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Dude, I' starting to to doubt that the OP even plays SC2 or watches it played ever...
Never seen the Collosi use the cliff? WTF? I've seen probably thirty pro games where that mechanic is used to great effectiveness. Others where the high-ground vision it offers change the shape of the game. It's used all the time.
Never see tanks anymore? WTF? I think MVP used tanks in every single game he played last night... Come on man...
This is just like your last thread, but worse! You still don't provide any solid examples (with videos, screenshots, etc). You still are comparing the games as if they are exactly the same or should be exactly the same...
Calling the SC2 tank "weak" or "broken" because it is not exactly like the BW tank is... I don't even know how to describe how silly that is.
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My take on his tank stance is the fact that tanks are more of a liability now as armies are more mobile than ever. I like the idea of having many counters to a scenario. He does have a valid point about game flow and static defense being piss poor.
Try to avoid comparisons as much as possible because people will jump on it any chance they get. Instead think about RTS fundamentals.
Breakdown the good from the bad to the ugly.
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This topic: a bunch of SC2 players getting upset that people with any kind of BW experience think the game can be improved.
Stop trying to prove the OP wrong and start making yourself look right. The debate itself is worthless; only possible conclusions/insight are of value. If you think forcefield or colossus design adds to the game, give some great examples of nailbiting moments revolving around colossus or sentries. If you think tanks are fine, give an example of a TvP where tanks give enough zone/map control to make the game more dynamic and interesting.
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On January 12 2012 09:44 Jehct wrote:
This topic: a bunch of SC2 players getting upset that people with any kind of BW experience think the game can be improved.
If we went to the BW forum and continually made threads about how BW needs to be improved to be more like SC2 we would get banned so why on earth do you think it's acceptable for BW fans to continually come to the SC2 forum and tell us how our game needs to be made more like BW so it's actually good?
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On January 12 2012 09:11 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
Dude, I' starting to to doubt that the OP even plays SC2 or watches it played ever...
Never seen the Collosi use the cliff? WTF? I've seen probably thirty pro games where that mechanic is used to great effectiveness. Others where the high-ground vision it offers change the shape of the game. It's used all the time.
Never see tanks anymore? WTF? I think MVP used tanks in every single game he played last night... Come on man...
This is just like your last thread, but worse! You still don't provide any solid examples (with videos, screenshots, etc). You still are comparing the games as if they are exactly the same or should be exactly the same...
Calling the SC2 tank "weak" or "broken" because it is not exactly like the BW tank is... I don't even know how to describe how silly that is.
You need to re-read the OP and read his FULL conclusion about each unit.
Collosi as a cliff raiding unit, not the fact that you built your robo on the high ground and it is forced to once walk down a cliff to join your ball. Yes, I know sometimes they walk up cliffs when protoss attacks, but not as an individual cliff raiding unit.
Tanks - he was talking about the ground they could permanantly hold in a TvP in BW. Zerg just rolls through them in this game unless terran is very far ahead. Protoss has many units that cancle out siege tanks as well. He is also no talking about the siege tank being weak, yet the opponents being able to get rid of it so easily.
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On January 12 2012 09:44 Jehct wrote:
This topic: a bunch of SC2 players getting upset that people with any kind of BW experience think the game can be improved.
Stop trying to prove the OP wrong and start making yourself look right. The debate itself is worthless; only possible conclusions/insight are of value. If you think forcefield or colossus design adds to the game, give some great examples of nailbiting moments revolving around colossus or sentries. If you think tanks are fine, give an example of a TvP where tanks give enough zone/map control to make the game more dynamic and interesting.
I've seen maybe one or two posters outright object to comparing Starcraft 2 and Starcraft: Brood War, I agree that's a silly thing to refuse, but mostly, there have been criticisms of the OP for drawing bad comparisons. Banelings are not like lurkers and need not fill the exact same role, yet even so, the OP used this to argue for the Lurker's superiority and showed a video that actually exactly mimics a core use of the baneling.
And nice challenges you set out: if you think tanks are fine, then prove a map control use in TvP, the only match-up they're not used for map control.
