
United States15 Posts
Unfortunately, it might be too abstract a concept and will likely be misinterpreted as complaining about balance (game design and game balance seem difficult to separate for a lot of people). | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On January 12 2012 12:31 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: There's no problem in saying "we" here. The problem is that you do not seem to consider that perhaps there are people who think SC2 is a better game. Though you seem to say "maybe you and some others are an exception" So basically you completely contradicted yourself, and really don't have a point. That's problematic too because a lot of those people you are talking about haven't really experienced both. Blind faith isn't necessarily healthy either. As I mentioned earlier, it comes down to looking at basic principles of RTS. What do you enjoy about SC2? What don't you enjoy? Etc. | ||
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deadmau
960 Posts
On January 12 2012 12:55 Falling wrote: I don't really get how people think the OP is a balance whine or a BW vs SC2 whine. It doesn't even talk about balance and it's focus is not particularly about why everyone should watch BW instead. As pro's like LiquidTyler have reiterated the same sentiment, just new generation of SC2 only players that never understood or played BW at a high level misinterpreting and blindly defending SC2, when all people really want is an improved an SC2 that borrows a few key aspects that made BW great, and no, not added "artificially hard mechanics" like 12-limit cap that these SC2-only players continually rant about. No one wants that, they just want the KEY ASPECTS that can make SC2 better, that made BW dynamic and great to watch. Not that SC2 doesn't have perks or pros, it makes some valiant strides forward, but it's missing some key things. | ||
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Humanfails
224 Posts
On January 11 2012 03:09 EternaLLegacy wrote: Part 2: Unit Design ![]() While my mechanics article suggested that this part would be about macro-mechanics, due to the direction discussion seems to have been leaning, I have decided to address what seems to be the biggest source of controversy in this part: unit design. I will talk about macro-mechanics in the next part. See Part 1: Mechanics Here I think it's important to talk about unit design from a more abstract perspective before delving into the Starcraft franchise. For the purposes of this discussion, units will be defined as any object under player control which can interact with objects under another player's control. This eliminates interface elements, static map elements, and resources. A unit's purpose is to provide a conduit through which a player can channel his intentions. The skill at which a player executes these intentions reflects mechanical skill. The goals the player chooses reflect strategic skill. As such, units are a direct reflection of the skill of the player, and form a window into his mind. This is important for spectators and opponents alike to make the emotional connection to the player. This is an essential part of any sport or competition – the 'human element' as it were. So, when we talk about unit design, I think it's important to think about units as conduits for the players. A unit has dimensions of interaction – that is – ways which it can interact. Let me provide a simple example to illustrate this idea: Take the game pong. There is only one unit each player controls, which is the paddle. The ball and playing field are analogous to the map in Starcraft. There are only 2 dimensions of interaction which the units can move. First, is the position of the unit. Each player can choose where to place the paddle at any given time. Second, is the velocity of the paddle. Each player can decide how fast and in which direction he wants to hit the ball. ![]() Clash of the pong titans. Now, lets remove one of these dimensions of interaction. Lets take away the velocity component to the paddle. You can now only move the paddle at a fixed rate. We can see that this will greatly affect what you can do in terms of angles imparted on the ball, and therefore the amount of unique game states which can exist. In effect, we have reduced the number of conduits between players, because now they have only one conduit, or dimension of interaction, which they are connected through, the position of the paddles. We can see the same thing happen in chess, if we remove all pieces but pawns. The game becomes a lot less interesting, and while it is still a game of skill, there aren't nearly enough ways to outclass your opponent, and so the game becomes very stale. Any chess players probably have played the 8 pawn game and know it is completely deterministic and solvable, and therefore quite boring. This example illustrates exactly why we like to have multiple different units. Each unit offers a new dimension of interaction in chess, or sometimes even more than one (think: castling). The complexity of interaction is what allows for an interesting game, since there are many conduits connecting the players, and therefore many places where they can outsmart and outplay each other. ![]() What the heck is going on? This is too complicated I'm playing pong. However, more units does not necessarily mean more conduits. Imagine replacing the queen's rook with a new piece – the juggernaut. The juggernaut can move through any number of pieces, capturing them all if they are enemy pieces. Would this piece