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On December 24 2011 09:25 suejak wrote:
I can think of and have heard of many, many solutions to the vortex problem, including shooting infested terrans into the vortex and putting banelings into the vortex...
This is aside from the obvious solution of spreading out your brood lords (etc)
but its not the point of just the mothership its the ideology of hero units existing in the starcraft universe they do not belong
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If you think SC2 hero unit is bad try the expansion for cnc3, now that's a way to add "hero" units to fuck up a game...
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how can one tolerate game designers when they say "this isn't sc1, play sc1 if you want to play sc1" while doing this to sc2.
i've always been against it and that hasn't changed even after using mothership so many times.
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On December 24 2011 09:30 jinorazi wrote:
how can one tolerate game designers when they say "this isn't sc1, play sc1 if you want to play sc1" while doing this to sc2.
i've always been against it and that hasn't changed even after using mothership so many times.
yes agreed and i feel like we are being robbed of our ability to try to separate talent from game design. The ability of the mothership to so drastically change the game in one way or the other is insane. The hero unit takes little to no skill at all to use vs zerg as zerg has NO units that out range the casting radius of vortex. Meaning you cannot kite it. The only way to kill it is to run ur whole damn army into it and hope to god hes bad enough to not react in time for u to kill it.
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SC2 is just Bowder's attempt at creating another C&C. Radar (sentry) towers, every unit with a special ability, big random hero units, command centers upgrading to an immobile fortress, spies (changelings), jetpacks etc.
He's not a bad guy, but he just doesn't get what made BW so good.
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Mothership sucks. Literally.
But the new Thor concept just seems redundant. They were more or less supposed to replace Goliaths as the anti-air walkers in mech compositions but then they were more or less replaced by Warhounds which are more like Goliaths than Thors, but I guess DB wanted to use the Thor design and the sound files that badly?
And this is a hero unit only in limited quantity. WC3 heroes had abilities and skills to turn the tides of battle, this is just a huge thing with big guns.
But let's not get mad, it'll just about never be used if it requires a damn Fusion Core, at least in GSL, where I can only foresee this being used to BM and on Calm Before The Storm.
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On December 24 2011 09:30 Lobber wrote:
If you think SC2 hero unit is bad try the expansion for cnc3, now that's a way to add "hero" units to fuck up a game...
This is exactly what I'm talking about and why I believe the one to be blamed is clearly Browder. It's not that the mothership itself is THAT bad, it's the design philosophy behind it. The idea that there must be these cool, uber epic, complex units in the game to make it good is something that goes completely in the opposite direction to what we saw in the original SC.
I really wish he was gone, I wouldn't be so scared of the future if he weren't there.
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It reminds me the epic game Stephano vs Kiwikaki at IPL3. Like 20 Broodlords wiped with 2 vortex. Such a famous game :D
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Honestly hero units take away from the game in my opinion. There are already units in the game with spells, so why add something that is going to break a race, or cause more problems when it comes to balance.... This is something that they are doing whether or not the community likes it or not. 
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On December 24 2011 09:37 Gurafity wrote:
It reminds me the epic game Stephano vs Kiwikaki at IPL3. Like 20 Broodlords wiped with 2 vortex. Such a famous game :D
yes yes yes agreed! but that is such an insanely maybe like .00005% of when it comes down to the wire where the mothership actually works out. Most of the time its like 200 vs 200 fights and the protoss gets off a good vortex since broods cant outrun the mothership and its vortex and then its just a train chugging along at 200 mph towards ur front door
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On December 24 2011 09:15 BloodThirsty wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 09:10 Big J wrote:
Why are there only dumbass vote options?
I would like to vote for all of the following:
-) as long as they work well and are interesting i dont care
-) i dont care about the OPs balance whining and his own little attitudes of "how rts should work"
-) looking forward to the ubermegaultraomegalisk in LotV im sorry next time ill make sure to PM u ahead of time to see what polls u would like to have? sorry if they arent up to ur intellectual standards but clearly u r dumb enough to think its only my own "little attitude of how rts should work" when nearly 99% of the people voting so far are have down right agreed with me so maybe its u who should check ur attitude and maybe not try to belittle peoples postings by using words such as "dumbass vote options". No one likes an ignorant disrespectful moron on a forum so if u dont got anything nice to say dont post it
So why are you posting as clearly you are the ignorant person here if you think that hero units are not part of rts:
C&C has them, WC3 has them and well sc2 now has them as well. ( not to mention all the lesser known rts games which have them)
Also you are the ignorant person if you just dont want hero units for the sake of them being hero units.
Also your OP was also far away from being a nice read. Just a lot of shitting over bliz.
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Give each race one, make sure they are not OP, or do not give them at all. Nothing more needs to be said on it
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Canada11607 Posts
Yeah these hero units have no place in a StarCraft game. I feel like they're trying to add these ridiculously powered abilities at the end game like SupCom 2's nuke wherever you want and fire units across the map in a giant cannon.
