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On January 03 2012 01:03 Talack wrote:
I would really like to know the win ratio of any TvP game that goes over 20-25 minutes.
Yea.
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I think there's a general lack of quality protoss... personally. Even the better protoss seem to have poor mechanics.
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As it looks now there´s really no need to buff toss or zerg, blizz should just nerv ghosts a bit more. A little buff for Ultras would be okay too.
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On January 03 2012 00:59 StarcraftNerd1547 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 00:56 laharl23 wrote:On January 03 2012 00:51 ZenithM wrote:On January 02 2012 23:39 Badfatpanda wrote:On January 02 2012 23:00 ZenithM wrote:On January 02 2012 22:47 Badfatpanda wrote:On January 02 2012 20:15 ToastieNL wrote:
TvP is likely changing because
A- people learned to aim with smaller EMP
B- Skymehci s being developped and P needs to adapt
C- The core problem of the matchup (Colossi strong gateway weak) hasn't been attacked
D- Terran goes 2 engi bay faster than 2 forges for P
What? these are from professional matches. Skymech hasn't been seen being used other than here and there in a random bo3 since beta against protoss. People aren't learning to aim with EMP any more than 3 months ago, they've just been getting more ghosts. The core problem of the matchup is warpgate remax and zealots ability to tank damage for Protoss AOE units so well. And Terran getting ebays earlier than Protoss STILL end up with Protoss hitting 3/3 first because of chronoboost. Come on man. So, if there are only problems coming from Protoss OPness, how do you explain the even winrate? Better, Terran is actually ahead. My only problem with Terran is the strength of their one base play because of minerals oversaturation with mules. This is really problematic, design wise. Why would they be allowed to have 25% more income on one base than Protoss or Zerg (you saturate with roughly 16-20 SCV and a MULE mines like 4 SCVs so it's literally 20-25% more mining)? It's gigantic and emphasizes all-in play, because of the momentum you gain over the over races. The rest I'm ready to acknowledge everything you want, from "chargelots a-move boohoohoo OP, I must stutter step and it's hard  " to "mech is so bad, why can't I go mech even though Protoss can't go stargate either :'(". But I'd like the one base terran imbalance (in my humble opinion) to be dealt with, first. Then, nerf Protoss to the ground if you want. I DIDN'T SAY THERE WERE ONLY PROBLEMS. Please ffs just read what I was responding to. He wrote why TvP was changing from P favored to T favored, I said that his reasons didn't hold up. I don't believe in these win rates I think the majority of the system data is inflated due to the nature that TLPD accumulates it's data, the skill difference will be quite large. And in addition look at what Protoss has to offer in Korea among the top tier of players. What have they done recently and what have their Terran equivalents won? It's not due to imbalance it's due to a difference in player skill that has never really been examined and cannot be quantified into little graphs that come up every month. Oh look, it's the usual "Terran players are just better". every time i see that post i just laugh, "guys terran win rates are just high cause u know terrans are just the best players duah" Oh, look its the usual i make mass stalker, my opponent made marauders. Me mad now.
Well, now that the thread is going to devolve into flaming, I'm away.
Spouting unit counters doesn't make you correct.
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This is weird how TvP is at the win rate it is at for Korea considering the fact that the GSL is actively trying to favor protoss over terran to even the distribution with the maps and all.
And I could say the same, though to a lesser extent in regards to PvZ.
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Looks pretty good, only TvP seems to be a slighty imbalanced.
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Its annoying to see differences in Korea and the international scene. Personally I think the game should be balanced for the highest level, so you look at the korean chart for valuable data. But at Blizzcon the balance panel stated that it was okay that x race was good on y server, because it was the other way around on another server.
Thanks for making these charts. They are really interesting to look at, and probably the only proper thing you can use in a balance debate. Its also fun to see people try to brush of the data when their race is winning way too much.
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Wait, why are people whinning? Even the korean graph has been hovering at 50% for all year.....
