• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 08:35
CET 14:35
KST 22:35
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival13TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting12[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3
Community News
Starcraft, SC2, HoTS, WC3, returning to Blizzcon!13$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship4[BSL21] RO32 Group Stage3Weekly Cups (Oct 26-Nov 2): Liquid, Clem, Solar win; LAN in Philly2Weekly Cups (Oct 20-26): MaxPax, Clem, Creator win9
StarCraft 2
General
Starcraft, SC2, HoTS, WC3, returning to Blizzcon! RotterdaM "Serral is the GOAT, and it's not close" Weekly Cups (Oct 20-26): MaxPax, Clem, Creator win 5.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8) TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting
Tourneys
Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) $3,500 WardiTV Korean Royale S4
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened Mutation # 496 Endless Infection Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ SnOw's ASL S20 Finals Review [BSL21] RO32 Group Stage Practice Partners (Official) [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions
Tourneys
BSL21 Open Qualifiers Week & CONFIRM PARTICIPATION [ASL20] Grand Finals Small VOD Thread 2.0 The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Current Meta How to stay on top of macro? PvZ map balance Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Dawn of War IV Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread Dating: How's your luck?
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Why we need SC3
Hildegard
Career Paths and Skills for …
TrAiDoS
Reality "theory" prov…
perfectspheres
Our Last Hope in th…
KrillinFromwales
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1603 users

TLPD Winrate Charts: December - Page 6

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 4 5 6 7 8 18 Next All
prOpVikingBB2
Profile Joined January 2011
Sweden273 Posts
January 02 2012 16:04 GMT
#101
On January 03 2012 01:03 Talack wrote:
I would really like to know the win ratio of any TvP game that goes over 20-25 minutes.



Yea.
I wondered why the baseball was getting bigger, then it hit me.
MurDeRsc2
Profile Joined May 2010
133 Posts
January 02 2012 16:04 GMT
#102
I think there's a general lack of quality protoss... personally. Even the better protoss seem to have poor mechanics.
Aunvilgod
Profile Joined December 2011
2653 Posts
January 02 2012 16:04 GMT
#103
As it looks now there´s really no need to buff toss or zerg, blizz should just nerv ghosts a bit more. A little buff for Ultras would be okay too.
ilovegroov | Blizzards mapmaker(s?) suck ass | #1 Protoss hater
SeaSwift
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Scotland4486 Posts
January 02 2012 16:05 GMT
#104
On January 03 2012 00:59 StarcraftNerd1547 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2012 00:56 laharl23 wrote:
On January 03 2012 00:51 ZenithM wrote:
On January 02 2012 23:39 Badfatpanda wrote:
On January 02 2012 23:00 ZenithM wrote:
On January 02 2012 22:47 Badfatpanda wrote:
On January 02 2012 20:15 ToastieNL wrote:
TvP is likely changing because
A- people learned to aim with smaller EMP
B- Skymehci s being developped and P needs to adapt
C- The core problem of the matchup (Colossi strong gateway weak) hasn't been attacked
D- Terran goes 2 engi bay faster than 2 forges for P


What? these are from professional matches.
Skymech hasn't been seen being used other than here and there in a random bo3 since beta against protoss.
People aren't learning to aim with EMP any more than 3 months ago, they've just been getting more ghosts.
The core problem of the matchup is warpgate remax and zealots ability to tank damage for Protoss AOE units so well.
And Terran getting ebays earlier than Protoss STILL end up with Protoss hitting 3/3 first because of chronoboost.

Come on man.


So, if there are only problems coming from Protoss OPness, how do you explain the even winrate? Better, Terran is actually ahead.

My only problem with Terran is the strength of their one base play because of minerals oversaturation with mules. This is really problematic, design wise. Why would they be allowed to have 25% more income on one base than Protoss or Zerg (you saturate with roughly 16-20 SCV and a MULE mines like 4 SCVs so it's literally 20-25% more mining)? It's gigantic and emphasizes all-in play, because of the momentum you gain over the over races.

