A formal letter to GOMTV and the StarCraft community from Quantic and NaNiwa
It isn't often that a relatively new team is thrust into controversy in such a significant way. Of course, one never asks or hopes to find themself in this sort of situation, as a team, as a player, or as a manager.
This is why we feel it both necessary and appropriate, as a team, and as a family, to sincerely and deeply apologize for the events that occurred during NaNiwa’s final match against NesTea on Day 2 of the Blizzcup 2011 Invitational Tournament, hosted at the GOM Studio in Seoul, South Korea.
As a team we value the fundamental principals of competitive pursuit: fair play, on a level playing field, where the rules are well understood, and the objectives clearly known. We believe in this case that those objectives were clearly known, but the pursuit was not proper, and this offended many fans, players, and officials.
We want to make it clear that we do not condone NaNiwa’s actions during his match against NesTea. We understand that GOMTV’s decision to revoke NaNiwa’s Code S spot for the next GSL season was not one that was made lightly. He has decided against participating in the coming GSL season as a statement of his sincere regret and in the hopes that he may have a future opportunity to compete in GSL against the world’s best. NaNiwa will continue to play for Quantic, and we will also continue to stand by NaNiwa as he learns and grows as a result of his mistakes.
While we respect and understand GOMTV’s existing decision, we implore GOMTV to consider giving NaNiwa a “second chance” to fulfill his dream to compete in GSL Code S in a future season. For fans, we ask only for your acceptance of our apology, on behalf of our player, and consider offering your patience, understanding, and perhaps your renewed faith in the future with and for NaNiwa.
NaNiwa’s statement and apology:
“After I played and lost 3 incredible close games, I was extremely upset with myself. I prepared a lot and wanted to show everyone – especially my Swedish fans – that I had what it takes to beat the best. Instead, I let everyone down.
I wasn’t thinking clearly, and acted unprofessionally. At first I didn’t realize how big of a deal it really was, but when I saw how much everyone wanted to see my game against NesTea, I felt terrible and truly began to realize what I had done. I first thought that the match against NesTea was meaningless, but now I realize that it really did mean a lot, and that there’s no such thing as a “meaningless game” in eSports.
I am sincerely sorry to all my fans that looked forward to our rematch. I had something very special prepared just for him, and I’m sure he had something just as special planned himself. To all Korean fans and pro-gamers, especially NesTea, I am so sorry if I offended you by doing what I did. When we meet again in a future match, you can all count on it being a match worth your while. I also want to apologize to Mr Chae, the directors, the casters and all the staff at GOMTV. I now understand how my poor decision disrespected all the hard work they put into running the GSL. I really hope that what I’ve done won’t damage eSports or GOMTV any further.
For a long time, I never really played this game for anyone else other than myself. Now, I realize that it involves so much more than that. I’m not alone playing from my home anymore; there are so many people watching my every game, and wanting to see me perform at my best. I don’t just play for myself anymore, but for all the fans of StarCraft 2 and eSports. Clearly, being a pro-gamer involves a lot more than I initially thought.”
NOTE: The words above were taken directly from NaNi through dictation, but were reviewed by an editor for grammar so long as those updates didn't change the meaning or the message as it was meant to be delivered. The final copy was proofed by NaNi before publication.
Pretty good statement. If it was more promt I'm sure alot of this drama could have been easily avoided . Or if GOM wasn't so rushed to make a descision and actually heard what Quantic and Nani had to say.
I respect the team, but have lost any respect to Naniwa or his cut & paste apology. Being an adult and a professional means being able to control yourself, which is something he has failed to show he is capable of time and time again. Also, i dislike the asking to reconsider for a second chance. He openly disrespected GOM during a tournament that was meant to celebrate a great year of StarCraft. It's only a month, he can and should wait. I don't understand where everyone gets this sense of entitlement from. You mess up, you accept your punishment, and you learn from it for next time.
well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
Thank god the Koreans have a sense of pride in what they do.
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
On December 15 2011 06:07 SeaSwift wrote: I don't think GOM are going to change their mind about this one, no matter the apologies, unfortunately for Naniwa.
I don't think they expect them to reinstate his Code S seed for the upcoming tournament. I think what they're saying is in light of this apology, they hope he'll receive a Code S invite in the future, as it seems that's the way GOM is doing their tournament now (IdrA and Sen Code S automatically).