PvZ seem to be the ¨worst¨ MU and even its within acceptable limits. Dunno why people are acting as if we were seeing 90% WR.
sigh
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On January 03 2012 00:59 StarcraftNerd1547 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 00:56 laharl23 wrote:On January 03 2012 00:51 ZenithM wrote:On January 02 2012 23:39 Badfatpanda wrote:On January 02 2012 23:00 ZenithM wrote:On January 02 2012 22:47 Badfatpanda wrote:On January 02 2012 20:15 ToastieNL wrote:
TvP is likely changing because
A- people learned to aim with smaller EMP
B- Skymehci s being developped and P needs to adapt
C- The core problem of the matchup (Colossi strong gateway weak) hasn't been attacked
D- Terran goes 2 engi bay faster than 2 forges for P
What? these are from professional matches. Skymech hasn't been seen being used other than here and there in a random bo3 since beta against protoss. People aren't learning to aim with EMP any more than 3 months ago, they've just been getting more ghosts. The core problem of the matchup is warpgate remax and zealots ability to tank damage for Protoss AOE units so well. And Terran getting ebays earlier than Protoss STILL end up with Protoss hitting 3/3 first because of chronoboost. Come on man. So, if there are only problems coming from Protoss OPness, how do you explain the even winrate? Better, Terran is actually ahead. My only problem with Terran is the strength of their one base play because of minerals oversaturation with mules. This is really problematic, design wise. Why would they be allowed to have 25% more income on one base than Protoss or Zerg (you saturate with roughly 16-20 SCV and a MULE mines like 4 SCVs so it's literally 20-25% more mining)? It's gigantic and emphasizes all-in play, because of the momentum you gain over the over races. The rest I'm ready to acknowledge everything you want, from "chargelots a-move boohoohoo OP, I must stutter step and it's hard " to "mech is so bad, why can't I go mech even though Protoss can't go stargate either :'(". But I'd like the one base terran imbalance (in my humble opinion) to be dealt with, first. Then, nerf Protoss to the ground if you want. I DIDN'T SAY THERE WERE ONLY PROBLEMS. Please ffs just read what I was responding to. He wrote why TvP was changing from P favored to T favored, I said that his reasons didn't hold up. I don't believe in these win rates I think the majority of the system data is inflated due to the nature that TLPD accumulates it's data, the skill difference will be quite large. And in addition look at what Protoss has to offer in Korea among the top tier of players. What have they done recently and what have their Terran equivalents won? It's not due to imbalance it's due to a difference in player skill that has never really been examined and cannot be quantified into little graphs that come up every month. Oh look, it's the usual "Terran players are just better". every time i see that post i just laugh, "guys terran win rates are just high cause u know terrans are just the best players duah" Oh, look its the usual i make mass stalker, my opponent made marauders. Me mad now.
Uh...what?
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On January 03 2012 01:14 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 00:59 StarcraftNerd1547 wrote:On January 03 2012 00:56 laharl23 wrote:On January 03 2012 00:51 ZenithM wrote:On January 02 2012 23:39 Badfatpanda wrote:On January 02 2012 23:00 ZenithM wrote:On January 02 2012 22:47 Badfatpanda wrote:On January 02 2012 20:15 ToastieNL wrote:
TvP is likely changing because
A- people learned to aim with smaller EMP
B- Skymehci s being developped and P needs to adapt
C- The core problem of the matchup (Colossi strong gateway weak) hasn't been attacked
D- Terran goes 2 engi bay faster than 2 forges for P
What? these are from professional matches. Skymech hasn't been seen being used other than here and there in a random bo3 since beta against protoss. People aren't learning to aim with EMP any more than 3 months ago, they've just been getting more ghosts. The core problem of the matchup is warpgate remax and zealots ability to tank damage for Protoss AOE units so well. And Terran getting ebays earlier than Protoss STILL end up with Protoss hitting 3/3 first because of chronoboost. Come on man. So, if there are only problems coming from Protoss OPness, how do you explain the even winrate? Better, Terran is actually ahead. My only problem with Terran is the strength of their one base play because of minerals oversaturation with mules. This is really problematic, design wise. Why would they be allowed to have 25% more income on one base than Protoss or Zerg (you saturate with roughly 16-20 SCV and a MULE mines like 4 SCVs so it's literally 20-25% more mining)? It's gigantic and emphasizes all-in play, because of the momentum you gain over the over races. The rest I'm ready to acknowledge everything you want, from "chargelots a-move boohoohoo OP, I must stutter step and it's hard " to "mech is so bad, why can't I go mech even though Protoss can't go stargate either :'(". But I'd like the one base terran imbalance (in my humble opinion) to be dealt with, first. Then, nerf Protoss to the ground if you want. I DIDN'T SAY THERE WERE ONLY PROBLEMS. Please ffs just read what I was responding to. He wrote why TvP was changing from P favored to T favored, I said that his reasons didn't hold up. I don't believe in these win rates I think the majority of the system data is inflated due to the nature that TLPD accumulates it's data, the skill difference will be quite large. And in addition look at what Protoss has to offer in Korea among the top tier of players. What have they done recently and what have their Terran equivalents won? It's not due to imbalance it's due to a difference in player skill that has never really been examined and cannot be quantified into little graphs that come up every month. Oh look, it's the usual "Terran players are just better". every time i see that post i just laugh, "guys terran win rates are just high cause u know terrans are just the best players duah" Oh, look its the usual i make mass stalker, my opponent made marauders. Me mad now. Uh...what?