increase or decrease the number of conduits available to the players? At first glance, it sounds pretty cool. I mean, think of all the cool play you can make with this piece? However, it turns out that there is no situation where this piece can be properly used, because white would instantly be able to capture black's juggernaut at the start of the game. In fact, it doesn't matter what piece you replace with the juggernaut, because that always will happen. The juggernaut destroys the game of chess, instead of making it more complex and interesting. ![]() I literally cried laughing at this picture. There are a lot of games that are full of juggernauts. I think command and conquer is notorious for having juggernauts galore in their games. I distinctly remember trying desperately to play C&C: Tiberian Sun like a competitive game a while back. As it turns out, it's really a race to see who can get multi-missiles first and blow up the command center of the other player with a perfectly placed shot. The game is pretty fun if you just play through the single-player and don't take it seriously, but there is some clearly atrocious unit design. Unfortunately, I think that unit design in Starcraft 2 suffers a bit from this syndrome as well. So, we've established how units provide dimensions of interaction between players, and how good units add dimensions, which bad units destroy them. I think now we have a good framework with which to look at the units of Starcraft 2. While I could go over every single unit, every building, and every spell, I think that the biggest problems would be lost among the sea of information, and so I will try to focus on what I think are the biggest culprits, and the biggest general design flaws. A) Micro-reducing abilities I think this is the single most frustrating aspect to unit design in Starcraft 2. We've all experienced it. You set up for a big battle. You engage, and spells get thrown down everywhere. Things aren't looking so good though, and you sound the drums of retreat. Oh, but what's this? Your entire army is immobile. I guess you might as well eat popcorn and watch the spectacle of explosions and gore that once was your army. It's just so absolutely frustrating to know that you can literally do nothing. Looking at my framework above, we can see that this scenario occurs when the juggernaut shows up and destroys all other dimensions of interaction. So, what's the juggernaut in this scenario? 1) Sentries and Forcefield: ![]() Forcefield is a really interesting mechanic on paper. I have to credit Blizzard for making it fit into a game at all. However, the way they implemented it in beta was absolutely game-breaking. Many of you remember the days before massive units crushed forcefields. Many of you remember the days when you could trap units literally inside forcefields so they were unable to do anything. Forcefield was so destructive to the game that Blizzard had to patch in fixes for it. However, part of me thinks that they were only buckling to community complaints and didn't realize exactly what fundamental flaws forcefield had which caused it to be a source for complaint in the first place. Forcefields cannot be interacted with by the opposing player. All you can do is try to avoid them and bait them as best you can, and hope to drain sentry energy through EMP if you're terran. It comes down to, “does he hit good forcefields or not?” There is no dance between the players, where forcefields come down and the opponent micros against them. I've seen (and been in) many games where a forcefield on the ramp literally ends the game, because there is literally nothing the other player can do about it. Force stuck outside your main? Well, you lost the game. ![]() Umad zerg? So what would be appropriate fixes for forcefields? Obviously we don't want them to be useless, especially early on, because protoss HAS to have them to survive some pressure attacks and allins. One suggestion I remember from beta was giving them finite hp, but no target priority (and perhaps giving them high armor would be good too to make them stronger earlier rather than later). I personally like this idea a lot since it forces micro from the other player, but does not auto-win a fight for the casting player. I'm sure there are other options out there as well. 2) Fungal Growth: ![]() Fungal ALL THE THINGS! Fungal Growth seems to be the favorite of zergs these days, and with good reason. It's pretty much the only spell zerg has that has any meaningful impact on the game (aside from queen macro abilities). It also is a safe spell, because if used properly it automatically ensures that the opponent can do nothing about it. Fungal's damage component alone is very strong, but the stun is absolutely game-breaking. If zerg ever is winning a fight with infestors in his army, the opponent cannot run. There's literally nothing they can do. I consider it to be pretty much a weaker version of forcefield in terms of micro-reducing power. At least infestors don't have any attack and are T2 units, so there's some opportunity cost for utilizing them. 3) Concussive Shells: ![]() At least they don't come standard on marauders now... Concussive shells are not as dramatically micro-reducing as the two previous abilities. However, they do basically ensure that no army can ever disengage without heavy losses, without the use of some other ability, like blink or forcefield. The one redeeming quality for concussive shells is that it requires active scootnshoot micro from the terran. The reliance on APM-heavy micro