When your own team doesn't condone your actions and makes formal apology is anyone still going to argue Naniwa is completely innocent? I don't get why people are still making threads or posting in others and arguing that Naniwa didn't do anything wrong. I truly hope Naniwa competes in prelims in the upcoming season instead of forfeiting completely and we can all put this behind us.
I think that if this had come out earlier it might have saved Naniwa's spot. It seems like the spot has already been given to someone else so I have a feeling it's too late.
Geeze, I can't shake the feeling that the Nani quote wasn't actually typed up by Nani himself but by some PR guy on the team. If you look at the grammar, sentence formations, etc. here and in every other interview or public statement Nani's made in the past, it's a completely different way of speaking.
On December 15 2011 06:08 LiamTheZerg wrote: I respect the team, but have lost any respect to Naniwa or his cut & paste apology. Being an adult and a professional means being able to control yourself, which is something he has failed to show he is capable of time and time again. Also, i dislike the asking to reconsider for a second chance. He openly disrespected GOM during a tournament that was meant to celebrate a great year of StarCraft. It's only a month, he can wait and should be. I don't understand where everyone gets this sense of entitlement from. You mess up, you accept your punishment, and you learn from it for next time.
Naniwa can't "learn from it[punishment for his actions] for next time" if there is no second chance to begin with.
Hopefully GOM will be willing to forgive and forget.
Nice statement, definately one of the things people needed to hear. Hope this will all just be in the past soon. Almost 2012 allready either way! another year for ESPORTS
I like Naniwa's statement, I hope that's actually from him, and that he actually understands. Everyone really did want to see him play that game really, really badly.
I really like how Quantic supports its players when they make a mistake. Standing behind his apology and asking for a second chance for him is actually a pretty big gesture for me.
Naniwa shouldn't have been so sincere, now people will say it's Copy/Paste or made up! There is no winning with haters Naniwa, but I do respect the apology.
I think this was a great apology from him, and if those arent just words and he actually changed his mindset, this may have even been a good thing. Anyway nice statements!
Well-written statement and good damage control by Quantic, thanks for the statement. Trusting his words to be true now and hold true in the future, best of luck to Naniwa as he continues his progaming career.
We understand that GOMTV’s decision to revoke NaNiwa’s Code S spot for the next GSL season was not one that was made lightly. He has decided against participating in the coming GSL season as a statement of his sincere regret and in the hopes that he may have a future opportunity to compete in GSL against the world’s best.
I don't exactly understand this. So they revoked his Code S spot and he decided against participating in the next GSL Season? Does it mean that he will participate in neither Up/Down / Code A or are they saying that both NaNiwa and GOM decided against him playing in Code S next season?
I think what he said last time was better. it does sound like him and i don't think a proplayer is more then a guy trying to get money and play the game you like.. all this respect and so on is to much..
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
Don't make Greece look worse than it already does in the international community. It's clearly not a game when people are dedicating their careers to it.
I hope that the apology reflects NaNiWa's thoughts and is not simply an expertly crafted apology letter from a publicist. That said I think it's time to move on...
Naniwa didnt do anything wrong. This statement just represents what he needs to say to appease the community. He has nothing to appologize for. imo, people are just getting their panties bunched up for nothing.
We understand that GOMTV’s decision to revoke NaNiwa’s Code S spot for the next GSL season was not one that was made lightly. He has decided against participating in the coming GSL season as a statement of his sincere regret and in the hopes that he may have a future opportunity to compete in GSL against the world’s best.
I don't exactly understand this. So they revoked his Code S spot and he decided against participating in the next GSL Season? Does it mean that he will participate in neither Up/Down / Code A or are they saying that both NaNiwa and GOM decided against him playing in Code S next season?
I really like this statement. I disagree with what Naniwa did but you can see he clearly knows that what he did was very unprofessional and is doing what he can to show people this. I'll admit reading this makes me feel bad for Naniwa, but the one thing people need to understand is that you need to take responsibility for your actions and sometimes that includes taking a punishment that you and others may feel is too harsh. I fully believe that this statement is Naniwa doing exactly that, taking responsibility even though he may be devastated by what has transpired.