Arbiters actually had an interesting interplay with tanks and science vessels. Stasis didn't cover much area so you needed to choose carefully, and the back tanks were the best. But science vessels vs arbiters could counter each other depending on whether stasis or emp goes off first. Furthermore, with less unit clumping and less recall radius, the Protoss army is given tremendous mobility rather than needing to sit your one hero unit on top of your deathball. Recalls could hit the Terran all over the map rather than one place. One hero unit pushes SC2 into even more problems with unit composition rather than unit use. You get a hero unit and you sweep the field with it- if it doesn't sweep the field, it becomes too weak and is never used.
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There is not, nor has there been, such a thing as a hero unit in SC2, if by that you're referring to something like the C&C hero units, or the Warcraft 3 heroes, or to the generally race- and game-defining mechanics possessed by other games. There is, however, one unit you can only build one of in SC2, but that's not really the same thing.
Putting a build-cap of one on a unit is just a balancing tool; it can be interesting, or not so interesting, balanced or not so balanced, depending on what the unit is and what it does. The mechanic itself has its advantages, and its disadvantages; but it's not really as unit-defining as people are making out. Such units can pretty much always be re-balanced to not have a build-cap, without that much of a change to the core role of the unit. But the idea that this mechanic can NEVER, EVER be used in Starcraft...why, exactly? I don't really get it.
Frankly, I think the community is way more obsessed with the phenomenon of "hero units" than Blizzard ever has been.
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On December 24 2011 09:36 MidKnight wrote:
SC2 is just Bowder's attempt at creating another C&C. Radar (sentry) towers, every unit with a special ability, big random hero units, command centers upgrading to an immobile fortress, spies (changelings), jetpacks etc.
He's not a bad guy, but he just doesn't get what made BW so good.
Yet somehow, he helped make this brilliant game that is easily the most successful competitive RTS game in the west ever.
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On December 24 2011 08:44 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 08:36 legaton wrote:
The mothership is an almost useless unit, it is used on late game PvZ on 10% of the games, and usually for no effect as the zerg player probably made corruptors against colossus As a zerg player I disagree. Nothing like seeing ten archons and a mother ship wipeout 200/200 worth of Broods/Corruptors/Lings/Infestors/Ultras in five seconds. And suddenly, the seven base zerg loses to the two base Toss with zero mining protoss who is down 80 supply with half of that supply being Probes. -.- Yes I'm bitter.
I feel you. Especially since the neural parasite nerf :p
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Lol i think this post is probably from a game you just lost after being archon toileted 
No the hero unit isn't the most balanced thing ever but the thing is that they suck so much that it hardly even matters. The mothership is finally starting to show some viability in PvZ by vortexing BLs. However, I can't say too much for the Thor as I haven't seen it in action at all.
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On December 24 2011 09:42 Captain Peabody wrote:
There is not, nor has there been, such a thing as a hero unit in SC2, if by that you're referring to something like the C&C hero units, or the Warcraft 3 heroes, or to the generally race- and game-defining mechanics possessed by other games. There is, however, one unit you can only build one of in SC2, but that's not really the same thing.
Putting a build-cap of one on a unit is just a balancing tool; it can be interesting, or not so interesting, balanced or not so balanced, depending on what the unit is and what it does. The mechanic itself has its advantages, and its disadvantages; but it's not really as unit-defining as people are making out. Such units can pretty much always be re-balanced to not have a build-cap, without that much of a change to the core role of the unit. But the idea that this mechanic can NEVER, EVER be used in Starcraft...why, exactly? I don't really get it.
Frankly, I think the community is way more obsessed with the phenomenon of "hero units" than Blizzard ever has been.
Mothership and HotS Thor are for all intents and purposes 'hero' units. And the way the game works means that the mechanic can NEVER, EVER be used. It will always be either overpowered or useless by its very nature. 'Hero' units have no place in SC.
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Hero units are part of the show. I love them. Would like them to add even more !!
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On December 24 2011 09:43 suejak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 09:36 MidKnight wrote:
SC2 is just Bowder's attempt at creating another C&C. Radar (sentry) towers, every unit with a special ability, big random hero units, command centers upgrading to an immobile fortress, spies (changelings), jetpacks etc.
He's not a bad guy, but he just doesn't get what made BW so good.
Yet somehow, he helped make this brilliant game that is easily the most successful competitive RTS game in the west ever.
Pssst... must not defend blizzard and/or browder. only bash them. takes less thinking sounds more manly!
Also always remember everything that is good comes from broodwar. everything that is bad is just a copy of a non broodwar game. that is not to say that we dont like innovations. we just dont want them to be in the game!
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EPT