does create a significant speed/skill barrier that seems to be a large factor in the skill difference between foreign and Korean terrans. It takes a lot of speed to take full advantage of this ability. I think this is a bit of a lesser evil probably because the game has been so heavily balanced around it now, but from a design perspective, it's rather atrocious. B) Micro-less units: These guys are part of the reason people whine about the game taking “no skill” or being “too easy.” I'm certainly one to blame at times. But is the complaint legitimate? Looking at the framework, these are units who have only one-dimension of interaction, which is that they exist. Nobody talks about using these units “smarter” or with a different “micro style”. They become a macro-level strategic tool, used to inflict blunt-force trauma on your opponent. 1) The Colossus: ![]() "But Day[9], what if he a-moves?!?!" I remember seeing the introduction to the colossus by Blizzard, and how they thought of him as a cliff-striding raider, who's mobility was the central feature to the unit. I don't think I've seen anyone even make use of the cliff-striding power of the colossus in months. It's just a big aoe-damage dealing sledgehammer you throw into your ball of doom. If you look at why this occurs, it's possible to find a few distinct design considerations that contribute: The colossus is a unit that is extremely expensive. This automatically makes it a unit that is a huge risk early on. As such, it rarely appears in a stage of the game where it is the most powerful as a singular unit. The colossus is fairly fragile for its cost. While 350 total hp sounds really beefy, it is armored and damage output of units in Starcraft 2 is simply higher than its predecessor. To compare, that's 10 zerglings of hp, and 10 zerglings costs only 250 minerals. For the price, the colossus is very easily killed. The colossus cannot fight air units at all, but is vulnerable to anti-air. So what does this mean? Well, the colossus is strongest when it is protected, surrounded by anti-air, and gotten when the cost is not so dramatic that if it dies it's automatic GG. So, you see the midgame mass colossus play. Now there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but we have to look at the actual strength of the unit: Siege range, making static defense worthless and punishing any units that come close. AOE, negating large masses of weaker units Speed, able to keep up with any other protoss unit This means that the colossus fits a role that no other protoss unit but the carrier does (siege range), has a powerful aoe which is shared by only 2 units (archon/storm on HT), and fits into any protoss army. Contrast that with the carrier, which is stupidly expensive, single target, and slow. Contrast again with high templar, which are slow, have no attack, limited damage output, and no siege capability. Archons are the only unit that seems to compete with colossi, but the lack of range plus a lack of power vs mechanical units makes them still not quite as desirable. The colossus simply does everything other protoss units are designed to do, but better, and with fewer drawbacks. As such, the colossus does not need careful attention to make sure it is maximizing its role. The only thing you have to do is keep it alive, and it kills everything with glee. As such, the burden does not rest on the protoss player to use the colossus well, but the opposing player to counter them well. The colossus does not become a conduit for interaction between players, because the interaction around the unit is very one-sided, where the protoss simply makes them and his opponent has to react to the units' very existence. As such, either colossus work or they don't. There's no battle where you go, “man, that guy had such great colossus control. If he played worse there he'd have lost it.” And of course, colossi can actually lose their attack if they cancel their animation too fast, even though the graphic will play. This means that you're just better off attack-moving and leaving the things alone, cause micro might make them perform worse. 2) The Roach: ![]() What's the counter to roach? More roach. When the concept for the roach was revealed in alpha, I was very excited. The unit seemed to be the epitome of interesting design. For those of you who didn't know, the roach regenerated hp at an extremely high rate, and as such had very strong attrition power, and was very strong vs non-concentrated fire. Fighting roach required active micro from the opponent to focus down individual roaches, and keeping your roach alive as long as possible and abusing the high regeneration rate to rotate hurt roaches back was especially rewarding. Badly micro'd roach, or badly micro'd units vs roach were both vastly inferior to well micro'd units. This is exactly what makes units interesting. Then when beta rolled around the roach became just a high hp ranged unit that seemed to require no micro to use. There was no active regeneration until hive tech. It was just a really lackluster unit. Since that time, the active regeneration upgrade simply disappeared, and the burrow and burrow-move mechanics turned out to be insignificant and gimmicky. I'm personally incredibly disappointed in this unit, because Blizzard literally took a great idea and destroyed it. The roach suffers from a lot of the same issues the colossus does: -Roach outperform hydralisks as a ranged attacker in almost every circumstance, since they are faster, have nearly double the hp, and cost significantly less. -Roach are the only zerg unit before ultralisks that can take any sort of AOE punishment at all. As such, roach supplant a lot of the zerg army in many circumstances (ZvZ and ZvP especially). We really don't see anything in terms of a balanced force between lings, blings, hydra, and roach with infestor and air support. Instead we just see a lot of roach + support. Now, I am not saying that people only use roach. However, when they DO use roach, they don't just add a few roach to another army. The roach is not a unit that adds any new dimension to an army, it simply supplants already existing units, in the sense that any role the roach is filling in an army can also be filled by another unit that zerg has, but likely worse. 