I'll just let this be the end of my participation in this debate. Naniwa has gotten his punishment, have given his apology and it's all up to him to live up to it. If he can do it, he'll win people over eventually. If he can't we'll have more of these threads in the future.
On December 15 2011 06:08 Benjef wrote: Pretty good statement. If it was more promt I'm sure alot of this drama could have been easily avoided . Or if GOM wasn't so rushed to make a descision and actually heard what Quantic and Nani had to say.
Regardless whats done is done.
I wasn't aware that an apology suddenly fixes everything and removes any need for punishment. He may have apologized for it, but it doesn't suddenly make GOM's decision seem rushed...
Just like the previous unprofessional remarks made at MLG, can suddenly be made better because he apologized for it? That statement was probably written by some PR expert, and it is just a statement posted online. Even if it was written by someone else, I would take it more seriously if it was Naniwa verbally apologizing, rather than just a statement.
Progamers are people too. This should become a movie! "beneath the machine there lies a beating heart" Im glad that his team is standing by him instead of dumping him like most other teams would.
Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that. And hopefully with a straight, believable story of whether naniwa was 1) banned 2) had his qualification revoked as a consequence of his game against nestea 3) had his qualification revoked earlier as part of the overhaul of the system (though they didn't inform anyone, not even naniwa, of the changes) or 4) was never actually qualified.
On December 15 2011 06:08 LiamTheZerg wrote: I respect the team, but have lost any respect to Naniwa or his cut & paste apology. Being an adult and a professional means being able to control yourself, which is something he has failed to show he is capable of time and time again. Also, i dislike the asking to reconsider for a second chance. He openly disrespected GOM during a tournament that was meant to celebrate a great year of StarCraft. It's only a month, he can and should wait. I don't understand where everyone gets this sense of entitlement from. You mess up, you accept your punishment, and you learn from it for next time.
By giving Naniwa a second chance Quantic means they hope that GOM will consider giving Naniwa a future Code S seed, not taking back their decision. If anything, Naniwa is punishing himself even harder than GOM did by skipping the first GSL of 2012.
We understand that GOMTV’s decision to revoke NaNiwa’s Code S spot for the next GSL season was not one that was made lightly. He has decided against participating in the coming GSL season as a statement of his sincere regret and in the hopes that he may have a future opportunity to compete in GSL against the world’s best.
I don't exactly understand this. So they revoked his Code S spot and he decided against participating in the next GSL Season? Does it mean that he will participate in neither Up/Down / Code A or are they saying that both NaNiwa and GOM decided against him playing in Code S next season?
I think it just means Nani will refrain from even trying to qualify for Code A.
On December 15 2011 06:11 FidoDido wrote: When your own team doesn't condone your actions and makes formal apology is anyone still going to argue Naniwa is completely innocent? I don't get why people are still making threads or posting in others and arguing that Naniwa didn't do anything wrong. I truly hope Naniwa competes in prelims in the upcoming season instead of forfeiting completely and we can all put this behind us.
I think both Quantic and Naniwa understand that nothing good will come out of them arguing this further. GOMTV is to big and GSL to important to risk getting permbanned. They of course now that it was a childish thing of him to do so the best way to go is to just make an apologie and move on.
I think Quantic as well as the fans still belive though that GOMTV acted wrong and very rude and that they probably owe Naniwa an apologie of there own.
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
Idra never bm'd in the GSL for a reason. Idra knows how to keep his composure when it counts, which is what seperates him from Naniwa.
And yes, it's a game. A game that Mr. Chae has put a HUGE amount of time and money into and one that a lot of people are, you know, MAKING THEIR LIVING off of. I'm pretty sure Naniwa takes "that whole gaming thing" pretty seriously himself.
This is quite unfortunate that Naniwa is being made to apologize. I don't think him or ANY player should have to dance around like a clown for the Korean notion of "honour" and other such sentiments. This is supposedly a "Global" league and supposedly a Blizzard Cup. It's an insult to my intelligence as a viewer to expect me to care about a meaningless match. The least they could have done was put some small money on the line then. If not - don't have such a ridiculous group stage.
There has to be some kind of legal security if these tournaments are ever suppose to be taken seriously. If you do an action, you must be able to forsee the consequences based on the ruleset.
In no way can you foresee that doing a probe rush in a 100% worthless game in a completely different tournament would all of a sudden get you banned from Code S which you've already been granted a slot in. You can't have tournament organizers decide on a whim who gets banned and who gets special treatment.