Yes! YOu fell for the troll.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On January 03 2012 00:56 laharl23 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 00:51 ZenithM wrote:On January 02 2012 23:39 Badfatpanda wrote:On January 02 2012 23:00 ZenithM wrote:On January 02 2012 22:47 Badfatpanda wrote:On January 02 2012 20:15 ToastieNL wrote:
TvP is likely changing because
A- people learned to aim with smaller EMP
B- Skymehci s being developped and P needs to adapt
C- The core problem of the matchup (Colossi strong gateway weak) hasn't been attacked
D- Terran goes 2 engi bay faster than 2 forges for P
What? these are from professional matches. Skymech hasn't been seen being used other than here and there in a random bo3 since beta against protoss. People aren't learning to aim with EMP any more than 3 months ago, they've just been getting more ghosts. The core problem of the matchup is warpgate remax and zealots ability to tank damage for Protoss AOE units so well. And Terran getting ebays earlier than Protoss STILL end up with Protoss hitting 3/3 first because of chronoboost. Come on man. So, if there are only problems coming from Protoss OPness, how do you explain the even winrate? Better, Terran is actually ahead. My only problem with Terran is the strength of their one base play because of minerals oversaturation with mules. This is really problematic, design wise. Why would they be allowed to have 25% more income on one base than Protoss or Zerg (you saturate with roughly 16-20 SCV and a MULE mines like 4 SCVs so it's literally 20-25% more mining)? It's gigantic and emphasizes all-in play, because of the momentum you gain over the over races. The rest I'm ready to acknowledge everything you want, from "chargelots a-move boohoohoo OP, I must stutter step and it's hard " to "mech is so bad, why can't I go mech even though Protoss can't go stargate either :'(". But I'd like the one base terran imbalance (in my humble opinion) to be dealt with, first. Then, nerf Protoss to the ground if you want. I DIDN'T SAY THERE WERE ONLY PROBLEMS. Please ffs just read what I was responding to. He wrote why TvP was changing from P favored to T favored, I said that his reasons didn't hold up. I don't believe in these win rates I think the majority of the system data is inflated due to the nature that TLPD accumulates it's data, the skill difference will be quite large. And in addition look at what Protoss has to offer in Korea among the top tier of players. What have they done recently and what have their Terran equivalents won? It's not due to imbalance it's due to a difference in player skill that has never really been examined and cannot be quantified into little graphs that come up every month. Oh look, it's the usual "Terran players are just better". every time i see that post i just laugh, "guys terran win rates are just high cause u know terrans are just the best players duah"
Prove me wrong hot shot? Besides are you really crying over 52-48 LOL. Please enlighten me as to how my assessment was wrong though really.