The rest I'm ready to acknowledge everything you want, from "chargelots a-move boohoohoo OP, I must stutter step and it's hard " to "mech is so bad, why can't I go mech even though Protoss can't go stargate either :'(".
But I'd like the one base terran imbalance (in my humble opinion) to be dealt with, first. Then, nerf Protoss to the ground if you want.


I DIDN'T SAY THERE WERE ONLY PROBLEMS. Please ffs just read what I was responding to. He wrote why TvP was changing from P favored to T favored, I said that his reasons didn't hold up. I don't believe in these win rates I think the majority of the system data is inflated due to the nature that TLPD accumulates it's data, the skill difference will be quite large. And in addition look at what Protoss has to offer in Korea among the top tier of players. What have they done recently and what have their Terran equivalents won?

It's not due to imbalance it's due to a difference in player skill that has never really been examined and cannot be quantified into little graphs that come up every month.


Oh look, it's the usual "Terran players are just better".


every time i see that post i just laugh, "guys terran win rates are just high cause u know terrans are just the best players duah"


Oh, look its the usual i make mass stalker, my opponent made marauders. Me mad now.


Well, now that the thread is going to devolve into flaming, I'm away.

Spouting unit counters doesn't make you correct.
wklbishop
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1286 Posts
January 02 2012 16:05 GMT
#105
This is weird how TvP is at the win rate it is at for Korea considering the fact that the GSL is actively trying to favor protoss over terran to even the distribution with the maps and all.

And I could say the same, though to a lesser extent in regards to PvZ.
Gameplay > Personality
BoB_KiLLeR
Profile Joined September 2010
Spain620 Posts
January 02 2012 16:06 GMT
#106
Looks pretty good, only TvP seems to be a slighty imbalanced.
Ravnemesteren
Profile Joined May 2011
224 Posts
January 02 2012 16:07 GMT
#107
Its annoying to see differences in Korea and the international scene. Personally I think the game should be balanced for the highest level, so you look at the korean chart for valuable data. But at Blizzcon the balance panel stated that it was okay that x race was good on y server, because it was the other way around on another server.

Thanks for making these charts. They are really interesting to look at, and probably the only proper thing you can use in a balance debate. Its also fun to see people try to brush of the data when their race is winning way too much.

windsupernova
Profile Joined October 2010
Mexico5280 Posts
January 02 2012 16:13 GMT
#108
Wait, why are people whinning? Even the korean graph has been hovering at 50% for all year.....

PvZ seem to be the ¨worst¨ MU and even its within acceptable limits. Dunno why people are acting as if we were seeing 90% WR.

sigh
"Its easy, just trust your CPU".-Boxer on being good at games
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
January 02 2012 16:14 GMT
#109
On January 03 2012 00:59 StarcraftNerd1547 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2012 00:56 laharl23 wrote:
On January 03 2012 00:51 ZenithM wrote:
On January 02 2012 23:39 Badfatpanda wrote:
On January 02 2012 23:00 ZenithM wrote:
On January 02 2012 22:47 Badfatpanda wrote:
On January 02 2012 20:15 ToastieNL wrote:
TvP is likely changing because
A- people learned to aim with smaller EMP
B- Skymehci s being developped and P needs to adapt
C- The core problem of the matchup (Colossi strong gateway weak) hasn't been attacked
D- Terran goes 2 engi bay faster than 2 forges for P


What? these are from professional matches.
Skymech hasn't been seen being used other than here and there in a random bo3 since beta against protoss.
People aren't learning to aim with EMP any more than 3 months ago, they've just been getting more ghosts.
The core problem of the matchup is warpgate remax and zealots ability to tank damage for Protoss AOE units so well.
And Terran getting ebays earlier than Protoss STILL end up with Protoss hitting 3/3 first because of chronoboost.

Come on man.


So, if there are only problems coming from Protoss OPness, how do you explain the even winrate? Better, Terran is actually ahead.

My only problem with Terran is the strength of their one base play because of minerals oversaturation with mules. This is really problematic, design wise. Why would they be allowed to have 25% more income on one base than Protoss or Zerg (you saturate with roughly 16-20 SCV and a MULE mines like 4 SCVs so it's literally 20-25% more mining)? It's gigantic and emphasizes all-in play, because of the momentum you gain over the over races.