So while Naniwa did something poorly, GomTV has as well.
On December 15 2011 06:14 RusHXceL wrote: Naniwa did NOT write that.
someone else did, just my opinion.
This is the first thing that came to mind. Or if he did write it, it was only after reading the same things over and over in threads and SOTG. It just didnt feel like it came from Naniwa in the slightest but I guess we'll see if he actually does start taking things more seriously as he takes part in more tournaments
NANI FIGHTNG.. so it was actually nanis idea not Gom's???? perhpas they would of punished him with a fine if Nani hadnt offered to pull out... the plot thickens.lol
I hope that Naniwa really learns about this experience, he's a awesome player, but he need to grow up as a man. Anyway, good luck him, and I can't wait to see him in the next tournament !
Hopefully Naniwa did learn something from this incident, there's a level of professionalism that one has to uphold when being labeled as one. I love the fact that Naniwa only cares about winning tournaments above everything, but he did make the incorrect decision, and he is suffering the punishment. I'm glad he's taking it like a man though, good on him. Hopefully he'll be able to make it to code S later on in 2012.
On December 15 2011 06:12 WCX wrote: Geeze, I can't shake the feeling that the Nani quote wasn't actually typed up by Nani himself but by some PR guy on the team. If you look at the grammar, sentence formations, etc. here and in every other interview or public statement Nani's made in the past, it's a completely different way of speaking.
I think it's pretty obvious some helped him phrase that, and told him what issues he should address as this is an official statement but I still believe it's real
On December 15 2011 06:11 FidoDido wrote: When your own team doesn't condone your actions and makes formal apology is anyone still going to argue Naniwa is completely innocent? I don't get why people are still making threads or posting in others and arguing that Naniwa didn't do anything wrong. I truly hope Naniwa competes in prelims in the upcoming season instead of forfeiting completely and we can all put this behind us.
I think both Quantic and Naniwa understand that nothing good will come out of them arguing this further. GOMTV is to big and GSL to important to risk getting permbanned. They of course now that it was a childish thing of him to do so the best way to go is to just make an apologie and move on.
I think Quantic as well as the fans still belive though that GOMTV acted wrong and very rude and that they probably owe Naniwa an apologie of there own.
That's pretty much it. This a generous bone thrown solely to satisfy the hate train. Pretty soon another controversy will open up in esports land and this will all be forgotten.
I've still made up my mind not to support GOM for the next few months though, and no amount of reciprocation from them will solve that. They left me, as a consumer, with a very sour taste in my mouth about their product and what it stands for.
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
These are some really wise and mature words, I sincerely hope that he indeed feels this way, because that would make me respect him (which I already do, mind you!) SO much more - Showing that you're able to improve beyond improving your game, to become a better, cooler person makes him pretty badass.
On December 15 2011 06:08 LiamTheZerg wrote: I respect the team, but have lost any respect to Naniwa or his cut & paste apology. Being an adult and a professional means being able to control yourself, which is something he has failed to show he is capable of time and time again. Also, i dislike the asking to reconsider for a second chance. He openly disrespected GOM during a tournament that was meant to celebrate a great year of StarCraft. It's only a month, he can and should wait. I don't understand where everyone gets this sense of entitlement from. You mess up, you accept your punishment, and you learn from it for next time.
Gom didn't man up & take the blame & you're not criticizing that.. They didn't even apologize to the fans for the horrible tournament format that allowed this to happen - Naniwa did man up & apologize. If you read his statement you can see he's genuinely confused about this situation.
On December 15 2011 06:08 LiamTheZerg wrote: I respect the team, but have lost any respect to Naniwa or his cut & paste apology. Being an adult and a professional means being able to control yourself, which is something he has failed to show he is capable of time and time again. Also, i dislike the asking to reconsider for a second chance. He openly disrespected GOM during a tournament that was meant to celebrate a great year of StarCraft. It's only a month, he can and should wait. I don't understand where everyone gets this sense of entitlement from. You mess up, you accept your punishment, and you learn from it for next time.
Gom didn't man up & take the blame & you're not criticizing that.. They didn't even apologize to the fans for the horrible tournament format that allowed this to happen - Naniwa did man up & apologize. If you read his statement you can see he's genuinely confused about this situation.