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On January 03 2012 01:49 Badfatpanda wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 00:56 laharl23 wrote:On January 03 2012 00:51 ZenithM wrote:On January 02 2012 23:39 Badfatpanda wrote:On January 02 2012 23:00 ZenithM wrote:On January 02 2012 22:47 Badfatpanda wrote:On January 02 2012 20:15 ToastieNL wrote:
TvP is likely changing because
A- people learned to aim with smaller EMP
B- Skymehci s being developped and P needs to adapt
C- The core problem of the matchup (Colossi strong gateway weak) hasn't been attacked
D- Terran goes 2 engi bay faster than 2 forges for P
What? these are from professional matches. Skymech hasn't been seen being used other than here and there in a random bo3 since beta against protoss. People aren't learning to aim with EMP any more than 3 months ago, they've just been getting more ghosts. The core problem of the matchup is warpgate remax and zealots ability to tank damage for Protoss AOE units so well. And Terran getting ebays earlier than Protoss STILL end up with Protoss hitting 3/3 first because of chronoboost. Come on man. So, if there are only problems coming from Protoss OPness, how do you explain the even winrate? Better, Terran is actually ahead. My only problem with Terran is the strength of their one base play because of minerals oversaturation with mules. This is really problematic, design wise. Why would they be allowed to have 25% more income on one base than Protoss or Zerg (you saturate with roughly 16-20 SCV and a MULE mines like 4 SCVs so it's literally 20-25% more mining)? It's gigantic and emphasizes all-in play, because of the momentum you gain over the over races. The rest I'm ready to acknowledge everything you want, from "chargelots a-move boohoohoo OP, I must stutter step and it's hard " to "mech is so bad, why can't I go mech even though Protoss can't go stargate either :'(". But I'd like the one base terran imbalance (in my humble opinion) to be dealt with, first. Then, nerf Protoss to the ground if you want. I DIDN'T SAY THERE WERE ONLY PROBLEMS. Please ffs just read what I was responding to. He wrote why TvP was changing from P favored to T favored, I said that his reasons didn't hold up. I don't believe in these win rates I think the majority of the system data is inflated due to the nature that TLPD accumulates it's data, the skill difference will be quite large. And in addition look at what Protoss has to offer in Korea among the top tier of players. What have they done recently and what have their Terran equivalents won? It's not due to imbalance it's due to a difference in player skill that has never really been examined and cannot be quantified into little graphs that come up every month. Oh look, it's the usual "Terran players are just better". every time i see that post i just laugh, "guys terran win rates are just high cause u know terrans are just the best players duah" Prove me wrong hot shot? Besides are you really crying over 52-48 LOL. Please enlighten me as to how my assessment was wrong though really.
where was i whining about imbalance? I'm just saying its stupid to say that the only reason terran wins is because they're players are just better. if anyone is crying imbalance its you. Its impossible to prove whether a certain race of players are better and its just plain stupid to even bring that up when talking about balance.
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On January 03 2012 01:49 Badfatpanda wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 00:56 laharl23 wrote:On January 03 2012 00:51 ZenithM wrote:On January 02 2012 23:39 Badfatpanda wrote:On January 02 2012 23:00 ZenithM wrote:On January 02 2012 22:47 Badfatpanda wrote:On January 02 2012 20:15 ToastieNL wrote:
TvP is likely changing because
A- people learned to aim with smaller EMP
B- Skymehci s being developped and P needs to adapt
C- The core problem of the matchup (Colossi strong gateway weak) hasn't been attacked
D- Terran goes 2 engi bay faster than 2 forges for P
What? these are from professional matches. Skymech hasn't been seen being used other than here and there in a random bo3 since beta against protoss. People aren't learning to aim with EMP any more than 3 months ago, they've just been getting more ghosts. The core problem of the matchup is warpgate remax and zealots ability to tank damage for Protoss AOE units so well. And Terran getting ebays earlier than Protoss STILL end up with Protoss hitting 3/3 first because of chronoboost. Come on man. So, if there are only problems coming from Protoss OPness, how do you explain the even winrate? Better, Terran is actually ahead. My only problem with Terran is the strength of their one base play because of minerals oversaturation with mules. This is really problematic, design wise. Why would they be allowed to have 25% more income on one base than Protoss or Zerg (you saturate with roughly 16-20 SCV and a MULE mines like 4 SCVs so it's literally 20-25% more mining)? It's gigantic and emphasizes all-in play, because of the momentum you gain over the over races. The rest I'm ready to acknowledge everything you want, from "chargelots a-move boohoohoo OP, I must stutter step and it's hard " to "mech is so bad, why can't I go mech even though Protoss can't go stargate either :'(". But I'd like the one base terran imbalance (in my humble opinion) to be dealt with, first. Then, nerf Protoss to the ground if you want. I DIDN'T SAY THERE WERE ONLY PROBLEMS. Please ffs just read what I was responding to. He wrote why TvP was changing from P favored to T favored, I said that his reasons didn't hold up. I don't believe in these win rates I think the majority of the system data is inflated due to the nature that TLPD accumulates it's data, the skill difference will be quite large. And in addition look at what Protoss has to offer in Korea among the top tier of players. What have they done recently and what have their Terran equivalents won? It's not due to imbalance it's due to a difference in player skill that has never really been examined and cannot be quantified into little graphs that come up every month. Oh look, it's the usual "Terran players are just better". every time i see that post i just laugh, "guys terran win rates are just high cause u know terrans are just the best players duah" Prove me wrong hot shot? Besides are you really crying over 52-48 LOL. Please enlighten me as to how my assessment was wrong though really.