The rest I'm ready to acknowledge everything you want, from "chargelots a-move boohoohoo OP, I must stutter step and it's hard " to "mech is so bad, why can't I go mech even though Protoss can't go stargate either :'(".
But I'd like the one base terran imbalance (in my humble opinion) to be dealt with, first. Then, nerf Protoss to the ground if you want.


I DIDN'T SAY THERE WERE ONLY PROBLEMS. Please ffs just read what I was responding to. He wrote why TvP was changing from P favored to T favored, I said that his reasons didn't hold up. I don't believe in these win rates I think the majority of the system data is inflated due to the nature that TLPD accumulates it's data, the skill difference will be quite large. And in addition look at what Protoss has to offer in Korea among the top tier of players. What have they done recently and what have their Terran equivalents won?

It's not due to imbalance it's due to a difference in player skill that has never really been examined and cannot be quantified into little graphs that come up every month.


Oh look, it's the usual "Terran players are just better".


every time i see that post i just laugh, "guys terran win rates are just high cause u know terrans are just the best players duah"


Oh, look its the usual i make mass stalker, my opponent made marauders. Me mad now.


Uh...what?
prOpVikingBB2
Profile Joined January 2011
Sweden273 Posts
January 02 2012 16:16 GMT
#110
On January 03 2012 01:14 ZenithM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2012 00:59 StarcraftNerd1547 wrote:
On January 03 2012 00:56 laharl23 wrote:
On January 03 2012 00:51 ZenithM wrote:
On January 02 2012 23:39 Badfatpanda wrote:
On January 02 2012 23:00 ZenithM wrote:
On January 02 2012 22:47 Badfatpanda wrote:
On January 02 2012 20:15 ToastieNL wrote:
TvP is likely changing because
A- people learned to aim with smaller EMP
B- Skymehci s being developped and P needs to adapt
C- The core problem of the matchup (Colossi strong gateway weak) hasn't been attacked
D- Terran goes 2 engi bay faster than 2 forges for P


What? these are from professional matches.
Skymech hasn't been seen being used other than here and there in a random bo3 since beta against protoss.
People aren't learning to aim with EMP any more than 3 months ago, they've just been getting more ghosts.
The core problem of the matchup is warpgate remax and zealots ability to tank damage for Protoss AOE units so well.
And Terran getting ebays earlier than Protoss STILL end up with Protoss hitting 3/3 first because of chronoboost.

Come on man.


So, if there are only problems coming from Protoss OPness, how do you explain the even winrate? Better, Terran is actually ahead.

My only problem with Terran is the strength of their one base play because of minerals oversaturation with mules. This is really problematic, design wise. Why would they be allowed to have 25% more income on one base than Protoss or Zerg (you saturate with roughly 16-20 SCV and a MULE mines like 4 SCVs so it's literally 20-25% more mining)? It's gigantic and emphasizes all-in play, because of the momentum you gain over the over races.

The rest I'm ready to acknowledge everything you want, from "chargelots a-move boohoohoo OP, I must stutter step and it's hard " to "mech is so bad, why can't I go mech even though Protoss can't go stargate either :'(".
But I'd like the one base terran imbalance (in my humble opinion) to be dealt with, first. Then, nerf Protoss to the ground if you want.


I DIDN'T SAY THERE WERE ONLY PROBLEMS. Please ffs just read what I was responding to. He wrote why TvP was changing from P favored to T favored, I said that his reasons didn't hold up. I don't believe in these win rates I think the majority of the system data is inflated due to the nature that TLPD accumulates it's data, the skill difference will be quite large. And in addition look at what Protoss has to offer in Korea among the top tier of players. What have they done recently and what have their Terran equivalents won?

It's not due to imbalance it's due to a difference in player skill that has never really been examined and cannot be quantified into little graphs that come up every month.


