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On December 16 2011 15:17 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 15:13 Woizit wrote:On December 16 2011 15:06 Jackle wrote:On December 16 2011 14:57 NHY wrote:Few things I'd like to point out. 1. GSL's 2012 format change was announced at the beginning of GSL Nov, which kicked off on October 27th. This was in between MLG Orlando and MLG Providence. This announcement stated that there would be 2 "sponsor seeds" in 2012. It has been stated by GOM that one of the reasons for these seeds were to facilitate the interconnectedness between GSL and other foreign tournaments, such as MLG, IPL, or IEM. 2. People have asked GOM whether NaNiwa's 2nd place in MLG Providence means that he would be getting Code S seed. GOM's response at the time was that it had not been decided yet and they will announce as soon as they decide what to do. This point had been covered by TIG news at the time as well. There hasn't been another announcement regarding this issue until the announcement of Idra/Sen. This needs more fucking reads. I'm sick and tired of reading posts saying how GOM changed their format over night without telling anyone. Blizzard cup was announced almost 2 months ago, and the new GSL format around the same time, where it said that in the new GSL format there would be 2 International seeds. Nothing specifically about MLG. Even that ThisIsGame article asks whether Naniwa was going to be seeded through MLG or invited anyways for his recent performance. Well there definitely seems to be something lost in translation when they decided on changing the GSL format. Unfortunately, I can't see how GOM can be blameless. They failed to inform the relevant parties of the seed change. It doesn't matter that others asked GOM, the people that mattered didn't know when they should. It would also mean that "relevant parties"(MLG, NaNiwa, his team) didn't ask GOM about it either.
Yes, but the change was initiated by GOM. The responsibility should fall on GOM to tell the others about it first.
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On December 16 2011 15:22 Woizit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 15:17 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 15:13 Woizit wrote:On December 16 2011 15:06 Jackle wrote:On December 16 2011 14:57 NHY wrote:Few things I'd like to point out. 1. GSL's 2012 format change was announced at the beginning of GSL Nov, which kicked off on October 27th. This was in between MLG Orlando and MLG Providence. This announcement stated that there would be 2 "sponsor seeds" in 2012. It has been stated by GOM that one of the reasons for these seeds were to facilitate the interconnectedness between GSL and other foreign tournaments, such as MLG, IPL, or IEM. 2. People have asked GOM whether NaNiwa's 2nd place in MLG Providence means that he would be getting Code S seed. GOM's response at the time was that it had not been decided yet and they will announce as soon as they decide what to do. This point had been covered by TIG news at the time as well. There hasn't been another announcement regarding this issue until the announcement of Idra/Sen. This needs more fucking reads. I'm sick and tired of reading posts saying how GOM changed their format over night without telling anyone. Blizzard cup was announced almost 2 months ago, and the new GSL format around the same time, where it said that in the new GSL format there would be 2 International seeds. Nothing specifically about MLG. Even that ThisIsGame article asks whether Naniwa was going to be seeded through MLG or invited anyways for his recent performance. Well there definitely seems to be something lost in translation when they decided on changing the GSL format. Unfortunately, I can't see how GOM can be blameless. They failed to inform the relevant parties of the seed change. It doesn't matter that others asked GOM, the people that mattered didn't know when they should. It would also mean that "relevant parties"(MLG, NaNiwa, his team) didn't ask GOM about it either. Yes, but the change was initiated by GOM. The responsibility should fall on GOM to tell the others about it first.
They told the world about it.
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On December 16 2011 15:19 vuvuzela1 wrote:
I'm really hoping that USA tournies just black list korean sponsorship, like dealing with player dropouts (NASL) and now this. It feels like most of the tournies are in the west anyways. Also the west is creating big name teams(and contracts too? i know figures have not been discussed). Western teams are willing to take Korean players as well so there is no need for this type of shady business to continue IMO. It's sad because its have a huge detrimental effect on the sport. Other sports have not had these problems in the past. I.E. Ichiro and numerous other players from Asian baseball teams and Yao Ming and other Asian basketball players. Even with the changes in contract and league ownership rules things are getting done in a respectful manner. This is just embarrassing.
