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On December 19 2011 22:36 chatuka wrote:
really, if the player earned a spot in a tournament and decides to not play his best, that is his decision and his fate. that player will lose fans, sponsors, whatever. I don't think there is any rule that says that you have to try your best. People play their best in tournaments because of Money. If the player doesn't want to do their best, then they lose money. It's very simple.
Unless there is conspiracy or collusion going on with Mafia gangs and sports betting, then there is a reason why you should ban a player (I.E savior)
It's ashame what happened at the Blizzard Cup, but I don't think Naniwa should lose his Code S spot. The more appropriate response would have been a reprimand or a warning. Maybe adding an addendum to the GSL contract that says that any player that purposely throws a game will be revoked of the GSL Code S spot. However, since what GOM is doing is Ex Post Facto, which means After the FACT.. That there is NO Rule in the contract or game that says that Probe Rushing is a violation of policy of the GSL Blizzard CUP.. Naniwa would probably win the lawsuit given the chance. but really the cost to sue GOM would be prohibitive, since paying lawyers would outweigh the the compensation you get if Naniwa retained the Code S spot
Sigh, no he has 0% chance of winning a lawsuit.
Gom never promised Naniwa a spot so good luck starting there.
The one that promised him a spot was MLG and they said it was within the right of GOM to change it.
So not only he would have no legg to stand on, it would cost him a ton of a cash and blacklist him from playing in korea again for a long while if not forever.
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On December 19 2011 22:42 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 22:36 chatuka wrote:
really, if the player earned a spot in a tournament and decides to not play his best, that is his decision and his fate. that player will lose fans, sponsors, whatever. I don't think there is any rule that says that you have to try your best. People play their best in tournaments because of Money. If the player doesn't want to do their best, then they lose money. It's very simple.
Unless there is conspiracy or collusion going on with Mafia gangs and sports betting, then there is a reason why you should ban a player (I.E savior)
It's ashame what happened at the Blizzard Cup, but I don't think Naniwa should lose his Code S spot. The more appropriate response would have been a reprimand or a warning. Maybe adding an addendum to the GSL contract that says that any player that purposely throws a game will be revoked of the GSL Code S spot. However, since what GOM is doing is Ex Post Facto, which means After the FACT.. That there is NO Rule in the contract or game that says that Probe Rushing is a violation of policy of the GSL Blizzard CUP.. Naniwa would probably win the lawsuit given the chance. but really the cost to sue GOM would be prohibitive, since paying lawyers would outweigh the the compensation you get if Naniwa retained the Code S spot Sigh, no he has 0% chance of winning a lawsuit. Gom never promised Naniwa a spot so good luck starting there. The one that promised him a spot was MLG and they said it was within the right of GOM to change it. So not only he would have no legg to stand on, it would cost him a ton of a cash and blacklist him from playing in korea again for a long while if not forever.
That makes no sense. MLG should have not guaranteeed a Code S spot, if GOM can change the terms and conditions of a contract at any point. Contracts are binding. If they are not binding there is no point in having a contract, which is an agreement in paper. It is not a contract, when some corporate body can change the terms and conditions of a contract at any moments notice. Therefore, legally Naniwa does have a leg to stand on, since MLG lied to all the players, saying that there was a Guaranteed Code S spot for the 2nd place runner up for Providence MLG.
My point is that GOM can not change the terms and conditions of a contract. And logically it makes sense. Why would Gom give the Code S spot to another foreigner, After MLG promised the Code S spot to the runner-up of MLG Providence?
I am really disappointed in Gom position and supercelious attitude towards their ability to leverage power in any situation that benefits their interests. If I was a SC2 player, I would never play for GOM again after what they did to Naniwa..
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On December 19 2011 22:39 mind_control wrote:
I'm going with Gom's announcement. he deserved to revoked his code S spot. he's just trash.
On December 19 2011 22:40 mind_control wrote:
If U don't know him, then keep support. but if U know him only inch by inch only a bit closer? then U will know why I'm saying this, and why Gom tv made this decision against to him. Only deserved!
you know, most western societies (at least) try to don't be biased by personal/emotional issues, towards big things, like punishing someone nearly to end his career.
the whole case is more about organizations stick to their rules, treating players and partners (MLG) and how they describe their "honor" (or professionalism) by the way they act.
but ye, sounds like you don't care about being biased as fuck.