We understand that GOMTV’s decision to revoke NaNiwa’s Code S spot for the next GSL season was not one that was made lightly. He has decided against participating in the coming GSL season as a statement of his sincere regret and in the hopes that he may have a future opportunity to compete in GSL against the world’s best.
I don't exactly understand this. So they revoked his Code S spot and he decided against participating in the next GSL Season? Does it mean that he will participate in neither Up/Down / Code A or are they saying that both NaNiwa and GOM decided against him playing in Code S next season?
I think he's saying he feels bad about it so he's not going to try to qualify into Code A next season as an additional, self imposed punishment.
Anyway props for releasing the statement. It wouldn't surprise if Nani really didn't realize he was doing something so dumb, so hopefully like he said he'll think more next time.
Naniwa should remember where this game came from and how much people would fight for just a chance to play “meaningless game” against a top korean.
As many of the old school Broodwar fans remember the tornys didn't used to be about the money or to advance in a bracket, it was for the honor to play against the best and give it all you've got.
It's really a cultural gap. Not even IdrA would dare to do what Naniwa has done, while IN Korea. IdrA spent years in Korea to understand Korean culture (perhaps respect, status quo... etc) and then to get some respects from the Koreans. Naniwa has yet to do that.
Even though I have gone on and on about how I believe that Naniwa was the one in the wrong in this situation, that doesn't mean I hate Naniwa. I'm sure this will be a great learning experience for him and that he'll be able to come back stronger. I've seen many of his interviews and I believe he has the dedication to not give up despite this setback.
On December 15 2011 06:08 LiamTheZerg wrote: I respect the team, but have lost any respect to Naniwa or his cut & paste apology. Being an adult and a professional means being able to control yourself, which is something he has failed to show he is capable of time and time again. Also, i dislike the asking to reconsider for a second chance. He openly disrespected GOM during a tournament that was meant to celebrate a great year of StarCraft. It's only a month, he can and should wait. I don't understand where everyone gets this sense of entitlement from. You mess up, you accept your punishment, and you learn from it for next time.
Gom didn't man up & take the blame & you're not criticizing that.. They didn't even apologize to the fans for the horrible tournament format that allowed this to happen - Naniwa did man up & apologize. If you read his statement you can see he's genuinely confused about this situation.
Silly bias is silly..
because GOM didn't do anything wrong and have nothing to apologize for? don't like the format? don't accept the invitation and play in their tournament.
I hope he means it and this isn't just his team covering his ass. If so, great and hopefully this doesn't happen again in the future so we can watch entertaining games no matter the position.
If that statement from Nani is genuine I really feel sorry for what happened to him and I'll root for him again. Somehow it seems like damage control from Quantic. Although if Nani truely thinks this I hope Gom gives him an code a/s seed for GSL February.
On December 15 2011 06:11 FidoDido wrote: When your own team doesn't condone your actions and makes formal apology is anyone still going to argue Naniwa is completely innocent? I don't get why people are still making threads or posting in others and arguing that Naniwa didn't do anything wrong. I truly hope Naniwa competes in prelims in the upcoming season instead of forfeiting completely and we can all put this behind us.
No matter whether Quantic thinks Naniwa is innocent or not, they'd be fools to not make a public apology after GOM has taken action.
IMHO- They should do a show match Naniwa vs Nestea bo7 for lets say 500$. Then Quantic would be truly trying to put this behind (+we would get to watch a really good series)
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
Thank god we are not like you and take Esports seriously.
This whole situation is very very unfortunate for everyone involved I just hope that everyone learns from it and we can put this behind us in the new year.
I personally look forward to an improved Naniwa comming back with a new attitude, and to GOM not trying their best to ruin their own tournaments with stupid formats
good PR move. unfortunately, its hard to find it sincere when it is vetted by the team and numerous drafts have probably been considered and rejected. i'll err on the side of sincerity though even though his post-game interview was probably more in align with his real thoughts.
edit: in his interview he said if he did it again, he would just do a meaningless 4-gate.
with only 5 GSL's next year with each season lasting 2 months
it might be awhile before he can reach code S, punishment was too severe
I thought he was going to be upset with GOM and maybe even quit trying to get into GSL after this incident but I'm glad he changed his outlook and is still considering to participate in future GSL's.
that whole clearly progaming isnt just what i thought. Probably wasn't necessary at the end but a good apology.Naniwa its like you came from final fantasy seven into final fantasyX and people thought it was the end but then you came back and realized how great final fantasy was in the first place. NANIWA FTW
I wonder if the same people saying Naniwa had this written by a PR guy, are the same people saying that in sports teams have to play games that don't matter. Would be kind of funny if they are.