I'm sorry but this would be an awful decision on MLG/IEM/NASL's part. In the eyes of many people their tournaments lose meaning 'cause they're missing the best players. And trust me I love Hero and Puma but they're not MVP, Nestea, MMA, etc. Also TBH I imagine MLG is happy someone stood up to Nani, calling their tournament a joke in front of tens of thousands and refusing to play a highly anticipated match for GOM.
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On December 16 2011 15:26 diophan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 15:19 vuvuzela1 wrote:
I'm really hoping that USA tournies just black list korean sponsorship, like dealing with player dropouts (NASL) and now this. It feels like most of the tournies are in the west anyways. Also the west is creating big name teams(and contracts too? i know figures have not been discussed). Western teams are willing to take Korean players as well so there is no need for this type of shady business to continue IMO. It's sad because its have a huge detrimental effect on the sport. Other sports have not had these problems in the past. I.E. Ichiro and numerous other players from Asian baseball teams and Yao Ming and other Asian basketball players. Even with the changes in contract and league ownership rules things are getting done in a respectful manner. This is just embarrassing. I'm sorry but this would be an awful decision on MLG/IEM/NASL's part. In the eyes of many people their tournaments lose meaning 'cause they're missing the best players. And trust me I love Hero and Puma but they're not MVP, Nestea, MMA, etc. Also TBH I imagine MLG is happy someone stood up to Nani, calling their tournament a joke in front of tens of thousands and refusing to play a highly anticipated match for GOM.
I mean i agree and understand but i feel like their players would find other means. Like a new Korean team that didn't have problems or a current korean team would change its feelings. The money is at MLG/IEM/NASL not gom...at least thats my perspective and I feel like somebody must take a stand to the poor ethics. I understand this situation feels unique do to Nani's actions but i don't think this is Independent of Nani and that this type of behaviro will continue.
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On December 16 2011 15:31 vuvuzela1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 15:26 diophan wrote:On December 16 2011 15:19 vuvuzela1 wrote:
I'm really hoping that USA tournies just black list korean sponsorship, like dealing with player dropouts (NASL) and now this. It feels like most of the tournies are in the west anyways. Also the west is creating big name teams(and contracts too? i know figures have not been discussed). Western teams are willing to take Korean players as well so there is no need for this type of shady business to continue IMO. It's sad because its have a huge detrimental effect on the sport. Other sports have not had these problems in the past. I.E. Ichiro and numerous other players from Asian baseball teams and Yao Ming and other Asian basketball players. Even with the changes in contract and league ownership rules things are getting done in a respectful manner. This is just embarrassing. I'm sorry but this would be an awful decision on MLG/IEM/NASL's part. In the eyes of many people their tournaments lose meaning 'cause they're missing the best players. And trust me I love Hero and Puma but they're not MVP, Nestea, MMA, etc. Also TBH I imagine MLG is happy someone stood up to Nani, calling their tournament a joke in front of tens of thousands and refusing to play a highly anticipated match for GOM. I mean i agree and understand but i feel like there players would find other means. Like a new Korean team that didn't have problems or a current korean team would change its feelings. The money is at MLG/IEM/NASL not gom...at least thats my perspective and I feel like somebody must take a stand to the poor ethics. I understand this situation feels unique do to Nani's actions but i don't think this is Independent of Nani and that this type of behaviro will continue.
The money obtainable by FOREIGNERS is at MLG/IEM/NASL, You do realize GSL gives out about $120,000 in prize money every season. 7 GSLs in 2011 + Special events like Super Tournament, AoL, and GSTL.
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On December 16 2011 05:08 Xalorian wrote:
Weird, is in it?
I don't know... was weird in it?
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I could take the side of Naniwa, who spit in the face of GOM/fans/sportsmanship/esports or I could take the side of GOM who stood up for fans/esports/sportsmanship.