"We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not the Swedish youth Johan Lucchesi who plays the game well." - Mr.Chae
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yeah lets listen to the korean netizens
tell me again why you need a SSN to register for anything in kr and why celebrity suicide rates are so high?
I doubt it's because people online behave in a reasonable way
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On December 19 2011 22:50 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 22:42 Assirra wrote:On December 19 2011 22:36 chatuka wrote:
really, if the player earned a spot in a tournament and decides to not play his best, that is his decision and his fate. that player will lose fans, sponsors, whatever. I don't think there is any rule that says that you have to try your best. People play their best in tournaments because of Money. If the player doesn't want to do their best, then they lose money. It's very simple.
Unless there is conspiracy or collusion going on with Mafia gangs and sports betting, then there is a reason why you should ban a player (I.E savior)
It's ashame what happened at the Blizzard Cup, but I don't think Naniwa should lose his Code S spot. The more appropriate response would have been a reprimand or a warning. Maybe adding an addendum to the GSL contract that says that any player that purposely throws a game will be revoked of the GSL Code S spot. However, since what GOM is doing is Ex Post Facto, which means After the FACT.. That there is NO Rule in the contract or game that says that Probe Rushing is a violation of policy of the GSL Blizzard CUP.. Naniwa would probably win the lawsuit given the chance. but really the cost to sue GOM would be prohibitive, since paying lawyers would outweigh the the compensation you get if Naniwa retained the Code S spot Sigh, no he has 0% chance of winning a lawsuit. Gom never promised Naniwa a spot so good luck starting there. The one that promised him a spot was MLG and they said it was within the right of GOM to change it. So not only he would have no legg to stand on, it would cost him a ton of a cash and blacklist him from playing in korea again for a long while if not forever. That makes no sense. MLG should have not guaranteeed a Code S spot, if GOM can change the terms and conditions of a contract at any point. Contracts are binding. If they are not binding there is no point in having a contract, which is an agreement in paper. It is not a contract, when some corporate body can change the terms and conditions of a contract at any moments notice. Therefore, legally Naniwa does have a leg to stand on, since MLG lied to all the players, saying that there was a Guaranteed Code S spot for the 2nd place runner up for Providence MLG. My point is that GOM can not change the terms and conditions of a contract. And logically it makes sense. Why would Gom give the Code S spot to another foreigner, After MLG promised the Code S spot to the runner-up of MLG Providence? I am really disappointed in Gom position and supercelious attitude towards their ability to leverage power in any situation that benefits their interests. If I was a SC2 player, I would never play for GOM again after what they did to Naniwa..
Seriously some structure wouldn't hurt your post. Some understanding of legal aspects wouldn't hurt either.
First you have not read the contract unlike MLG and Gom, so how can you assume what it says? The only information we have says that the "change" of Gom was within their purview. Therefor they did not break the contract.
So no legally Naniwa does not have a leg to stand on, no matter how often you repeat it. Gom considers (or considered) the Blizzard Cup spot to be worth more than Code S and from their PoV it might even be. They saw this as the crowning event of the season where only the best of the best can compete.
Did they behave correctly? Personally i feel they should have sent an email to Naniwa explaining this change, but what confuses me is why Naniwa or his team did not inquire about his so called Code S spot themselves. Wouldn't you plan ahead a bit if it was your life? A simple email asking for the schedule for the Code S season he has a spot for, including group ceremonies etc. so he can book a flight would have cleared up that confusion as well.
Your second paragraph is even stranger... You say they cannot change the terms of a contract which might be true (we don't know the wording of the contract remember, we only know the PR announcements, not the footnotes and any possible appendixes) but you definitly can't state that as an absolute. Many contracts include clauses which can be changed sometimes by one party, at other times only by both parties together. Judging from MLG's post this contract included a Clause that it was Gom's decision what constitutes a Code S equivalent tournament. "Logically it makes sense" ? What makes sense logically? There is no logic in your post, and i clearly lack the proper reference for this it.
