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On December 24 2011 11:35 KiF1rE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 11:30 KingPaddy wrote:
What exactly are you trying to say?
Mothership is imba? Lol wtf?! Try to win against broodlord+infester without it..
It can be build only one time, I want my broodlords or ultras only one at a time as well? Hmm.. okay.
I don't really understand why you want a one at the time unit as well, if you want it ( I have trouble, understanding your point). If the game is balanced, as it is or as it hopefully will be, when Terran gets the hero Thor, I'm fine with it.
Your rant (as I understand it) just sounds like "every race should be exactly the same!" its more like his rant, that he doesnt want any super units, or every race to have 1 super unit, as he seems its silly that the mothership will be removed, then terran gets a superunit. and the issue is that he also makes a point that the mothership's vortex is awfully strong. personally i would prefer no race to have a superunit, and if its a must that we have 1, why not all 3 races have theirs... I mean seriosly its not like the zerg doesnt already have a superunit, The leviathan, and terran is getting the SP thor with its SP abilities from WoL... Protoss already have the mothership, so why not have a party?
But I can't understand the desire to have a hero unit, just for the sake of having it, if the game is balanced as it is. I, as a protoss, can say, that occasionally the mothership is a good unit, mostly it isn't, but building it isn't such a special ("heroic") feeling, that I feel the urge, to build it more then any other unit, which I feel is useful in taht given scenario.
I don't think it's THE hero, the superunit, which will change the game if I have it, and which is the goal of the protoss race, but as a normal unit, which is useful in a few scenarios, just like ultras or thors are useful in some scenarios. The only things different is, that you can just build one of it, but I don't think it's such a big deal, as long as the game is balanced. Just imagine there wouldn't be a mothership and you could only build one carrier, one BC and one ultra instead. Would it really change the game that much? I don't think so..
I'd be okay with it, if each race has one, or if none race has one, or if one or two races have one as long as the game is balanced, because the "hero units" (at least the mothership) isn't really special, it's just one spellcaster, who could be build more then once in BW.
Claims that nowadays it is imbalanced are kinda stupid, if it's too much to ask that zerg has to split their forces in lategame ZvP, try playing TvZ or PvT without splitting your units....
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On December 24 2011 09:00 mordk wrote:
IMO the mistake goes beyond bringing hero units to SC (which is wrong as well), but in bringing a C&C designer to Starcraft. He has this attitude of "Let's go for this gimmick, yeah this ability would be so cool" "Let's do this really unique thing with this unit, like pulling stuff!" "Hey let's make this HUGE, and AWESOME hero unit that is really really powerful, it would be so cool!" instead of keeping to the simplicity that makes starcraft great. This obsession of his with things being "cool" is not good for starcraft, and I really question Blizzard's decision in bringing him in, I wish they just fired him.
People say this all the time and it hurts my head so much. BW's spells and units were no different, just much harder to use which made them appear to be different. The big difference is the non-unique units (goons vs. non-blink stalkers, BW zerglings vs. SC2 zerglings, BW mutas vs. SC2 mutas) that could be used 50x as effectively by a good player than someone just A-moving.
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On December 24 2011 11:35 KiF1rE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 11:30 KingPaddy wrote:
What exactly are you trying to say?
Mothership is imba? Lol wtf?! Try to win against broodlord+infester without it..
It can be build only one time, I want my broodlords or ultras only one at a time as well? Hmm.. okay.
I don't really understand why you want a one at the time unit as well, if you want it ( I have trouble, understanding your point). If the game is balanced, as it is or as it hopefully will be, when Terran gets the hero Thor, I'm fine with it.
Your rant (as I understand it) just sounds like "every race should be exactly the same!" its more like his rant, that he doesnt want any super units, or every race to have 1 super unit, as he seems its silly that the mothership will be removed, then terran gets a superunit. and the issue is that he also makes a point that the mothership's vortex is awfully strong. personally i would prefer no race to have a superunit, and if its a must that we have 1, why not all 3 races have theirs... I mean seriosly its not like the zerg doesnt already have a superunit, The leviathan, and terran is getting the SP thor with its SP abilities from WoL... Protoss already have the mothership, so why not have a party?
Well it is not like they remove rhe mothership fof no reason... mass recall seems to overlap with it and other gamplay/balancewise reasons only the balance team could give you might play a role.
For the hero thor: thors were kind of planned like that in the beginning and with their current design failing hardcore in their (and also in my) opinion they just try to reverse that.
Furthermore speculating about things in hots just doesnt make a lot of sense. only time/the beta can tell what will be in the game and what will be flushed down the archon toilet.
And about every race getting one: why? starcraft is a game that is completly dependend on the races being different in a lot of aspects. there are reasons why terrans dont have melee units and zerg having larvamechanism. giving each race a hero unit would work the complete other way.
