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Such a flawed poll. Inject your bias into the choices presented, and make all the answers you receive tainted by it. We have no affinity for blizzard's unique units in the game, so you are essentially preaching to the choir already. If you want real information gathered from a poll, note that some people don't agree with you. Don't prop up straw men (The only reason Blizzard made it 1-only is their conception of "super balance," balance concerns are why rational people would want it removed).
First, (and I'm playing Devil's Advocate here), maybe unique units are necessary to spice up RTS gameplay, or fill a void in an endgame tech path. You bring up that it's been nothing but trouble from first addition, yet they still don't even appear in 1/7 of tournament PvZ games, likely much less than that. They're not the core of an RTS game, so aren't available to all races. Second, their balance comes from having counter strategies relying on just killing the one unit, and involve risk in investing so many resources in the tech & the unit itself. So the good player make choose to take the risk and sink high amounts of resources in the technology and construction knowing if it doesn't pan out, he has lost much more beyond a single unit in a war.
I would leave you with a poll of my own to perhaps illustrate how flawed polls can be, but I'll just write it in text here, since the results follow your own in showing nothing useful. *Ahem* Now that I've demonstrated how terrible it is to believe unique units have a place in RTS games, let's see what you think!
What did you find most incendiary/biased about the author's presentation?
1. "blizzard's biggest flaw in game design"
2. "the skill cap to pull this off is well......... nothing?"
3. "we need a bigger uproar about this."
4. "no place in an RTS especially when only one race has access to it."
For the TL;DR same as,
Ninja_Bread wrote
What a flawed vote system "especially when only one race has access to it"
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One race gets a massive unit, two races don't.
Either give every race an equivalent, or take the stupid useless toys out of a manly game such as SC.
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I don't really see the problem with mega-units. I think it just adds some more to the game. I see no reason why each race needs one. All that's necessary is that the game is balanced and the races/units feel unique.
I think the mega-units should be specific to the races. I don't really think it fits zerg at all to have a super unit unless it like had a friendly aura or spawned units or something. The mothership fits protoss really well as a super-caster unit, which is exactly what protoss is all about. I personally like the mothership a lot and I have no idea why they're getting rid of it. It actually seems to add quite a bit to the game to be honest.
The Thor sounds rather uninteresting at the moment. I like Terran being the transformers race, so maybe if they did something more like that I would be more interested. But Barrage alone is just boring.
I think this topic is a little disingenuous. Is your problem with the mothership the fact that you can only build one? I'm a bit skeptical on that idea.
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I honestly believe the mother ship is a good unit. The hero Thor on the other hand I don't like so much.
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Mothership, Thor, and Brutalisk should be the 3 units available to the 3 races. Just make it so!
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I think that hero units are incapable of being balanced because not every race will have them. I think Blizzard will have to reconsider about the Thor.
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On December 24 2011 08:34 Ninja_Bread wrote:
What a flawed vote system "especially when only one race has access to it"
Why can't people who make polls just have 'yes' 'no' and then let people write why in their descriptions....
^^ ++
I know you're just b****in' dude, but make your polls less biased, seriously. It irks me every time I read these...
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On December 24 2011 12:52 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 12:43 Goldfish wrote:On December 24 2011 12:20 Big J wrote:On December 24 2011 12:17 Goldfish wrote:
This might have been posted before but I think the only reason Blizzard is keeping the Thor is because of Collector's Edition bonus from WoL. They probably don't want anyone to be mad from buying CE for CE Thor then having it gone on HotS (when likely no one plays WoL anymore which means no more showing off that CE Thor).
Now my solution to Blizzard is to make a new CE version of a unit (The Warhound?) and transfer it to that unit.
They might not keep the Thor in game forever - what if they remove it in LotV? I hope Blizzard figures this out but the easiest way to solve this issue is to transfer the CE to a new unit. Make a CE version of Warhound that CE WoL players will be able to have.
I don't have CE but I can see some players being mad if they no longer have their exclusive unit (I would be too considering the CE Thor does look crazy).
Another way to solve this is to let CE players chose one mercenary version of a unit (like instead of marines, they can pick the war pigs marines). Honestly... this is bullshit. It is the WoL collectors edition for a reason. in WoL you will still have your thor and in HotS I doubt that the (redisigned) thor will have a different design for people who bought the WoL collectors edition. How is it BS? Few things: 1. Why no units removed from Terran but from only Zerg and Protoss. Dustin Browder already stated he thought Terran had too much stuff. 2. If they wanted a hero unit, why not just keep the Mothership but remove/revamp Vortex? (Only issue with Vortex is the Archon Toilet still works.) They are already redesigning certain existing units in HotS (Hydralisk gets speed upgrade off creep, Banes can move underground, and of course the Thor is redesigned). Why not just revamp the Mothership a little if they wanted a hero unit? 3. You doubt that based on? In WoW you keep things like pets from every CE (and achievement too but as feats of strength). While yes, it's an MMO, it does show Blizzard doesn't want to make people mad. In SC2 it's assumed you'll keep achievements too. The flag that determines whether you get the CE Thor is based on players having that CE Feats of Strength Achievement. 4. Finally if they remove CE Thor for HotS, this will discourage people from buying the HotS CE version (which will likely because there has been a CE for every WoW expansion and for Diablo III too). How will they entice people to buy the CE version if they don't get the stuff carried over? If you take into account SC, D2, and WC3, the expansion will make the original deserted/obsolete (few people play WC3 RoC for example). Also I don't confirm that as a fact (Blizzard keeping the Thor only for CE) but just my speculation. I doubt it mostly because they would do something exactly like you described if they wanted to remove the thor and keep something for the WoL ce: just give them somthing else.