Easy choice. I really hate Naniwa for what he did. If Naniwa had an ounce of respect for eSports intead of himself he would come into threads like this on TL and reddit and defend GOM and stand by his apology. But he doesn't really believe in anything except himself and is relishing the controversy.
Also, Sundance is an idiot. By issuing such a wet napkin statement, he guaranteed to fan the flames of this controversy. Maybe he thinks it's great for eSports, that remains to be seen.
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On December 16 2011 15:37 Jackle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 15:31 vuvuzela1 wrote:On December 16 2011 15:26 diophan wrote:On December 16 2011 15:19 vuvuzela1 wrote:
I'm really hoping that USA tournies just black list korean sponsorship, like dealing with player dropouts (NASL) and now this. It feels like most of the tournies are in the west anyways. Also the west is creating big name teams(and contracts too? i know figures have not been discussed). Western teams are willing to take Korean players as well so there is no need for this type of shady business to continue IMO. It's sad because its have a huge detrimental effect on the sport. Other sports have not had these problems in the past. I.E. Ichiro and numerous other players from Asian baseball teams and Yao Ming and other Asian basketball players. Even with the changes in contract and league ownership rules things are getting done in a respectful manner. This is just embarrassing. I'm sorry but this would be an awful decision on MLG/IEM/NASL's part. In the eyes of many people their tournaments lose meaning 'cause they're missing the best players. And trust me I love Hero and Puma but they're not MVP, Nestea, MMA, etc. Also TBH I imagine MLG is happy someone stood up to Nani, calling their tournament a joke in front of tens of thousands and refusing to play a highly anticipated match for GOM. I mean i agree and understand but i feel like there players would find other means. Like a new Korean team that didn't have problems or a current korean team would change its feelings. The money is at MLG/IEM/NASL not gom...at least thats my perspective and I feel like somebody must take a stand to the poor ethics. I understand this situation feels unique do to Nani's actions but i don't think this is Independent of Nani and that this type of behaviro will continue. The money obtainable by FOREIGNERS is at MLG/IEM/NASL, You do realize GSL gives out about $120,000 in prize money every season. 7 GSLs in 2011 + Special events like Super Tournament, AoL, and GSTL.
My statement was stated poorly. What i was trying to imply is what you said. Foreigners money is at MLG/IEM/NASL. The question here becomes would people stop watching non-korean tournaments(MLG/IEM/NASL) if they did not have koreans? I think for the growth of the sport we all want to see the top players from all regions compete, but if that means being walked all over by korean organizations these is simply a setback. After reading the original post a few more times it appears that it's possible that both organizations had the ability to run their own tournament and makes changes to the exchange league if they felt necessary? (At least thats my speculation) I suppose if MLG is okay with bringing koreans to their tournament without anything in return from GOM that's their decision and their money. It just frustrates me to see International Policy negatively effect esports. I felt this way with the Stephano incident as well. I suppose this is way Agents have jobs for professional sports.
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I dont get why people are defending GOM, they switched out the Code S seed, for a Blizzcup seed which included seeding from tournaments without partnerships (IEM/IPL/DH). If I was MLG I would feel shortchanged. This tournament was not an exclusive GOM/MLG partnership deal. If at some point someone took a conscious effort to inform MLG that they were getting screwed, MLG wouldnt have posted all those articles about Naniwa getting the Code S seed.
Then GOM screwed over the two seeds in the Blizzcup by replacing it with more GSL people. If it was done right, Sen should have gotten the Blizzcon seed, and Xigua should have gotten the WCG seed.
Honestly, Naniwa would have had his seed taken either way, GOM just wants to cover their own asses, appeasing the Koreans by punishing Naniwa, and appeasing the foreign community by technically not punishing him. Well this shit isnt cool. GOM does whatever it wants, and bends rules, and agreements to whatever it wants.
In Naniwa's words, GOM is a joke organization.
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I keep hearing people relate this back to Nani's situation, logically, however i think the thing we are failing to realize is one don't have to point blame at one person and defend the other. In this instance there were problems made by both GOM and Nani. The goal shouldn't be to throw people under the bus but to try and improve. The MLB was greated in 1869 and people in charge of MLB are still discussing ways to improve it. ESports should take the same approach IMO. Focus on forward steps instead of thrashing mistakes of the past.