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The original agreement between MLG and GSL through the League Exchange Program (LXP) stated that the highest ranked player in the Top 3 from each MLG Pro Circuit event in 2011, including Providence, who did not already have Code S status would be granted Code S status at GSL for one season.
And Naniwa did NOT break ANY rule according to the original agreement..
here is what Gom.TV says
t seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence.
well that is a very disingenous statement. Because according to the original agreement. the MLG providence highest ranked player without a Code S spot would be granted for the next season.
It is very convenient to re-write a new contract for the 2012 GSL without taking into consideration the promises that was
given by GOM for the high ranked Non Code S spot player at MLG providence....
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Hello.
I maybe I am wrong (since I don't speak korean) but isn't most of the reactions quite positive to his apology at PlayXP (http://www.playxp.com/sc2/global/view.php?article_id=3665285)?
It would be very appreciated if you could sum up the sentiments there, especially post-apology!
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On December 19 2011 23:02 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 22:50 chatuka wrote:On December 19 2011 22:42 Assirra wrote:On December 19 2011 22:36 chatuka wrote:
really, if the player earned a spot in a tournament and decides to not play his best, that is his decision and his fate. that player will lose fans, sponsors, whatever. I don't think there is any rule that says that you have to try your best. People play their best in tournaments because of Money. If the player doesn't want to do their best, then they lose money. It's very simple.
Unless there is conspiracy or collusion going on with Mafia gangs and sports betting, then there is a reason why you should ban a player (I.E savior)
It's ashame what happened at the Blizzard Cup, but I don't think Naniwa should lose his Code S spot. The more appropriate response would have been a reprimand or a warning. Maybe adding an addendum to the GSL contract that says that any player that purposely throws a game will be revoked of the GSL Code S spot. However, since what GOM is doing is Ex Post Facto, which means After the FACT.. That there is NO Rule in the contract or game that says that Probe Rushing is a violation of policy of the GSL Blizzard CUP.. Naniwa would probably win the lawsuit given the chance. but really the cost to sue GOM would be prohibitive, since paying lawyers would outweigh the the compensation you get if Naniwa retained the Code S spot Sigh, no he has 0% chance of winning a lawsuit. Gom never promised Naniwa a spot so good luck starting there. The one that promised him a spot was MLG and they said it was within the right of GOM to change it. So not only he would have no legg to stand on, it would cost him a ton of a cash and blacklist him from playing in korea again for a long while if not forever. That makes no sense. MLG should have not guaranteeed a Code S spot, if GOM can change the terms and conditions of a contract at any point. Contracts are binding. If they are not binding there is no point in having a contract, which is an agreement in paper. It is not a contract, when some corporate body can change the terms and conditions of a contract at any moments notice. Therefore, legally Naniwa does have a leg to stand on, since MLG lied to all the players, saying that there was a Guaranteed Code S spot for the 2nd place runner up for Providence MLG. My point is that GOM can not change the terms and conditions of a contract. And logically it makes sense. Why would Gom give the Code S spot to another foreigner, After MLG promised the Code S spot to the runner-up of MLG Providence? I am really disappointed in Gom position and supercelious attitude towards their ability to leverage power in any situation that benefits their interests. If I was a SC2 player, I would never play for GOM again after what they did to Naniwa.. Seriously some structure wouldn't hurt your post. Some understanding of legal aspects wouldn't hurt either. First you have not read the contract unlike MLG and Gom, so how can you assume what it says? The only information we have says that the "change" of Gom was within their purview. Therefor they did not break the contract. So no legally Naniwa does not have a leg to stand on, no matter how often you repeat it. Gom considers (or considered) the Blizzard Cup spot to be worth more than Code S and from their PoV it might even be. They saw this as the crowning event of the season where only the best of the best can compete. Did they behave correctly? Personally i feel they should have sent an email to Naniwa explaining this change, but what confuses me is why Naniwa or his team did not inquire about his so called Code S spot themselves. Wouldn't you plan ahead a bit if it was your life? A simple email asking for the schedule for the Code S season he has a spot for, including group ceremonies etc. so he can book a flight would have cleared up that confusion as well. Your second paragraph is even stranger... You say they cannot change the terms of a contract which might be true (we don't know the wording of the contract remember, we only know the PR announcements, not the footnotes and any possible appendixes) but you definitly can't state that as an absolute. Many contracts include clauses which can be changed sometimes by one party, at other times only by both parties together. Judging from MLG's post this contract included a Clause that it was Gom's decision what constitutes a Code S equivalent tournament. "Logically it makes sense" ? What makes sense logically? There is no logic in your post, and i clearly lack the proper reference for this it.