Good answer actually. Also I apologize for completely missing that >.>.
Ehh I just found it odd that it seemed Blizzard went out of their way to keep Thor when they earlier said Terran had too much stuff. They removed Carriers which weren't overpowered at all and Overseers. Both do not "completely" overlap with Tempest and Viper respectively.
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No counter to mass brood lord except for mothership.
Don't see the problem with a hero unit as long as its balanced
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I love the mothership but you have a point. Hero units seem to be bad design imho.
I want my arbiters back.
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I'll give you three guesses about which race this guy is...
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your argument is based on the brokenness of vortex so why not conclude fixing vortex (for example units keep there position, like vortex is an anti-recall to nowhere =D)?
in principle theres nothing wrong with only one race having hero unit imo, as it could be used to give unique playstyles to each race, sadly though dustin browder said they are not aiming for distinct themes just difference...
one big argument in favor of hero units is the spectating side, yes you can argue its not starcraftish but thats an entirely subjective argument...
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would be nice if blizzard actually listened to their players for once
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i dont like the idea of half screen big units thats basically a ripoff of bw unit ;(
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On December 24 2011 13:05 run.at.me wrote:
No counter to mass brood lord except for mothership.
Don't see the problem with a hero unit as long as its balanced
Besides storms/blink stalkers and voids?
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I say ditch the Tempest (though keep it in the editor for map makers) and bring in the Corsair.
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There's a difference between hero units (WC3) and mega units (mega-Thor/Mothership). They've said that (I think and hope it only stays with the single player) Kerrigan is going to be a hero unit (can't find the quote now, of course). As for mega units, here's my two cents.
A) Does it make sense to the race? The Mothership, yes, it does. I don't play Protoss but honestly I'm sad to see this go. It's a nicely creative unit that allows for some fun (from a viewer standpoint) tricks as well as having a spot in the whole thing that is Protoss. Limiting it to one makes sense also; it's a Mothership, not a mommyship. It's THE end-all construct, you only NEED one mothership. The mega-Thor (or double-down Thor) also makes sense, as a unit, but not how they're putting it in. There's nothing...big and epic about the Terran army. They mass produce units in factories. Having a single big massive "kill yo' ass" unit doesn't seem to fit with the theme. I think the Zerg should have one, truthfully, something along the idea of the Overmind that allows you to grief with creep or something.
B) Does it make sense in gameplay? To me, the mega-Thor does not while the Mothership does. The Mothership offers a unique unit to plan the game around (go watch Husky cast White-Ra's Mothership/Carrier rush, it's awesome as all getout), but the mega-Thor is just a glorified (and hella expensive, 600m if memory serves) siege tank (with the "bombard" ability sounding to be the exact same). Does Terran need a new "siege" unit? Imo, no; there's the siege tank plus the new Shredder unit (which will protect ramps and such JUST like a siege tank does, only it WON'T cause you to kill all your bio when it does damage, so it's as fire and forget as cannons/crawlers are). Zerg needed a siege breaker other than the broodlord, so the swarm host to me makes sense.
C) Fair and balanced? I lol at these arguments. Everything sounds so ungodly OP at the moment. Toss cannon rushing you with just a pylon and energy. Shredders that can rip light units to shreds in only a couple seconds. The viper's abilities as a support caster, when coupled with the infestor are zomgwtfbbq (either the Scorpion ability + Neural or fart cloud + fungal). Nothing is fair or balanced in SC2:HotS right now. That's why we have to wait for the beta, give feedback, and see what ol' Dusty will do.
Keep your panties from getting wadded, folks, most of what we have now is just primary thoughts and nothing concrete (pencil can be erased, yo). Either way, I'm looking forward to the chances, because change can be fun, and it'd be awesome to see creative strats using/busing awesome ideas over "solid macro play" every so often. Cheese games aren't fun to watch, but unless the hour long macro game is truly awesome (big fights, not a slow war of attrition) clashes, it can be just as boring/disappointing.
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I think they are actually great as long as they are almost never used at a competitive level.
I'm completely serious. Having one unit which is rarely used is great for esports, because whenever it does show up it is a really big deal.
I used to dislike the mothership, but I realized it actually had a great amount of spectator value because of how rare of a sight it was. I still don't like the mothership itself, as I think it's poorly designed and has lame abilities, but I think the concept of a "hero unit" is actually good.
I'm really excited Blizzard is giving it another shot.
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I would prefer it if there weren't any hero units in the SC universe. The unit type just doesn't seem to fit within the franchise, and I do not believe the way the units have been acting (or can act to avoid imbalance) doesn't work with how Blizzard wants the game to feel. However, I don't actually know what they are shooting for :p
Anyway, in terms of the thread's presentation… a little more to be desired. your TL;DR was more concise and a better read than the rambling that started it off. I can also say with 95% confidence that you are a Zerg player, based on how you QQ'd about the Mothership. But, I do agree with the content of the thread.
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EPT