3) The Thor: This unit just screams “DONT MICRO ME.” It's slow, with slow responsiveness, clunky attack animations, and really poor targeting. There's only one thing you can do with thors which is focus or cannon really large targets. There is no move/shoot with something that clunky and slow. There's no repositioning such a unit in battle. It seems like even Blizzard is so disgusted with how horribly this unit turned out that they're scrapping it for HotS, and as such I don't want to dwell on it further. 4) The Phoenix: Those of you in beta should remember when this unit was given its wonderful shoot-while-moving ability. We all desperately wanted something micro-able, and what does Blizzard do? They introduce one of the goofiest mechanics in Starcraft 2. I'm perfectly okay with the unit itself, and I think graviton lift is a very interesting ability, but the implementation of move-shoot is just so embarrassingly silly and anti-micro that it deserves a mention here. Move-shoot does not mean a unit that automatically shoots while you move it around. That removes the entire decision making process of what do I shoot at?/when do I act to shoot? It's just a bad mechanic. C) No Zone Control Units ![]() Not that type of zone. Lastly, we come to the most glaring weakness in Starcraft 2. There is almost no way to hold ground in this game. There are several contributing mechanics that exacerbate this problem (warpgates, no high ground defender's advantage), but the overwhelming ailment is the complete and utter disregard for positional units that Blizzard seems to have adopted for this game. But why is this such a weakness, according to our framework? Well, the complexity of interaction between units that exist not to kill other units but to control terrain is far greater than units which exist only to blow things up. Simply, the army-level interaction between move-shoot-kill units is very one dimensional. Units smash into each other and the better force wins. However, area control units are much more interesting, because they turn army interaction into a territory control battle. The goal of territory control units is to cut off important routes and gain more map control. Map control allows other aspects of the game to take over: Macro, harassment, and scouting. More map control yields more bases open for the taking, more routes by which you can harass, and more vision of the map to combat enemy army movements, expansions, and harassment. When armies exist not to kill each other, but to control terrain, the game shifts more towards those three elements, and less away from “who has the better army?” and big deathball fights. Big deathball fights are one-dimensional army-level interaction, whereas map control is multidimensional. 1) Siege Tanks ![]() Too bad I made immortals. What happened to these guys? It seems like literally every other unit in the game is designed to counter them. We have dragoons with blink, charging zealots, dragoons with some kind of tankrape cannon that evaporates them like it's their job (oh wait it is), marauders, voidrays, phoenix that can lift them up even when sieged (even though I swear they are clamped to the ground), broodlords which cause them to splash each other, and more. Tanks are just far more of the glass cannon role than they used to be, and because armies are so much faster and higher dps, the window for getting in position and sieging up is extremely small. This makes them just too much of a liability in many cases, especially vs protoss. The designers simply created too many ways to kill tanks for tanks to hold positions by themselves. 2) Banelings, Burrow, and Detection. Baneling mines are some of the most enjoyable things to do in Starcraft 2. They can be incredibly cost effective vs marines, and are one of the few map control devices that exist. However, they are gimmicky, since a flub leads to them doing nothing, and they cannot be reused, and as such they don't provide true permanent map control. This brings me to the use of burrow and the unimportance of detection. In Broodwar, the infamous lurker was the powerhouse map control unit for zerg. While many players miss the lurker, I do not suggest bringing the lurker back into Starcraft 2, at least directly. Rather, I think the lurker brought certain key aspects to bear that made it such a phenomenal unit. The lurker was a purely micro centric unit. It was 100% worthless burrowed in the wrong place, and superbly powerful in the right one. This dichotomy based on position is one of the most essential components of map control-oriented gameplay. The lurker also forced detection, something only the DT and banshee adequately now, leaving zerg in the dust. Burrow banes, burrowed roach, and infestors simply do not force detection, because they are not active threats while burrowed. The