Oh look, it's the usual "Terran players are just better".


every time i see that post i just laugh, "guys terran win rates are just high cause u know terrans are just the best players duah"


Oh, look its the usual i make mass stalker, my opponent made marauders. Me mad now.


Uh...what?


Yes! YOu fell for the troll.

User was temp banned for this post.
I wondered why the baseball was getting bigger, then it hit me.
Badfatpanda
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States9719 Posts
January 02 2012 16:49 GMT
#111
On January 03 2012 00:56 laharl23 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2012 00:51 ZenithM wrote:
On January 02 2012 23:39 Badfatpanda wrote:
On January 02 2012 23:00 ZenithM wrote:
On January 02 2012 22:47 Badfatpanda wrote:
On January 02 2012 20:15 ToastieNL wrote:
TvP is likely changing because
A- people learned to aim with smaller EMP
B- Skymehci s being developped and P needs to adapt
C- The core problem of the matchup (Colossi strong gateway weak) hasn't been attacked
D- Terran goes 2 engi bay faster than 2 forges for P


What? these are from professional matches.
Skymech hasn't been seen being used other than here and there in a random bo3 since beta against protoss.
People aren't learning to aim with EMP any more than 3 months ago, they've just been getting more ghosts.
The core problem of the matchup is warpgate remax and zealots ability to tank damage for Protoss AOE units so well.
And Terran getting ebays earlier than Protoss STILL end up with Protoss hitting 3/3 first because of chronoboost.

Come on man.


So, if there are only problems coming from Protoss OPness, how do you explain the even winrate? Better, Terran is actually ahead.

My only problem with Terran is the strength of their one base play because of minerals oversaturation with mules. This is really problematic, design wise. Why would they be allowed to have 25% more income on one base than Protoss or Zerg (you saturate with roughly 16-20 SCV and a MULE mines like 4 SCVs so it's literally 20-25% more mining)? It's gigantic and emphasizes all-in play, because of the momentum you gain over the over races.

The rest I'm ready to acknowledge everything you want, from "chargelots a-move boohoohoo OP, I must stutter step and it's hard " to "mech is so bad, why can't I go mech even though Protoss can't go stargate either :'(".
But I'd like the one base terran imbalance (in my humble opinion) to be dealt with, first. Then, nerf Protoss to the ground if you want.


I DIDN'T SAY THERE WERE ONLY PROBLEMS. Please ffs just read what I was responding to. He wrote why TvP was changing from P favored to T favored, I said that his reasons didn't hold up. I don't believe in these win rates I think the majority of the system data is inflated due to the nature that TLPD accumulates it's data, the skill difference will be quite large. And in addition look at what Protoss has to offer in Korea among the top tier of players. What have they done recently and what have their Terran equivalents won?

It's not due to imbalance it's due to a difference in player skill that has never really been examined and cannot be quantified into little graphs that come up every month.


Oh look, it's the usual "Terran players are just better".


every time i see that post i just laugh, "guys terran win rates are just high cause u know terrans are just the best players duah"


Prove me wrong hot shot? Besides are you really crying over 52-48 LOL. Please enlighten me as to how my assessment was wrong though really.
Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy. -Beethoven | Mech isn't a build, it's a way of life. -MajOr | Charlie.Sheen: "What is sarcastic, kids who have no courage to fight?" | #TerranPride #yolo #swag -Naama after 2-0'ing MC at HSC VI
laharl23
Profile Joined February 2011
United States582 Posts
January 02 2012 17:04 GMT
#112
On January 03 2012 01:49 Badfatpanda wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2012 00:56 laharl23 wrote:
On January 03 2012 00:51 ZenithM wrote:
On January 02 2012 23:39 Badfatpanda wrote:
On January 02 2012 23:00 ZenithM wrote:
On January 02 2012 22:47 Badfatpanda wrote:
On January 02 2012 20:15 ToastieNL wrote:
TvP is likely changing because
A- people learned to aim with smaller EMP
B- Skymehci s being developped and P needs to adapt
C- The core problem of the matchup (Colossi strong gateway weak) hasn't been attacked
D- Terran goes 2 engi bay faster than 2 forges for P


What? these are from professional matches.
Skymech hasn't been seen being used other than here and there in a random bo3 since beta against protoss.
People aren't learning to aim with EMP any more than 3 months ago, they've just been getting more ghosts.
The core problem of the matchup is warpgate remax and zealots ability to tank damage for Protoss AOE units so well.
And Terran getting ebays earlier than Protoss STILL end up with Protoss hitting 3/3 first because of chronoboost.