On December 15 2011 06:08 LiamTheZerg wrote: I respect the team, but have lost any respect to Naniwa or his cut & paste apology. Being an adult and a professional means being able to control yourself, which is something he has failed to show he is capable of time and time again. Also, i dislike the asking to reconsider for a second chance. He openly disrespected GOM during a tournament that was meant to celebrate a great year of StarCraft. It's only a month, he can and should wait. I don't understand where everyone gets this sense of entitlement from. You mess up, you accept your punishment, and you learn from it for next time.
Gom didn't man up & take the blame & you're not criticizing that.. They didn't even apologize to the fans for the horrible tournament format that allowed this to happen - Naniwa did man up & apologize. If you read his statement you can see he's genuinely confused about this situation.
Silly bias is silly..
because GOM didn't do anything wrong and have nothing to apologize for? don't like the format? don't accept the invitation and play in their tournament.
Sorry, gom's tournament allowed it to happen. A really simple fix would have made it impossible, and when it happened it's all the player's fault cause it isn't in the rules. You don't have to be so emotionless and accept any and anything gomtv says as law.
On December 15 2011 06:19 twndomn wrote: It's really a cultural gap. Not even IdrA would dare to do what Naniwa has done, while IN Korea. IdrA spent years in Korea to understand Korean culture (perhaps respect, status quo... etc) and then to get some respects from the Koreans. Naniwa has yet to do that.
I think it's a cultural gap both ways. I think if Sundance was in Mr. Chae's position, you'd see the league taking responsibility for the format and not punishing the player this harshly. Both parties have been disrespectful and acted inappropriately. One has apologized and taken responsibility and now the other ought to.
On December 15 2011 06:11 FidoDido wrote: When your own team doesn't condone your actions and makes formal apology is anyone still going to argue Naniwa is completely innocent? I don't get why people are still making threads or posting in others and arguing that Naniwa didn't do anything wrong. I truly hope Naniwa competes in prelims in the upcoming season instead of forfeiting completely and we can all put this behind us.
The main point people were trying to make isn't whether or not naniwa was right/wrong. It's that the punishment came out of nowhere and was too harsh. But there are other threads for that.
Nice statement from naniwa and quantic, nice to see he realized the implications of what he did, hopefully now the koreans and Mr. Chae will also see how much of an overreaction there was around this incident.
On December 15 2011 06:16 ThatGuy89 wrote: sorry, what exactly did naniwa do? i havent watched much sc2 in a while (fucking skyrim -_-)
He did a worker rush in a game against Nestea when they were both 0-3 in the group and neither had any chance of qualifing further..
lmao is that it? or was there some BM?
ok i can kinnd of see why thats bad, but this much drama?
That was absolutely everything that happened, nothing else.
There was this much drama because there's many people who just jumps on the hatewagon instantly simply because it's Naniwa whom has a history of being bm even if he's stated and proven that he's completely different from before.
On December 15 2011 06:17 Paladia wrote: There has to be some kind of legal security if these tournaments are ever suppose to be taken seriously. If you do an action, you must be able to forsee the consequences based on the ruleset.
In no way can you foresee that doing a probe rush in a 100% worthless game in a completely different tournament would all of a sudden get you banned from Code S which you've already been granted a slot in. You can't have tournament organizers decide on a whim who gets banned and who gets special treatment.
So while Naniwa did something poorly, GomTV has as well.
I would disagree entirely, even though it's not really a good place in this thread, though by the same token, your post has no place in this thread either.
You even pretending GSL isn't taken seriously is ignorant at the very best. Beyond that, are you really suggesting that players need specific rules to conduct themselves appropriately and professionally? Really? And it's not up to tournaments to decide what is and isn't proper in the first place? I'm sorry if you don't feel that players should act professionally because "they're just people" or whatever argument you'd like to make, but it's past time that people understand that SC is something that's going to take itself seriously and have standards, and when you violate those standards it's bad for everyone in esports, and beyond that, no one person is above that just because they have some fans.