burrow/detection interaction provides a new conduit through which players can interact. Players were scared to move out once lurkers were on the field without great scouting and ready detection, because they could lose their entire army. Even if you move out vs burrow banelings, it's virtually impossible to lose your entire army, because the banes can only kill so many units. Banelings just can't do that. What zerg needs is more of an active burrow-based map control mechanism. Fortunately, from the HotS preview, it seems like burrow-banelings will be able to move underground at hive tech. This still is far too late into the game for a detection based map control device. Some way for infestors or roach to be active threats while burrowed would be a major improvement (or moving that proposed baneling upgrade to lair tech) would do wonders for stabilizing zerg map control and making them less reliant on active armies. 3) Static Defense and the Non-Necessity of Siege ![]() Look Ma! No units! Static defense in Starcraft 2 is extremely weak at actually defending anything. The strength of static defense is supposed to be raw stopping power, in exchange for absolutely no mobility. The idea of static defense is that you sacrifice map control for very cost efficient defense. However, due to the lack of any meaningful map control in Starcraft 2, the opportunity cost for static defense simply isn't very high, and as such, the cost efficiency had to be lowered, to give an incentive to players to make mobile armies and kill each other. That seems to be the direction Blizzard went with in designing this game. There is a huge emphasis on making armies to go kill people, and very little emphasis on actually staying alive. Naturally, given the weakness of static defense in general, the universal stopping power of defense is much lower than it could be, and that leads to the high level of coinflip losses to allins, because defense is so weak you cannot invest in large amounts of the wrong defense. In addition, since there is little reason to rely on static defense to stay alive, the role of siege units is dramatically reduced, which contributes dramatically to the big deathball army-movement, and one punch victories. Buffing static defense however has led to stronger cheese (stronger bunkers and stronger cannons, and even spine crawler/queen rushes in beta). This creates a strange situation for us. I think the appropriate response is to make static defense more upgradable, as to avoid the use of strong static defense as cheese early, but without sacrificing stopping power. The planetary fortress is actually a strong example of such defense, and I think it offers a strong incentive towards map control style play, where you don't have to rely on large armies to hold position. In Conclusion: Starcraft 2 suffers from unit design that limits meaningful interaction between players. Much of the interaction is one-sided, and as such, the game is less about being the other player than about beating the units themselves. The lack of meaningful map control contributes to a very unstable gameplay, and leads to large-battle centric games. If HotS is to solve these major problems, it needs to implement more micro-able units, which function as distinct and unique conduits with multiple dimensions of interaction between players. Adding more flat units will only further supplant existing units and destabilize the game. I like the part where you bring up command and conquer as having juggernauts in their games. Dune2000 was the same way, Mass Devestators anyone? My point being, you brought it up, and the original blizz team has been fired for a while, and dustin browder was the brains behind C&C series, and now we're seeing the same "juggernaut" behavior in sc2 and hes on the top of the sc2 team.. It can't be coincidence, can it? at this point, I'd like to point out the atriciousness of having to deal with force fields with thors and ultralisks, if you're not P. These units are basically "must build" vs anyone planning to fight someone using mass sentries. the problem is, the mass sentry stalker zealot all in comes out so much sooner than ultras in particular, while terran can wall off and simply sit in bunkers and actually abuse FF for themselves via tank. you never see FF used against terran like its used against zerg for auto-wins. fast Teching to Ultra to bust FFs is such fragile and abusable play against the zerg doing it. Lets face facts that most of the early and midgame zerg army that can actually fight other armies is all ground based, so you NEED to break through FFs, I like your section on roaches. It was very clear to me from examining them and reading their "flavor text' they were designed to get in there, attrition the enemy some and soak up damage, and then run off to regen for the next battle or for continuance of the current battle. Unfortunately the way the game currently plays out, their high population cost and all the loss/nerf of armor and regen means they're 1 time use, so they don't even perform their intended role anymore. they just steal other roles and perform mildly above average at them to be more worth building at most times than ling hydra. the population cost means they're in too few number to actually Screen effectively vs stalker or marines, so they get focused down singularly easier, making the idea of attack and retreat regen less viable. then they actually lost all their regen powers above ground and their armor as well. Roaches were imbalanced, it is true, but they destroyed the unit and it doesn't have any intrinsically good use. Roach vs Z and P automatically, no roaches vs T. why is this? On your section of tanks, a massed zerg army in brood war could deal with tanks in brood war because of no smartfire and slow firing time. your zerg units actually had huge numbers. zerg has more or less equal numbers vs T or P in sc2, that is if they don't wahnt to die from the smartfire and fast damaging AoE frm P or T for using lings. lings still have their place, but they're much harder to use efficiently, and maybe thats a good thing, however this leads back to "why not just use roaches in this scenario". | ||