it is not strange.. it is very logical to understand. GOM promised a Code S spot to the MLG Providence highest ranked non code S player. And for 2012 Gom TV reniged on that agreement with MLG providence and completely disregarded
the meaning of the MLG Providence Tournament for many aspiring Players.
We understand what the contract was about. There was no clause in the contract that said that GOM.TV had the right to re-distribute the Code S spot at the whimsical needs. IF there was SUCH a Clause, MLG would have announced that the Highest ranking Non Code S player would NOT be guaranteed the Code S spot... Do you understand..
That, MLG DID promise the Code S spot to the highest ranked non code S player acording to the agreement made with GOM.TV.. THerefore that agreement is a Legally binding contract. Gom.TV Can NOT re-nig on that contract made to MLG providence and conveniently write a New contract for 2012 therefore giveing some kind of faux semi legitimate excuse to NOT give the highest ranked Non Code S player at MLG providence the Code S spot..
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MLG stated multiple times that Naniwa got a spot in Code S. MLG is a partner of GOM in their exchange programm.
The player have to trust MLG (why shouldn't they until this incident).
So Naniwa should find a lawyer who takes legal actions against MLG. Than MLG could be forced to take on legal actions against GOM, or just say "ok it was our fault - we are sorry - we pay."
This would be the "professional" way to solve this whole disgusting situation.
But honestly i think Naniwa is tired of all that and just want to play quietly his game. Which is sad =[
E-Sports needs respectable organisations.
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A Korean starcraft league imposing its conservative, exploitative progaming culture on an international tournament. I'm not really surprised, but thank god for foreign tournaments succeeding.
By this culture, I mean the mentality that players don't get contracts from their teams, but are instead putting in work with very little payment and bargaining ability, and a demand that they be thankful for what they're getting.
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On December 19 2011 23:17 The Void wrote:
MLG stated multiple times that Naniwa got a spot in Code S. MLG is a partner of GOM in their exchange programm.
The player have to trust MLG (why shouldn't they until this incident).
So Naniwa should find a lawyer who takes legal actions against MLG. Than MLG could be forced to take on legal actions against GOM, or just say "ok it was our fault - we are sorry - we pay."
This would be the "professional" way to solve this whole disgusting situation.
But honestly i think Naniwa is tired of all that and just want to play quietly his game. Which is sad =[
E-Sports needs respectable organisations.
The only disgusting thing is the fact that you're still arguing about this crap. You're not Naniwa, GOM, or MLG, so stop acting like you are.
User was warned for this post
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On December 19 2011 23:26 Hubris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 23:17 The Void wrote:
MLG stated multiple times that Naniwa got a spot in Code S. MLG is a partner of GOM in their exchange programm.
The player have to trust MLG (why shouldn't they until this incident).
So Naniwa should find a lawyer who takes legal actions against MLG. Than MLG could be forced to take on legal actions against GOM, or just say "ok it was our fault - we are sorry - we pay."
This would be the "professional" way to solve this whole disgusting situation.
But honestly i think Naniwa is tired of all that and just want to play quietly his game. Which is sad =[
E-Sports needs respectable organisations. The only disgusting thing is the fact that you're still arguing about this crap. You're not Naniwa, GOM, or MLG, so stop acting like you are.
And you aren't contributing to the conversation. You're just trolling him because you don't have anything coherent to say.
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I'm strongly inclined to NOT renew my subscription to GOMTV. Bullshit move on their part :o
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Sports team (at least football) put their team B on the field alot when the game doesnt matter....