On January 12 2012 10:14 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 09:44 Jehct wrote:
This topic: a bunch of SC2 players getting upset that people with any kind of BW experience think the game can be improved. If we went to the BW forum and continually made threads about how BW needs to be improved to be more like SC2 we would get banned so why on earth do you think it's acceptable for BW fans to continually come to the SC2 forum and tell us how our game needs to be made more like BW so it's actually good?
Brood War is a better and more successful competitive game and Starcraft 2 is a direct sequel. Obviously there will be comparisons. I don't think it's fair to cast the OP as someone who wants the game to be 'like Brood War', other than that he wants it to be just as fun as Brood War. I do think the article he wrote was kind of badly argued, since it's too long and filled with straight assertions about Brood War unit concepts being superior to Starcraft 2 ones.
I wouldn't go out and defend the colossus and sentry myself as amazing units, though, but the two of them have created plenty of exciting moments. Forcefielding against baneling busts, overwhelming roach numbers, bio balls are all often tricky and cool to watch. That's not a good way to decide if the unit should stay or go however.
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On January 12 2012 10:14 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 09:11 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
Dude, I' starting to to doubt that the OP even plays SC2 or watches it played ever...
Never seen the Collosi use the cliff? WTF? I've seen probably thirty pro games where that mechanic is used to great effectiveness. Others where the high-ground vision it offers change the shape of the game. It's used all the time.
Never see tanks anymore? WTF? I think MVP used tanks in every single game he played last night... Come on man...
This is just like your last thread, but worse! You still don't provide any solid examples (with videos, screenshots, etc). You still are comparing the games as if they are exactly the same or should be exactly the same...
Calling the SC2 tank "weak" or "broken" because it is not exactly like the BW tank is... I don't even know how to describe how silly that is. You need to re-read the OP and read his FULL conclusion about each unit. Collosi as a cliff raiding unit, not the fact that you built your robo on the high ground and it is forced to once walk down a cliff to join your ball. Yes, I know sometimes they walk up cliffs when protoss attacks, but not as an individual cliff raiding unit. Tanks - he was talking about the ground they could permanantly hold in a TvP in BW. Zerg just rolls through them in this game unless terran is very far ahead. Protoss has many units that cancle out siege tanks as well. He is also no talking about the siege tank being weak, yet the opponents being able to get rid of it so easily.
FIrst off sounds like someone needs to watch Hero and White-Ra more; they do the craziest stuff with Collosi!
Also Tanks are the key unit of TvT and one of the core units of TvZ (I'm actually completely confused where you get the idea that zergs just roll through tanks in SC2), it's okay that they aren't also a core part of TvP, every race has units which are used more heavily in certain matchups.
On January 12 2012 10:16 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 10:14 TheButtonmen wrote:On January 12 2012 09:44 Jehct wrote:
This topic: a bunch of SC2 players getting upset that people with any kind of BW experience think the game can be improved. If we went to the BW forum and continually made threads about how BW needs to be improved to be more like SC2 we would get banned so why on earth do you think it's acceptable for BW fans to continually come to the SC2 forum and tell us how our game needs to be made more like BW so it's actually good? Brood War is a better and more successful competitive game and Starcraft 2 is a direct sequel. Obviously there will be comparisons.
See here is what you don't seem to get.
We don't think BW is a better game then SC2, we love SC2 not BW, no amount of posting about how our game is inferiorly designed, how our scene is a farce and how bad our pros are is going to change this. If we wanted to watch BW we would watch BW, we don't begrudge you the game you love so please return the courtesy and don't come into our home and try to evangelize about the game you love.
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shit i was ignoring this thred,didnt realize it was part 2! you should use a tag before the tittle so we dont have to scroll over to see if its a new part . lets go read =)
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Very nice read. I Agree all the way. Ty for the read.
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Thank you for the article. I found it to be quite an interesting read. A lot of the points you brought up are open to discussion but if we move beyond questions of balance and into the realm of unit design it brings up some interesting ideas.
I also think a lot of the people criticising should re-read the article instead of just looking at the headings.
Cheers, looking out for any more to come :-)
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On January 12 2012 10:25 Carras wrote:
shit i was ignoring this thred,didnt realize it was part 2! you should use a tag before the tittle so we dont have to scroll over to see if its a new part . lets go read =)
I'll do that for the next 2 parts.