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Nazza
Australia1654 Posts
There is C) in the game, but alot of it relies on A). The problem with alot of A) is that it has quite a bit of offensive applications too. FFs for defense can equally be used for offense and harassment. That's good, it adds variety to the game. Everyone wants to see abilities that have multiple use etc. etc. But the problem is that FFs are too powerful early game/early game aggression. BW had stasis which pretty much made your units useless as well. However, that came out after 10 mins into the game, where terran would have/should have Vessels with EMP and goliath. Terran would also counter this with good spreading of tanks. As for zone of control, Thors do impose a zone of control on mutalisks. A few thors will deter any mutas from coming into your base. But ofc that is just air, and that's just having ridiculous amount of DPS. (JOOKTO NOOOOOO) As for static defense, I tend to disagree. Turrets seem to be better than their BW counterparts, and Planetary Fortresses tend to punish someone who has the multitask/game sense to figure out that a base is "undefended", sends a hit squad of a couple units while some other engagement is underway to damage an economy somewhere. Bunkers do their job, cannons are better than their BW counterparts too (6 lings can't kill a cannon anymore iirc). I honestly think it's better to have the player defend his base with units. BW units did an exceptionally better job than static defenses ever did (think PvZ where a base had to be defended with a few reavers/HTs with storm, or TvP, a few tanks behind a wall/spider mines) | ||
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Falling
Canada11369 Posts
On January 12 2012 13:05 BronzeLeague wrote: About your problem with armies being able to disengage, this may be more of stylistic choice, but i disagree that someone who makes a mistake should be able to get away with it scott free. I think that they should be punished for playing poorly. If you charge a protoss and you are so vastly outnumbered that he has the option to use his forcefields to do anything but survive, then you have made a huge mistake and do not deserve to get away. Likewise with marauders. If you make a micro mistake and engage a terran that you do not want to engage, you should pay for that mistake. Concussive shells allow terran to pick off a few units without being able to instantly kill your army. I would just like to point out that, engaging and then retreating under fire is actually punishment in an of itself because any sort of range or AoE is shelling you the entire time. You don't need to in addition to that, also trap the entire army. It becomes to binary/ all or nothing which leads to giant stand-offs and then one giant commitment to see who wins the game. The ability to nibble at the edge and whittle down forces to find a better position is far superior as it promotes a greater incentive to engage. On January 12 2012 13:05 BronzeLeague wrote: With regards to AOE, it is very powerful, but perhaps that is a good thing. Like the thor, storms are both very powerful and comparatively immobile, but maybe that is a good thing. It forces the player not using the aoe to showcase his controll by dodging a potentially game ending blow. Maybe sometimes we need strong immobile things for a speedy and daring micro player to barely dodge. Just think about how tense you get watching lings and banelings micro against each other. Don't you get some of that same tension every time a pack of mutas gets near a thor or a templar is storming near a zerg army? I would argue AoE has actually be nerfed like crazy. It's balanced in SC2, but compare the power of AoE in BW to SC2. I know I always harp on this, but storms actually killed stuff (including workers) in one storm or a second to catch the rest of the workers. In regards to your muta comment. The actual mechanics in SC2 prevent muta control from being as effective as its counterpart used to be (maybe combined with Battlenet latency.) One thing that someone else mentioned was that Collosi were in fact micro-eable. Well they are in that they can be moved, if you call that micro. And you can put them in a shuttle, but the sort of choice in targetting is pretty limited. Compared to the sort of decision making involved in: Spoiler to conserve space + Show Spoiler + ![]() This is taken from Reaver Drop Again ignore that it's a BW unit. Look at the decision making involved in whether you hit the forward tank, back tank, further back tank. Each target has a significantly different amount of splash damage it's going to do. But if you get to close, your shuttle might get sniped, or maybe the tanks might fire on you. Even paying attention to which way those tank turrets were facing made a difference because it took a little time to readjust to fire. Furthermore with overkill, you could bait the tanks