You were the one to claim that Terran players are just better. What can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence (RIP Hitchens).
Other people don't have to prove you wrong. You have to put forward evidence that you are right.
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Can't we all just look at this from an objective standpoint briefly?
1. People read into things whatever they personally would like to see. Terran success is because Terran's are skilled. Protoss success is imbalance.
2. The individual with a highly subjective and quite generally wrong opinion is always right, and need not evidence himself to people who are too plainly stupid to understand his higher level of thinking inspired by the unjust experiences he has suffered.
3. People subscribe to mob mentality. If enough people say something that is inherently false is actually true, then it becomes true.
That is what we can get from these graphs. These graphs are actually TL's Bible.
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On January 03 2012 02:04 laharl23 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 01:49 Badfatpanda wrote:On January 03 2012 00:56 laharl23 wrote:On January 03 2012 00:51 ZenithM wrote:On January 02 2012 23:39 Badfatpanda wrote:On January 02 2012 23:00 ZenithM wrote:On January 02 2012 22:47 Badfatpanda wrote:On January 02 2012 20:15 ToastieNL wrote:
TvP is likely changing because
A- people learned to aim with smaller EMP
B- Skymehci s being developped and P needs to adapt
C- The core problem of the matchup (Colossi strong gateway weak) hasn't been attacked
D- Terran goes 2 engi bay faster than 2 forges for P
What? these are from professional matches. Skymech hasn't been seen being used other than here and there in a random bo3 since beta against protoss. People aren't learning to aim with EMP any more than 3 months ago, they've just been getting more ghosts. The core problem of the matchup is warpgate remax and zealots ability to tank damage for Protoss AOE units so well. And Terran getting ebays earlier than Protoss STILL end up with Protoss hitting 3/3 first because of chronoboost. Come on man. So, if there are only problems coming from Protoss OPness, how do you explain the even winrate? Better, Terran is actually ahead. My only problem with Terran is the strength of their one base play because of minerals oversaturation with mules. This is really problematic, design wise. Why would they be allowed to have 25% more income on one base than Protoss or Zerg (you saturate with roughly 16-20 SCV and a MULE mines like 4 SCVs so it's literally 20-25% more mining)? It's gigantic and emphasizes all-in play, because of the momentum you gain over the over races. The rest I'm ready to acknowledge everything you want, from "chargelots a-move boohoohoo OP, I must stutter step and it's hard " to "mech is so bad, why can't I go mech even though Protoss can't go stargate either :'(". But I'd like the one base terran imbalance (in my humble opinion) to be dealt with, first. Then, nerf Protoss to the ground if you want. I DIDN'T SAY THERE WERE ONLY PROBLEMS. Please ffs just read what I was responding to. He wrote why TvP was changing from P favored to T favored, I said that his reasons didn't hold up. I don't believe in these win rates I think the majority of the system data is inflated due to the nature that TLPD accumulates it's data, the skill difference will be quite large. And in addition look at what Protoss has to offer in Korea among the top tier of players. What have they done recently and what have their Terran equivalents won? It's not due to imbalance it's due to a difference in player skill that has never really been examined and cannot be quantified into little graphs that come up every month. Oh look, it's the usual "Terran players are just better". every time i see that post i just laugh, "guys terran win rates are just high cause u know terrans are just the best players duah" Prove me wrong hot shot? Besides are you really crying over 52-48 LOL. Please enlighten me as to how my assessment was wrong though really. where was i whining about imbalance? I'm just saying its stupid to say that the only reason terran wins is because they're players are just better. if anyone is crying imbalance its you. Its impossible to prove whether a certain race of players are better and its just plain stupid to even bring that up when talking about balance.