Come on man.


So, if there are only problems coming from Protoss OPness, how do you explain the even winrate? Better, Terran is actually ahead.

My only problem with Terran is the strength of their one base play because of minerals oversaturation with mules. This is really problematic, design wise. Why would they be allowed to have 25% more income on one base than Protoss or Zerg (you saturate with roughly 16-20 SCV and a MULE mines like 4 SCVs so it's literally 20-25% more mining)? It's gigantic and emphasizes all-in play, because of the momentum you gain over the over races.

The rest I'm ready to acknowledge everything you want, from "chargelots a-move boohoohoo OP, I must stutter step and it's hard " to "mech is so bad, why can't I go mech even though Protoss can't go stargate either :'(".
But I'd like the one base terran imbalance (in my humble opinion) to be dealt with, first. Then, nerf Protoss to the ground if you want.


I DIDN'T SAY THERE WERE ONLY PROBLEMS. Please ffs just read what I was responding to. He wrote why TvP was changing from P favored to T favored, I said that his reasons didn't hold up. I don't believe in these win rates I think the majority of the system data is inflated due to the nature that TLPD accumulates it's data, the skill difference will be quite large. And in addition look at what Protoss has to offer in Korea among the top tier of players. What have they done recently and what have their Terran equivalents won?

It's not due to imbalance it's due to a difference in player skill that has never really been examined and cannot be quantified into little graphs that come up every month.


Oh look, it's the usual "Terran players are just better".


every time i see that post i just laugh, "guys terran win rates are just high cause u know terrans are just the best players duah"


Prove me wrong hot shot? Besides are you really crying over 52-48 LOL. Please enlighten me as to how my assessment was wrong though really.


where was i whining about imbalance? I'm just saying its stupid to say that the only reason terran wins is because they're players are just better. if anyone is crying imbalance its you. Its impossible to prove whether a certain race of players are better and its just plain stupid to even bring that up when talking about balance.
SeaSwift
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Scotland4486 Posts
January 02 2012 17:08 GMT
#113
On January 03 2012 01:49 Badfatpanda wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2012 00:56 laharl23 wrote:
On January 03 2012 00:51 ZenithM wrote:
On January 02 2012 23:39 Badfatpanda wrote:
On January 02 2012 23:00 ZenithM wrote:
On January 02 2012 22:47 Badfatpanda wrote:
On January 02 2012 20:15 ToastieNL wrote:
TvP is likely changing because
A- people learned to aim with smaller EMP
B- Skymehci s being developped and P needs to adapt
C- The core problem of the matchup (Colossi strong gateway weak) hasn't been attacked
D- Terran goes 2 engi bay faster than 2 forges for P


What? these are from professional matches.
Skymech hasn't been seen being used other than here and there in a random bo3 since beta against protoss.
People aren't learning to aim with EMP any more than 3 months ago, they've just been getting more ghosts.
The core problem of the matchup is warpgate remax and zealots ability to tank damage for Protoss AOE units so well.
And Terran getting ebays earlier than Protoss STILL end up with Protoss hitting 3/3 first because of chronoboost.

Come on man.


So, if there are only problems coming from Protoss OPness, how do you explain the even winrate? Better, Terran is actually ahead.

My only problem with Terran is the strength of their one base play because of minerals oversaturation with mules. This is really problematic, design wise. Why would they be allowed to have 25% more income on one base than Protoss or Zerg (you saturate with roughly 16-20 SCV and a MULE mines like 4 SCVs so it's literally 20-25% more mining)? It's gigantic and emphasizes all-in play, because of the momentum you gain over the over races.