into firing with a zealot, then quickly drop the reaver, pick your best shot, scoop up your reaver before the next volley and retreat. And because reaver actually took up space, it made a difference where you dropped it off when the shuttle returned it to the front lines. Too far back- not going to fire. Too far forward, something's going to rush in and snipe it or the shuttle. In the middle, need to move the army around to make room for it. With the amount of different factors involved, skilled reaver control could tear apart an unprepared terran player (or Protoss or Zerg player.) So sure, you can move the collosi back and forth a bit and focus fire on certain units, but the difference isn't nearly so significant or rewarding. Most importantly, Reavers were allowed to be ridiculously powerful, because they were hard to use effectively. Basically no more than 2 shuttles of 4 reavers else the cost-effectiveness goes down as you couldn't micro them enough to get their full potential. Only late game would really see more than that vs Zerg. Any easy to use, A move or smart casting unit has to be nerfed so that it's balanced because left on alone it performs almost as well as being microed. Skilled reaver use increased it's effectiveness sevenfold, but wasn't imbalanced because it required babysitting. Oh and they also worked for the easy to use/hard to master philosophy of Blizzard. They still worked really well as 15APM newbie. Just upgrade the 10 scarab shot and damage and sit them behind your 30 cannons and let the newbie zerg who doesn't-know-how-to-use-Dark-Swarm come. They were fun defensively for noobs and awesome to behold for the pro's. | ||
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Disarm22
United States151 Posts
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rUiNati0n
United States1155 Posts
One of the parts that really interested me was about how microing the collosus around actually decreases its usefulness because it is unclear if the attack does damage despite an animation playing. Related to lurkers and using burrowed units for map control, I think that the fact that the zerg army is balance around mostly units that cannot shoot up brings up problems with the units that require detection. All current mobile detectors are air units and so there is usually not a risk of losing the detection except to Mutas. This makes it easier to move out against burrowed units without fear of losing detection and being stranded mid map. Just something I was thinking about. | ||
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Apus
New Zealand74 Posts
One thing I'd like to point out is with the Sentry. You say that once the battle has commenced (PvT in this example) that FF takes away micro. You didn't mention the fact that Terrans have been getting into the habit lately of picking up the trapped units in their Medivacs and dropping them behind the FFs. This is quite micro intensive and actually renders the FFs useless aside from being 'safe' until they run out. What has happened in this situation? Protoss has lost energy which may need to be replaced through building more Sentries, and the Terran has lost hardly anything. This moves on to more interesting unit placement from Protoss because there's the possibility you could then snipe the Medivac(s), but of course you don't want your Stalkers getting too close. Of course Zerg too could do this with their number of ovies they have, and we have seen similar things with Baneling drops and whatnot. So for me, this puts Fungal aheady of FF as the number one most micro limiting ability. Would definitely like to hear any thoughts to the contrary of this, cause for me it creates awesome micro situations, and anything coming pre-medivacs is more than likely to be a cheese or all in. | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
I really hate the Colossus though. If you want area control, just look back at Warp-in Storm. Anywhere you had Pylon coverage you could bring considerable force to bear at the cost of 150 gas a shot, but when moving out of Pylon coverage you were vulnerable. Those were the best days of spectated PvT. But because lategame Colossus/High Templar was too powerful, they chose to remove Khaydarin Amulet to save the Colossus. And then they nerfed EMP to compensate for crippled Templar. They should have just killed the Colossus and kept the Templar/Ghost dynamic - Warp-in Storms providing a considerable defensive advantage, but powerful Ghosts picking them off if they tried to be agressive. Then the game would really have been about slowly pushing Pylon coverage across the map. Gah. It could have been so beautiful, but instead it was killed off in its prime. So sad. Colossi are also responsible for the existence of the Corrupter, another incredibly boring unit. You can't tell me Corrupters exist for any purpose other than countering Colossi (and making Brood Lords). | ||
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EternaLLegacy
United States410 Posts