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Don't make it sound like this is far fetched and unprecedented. Even in real athletes, people get banned from 'violating spirit of fair play'
4. Ara Abrahamian – Sweden
...
Unlike many other athletes on the list, Abrahamian wasn’t found to be doing illegal things. He wasn’t using steroids to enhance his performance or breaking any other serious offense like most athletes on the list. At the 2008 Olympics in Beijing, Abrahamian was up against tough opponents. After the judges finalized their scores, Abrahamian only came in third. However, he and his coach both disputed the scores and claimed the judges were being corrupt and unjust. The two called for a review of the match but this was declined. Come time for the awards ceremony, Abrahamian attended, but when he was handed his bronze medal, he shook the hands of the others, stepped off the podium, and placed it on the wrestling mat. He then chose to leave without his medal. Because of the incident, the IOC held a conference and decided that Abrahamian needed to be suspended for violating the spirit of fair play. He and his coach were to be banned for 2 years, but this was overturned in 2009.
Source: http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-athletes-who-lost-their-olympic-medal.php
I am glad GOM is treating the players like real athletes and the game as a real sport.
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On December 16 2011 15:06 Jackle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 14:57 NHY wrote:Few things I'd like to point out. 1. GSL's 2012 format change was announced at the beginning of GSL Nov, which kicked off on October 27th. This was in between MLG Orlando and MLG Providence. This announcement stated that there would be 2 "sponsor seeds" in 2012. It has been stated by GOM that one of the reasons for these seeds were to facilitate the interconnectedness between GSL and other foreign tournaments, such as MLG, IPL, or IEM. 2. People have asked GOM whether NaNiwa's 2nd place in MLG Providence means that he would be getting Code S seed. GOM's response at the time was that it had not been decided yet and they will announce as soon as they decide what to do. This point had been covered by TIG news at the time as well. There hasn't been another announcement regarding this issue until the announcement of Idra/Sen. This needs more fucking reads. I'm sick and tired of reading posts saying how GOM changed their format over night without telling anyone. Blizzard cup was announced almost 2 months ago, and the new GSL format around the same time, where it said that in the new GSL format there would be 2 International seeds. Nothing specifically about MLG. Even that ThisIsGame article asks whether Naniwa was going to be seeded through MLG or invited anyways for his recent performance.
agreed that this needs more reads. people are blowing this situation out of proportion
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On December 16 2011 05:08 Xalorian wrote:
Do you see the irony in that?
They didn't lied and they had the right to do so, it was not against the rule. But doing it without telling anyone was seriously unprofessional.
Naniwa got punished, because he was unprofessional. But, what he did was not against the rule.
Weird, is in it?
Yeah it's very ironic.
So, GOM has:
1. Altered their part of an agreement.
2. Not told ANYONE involved about it. (edit: MLG, foreign community or Naniwa. They are the ones involved, I don't care if whatever Korean site knew about it or not)
I don't care if there was some clause in the agreement saying they could do such a thing, it's damn near disgusting. They want to accuse Naniwa of disrespecting GOM, viewers and so on? Fine, but they've shown the same disrespect and lack of professionalism, but who's there to give them the punishment they "deserve"? They're a big corporation, and they've apparently not broken any laws, so the only ones with the power and incentive to hold them responsible for their actions are we, the community. There's no one else to regulate this kind of behavior, and we need to step up and say "this is completely unacceptable, and we will not stand for this behavior".
Until GOM delivers a sincere apology to MLG, the fans and even Naniwa who's been an unfortunate victim (despite his own actions of which he is of course responsible), I will not support GOM with so much as a dollar. I've paid for GSL season tickets before, and not buying tickets is my only weapon, our only weapon, that GOM really cares about.
And I don't want no shitty excuses about them having every right to what they did, we already know they've not broken any laws.
GOM: Admit to your deception (intentional or not), disrespect and lack of professionalism in this matter!