The rest I'm ready to acknowledge everything you want, from "chargelots a-move boohoohoo OP, I must stutter step and it's hard " to "mech is so bad, why can't I go mech even though Protoss can't go stargate either :'(".
But I'd like the one base terran imbalance (in my humble opinion) to be dealt with, first. Then, nerf Protoss to the ground if you want.


I DIDN'T SAY THERE WERE ONLY PROBLEMS. Please ffs just read what I was responding to. He wrote why TvP was changing from P favored to T favored, I said that his reasons didn't hold up. I don't believe in these win rates I think the majority of the system data is inflated due to the nature that TLPD accumulates it's data, the skill difference will be quite large. And in addition look at what Protoss has to offer in Korea among the top tier of players. What have they done recently and what have their Terran equivalents won?

It's not due to imbalance it's due to a difference in player skill that has never really been examined and cannot be quantified into little graphs that come up every month.


Oh look, it's the usual "Terran players are just better".


every time i see that post i just laugh, "guys terran win rates are just high cause u know terrans are just the best players duah"


Prove me wrong hot shot? Besides are you really crying over 52-48 LOL. Please enlighten me as to how my assessment was wrong though really.


You were the one to claim that Terran players are just better. What can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence (RIP Hitchens).

Other people don't have to prove you wrong. You have to put forward evidence that you are right.
Tehweenus
Profile Joined December 2011
United States27 Posts
January 02 2012 17:31 GMT
#114
Can't we all just look at this from an objective standpoint briefly?

1. People read into things whatever they personally would like to see. Terran success is because Terran's are skilled. Protoss success is imbalance.

2. The individual with a highly subjective and quite generally wrong opinion is always right, and need not evidence himself to people who are too plainly stupid to understand his higher level of thinking inspired by the unjust experiences he has suffered.

3. People subscribe to mob mentality. If enough people say something that is inherently false is actually true, then it becomes true.

That is what we can get from these graphs. These graphs are actually TL's Bible.
Badfatpanda
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States9719 Posts
January 02 2012 17:37 GMT
#115
On January 03 2012 02:04 laharl23 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2012 01:49 Badfatpanda wrote:
On January 03 2012 00:56 laharl23 wrote:
On January 03 2012 00:51 ZenithM wrote:
On January 02 2012 23:39 Badfatpanda wrote:
On January 02 2012 23:00 ZenithM wrote:
On January 02 2012 22:47 Badfatpanda wrote:
On January 02 2012 20:15 ToastieNL wrote:
TvP is likely changing because
A- people learned to aim with smaller EMP
B- Skymehci s being developped and P needs to adapt
C- The core problem of the matchup (Colossi strong gateway weak) hasn't been attacked
D- Terran goes 2 engi bay faster than 2 forges for P


What? these are from professional matches.
Skymech hasn't been seen being used other than here and there in a random bo3 since beta against protoss.
People aren't learning to aim with EMP any more than 3 months ago, they've just been getting more ghosts.
The core problem of the matchup is warpgate remax and zealots ability to tank damage for Protoss AOE units so well.
And Terran getting ebays earlier than Protoss STILL end up with Protoss hitting 3/3 first because of chronoboost.

Come on man.


So, if there are only problems coming from Protoss OPness, how do you explain the even winrate? Better, Terran is actually ahead.

My only problem with Terran is the strength of their one base play because of minerals oversaturation with mules. This is really problematic, design wise. Why would they be allowed to have 25% more income on one base than Protoss or Zerg (you saturate with roughly 16-20 SCV and a MULE mines like 4 SCVs so it's literally 20-25% more mining)? It's gigantic and emphasizes all-in play, because of the momentum you gain over the over races.

The rest I'm ready to acknowledge everything you want, from "chargelots a-move boohoohoo OP, I must stutter step and it's hard " to "mech is so bad, why can't I go mech even though Protoss can't go stargate either :'(".
But I'd like the one base terran imbalance (in my humble opinion) to be dealt with, first. Then, nerf Protoss to the ground if you want.