On January 12 2012 13:48 Falling wrote: I would just like to point out that, engaging and then retreating under fire is actually punishment in an of itself because any sort of range or AoE is shelling you the entire time. You don't need to in addition to that, also trap the entire army. It becomes to binary/ all or nothing which leads to giant stand-offs and then one giant commitment to see who wins the game. The ability to nibble at the edge and whittle down forces to find a better position is far superior as it promotes a greater incentive to engage. I would argue AoE has actually be nerfed like crazy. It's balanced in SC2, but compare the power of AoE in BW to SC2. I know I always harp on this, but storms actually killed stuff (including workers) in one storm or a second to catch the rest of the workers. In regards to your muta comment. The actual mechanics in SC2 prevent muta control from being as effective as its counterpart used to be (maybe combined with Battlenet lag.) One thing that someone else mentioned was that Collosi were in fact micro-eable. Well they are in that they can be moved, if you call that micro. And you can put them in a shuttle, but the sort of choice in targetting is pretty limited. Compared to the sort of decision making involved in: Spoiler to conserve space + Show Spoiler + ![]() This is taken from Reaver Drop Again ignore that it's a BW unit. Look at the decision making involved in whether you hit the forward tank, back tank, further back tank. Each target has a significantly different amount of splash damage it's going to do. But if you get to close, your shuttle might get sniped, or maybe the tanks might fire on you. Even paying attention to which way those tank turrets were facing made a difference because it took a little time to readjust to fire. Furthermore with overkill, you could bait the tanks into firing with a zealot, then quickly drop the reaver, pick your best shot, scoop up your reaver before the next volley and retreat. And because reaver actually took up space, it made a difference where you dropped it off when the shuttle returned it to the front lines. Too far back- not going to fire. Too far forward, something's going to rush in and snipe it or the shuttle. In the middle, need to move the army around to make room for it. With the amount of different factors involved, skilled reaver control could tear apart an unprepared terran player (or Protoss or Zerg player.) So sure, you can move the collosi back and forth a bit and focus fire on certain units, but the difference isn't nearly so significant or rewarding. Most importantly, Reavers were allowed to be ridiculously powerful, because they were hard to use effectively. Basically no more than 2 shuttles of 4 reavers else the cost-effectiveness goes down as you couldn't micro them enough to get their full potential. Only late game would really see more than that vs Zerg. Any easy to use, A move or smart casting unit has to be nerfed so that it's balanced because left on alone it performs almost as well as being microed. Skilled reaver use increased it's effectiveness sevenfold, but wasn't imbalanced because it required babysitting. Really well said. I love that clip of the reaver thread, it really illustrates the amount of decision making involved in using not just a reaver, but a shuttle as well. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On January 12 2012 13:54 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Wait, you're complaining that Tanks aren't powerful enough? Don't they already define two matchups and serve crucial roles in powerful all-ins for the third? The only useful thing about superpowerful Siege Tanks is that I always know who to root for thanks to them: Zerg in SC2 and Protoss in SCBW. I really hate the Colossus though. If you want area control, just look back at Warp-in Storm. Anywhere you had Pylon coverage you could bring considerable force to bear at the cost of 150 gas a shot, but when moving out of Pylon coverage you were vulnerable. Those were the best days of spectated PvT. But because lategame Colossus/High Templar was too powerful, they chose to remove Khaydarin Amulet to save the Colossus. And then they nerfed EMP to compensate for crippled Templar. They should have just killed the Colossus and kept the Templar/Ghost dynamic - Warp-in Storms providing a considerable defensive advantage, but powerful Ghosts picking them off if they tried to be agressive. Then the game would really have been about slowly pushing Pylon coverage across the map. Gah. It could have been so beautiful, but instead it was killed off in its prime. So sad. Colossi are also responsible for the existence of the Corrupter, another incredibly boring unit. You can't tell me Corrupters exist for any purpose other than countering Colossi (and making Brood Lords). Warp-in Storms was pretty ridiculous. That really makes it almost impossible to do counterattacks against toss. That's going to lead to less interesting games in general. Your solution is actually make less options in the game so templar are so much better? I mean templar are already pretty damn awesome against Terran and it's very common to see chargelot/templar even now. Blizzard clearly made sensible choices in those nerfs. Though I will definitely agree that corruptors are boring and lame. | ||
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ReaperStarcraft
United States7 Posts
Again, kudos on this post and very good examples. I feel like I could nitpick a bit, but instead I'll be more constructive by recommending a book I greatly enjoyed on this topic. If you haven't already read it I highly recommend the book "The art of game design / a book of lenses" by Jesse Schell. | ||
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CookieMaker
Canada880 Posts
I hope to see this highlighted by TL staff. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11075 Posts
*Maybe the casters would be a balance discussion but I think fungal deserves a thorough examination in the context of the whole race. | ||
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