I'm not crying imbalance, ffs I play random, the only racial affiliation I have comes up when people completely misjudge a matchup. But here's as much proof as I can put forward.
We're using these TLPD graphs to gather arguments from. Specifically the Korean W/R graph, as international has little to do with anything as the skill disparity is larger. So, by assuming these to have value, so does the Korean TLPD database. Now we can bring the TLPD ELO into the argument seeing as it is derived from the same games that the graphs are drawn from. Let's examine the amount of Terran players above 2100 ELO by the TLPD's system. We come up with 15, now this is solely Koreans and the majority of gameplay stems from the GSL, I believe 100% of the data stems from offline events as well, so lag and such isn't a factor. Take a look at how many Protoss cross the 2100 mark.
6
Take a look at the win ratios of top Korean Terrans. The large majority are well above 50% as a whole and weak in 1 variable matchup. Now examine the winrates of those Protoss above the 2100 ELO rating, they generally have MUCH lower avg winrates, yet again their weak matchup fluctuates.
As to the reason I chose 2100 as a reference point, many of the players below 2100 have fallen inactive, and the players above 2100 rating for all races are easily recognizable as very prolific and having great runs in the GSL Code A/S. What I would like to know, and I would hypothesize it being true, is if this trend continues to follow a similar ratio throughout the entire index, only accounting for players still active as of December where these statistics were gathered from.
Now go ahead, strawman this again, I know you will.
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Alright Terrans, bring on the excuses... what's it gonna be this time?
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I feel bad for TvZ. T_T
It's never been Zerg favored since the beginning.
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Hahahahhaahha
Vindication. Still TvP is pretty watchable these days so I don't care quite as much as I did a few months ago. Then again I'm more jaded than I was a few months ago.
edit: Someone really needs to make a best of last month's terran bitch thread. Who knows maybe they'll revive the "I'm sub gm and terran is so /difficult/." Though all in all as long as tournaments look competitive what's a few %. I'll take EG's signing of JYP as a sign they feel pretty positive about the overall SoTG.
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Some like to disreguard the valitity of these graphs, but protoss has been on the bottom for most of the year, and when protoss was on top it was not even by 2%. Terran has been on top the entire time. Sc2 balance is pretty damn good overall. However, the fact that there is not more movement of the races (all taking turns at the top and bottom) in terms of winrates is a bad sign.
While any one month can be pointed out as a fluke, or a bad representation, I don't beleive you can apply that thinking to a year of data. Also, while the overall winrates may look good I think the biggest hurdle yet to be overcome is the balance at different phases of the game.
For example, I believe some races are heavily favored in the late game of certain matches. TvZ seems like the timing of Terran's push when it's a 2base vs 2base scenario is game decicding on most maps. Terran is probably slightly favored in TvZ until after the 2base vs 2base phase. If that timing fails to do signifigant damage, Zerg is favoered. A similiar scernario plays out in TvP.
PvZ seems to be perhaps the most back and forth matchup, giving both players great oppurtunity to "outplay" thier opponent in the mid game. But in a very close/even game, if protoss isn't able to do signifigant damage to zerg before hive tech is well into play, I feel zerg is favored.
This is not an ideal scenario, what we all really want is the game to be perfectly balanced in all phases (early/mid/late) and for there not to be situations where one race has to predict the opponents build choices, or aggression timing in order to not fall behind. A rough example would be protoss defending the 1/1/1, for a while it seemed like protoss had the choice to either blind (or with very limited intel) counter it, because it requires pretty specific responses to defend. But the builds to defend 1/1/1 were very weak against many standard terran plays.
People should read a lot in to these graphs. We have a lot of data over a long period of time, and the data indicates that Sc2 has decent balance. There are just a few very small imbalances in specific phases of some matchups, and slight problems overall racial dominance. These slight imbalances are only expressed at the highest levels, if you're not in GM, how well you play will decide the game, not balance.
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On January 03 2012 02:50 K3Nyy wrote:
I feel bad for TvZ. T_T
It's never been Zerg favored since the beginning.
but it hasnt been too bad either.
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EPT