Closing comment abot hero units: i dont see why it should be inappropriate for sc to limit units to 1. all other units are limited as well by supply,cost,buildtime,useability. but the extta limit allows for extra possibilities in unitdesign, as the unit is rather easily balancable (thats why the mothership turns out so well balanced), because it can be given a specific role without the unit needing a lot of downsides because it would be to good if being massed.
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This might have been posted before but I think the only reason Blizzard is keeping the Thor is because of Collector's Edition bonus from WoL. They probably don't want anyone to be mad from buying CE for CE Thor then having it gone on HotS (when likely no one plays WoL anymore which means no more showing off that CE Thor).
Now my solution to Blizzard is to make a new CE version of a unit (The Warhound?) and transfer it to that unit.
They might not keep the Thor in game forever - what if they remove it in LotV? I hope Blizzard figures this out but the easiest way to solve this issue is to transfer the CE to a new unit. Make a CE version of Warhound that CE WoL players will be able to have.
I don't have CE but I can see some players being mad if they no longer have their exclusive unit (I would be too considering the CE Thor does look crazy).
Another way to solve this is to let CE players chose one mercenary version of a unit (like instead of marines, they can pick the war pigs marines).
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On December 24 2011 12:17 Goldfish wrote:
This might have been posted before but I think the only reason Blizzard is keeping the Thor is because of Collector's Edition bonus from WoL. They probably don't want anyone to be mad from buying CE for CE Thor then having it gone on HotS (when likely no one plays WoL anymore which means no more showing off that CE Thor).
Now my solution to Blizzard is to make a new CE version of a unit (The Warhound?) and transfer it to that unit.
They might not keep the Thor in game forever - what if they remove it in LotV? I hope Blizzard figures this out but the easiest way to solve this issue is to transfer the CE to a new unit. Make a CE version of Warhound that CE WoL players will be able to have.
I don't have CE but I can see some players being mad if they no longer have their exclusive unit (I would be too considering the CE Thor does look crazy).
Another way to solve this is to let CE players chose one mercenary version of a unit (like instead of marines, they can pick the war pigs marines).
Honestly... this is bullshit. It is the WoL collectors edition for a reason. in WoL you will still have your thor and in HotS I doubt that the (redisigned) thor will have a different design for people who bought the WoL collectors edition.
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On December 24 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote:
Because Dustin like the idea.
He come from C&C, remember ?
yeah, a lot of people dont remember or choose not to remember that. Nor do they remember that blizz team was fired and a new one was hired, so its not even the same people that made sc1. of course theres no way sc2 is at all the successor of sc1. completely different team and completely different figurehead guy.
I'm not saying DB is bad, Im saying he's SO bad that all of his intended reasons for puytting in shit units like the colossus, for example, are completely superfluous. Go look at his public interview, all the points he makes about units and what to do with them and why are worthless. The current metagame disproves everything he idealized in his interview.
remember that in C&C it devolved into tank wars. basically it came down to who had +1 extra tank and better micro. Where's the C&C pro scene, or a history of it being competitive? What, there isn't anything like that?
Think about how strong carriers and ultralisks and guardians and bcs were in brood war. That was due to the fact that lower tech was weaker in many aspects and that those units were the ultimate end. Now all these units have just as much drawback and crappiness as earlier tech units and mothership and thor were the ultimate end. But there isn't one for zerg.
And think about this. Inherently good changes for the game are being delayed for HoTS. You have to pay to have a game that works. Back to the Tank vs tank wars of C&C; TvT, ZvZ, PvP. tanks vs tanks, raoch vs roach, stalker vs stalker. Even in non mirror match ups, certain units are clearly what you want, and other units are clearly dead end tech. Noone uses hydralisk against terran.
The game isn't "balanced" no matter what people actually say. And hero units are one single defining factor that contributes to imbalance because you have to account for this singular entity upsetting everything when it shows up. I could go on about a mathematical proof that shows how a game can be unbalanced yet appear balanced via win rates, but he gist is that people never get more skill than is enough to beat the other person, so imbalance will be hidden by skill caps that are created by not having more skill than is necessary to win.
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I'm fine with it. I think hero units are cool, and they only provided more entertaining pro matches. I remember huk mothership rushing at mlg... and i remember kiwikaki using mass recalls to beat stephano in IPL... i don't really remember any games being ruined because of motherships. I can only imagine it being the same with the super thor.
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Everytime i face a Protoss getting Mothership it makes my blood boil.
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I cannot wait to see the justification of the sixty dollar tag on HOTS, as opposed to the expansion pricing.
I mean really, you're gonna use the same base game, add in some flashy units that no one will use or regard seriously above platinum league, and scrape up 15 single player missions for the masses.