I DIDN'T SAY THERE WERE ONLY PROBLEMS. Please ffs just read what I was responding to. He wrote why TvP was changing from P favored to T favored, I said that his reasons didn't hold up. I don't believe in these win rates I think the majority of the system data is inflated due to the nature that TLPD accumulates it's data, the skill difference will be quite large. And in addition look at what Protoss has to offer in Korea among the top tier of players. What have they done recently and what have their Terran equivalents won?

It's not due to imbalance it's due to a difference in player skill that has never really been examined and cannot be quantified into little graphs that come up every month.


Oh look, it's the usual "Terran players are just better".


every time i see that post i just laugh, "guys terran win rates are just high cause u know terrans are just the best players duah"


Prove me wrong hot shot? Besides are you really crying over 52-48 LOL. Please enlighten me as to how my assessment was wrong though really.


where was i whining about imbalance? I'm just saying its stupid to say that the only reason terran wins is because they're players are just better. if anyone is crying imbalance its you. Its impossible to prove whether a certain race of players are better and its just plain stupid to even bring that up when talking about balance.


I'm not crying imbalance, ffs I play random, the only racial affiliation I have comes up when people completely misjudge a matchup. But here's as much proof as I can put forward.

We're using these TLPD graphs to gather arguments from. Specifically the Korean W/R graph, as international has little to do with anything as the skill disparity is larger. So, by assuming these to have value, so does the Korean TLPD database. Now we can bring the TLPD ELO into the argument seeing as it is derived from the same games that the graphs are drawn from. Let's examine the amount of Terran players above 2100 ELO by the TLPD's system. We come up with 15, now this is solely Koreans and the majority of gameplay stems from the GSL, I believe 100% of the data stems from offline events as well, so lag and such isn't a factor. Take a look at how many Protoss cross the 2100 mark.

6

Take a look at the win ratios of top Korean Terrans. The large majority are well above 50% as a whole and weak in 1 variable matchup. Now examine the winrates of those Protoss above the 2100 ELO rating, they generally have MUCH lower avg winrates, yet again their weak matchup fluctuates.

As to the reason I chose 2100 as a reference point, many of the players below 2100 have fallen inactive, and the players above 2100 rating for all races are easily recognizable as very prolific and having great runs in the GSL Code A/S. What I would like to know, and I would hypothesize it being true, is if this trend continues to follow a similar ratio throughout the entire index, only accounting for players still active as of December where these statistics were gathered from.

Now go ahead, strawman this again, I know you will.
Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy. -Beethoven | Mech isn't a build, it's a way of life. -MajOr | Charlie.Sheen: "What is sarcastic, kids who have no courage to fight?" | #TerranPride #yolo #swag -Naama after 2-0'ing MC at HSC VI
zanmat0
Profile Joined December 2010
188 Posts
January 02 2012 17:48 GMT
#116
Alright Terrans, bring on the excuses... what's it gonna be this time?
K3Nyy
Profile Joined February 2010
United States1961 Posts
January 02 2012 17:50 GMT
#117
I feel bad for TvZ. T_T

It's never been Zerg favored since the beginning.
Sabu113
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States11075 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-02 18:16:44
January 02 2012 17:53 GMT
#118
Hahahahhaahha

Vindication. Still TvP is pretty watchable these days so I don't care quite as much as I did a few months ago. Then again I'm more jaded than I was a few months ago.

edit: Someone really needs to make a best of last month's terran bitch thread. Who knows maybe they'll revive the "I'm sub gm and terran is so /difficult/." Though all in all as long as tournaments look competitive what's a few %. I'll take EG's signing of JYP as a sign they feel pretty positive about the overall SoTG.
Biomine is a drunken chick who is on industrial strength amphetamines and would just grab your dick and jerk it as hard and violently as she could while screaming 'OMG FUCK ME', because she saw it in a Sasha Grey video ...-Wombat_Ni
Reborn8u
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1761 Posts
January 02 2012 17:58 GMT
#119
Some like to disreguard the valitity of these graphs, but protoss has been on the bottom for most of the year, and when protoss was on top it was not even by 2%. Terran has been on top the entire time. Sc2 balance is pretty damn good overall. However, the fact that there is not more movement of the races (all taking turns at the top and bottom) in terms of winrates is a bad sign.