A side question: Would you guys appreciate a corollary video where I discuss the concepts and show ingame footage that illustrates what I'm talking about? I think the text/picture articles are more accessible, and certainly less work. I'd only want to video if people really felt like it added a new level to the discussion.
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Nice post OP.
A side question: Would you guys appreciate a corollary video where I discuss the concepts and show ingame footage that illustrates what I'm talking about? I think the text/picture articles are more accessible, and certainly less work. I'd only want to video if people really felt like it added a new level to the discussion.
Like BW examples? i'd love that.
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Very nice post  Enjoyed it and you have brought my attention to several things I have not thought of or considered before. I mainly agree with the things you say.
Thanks for writing!
Also that immortal lego thing is epic
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On January 12 2012 10:20 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 10:16 Grumbels wrote:On January 12 2012 10:14 TheButtonmen wrote:On January 12 2012 09:44 Jehct wrote:
This topic: a bunch of SC2 players getting upset that people with any kind of BW experience think the game can be improved. If we went to the BW forum and continually made threads about how BW needs to be improved to be more like SC2 we would get banned so why on earth do you think it's acceptable for BW fans to continually come to the SC2 forum and tell us how our game needs to be made more like BW so it's actually good? Brood War is a better and more successful competitive game and Starcraft 2 is a direct sequel. Obviously there will be comparisons. See here is what you don't seem to get. We don't think BW is a better game then SC2, we love SC2 not BW, no amount of posting about how our game is inferiorly designed, how our scene is a farce and how bad our pros are is going to change this. If we wanted to watch BW we would watch BW, we don't begrudge you the game you love so please return the courtesy and don't come into our home and try to evangelize about the game you love.
I don't want to burst your bubble, but just about everyone thinks BW is a better competitive game than SC2, including every single SC2 pro-gamer. I still like Starcraft 2, in fact, I play and follow the game way more than Brood War. That's the very reason I would like to see it improved, and what better way than to draw on inspiration from its successful and amazing predecessor? If you want to claim the SC2 forum as the place for people who think SC2 is the superior game, then I just don't think team liquid is meant for you, sorry. Maybe try Reddit?
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On January 12 2012 11:15 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 10:20 TheButtonmen wrote:On January 12 2012 10:16 Grumbels wrote:On January 12 2012 10:14 TheButtonmen wrote:On January 12 2012 09:44 Jehct wrote:
This topic: a bunch of SC2 players getting upset that people with any kind of BW experience think the game can be improved. If we went to the BW forum and continually made threads about how BW needs to be improved to be more like SC2 we would get banned so why on earth do you think it's acceptable for BW fans to continually come to the SC2 forum and tell us how our game needs to be made more like BW so it's actually good? Brood War is a better and more successful competitive game and Starcraft 2 is a direct sequel. Obviously there will be comparisons. See here is what you don't seem to get. We don't think BW is a better game then SC2, we love SC2 not BW, no amount of posting about how our game is inferiorly designed, how our scene is a farce and how bad our pros are is going to change this. If we wanted to watch BW we would watch BW, we don't begrudge you the game you love so please return the courtesy and don't come into our home and try to evangelize about the game you love. I don't want to burst your bubble, but just about everyone thinks BW is a better competitive game than SC2
There are more SC2 fans who have zero knowledge about Broodwar then there are Broodwar fans, our community is more then an order of magnitude bigger then the BW one.
Who is this everyone?
On January 12 2012 11:15 Grumbels wrote: If you want to claim the SC2 forum as the place for people who think SC2 is the superior game, then I just don't think team liquid is meant for you, sorry. Maybe try Reddit?
What egotistical elitism is this? I need to leave TL simply because I don't consider BW a better game?
If a SC2 fan went into the BW forums and started talking about how BW needed to be changed to be more like SC2 for it to be a good game and succed the BW users would flip out, attack them and the they would be banned. Why is it so hard for you to understand that we feel the same way about our game?