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On December 19 2011 23:26 Hubris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 23:17 The Void wrote:
MLG stated multiple times that Naniwa got a spot in Code S. MLG is a partner of GOM in their exchange programm.
The player have to trust MLG (why shouldn't they until this incident).
So Naniwa should find a lawyer who takes legal actions against MLG. Than MLG could be forced to take on legal actions against GOM, or just say "ok it was our fault - we are sorry - we pay."
This would be the "professional" way to solve this whole disgusting situation.
But honestly i think Naniwa is tired of all that and just want to play quietly his game. Which is sad =[
E-Sports needs respectable organisations. The only disgusting thing is the fact that you're still arguing about this crap. You're not Naniwa, GOM, or MLG, so stop acting like you are.
lol?
would you please find another thread for talking bullshit?
this is not about me, or you! if you don't care about this you shouldn't post here.
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On December 19 2011 23:37 Ata wrote:
Sports team (at least football) put their team B on the field alot when the game doesnt matter....
B team is something different tough. What Naniwa did was not sending the B team but just sit with his butt on the field.
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United States5162 Posts
On December 19 2011 23:15 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 23:02 Tula wrote:On December 19 2011 22:50 chatuka wrote:On December 19 2011 22:42 Assirra wrote:On December 19 2011 22:36 chatuka wrote:
really, if the player earned a spot in a tournament and decides to not play his best, that is his decision and his fate. that player will lose fans, sponsors, whatever. I don't think there is any rule that says that you have to try your best. People play their best in tournaments because of Money. If the player doesn't want to do their best, then they lose money. It's very simple.
Unless there is conspiracy or collusion going on with Mafia gangs and sports betting, then there is a reason why you should ban a player (I.E savior)
It's ashame what happened at the Blizzard Cup, but I don't think Naniwa should lose his Code S spot. The more appropriate response would have been a reprimand or a warning. Maybe adding an addendum to the GSL contract that says that any player that purposely throws a game will be revoked of the GSL Code S spot. However, since what GOM is doing is Ex Post Facto, which means After the FACT.. That there is NO Rule in the contract or game that says that Probe Rushing is a violation of policy of the GSL Blizzard CUP.. Naniwa would probably win the lawsuit given the chance. but really the cost to sue GOM would be prohibitive, since paying lawyers would outweigh the the compensation you get if Naniwa retained the Code S spot Sigh, no he has 0% chance of winning a lawsuit. Gom never promised Naniwa a spot so good luck starting there. The one that promised him a spot was MLG and they said it was within the right of GOM to change it. So not only he would have no legg to stand on, it would cost him a ton of a cash and blacklist him from playing in korea again for a long while if not forever. That makes no sense. MLG should have not guaranteeed a Code S spot, if GOM can change the terms and conditions of a contract at any point. Contracts are binding. If they are not binding there is no point in having a contract, which is an agreement in paper. It is not a contract, when some corporate body can change the terms and conditions of a contract at any moments notice. Therefore, legally Naniwa does have a leg to stand on, since MLG lied to all the players, saying that there was a Guaranteed Code S spot for the 2nd place runner up for Providence MLG. My point is that GOM can not change the terms and conditions of a contract. And logically it makes sense. Why would Gom give the Code S spot to another foreigner, After MLG promised the Code S spot to the runner-up of MLG Providence? I am really disappointed in Gom position and supercelious attitude towards their ability to leverage power in any situation that benefits their interests. If I was a SC2 player, I would never play for GOM again after what they did to Naniwa.. Seriously some structure wouldn't hurt your post. Some understanding of legal aspects wouldn't hurt either. First you have not read the contract unlike MLG and Gom, so how can you assume what it says? The only information we have says that the "change" of Gom was within their purview. Therefor they did not break the contract. So no legally Naniwa does not have a leg to stand on, no matter how often you repeat it. Gom considers (or considered) the Blizzard Cup spot to be worth more than Code S and from their PoV it might even be. They saw this as the crowning event of the season where only the best of the best can compete. Did they behave correctly? Personally i feel they should have sent an email to Naniwa explaining