Hero units have absolutely no place in a skill related game like Sc2. The concept is stupid and caters to the 10-15 year old crowd that loves the bright big things.
I think Blizz is really scared about losing the scrub crowd, you know, the 3 million people that bought sc2 and do not play it any more because they couldn't figure out how to macro. Therefore, their business decision is to "woo" the crowds with their retarded and unnecessary "hero" units.
Despite me playing sc2 to this day, and advancing to diamond league play, I will be keeping my eye on HOTS without pre ordering anything. They need to prove which side they're really on, the scrubs, or the people that genuinely look for new strategies, work on macro, prefer less casters and more micro control in large engagements.
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ideology behind hero unit is wrong, agreed, however pvz lategame would be super imba sans mothership
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without the vortex the zerg deathball: infestor broodlord roach is unapproachable head on as protoss.
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On December 24 2011 12:23 XRaDiiX wrote:
Everytime i face a Protoss getting Mothership it makes my blood boil.
Does it make you BloodThirsty? 
all jokes aside i don't really like the mothership but what ever
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On December 24 2011 12:25 Spicy_Curry wrote:
without the vortex the zerg deathball: infestor broodlord roach is unapproachable head on as protoss.
im really not denying that im really not, im just saying if we know that clearly the game has to be done like this for THIS CURRENT game why not just fix it in the expansion and stop with these horrid hero unit ideas. Make protoss have a unit where they can make 20 mini mother ships to counter this
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On December 24 2011 12:26 ShakAttaK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 12:23 XRaDiiX wrote:
Everytime i face a Protoss getting Mothership it makes my blood boil. Does it make you BloodThirsty? all jokes aside i don't really like the mothership but what ever
hah that legit make me laugh possibly the first time in this thread as it seems i am bad at conveying my thoughts and they are being horribly taken the wrong way. Which I can understand as sometimes its hard for people, specifically myself to convey my exact idea behind things like this.
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There should be a "keep them in the campaign" option
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On December 24 2011 12:21 Humanfails wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote:
Because Dustin like the idea.
He come from C&C, remember ? yeah, a lot of people dont remember or choose not to remember that. Nor do they remember that blizz team was fired and a new one was hired, so its not even the same people that made sc1. of course theres no way sc2 is at all the successor of sc1. completely different team and completely different figurehead guy. I'm not saying DB is bad, Im saying he's SO bad that all of his intended reasons for puytting in shit units like the colossus, for example, are completely superfluous. Go look at his public interview, all the points he makes about units and what to do with them and why are worthless. The current metagame disproves everything he idealized in his interview. remember that in C&C it devolved into tank wars. basically it came down to who had +1 extra tank and better micro. Where's the C&C pro scene, or a history of it being competitive? What, there isn't anything like that? Think about how strong carriers and ultralisks and guardians and bcs were in brood war. That was due to the fact that lower tech was weaker in many aspects and that those units were the ultimate end. Now all these units have just as much drawback and crappiness as earlier tech units and mothership and thor were the ultimate end. But there isn't one for zerg. And think about this. Inherently good changes for the game are being delayed for HoTS. You have to pay to have a game that works. Back to the Tank vs tank wars of C&C; TvT, ZvZ, PvP. tanks vs tanks, raoch vs roach, stalker vs stalker. Even in non mirror match ups, certain units are clearly what you want, and other units are clearly dead end tech. Noone uses hydralisk against terran. The game isn't "balanced" no matter what people actually say. And hero units are one single defining factor that contributes to imbalance because you have to account for this singular entity upsetting everything when it shows up. I could go on about a mathematical proof that shows how a game can be unbalanced yet appear balanced via win rates, but he gist is that people never get more skill than is enough to beat the other person, so imbalance will be hidden by skill caps that are created by not having more skill than is necessary to win.
Tank vs tank in broodwar, muta vs muta in broodwar... bio is useless vs protoss in broodwar, carriers and bcs are useless vs zerg, dark archons are useless vs terran...
Just a bunch of crap in your post. Colossus is in the game because the reaver is broken vs bio.
Low tier units kind of sucked (and not even that is really true...) because you couldnt control them properly.
It's not even funny to argue against such a post as it is just wrong in everything it tells...
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Any hero is bad because they create another deathball syndrome, unless they can design one that is more cost efficient by itself than with its support units.
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On December 24 2011 12:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 12:17 Goldfish wrote:
This might have been posted before but I think the only reason Blizzard is keeping the Thor is because of Collector's Edition bonus from WoL. They probably don't want anyone to be mad from buying CE for CE Thor then having it gone on HotS (when likely no one plays WoL anymore which means no more showing off that CE Thor).