While any one month can be pointed out as a fluke, or a bad representation, I don't beleive you can apply that thinking to a year of data. Also, while the overall winrates may look good I think the biggest hurdle yet to be overcome is the balance at different phases of the game.

For example, I believe some races are heavily favored in the late game of certain matches. TvZ seems like the timing of Terran's push when it's a 2base vs 2base scenario is game decicding on most maps. Terran is probably slightly favored in TvZ until after the 2base vs 2base phase. If that timing fails to do signifigant damage, Zerg is favoered. A similiar scernario plays out in TvP.

PvZ seems to be perhaps the most back and forth matchup, giving both players great oppurtunity to "outplay" thier opponent in the mid game. But in a very close/even game, if protoss isn't able to do signifigant damage to zerg before hive tech is well into play, I feel zerg is favored.

This is not an ideal scenario, what we all really want is the game to be perfectly balanced in all phases (early/mid/late) and for there not to be situations where one race has to predict the opponents build choices, or aggression timing in order to not fall behind. A rough example would be protoss defending the 1/1/1, for a while it seemed like protoss had the choice to either blind (or with very limited intel) counter it, because it requires pretty specific responses to defend. But the builds to defend 1/1/1 were very weak against many standard terran plays.

People should read a lot in to these graphs. We have a lot of data over a long period of time, and the data indicates that Sc2 has decent balance. There are just a few very small imbalances in specific phases of some matchups, and slight problems overall racial dominance. These slight imbalances are only expressed at the highest levels, if you're not in GM, how well you play will decide the game, not balance.
:)
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
January 02 2012 17:58 GMT
#120
On January 03 2012 02:50 K3Nyy wrote:
I feel bad for TvZ. T_T

It's never been Zerg favored since the beginning.

but it hasnt been too bad either.
Prev 1 4 5 6 7 8 18 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 25m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko59
StarCraft: Brood War
Jaedong 2366
GuemChi 2179
Sea 1576
firebathero 493
Pusan 413
Soma 394
Stork 293
Leta 269
Last 248
Hyun 171
[ Show more ]
Light 159
Rush 117
sSak 101
hero 98
Snow 97
Barracks 82
Mong 78
ZerO 59
Backho 58
ToSsGirL 55
Sharp 49
Shine 35
Movie 23
zelot 20
Terrorterran 15
Noble 13
Icarus 12
IntoTheRainbow 9
scan(afreeca) 9
Dota 2
qojqva856
XcaliburYe156
Counter-Strike
x6flipin570
zeus315
edward143
markeloff76
Other Games
singsing2061
B2W.Neo656
DeMusliM339
crisheroes322
Fuzer 211
hiko188
Liquid`LucifroN160
oskar121
XaKoH 120
Mew2King66
ZerO(Twitch)10
QueenE1
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL245
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 10
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 114
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 16
• iopq 5
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV328
League of Legends
• Jankos2919
Upcoming Events
LAN Event
1h 25m
OSC
8h 25m
Replay Cast
9h 25m
OSC
22h 25m
LAN Event
1d 1h
Korean StarCraft League
1d 13h
CranKy Ducklings
1d 20h
LAN Event
2 days
IPSL
2 days
dxtr13 vs OldBoy
Napoleon vs Doodle
BSL 21
2 days
Gosudark vs Kyrie
Gypsy vs Sterling
UltrA vs Radley
Dandy vs Ptak
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
2 days
LAN Event
3 days
IPSL
3 days
JDConan vs WIZARD
WolFix vs Cross
BSL 21
3 days
spx vs rasowy
HBO vs KameZerg
Cross vs Razz
dxtr13 vs ZZZero
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Kung Fu Cup
5 days
Classic vs Solar
herO vs Cure
Reynor vs GuMiho
ByuN vs ShoWTimE
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Solar vs Zoun
MaxPax vs Bunny
Kung Fu Cup
6 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 21 Points
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025

Upcoming

BSL Season 21
SLON Tour Season 2
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
META Madness #9
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.