this change, but what confuses me is why Naniwa or his team did not inquire about his so called Code S spot themselves. Wouldn't you plan ahead a bit if it was your life? A simple email asking for the schedule for the Code S season he has a spot for, including group ceremonies etc. so he can book a flight would have cleared up that confusion as well. Your second paragraph is even stranger... You say they cannot change the terms of a contract which might be true (we don't know the wording of the contract remember, we only know the PR announcements, not the footnotes and any possible appendixes) but you definitly can't state that as an absolute. Many contracts include clauses which can be changed sometimes by one party, at other times only by both parties together. Judging from MLG's post this contract included a Clause that it was Gom's decision what constitutes a Code S equivalent tournament. "Logically it makes sense" ? What makes sense logically? There is no logic in your post, and i clearly lack the proper reference for this it. it is not strange.. it is very logical to understand. GOM promised a Code S spot to the MLG Providence highest ranked non code S player. And for 2012 Gom TV reniged on that agreement with MLG providence and completely disregarded the meaning of the MLG Providence Tournament for many aspiring Players. We understand what the contract was about. There was no clause in the contract that said that GOM.TV had the right to re-distribute the Code S spot at the whimsical needs. IF there was SUCH a Clause, MLG would have announced that the Highest ranking Non Code S player would NOT be guaranteed the Code S spot... Do you understand.. That, MLG DID promise the Code S spot to the highest ranked non code S player acording to the agreement made with GOM.TV.. THerefore that agreement is a Legally binding contract. Gom.TV Can NOT re-nig on that contract made to MLG providence and conveniently write a New contract for 2012 therefore giveing some kind of faux semi legitimate excuse to NOT give the highest ranked Non Code S player at MLG providence the Code S spot..
You make a ton of assumptions about stuff you aren't privy to, and you don't know what you're talking about, plain and simple. MLG has stated the GOM was within their rights to change the deal. The fact that they made a press release stating the terms of the deal at the time is irreverent. That press release doesn't include the details of the contract and doesn't guarantee anything they said is even actually true.
To argue what GOM did was wrong or underhanded is fine, but legally there is no recourse against them or MLG.
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On December 19 2011 23:17 The Void wrote:
MLG stated multiple times that Naniwa got a spot in Code S. MLG is a partner of GOM in their exchange programm.
The player have to trust MLG (why shouldn't they until this incident).
So Naniwa should find a lawyer who takes legal actions against MLG. Than MLG could be forced to take on legal actions against GOM, or just say "ok it was our fault - we are sorry - we pay."
This would be the "professional" way to solve this whole disgusting situation.
But honestly i think Naniwa is tired of all that and just want to play quietly his game. Which is sad =[
E-Sports needs respectable organisations.
Ok but now the question.
What would he gain from it?
The dislike from a lot of ppl from the MLG case and maybe a lifetime ban in korean tournaments?
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On December 19 2011 23:32 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 23:26 Hubris wrote:On December 19 2011 23:17 The Void wrote:
MLG stated multiple times that Naniwa got a spot in Code S. MLG is a partner of GOM in their exchange programm.
The player have to trust MLG (why shouldn't they until this incident).
So Naniwa should find a lawyer who takes legal actions against MLG. Than MLG could be forced to take on legal actions against GOM, or just say "ok it was our fault - we are sorry - we pay."
This would be the "professional" way to solve this whole disgusting situation.
But honestly i think Naniwa is tired of all that and just want to play quietly his game. Which is sad =[
E-Sports needs respectable organisations. The only disgusting thing is the fact that you're still arguing about this crap. You're not Naniwa, GOM, or MLG, so stop acting like you are. And you aren't contributing to the conversation. You're just trolling him because you don't have anything coherent to say.
Ironically this sounds exactly like a lot of the GOM hating positions. The fact is, MLG has agreed GOM had the right to change the status. GOM has been changing the seeding system for months now, and the new seeding system is better than before. They're still awarding Code S to MLG performers... it's just not guaranteed. The only reason Naniwa didn't get his code S was his own immature actions, for which he apologized and AGREED with GOM over.
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EPT