Now my solution to Blizzard is to make a new CE version of a unit (The Warhound?) and transfer it to that unit.
They might not keep the Thor in game forever - what if they remove it in LotV? I hope Blizzard figures this out but the easiest way to solve this issue is to transfer the CE to a new unit. Make a CE version of Warhound that CE WoL players will be able to have.
I don't have CE but I can see some players being mad if they no longer have their exclusive unit (I would be too considering the CE Thor does look crazy).
Another way to solve this is to let CE players chose one mercenary version of a unit (like instead of marines, they can pick the war pigs marines). Honestly... this is bullshit. It is the WoL collectors edition for a reason. in WoL you will still have your thor and in HotS I doubt that the (redisigned) thor will have a different design for people who bought the WoL collectors edition.
How is it BS? Few things:
1. Why no units removed from Terran but from only Zerg and Protoss. Dustin Browder already stated he thought Terran had too much stuff.
2. If they wanted a hero unit, why not just keep the Mothership but remove/revamp Vortex? (Only issue with Vortex is the Archon Toilet still works.) They are already redesigning certain existing units in HotS (Hydralisk gets speed upgrade off creep, Banes can move underground, and of course the Thor is redesigned). Why not just revamp the Mothership a little if they wanted a hero unit?
3. You doubt that based on? In WoW you keep things like pets from every CE (and achievement too but as feats of strength). While yes, it's an MMO, it does show Blizzard doesn't want to make people mad. In SC2 it's assumed you'll keep achievements/portraits too (there is no reason to think not since it's integrated with battle.net rather than SC2 WoL alone). The flag that determines whether you get the CE Thor is based on players having that CE Feats of Strength Achievement.
4. Finally if they remove CE Thor for HotS, this will discourage people from buying the HotS CE version (which will likely because there has been a CE for every WoW expansion and for Diablo III too). How will they entice people to buy the CE version if they don't get the stuff carried over? If you take into account SC, D2, and WC3, the expansion will make the original deserted/obsolete (few people play WC3 RoC for example).
Also I don't confirm that as a fact (Blizzard keeping the Thor only for CE) but just my speculation.
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Mothership, Double-down Thor, BigMac Leviathan?
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On December 24 2011 12:43 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 12:20 Big J wrote:On December 24 2011 12:17 Goldfish wrote:
This might have been posted before but I think the only reason Blizzard is keeping the Thor is because of Collector's Edition bonus from WoL. They probably don't want anyone to be mad from buying CE for CE Thor then having it gone on HotS (when likely no one plays WoL anymore which means no more showing off that CE Thor).
Now my solution to Blizzard is to make a new CE version of a unit (The Warhound?) and transfer it to that unit.
They might not keep the Thor in game forever - what if they remove it in LotV? I hope Blizzard figures this out but the easiest way to solve this issue is to transfer the CE to a new unit. Make a CE version of Warhound that CE WoL players will be able to have.
I don't have CE but I can see some players being mad if they no longer have their exclusive unit (I would be too considering the CE Thor does look crazy).
Another way to solve this is to let CE players chose one mercenary version of a unit (like instead of marines, they can pick the war pigs marines). Honestly... this is bullshit. It is the WoL collectors edition for a reason. in WoL you will still have your thor and in HotS I doubt that the (redisigned) thor will have a different design for people who bought the WoL collectors edition. How is it BS? Few things: 1. Why no units removed from Terran but from only Zerg and Protoss. Dustin Browder already stated he thought Terran had too much stuff. 2. If they wanted a hero unit, why not just keep the Mothership but remove/revamp Vortex? (Only issue with Vortex is the Archon Toilet still works.) They are already redesigning certain existing units in HotS (Hydralisk gets speed upgrade off creep, Banes can move underground, and of course the Thor is redesigned). Why not just revamp the Mothership a little if they wanted a hero unit? 3. You doubt that based on? In WoW you keep things like pets from every CE (and achievement too but as feats of strength). While yes, it's an MMO, it does show Blizzard doesn't want to make people mad. In SC2 it's assumed you'll keep achievements too. The flag that determines whether you get the CE Thor is based on players having that CE Feats of Strength Achievement. 4. Finally if they remove CE Thor for HotS, this will discourage people from buying the HotS CE version (which will likely because there has been a CE for every WoW expansion and for Diablo III too). How will they entice people to buy the CE version if they don't get the stuff carried over? If you take into account SC, D2, and WC3, the expansion will make the original deserted/obsolete (few people play WC3 RoC for example). Also I don't confirm that as a fact (Blizzard keeping the Thor only for CE) but just my speculation.
I doubt it mostly because they would do something exactly like you described if they wanted to remove the thor and keep something for the WoL ce: just give them somthing else.
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EPT