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On January 12 2012 11:25 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 11:15 Grumbels wrote:On January 12 2012 10:20 TheButtonmen wrote:On January 12 2012 10:16 Grumbels wrote:On January 12 2012 10:14 TheButtonmen wrote:On January 12 2012 09:44 Jehct wrote:
This topic: a bunch of SC2 players getting upset that people with any kind of BW experience think the game can be improved. If we went to the BW forum and continually made threads about how BW needs to be improved to be more like SC2 we would get banned so why on earth do you think it's acceptable for BW fans to continually come to the SC2 forum and tell us how our game needs to be made more like BW so it's actually good? Brood War is a better and more successful competitive game and Starcraft 2 is a direct sequel. Obviously there will be comparisons. See here is what you don't seem to get. We don't think BW is a better game then SC2, we love SC2 not BW, no amount of posting about how our game is inferiorly designed, how our scene is a farce and how bad our pros are is going to change this. If we wanted to watch BW we would watch BW, we don't begrudge you the game you love so please return the courtesy and don't come into our home and try to evangelize about the game you love. I don't want to burst your bubble, but just about everyone thinks BW is a better competitive game than SC2 There are more SC2 fans who have zero knowledge about Broodwar then there are Broodwar fans, our community is more then an order of magnitude bigger then the BW one. Who is this everyone? Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 11:15 Grumbels wrote: If you want to claim the SC2 forum as the place for people who think SC2 is the superior game, then I just don't think team liquid is meant for you, sorry. Maybe try Reddit? What egotistical elitism is this? I need to leave TL simply because I don't consider BW a better game? If a SC2 fan went into the BW forums and started talking about how BW needed to be changed to be more like SC2 for it to be a good game and succed the BW users would flip out, attack them and the they would be banned. Why is it so hard for you to understand that we feel the same way about our game?
The problem is your use of "we", which is a group of people you seem to be a spokesperson for, but that doesn't exist outside your mind. I actually couldn't stop giggling at your posts since it reminds me of the "My name is legion, for we are many." quote.
I'm sure a lot of people have never played Brood War or are even hardly familiar with it. However, Team Liquid is the world's premiere English-language Brood War site and I just really doubt that even the SC2 players and forum members here think the game is superior to BW. Maybe you and some others are an exception. I do agree the endless insinuations that the game should become virtually exactly like Brood War are obnoxious. If I see one more thread that ends with: "...and that's why we need the Reaver" I'll be offended, actually, at the utter lack of imagination and conservatism of that thought.
(and it's not even about whether BW is better than SC2, just that certain aspects of BW work out very nicely and helped contribute to its success and it would be nice for SC2 to have them - see Liquid`Tyler's post earlier)
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I'd love if someone could make a custom game where test changes could be done.
Imagine lower unit attack ranges but giving them upgrades.
A lurker whose damage lowers depending per unit hit.
Neural parasite with larger range but on hive tech.
Burrow on hatch tech but maybe from pool.
Upgradable spine crawlers that makes them immobile.
Roaches with active high regen.
Hydras with speed upgrade (not on hive=
Hydras with changed stats but on hatch tech.
Microable carriers.
High templar without feedback.
Ghosts without EMP.
Destroyable forcefields.
Ghosts without snipe.
Fungal without immobilisation a.k.a semi-plague.
Most of these may be stupid ideas but at least it would be worthwhile to try.