You think I'm being harsh? All I'm asking for is a sincere apology, which might be hard to give for a proud Korean corporation (or am I wrong in that view of Korean culture?). Some might think some sort of compensation is in order as well, but I won't ask for that. Understand this: there is nothing in between creating a complete shit-storm to force GOM to apologize, and just whine about it. Because whatever middle-ground you might find GOM can just ride that out with no consequences.
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On December 16 2011 16:31 Bogeyman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:08 Xalorian wrote:
Do you see the irony in that?
They didn't lied and they had the right to do so, it was not against the rule. But doing it without telling anyone was seriously unprofessional.
Naniwa got punished, because he was unprofessional. But, what he did was not against the rule.
Weird, is in it? Yeah it's very ironic. So, GOM has: 1. Altered their part of an agreement. 2. Not told ANYONE involved about it. (edit: MLG, foreign community or Naniwa. They are the ones involved, I don't care if whatever Korean site knew about it or not) Until GOM delivers a sincere apology to MLG, the fans and even Naniwa who's been an unfortunate victim (despite his own actions of which he is of course responsible), I will not support GOM with so much as a dollar. I've paid for GSL season tickets before, and not buying tickets is my only weapon, our only weapon, that GOM really cares about. .
So... GOM said in Korean at http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/community/view.gom?msgid=23986 that there's no guaranteed GSL Code S spot, MLG announces in English there is. This is all GOM's fault and they're the ones being deceptive?
Sorry buddy but you're obviously being biased because of the language you speak. Both had publicly released statements which apparently neither read. MLG and GOM are equally culpable, but I would say it's pretty clear to anyone who doesn't want to rage for the sake of raging that it wasn't intentional.
Funny thing is none of this would have ever come to pass if Nani doesn't make a mockery out of the Blizzard Cup. It makes me very sad that people like you are refusing to support GOM because you read the English statements while there's are in Korean.
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On December 16 2011 14:17 akalarry wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 14:13 YuTz wrote:
Quantic only paid for Losira and the IM coach to attend Providence. MVP and Nestea had paid trips from MLG since they where both in the MLG Global Invitational. only the winner of mlg global invitational got a paid trip to mlg providence.
You should check out who you are replying to before typing out random wrong statements 
+ Show Spoiler [hint] +Specifically, check who he works for... 
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On December 16 2011 15:55 FishForThought wrote:Don't make it sound like this is far fetched and unprecedented. Even in real athletes, people get banned from 'violating spirit of fair play' Show nested quote +4. Ara Abrahamian – Sweden
...
Unlike many other athletes on the list, Abrahamian wasn’t found to be doing illegal things. He wasn’t using steroids to enhance his performance or breaking any other serious offense like most athletes on the list. At the 2008 Olympics in Beijing, Abrahamian was up against tough opponents. After the judges finalized their scores, Abrahamian only came in third. However, he and his coach both disputed the scores and claimed the judges were being corrupt and unjust. The two called for a review of the match but this was declined. Come time for the awards ceremony, Abrahamian attended, but when he was handed his bronze medal, he shook the hands of the others, stepped off the podium, and placed it on the wrestling mat. He then chose to leave without his medal. Because of the incident, the IOC held a conference and decided that Abrahamian needed to be suspended for violating the spirit of fair play. He and his coach were to be banned for 2 years, but this was overturned in 2009.
Source: http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-athletes-who-lost-their-olympic-medal.phpI am glad GOM is treating the players like real athletes and the game as a real sport.
This is actually the best sport reference I've heard in this whole discussion. Thank you!
Another interesting thing here is that Abrahamian is Swedish. In Sweden there was a lot of discussion about this and the Swedish Wrestling Organisation and Swedish Olympic Committé stood behind Abrahamian and basically called the whole decision corrupt - it was not only Abrahamian himself and his coach.
On TV and in media when they talked about this nearly everyone supported Abrahamian and his decision. People were really angry at FILA and IOC, different online polls showed about 80-95% support for the fact that Abrahamian did the right thing by placing the medal on the ground.