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On January 12 2012 11:25 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 11:15 Grumbels wrote:On January 12 2012 10:20 TheButtonmen wrote:On January 12 2012 10:16 Grumbels wrote:On January 12 2012 10:14 TheButtonmen wrote:On January 12 2012 09:44 Jehct wrote:
This topic: a bunch of SC2 players getting upset that people with any kind of BW experience think the game can be improved. If we went to the BW forum and continually made threads about how BW needs to be improved to be more like SC2 we would get banned so why on earth do you think it's acceptable for BW fans to continually come to the SC2 forum and tell us how our game needs to be made more like BW so it's actually good? Brood War is a better and more successful competitive game and Starcraft 2 is a direct sequel. Obviously there will be comparisons. See here is what you don't seem to get. We don't think BW is a better game then SC2, we love SC2 not BW, no amount of posting about how our game is inferiorly designed, how our scene is a farce and how bad our pros are is going to change this. If we wanted to watch BW we would watch BW, we don't begrudge you the game you love so please return the courtesy and don't come into our home and try to evangelize about the game you love. I don't want to burst your bubble, but just about everyone thinks BW is a better competitive game than SC2 There are more SC2 fans who have zero knowledge about Broodwar then there are Broodwar fans, our community is more then an order of magnitude bigger then the BW one. Who is this everyone? Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 11:15 Grumbels wrote: If you want to claim the SC2 forum as the place for people who think SC2 is the superior game, then I just don't think team liquid is meant for you, sorry. Maybe try Reddit? What egotistical elitism is this? I need to leave TL simply because I don't consider BW a better game? If a SC2 fan went into the BW forums and started talking about how BW needed to be changed to be more like SC2 for it to be a good game and succed the BW users would flip out, attack them and the they would be banned. Why is it so hard for you to understand that we feel the same way about our game?
Cut this nonsense out immediately. It's not your game. It's not about SC2 vs BW. There are things about BW I dislike that SC2 improved on. However, we're not currently anticipating any expansions for BW, are we? The reason it's worth talking about what SC2 lacks is because there's two expansions on the horizon which means there's still capacity for major improvements. In its current form, there is no way SC2 will be played for a decade, just like vanilla SC would never have been played for a decade.
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On micro reducers
Argh, reading this post is painful to me. It actually contains a massive self-contradiction. First it complains about so-called "micro-reducing abilities" and then it later on complains about the lack of zone control units. But stop for a minute and look at the units that are being pointed out! Most of the so-called micro reducers are actually zone controllers.
1. Sentries: yes, after forcefields go off you can't micro very much. The result of that is that you need to scout the enemy player and avoid moving in if forcefield will lead to a losing engagement. Know what that means? It means that having a group of sentries provides zone control in a situation where an opposing army would otherwise be stronger than the protoss player's army. Sentries allow protoss players to fast expand while protecting themselves from all-ins and they act as a force multiplier by allowing the protoss player to fight the enemy force in small groups. Instead, the OP suggests that micro can only happen once armies engage, whereas dancing just outside of range, trying to bait forcefields, and forcing the protoss to get more units are all viable micro strategies that can put a lot of pressure on the opponent. After all, if they do miss those forcefields after you baited a couple times, they're dead.
2. Fungal growth: Yet another zone control ability. Get too close to an infestor when you're not ready to engage and you die. Therefore you need to keep your distance until you've built up a better army or focus on harass and backdoor attacks. How is that a bad thing? It lets zerg players protect themselves and macro, and later on it can harass with burrow and provide powerful support in an army. There is nothing about this unit that reduces micro. It punishes people for bad engagements though and certainly makes the game less forgiving.
3. Marauder: first, the OP notes that it requires micro to make good use of this unit, so that already reflects oddly in a section entitled "micro-reducing units." But we'll ignore that for a second. The marauder doesn't actually work any differently than the sentry and the infestor. It punishes you for a bad engagement. It gets much better with good use of stim and stutter steps, and it gets much worse if you don't micro it. The opponent gets rewarded for good scouting and for picking their engagements. Probably the one complaint about the marauder is that, unlike the sentry and the infestor, it doesn't have much of a force multiplier effect, so you can't use marauders to allow for more economic and harrass-based gameplay. They only work to punish bad engagements but will die if the full terran army doesn't match up to the opponent's army. Nevertheless, a marauder-heavy terran army provides a much harder form of zone control than a regular ball of death because the marauders shut down most kinds of hit and run harrassment.
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On Micro-less units
On top of the above issues, I consider it the height of arrogance to suggest that any unit in Starcraft II, at this moment in time, would not benefit from micro. Collosus? Benefits from target firing to get the most out of its AOE, benefits from moving back and forth to bring air units into stalker range, and benefits from being in a separate control group to deal siege damage then back off into the main army. Roach? Benefits from burrow and move speed to avoid target firing, burrow movement undercuts force fields and lets a large roach army all attack, and the roach benefits heavily from flanks due to its short range.