The more I think about it we have a lot of Swedish athletes that are very similar to Naniwa.
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On December 16 2011 16:05 adolescent wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 15:06 Jackle wrote:On December 16 2011 14:57 NHY wrote:Few things I'd like to point out. 1. GSL's 2012 format change was announced at the beginning of GSL Nov, which kicked off on October 27th. This was in between MLG Orlando and MLG Providence. This announcement stated that there would be 2 "sponsor seeds" in 2012. It has been stated by GOM that one of the reasons for these seeds were to facilitate the interconnectedness between GSL and other foreign tournaments, such as MLG, IPL, or IEM. 2. People have asked GOM whether NaNiwa's 2nd place in MLG Providence means that he would be getting Code S seed. GOM's response at the time was that it had not been decided yet and they will announce as soon as they decide what to do. This point had been covered by TIG news at the time as well. There hasn't been another announcement regarding this issue until the announcement of Idra/Sen. This needs more fucking reads. I'm sick and tired of reading posts saying how GOM changed their format over night without telling anyone. Blizzard cup was announced almost 2 months ago, and the new GSL format around the same time, where it said that in the new GSL format there would be 2 International seeds. Nothing specifically about MLG. Even that ThisIsGame article asks whether Naniwa was going to be seeded through MLG or invited anyways for his recent performance. agreed that this needs more reads. people are blowing this situation out of proportion
+1. Also there are too many people jumping on the hate bandwagon. Can we cut the crap and work towards a nice reconciliation and try to improve e-sports? I would love to see Naniwa being competitive in the GSL against the best in the world (i.e. top Korean competition for now) like Huk. That means a need to support both. Also go read EGAlex's perspective.
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Naniwa got a free spot. Played disrespectful. Gom retaliated.
I am fine with it.
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the code S spot was part of the pricepool.. gom and mlg agreed on this, now gom changed it (without telling anyone), lol?! this really makes me sad.. i spent around 7 paid seasons with gom (not too much for them, but at least a lot of money for me), this will end now!
i think mlg should talk gom to giving nani a code S spot at least next season.. he earned it and now got tricked out of it! im really angry and sad 
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On December 16 2011 15:26 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 15:22 Woizit wrote:On December 16 2011 15:17 NHY wrote:On December 16 2011 15:13 Woizit wrote:On December 16 2011 15:06 Jackle wrote:On December 16 2011 14:57 NHY wrote:Few things I'd like to point out. 1. GSL's 2012 format change was announced at the beginning of GSL Nov, which kicked off on October 27th. This was in between MLG Orlando and MLG Providence. This announcement stated that there would be 2 "sponsor seeds" in 2012. It has been stated by GOM that one of the reasons for these seeds were to facilitate the interconnectedness between GSL and other foreign tournaments, such as MLG, IPL, or IEM. 2. People have asked GOM whether NaNiwa's 2nd place in MLG Providence means that he would be getting Code S seed. GOM's response at the time was that it had not been decided yet and they will announce as soon as they decide what to do. This point had been covered by TIG news at the time as well. There hasn't been another announcement regarding this issue until the announcement of Idra/Sen. This needs more fucking reads. I'm sick and tired of reading posts saying how GOM changed their format over night without telling anyone. Blizzard cup was announced almost 2 months ago, and the new GSL format around the same time, where it said that in the new GSL format there would be 2 International seeds. Nothing specifically about MLG. Even that ThisIsGame article asks whether Naniwa was going to be seeded through MLG or invited anyways for his recent performance. Well there definitely seems to be something lost in translation when they decided on changing the GSL format. Unfortunately, I can't see how GOM can be blameless. They failed to inform the relevant parties of the seed change. It doesn't matter that others asked GOM, the people that mattered didn't know when they should. It would also mean that "relevant parties"(MLG, NaNiwa, his team) didn't ask GOM about it either. Yes, but the change was initiated by GOM. The responsibility should fall on GOM to tell the others about it first. They told the world about it.
They did a very poor job at telling the world about it...
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EPT