The only reason people aren't doing most of the above is that the game is too hard. There are a ton of macro actions, large scale army movement actions, scouting actions, and harassment actions. Even the best players simply don't have the APM to micro their individual units for best effect in every conflict.
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On Game Design
Game design is not about balance or complexity or unit control. Those are sub-issues. Design is about making units that look and feel fun, and that lead to fun gameplay. You need both because if fun gameplay only arises after you've invested hours and hours of work, most people will never invest the work in the first place.
Day[9]'s issue in his design discussion was that the units don't feel physical enough to him. He tried to explain that as an issue of available actions for each unit (comparing a baseball with a frisbee). But that problem is a question of feeling and unit handling across the whole game. It's NOT something that happens because there are a bunch of slowing effects on different units.
Frankly, I'm sick of reading the same complaints blasted around in an echol chamber because people don't like certain units. I feel like most of the complaints would go away if people learned not to throw their whole army into a stupid engagement (granted I personally make this mistake all the time, but I also admit that I'm not that good). The pros have been progressively improving, there are a bunch of new units on the horizon, and condemning the entire game of Starcraft II because it's not like Brood War has reached the point where the horse is practically dismembered and we're just kicking around the pieces we've beaten it so much. Just stop.
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On January 12 2012 11:37 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 11:25 TheButtonmen wrote:On January 12 2012 11:15 Grumbels wrote:On January 12 2012 10:20 TheButtonmen wrote:On January 12 2012 10:16 Grumbels wrote:On January 12 2012 10:14 TheButtonmen wrote:On January 12 2012 09:44 Jehct wrote:
This topic: a bunch of SC2 players getting upset that people with any kind of BW experience think the game can be improved. If we went to the BW forum and continually made threads about how BW needs to be improved to be more like SC2 we would get banned so why on earth do you think it's acceptable for BW fans to continually come to the SC2 forum and tell us how our game needs to be made more like BW so it's actually good? Brood War is a better and more successful competitive game and Starcraft 2 is a direct sequel. Obviously there will be comparisons. See here is what you don't seem to get. We don't think BW is a better game then SC2, we love SC2 not BW, no amount of posting about how our game is inferiorly designed, how our scene is a farce and how bad our pros are is going to change this. If we wanted to watch BW we would watch BW, we don't begrudge you the game you love so please return the courtesy and don't come into our home and try to evangelize about the game you love. I don't want to burst your bubble, but just about everyone thinks BW is a better competitive game than SC2 There are more SC2 fans who have zero knowledge about Broodwar then there are Broodwar fans, our community is more then an order of magnitude bigger then the BW one. Who is this everyone? On January 12 2012 11:15 Grumbels wrote: If you want to claim the SC2 forum as the place for people who think SC2 is the superior game, then I just don't think team liquid is meant for you, sorry. Maybe try Reddit? What egotistical elitism is this? I need to leave TL simply because I don't consider BW a better game? If a SC2 fan went into the BW forums and started talking about how BW needed to be changed to be more like SC2 for it to be a good game and succed the BW users would flip out, attack them and the they would be banned. Why is it so hard for you to understand that we feel the same way about our game? The problem is your use of "we", which is a group of people you seem to be a spokesperson for, but that doesn't exist outside your mind. I actually couldn't stop giggling at your posts since it reminds me of the "My name is legion, for we are many." quote. I'm sure a lot of people have never played Brood War or are even hardly familiar with it. However, Team Liquid is the world's premiere English-language Brood War site and I just really doubt that even the SC2 players and forum members here think the game is superior to BW. Maybe you and some others are an exception. I do agree the endless insinuations that the game should become virtually exactly like Brood War are obnoxious. If I see one more thread that ends with: "...and that's why we need the Reaver" I'll be offended, actually, at the utter lack of imagination and conservatism of that thought. (and it's not even about whether BW is better than SC2, just that certain aspects of BW work out very nicely and helped contribute to its success and it would be nice for SC2 to have them - see Liquid`Tyler's post earlier)
There's no problem in saying "we" here. The problem is that you do not seem to consider that perhaps there are people who think SC2 is a better game. Though you seem to say "maybe you and some others are an exception"
So basically you completely contradicted yourself, and really don't have a point.
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EPT