On December 15 2011 06:08 LiamTheZerg wrote: I respect the team, but have lost any respect to Naniwa or his cut & paste apology. Being an adult and a professional means being able to control yourself, which is something he has failed to show he is capable of time and time again. Also, i dislike the asking to reconsider for a second chance. He openly disrespected GOM during a tournament that was meant to celebrate a great year of StarCraft. It's only a month, he can and should wait. I don't understand where everyone gets this sense of entitlement from. You mess up, you accept your punishment, and you learn from it for next time.
Gom didn't man up & take the blame & you're not criticizing that.. They didn't even apologize to the fans for the horrible tournament format that allowed this to happen - Naniwa did man up & apologize. If you read his statement you can see he's genuinely confused about this situation.
On December 15 2011 06:08 LiamTheZerg wrote: I respect the team, but have lost any respect to Naniwa or his cut & paste apology. Being an adult and a professional means being able to control yourself, which is something he has failed to show he is capable of time and time again. Also, i dislike the asking to reconsider for a second chance. He openly disrespected GOM during a tournament that was meant to celebrate a great year of StarCraft. It's only a month, he can and should wait. I don't understand where everyone gets this sense of entitlement from. You mess up, you accept your punishment, and you learn from it for next time.
Gom didn't man up & take the blame & you're not criticizing that.. They didn't even apologize to the fans for the horrible tournament format that allowed this to happen - Naniwa did man up & apologize. If you read his statement you can see he's genuinely confused about this situation.
Silly bias is silly..
because GOM didn't do anything wrong and have nothing to apologize for? don't like the format? don't accept the invitation and play in their tournament.
Naniwa had no obligation to do no more than a probe rush.. He did what he was there to do no more & no less. Naniwa technically did nothing wrong - anyone uncapable of seeing this need to watch SOTG & see liquid tyler spitting truth.. The summery of it being he didn't do what was right for anyone but he did fulfill his obligation to the tournament. And if Gom wants more than that they need to make rules to support that.
Heh, it's impossible to read everything, as the thread grows faster than I can read it
However, I feel like this apology really is coming from Naniwa, which means (if it really is coming from him) that he has grown A LOT during this one day. All respect. Quantic is a team to respect, and maybe at least I will have a better eye for Naniwa
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
Thank God my IQ is above 25. Soccer is a game. Baseball is a game. Cricket is a game. All sports are just games.
Flip that coin...
They are also professionals....get out of the dainty dark hole you were born in and come out into the real world. Idra never throws games. He'll leave when he thinks he can't win even if it's a misunderstanding. I'm sure NaNiwa didn't think he would win from the start with the probe rush. It was blatant.
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
They won't though. Right now they are acting like the big boy in the room and hiding behind a false moral high ground. Recent statements from them and their community indicate that they cannot and will not recognize that their format had any part in precipitating this situation.
LMAO! The Quantic statement was pretty standard. But Naniwa's apology.... I bet 100 bucks that this is absolutely not from him. I couldnt stop laughing once I pictured Naniwa makes this statement ^^
Should put a video showing Naniwa reading the pre-written apology statement with dead face and anger in his eyes
Another meaningless PR. Naniwa doesn't think one second that he plays for anyone other than himself. That's how he is that good. Call it selfish all you want, that's HIS way of achievement. Still it's sad for everyone.
On December 15 2011 06:16 ThatGuy89 wrote: sorry, what exactly did naniwa do? i havent watched much sc2 in a while (fucking skyrim -_-)
He did a worker rush in a game against Nestea when they were both 0-3 in the group and neither had any chance of qualifing further..
lmao is that it? or was there some BM?
ok i can kinnd of see why thats bad, but this much drama?
Yes, that's it, there was no other BM or words uttered. Not even sure why this even created any attention what-so-ever, but I suppose a lot of people enjoy hating on Naniwa for some reason.
It was nice and mature of QG and NaNiwa to apologize. I like NaNiwa when he plays his game. He's a damn dangerous protoss and I, as he even said, really wanted to see him take on the world's best zerg, Nestea. I was very disappointed.
It seems everyone involved is handling this appropriately - Naniwa made a mistake, GOM punished him with the consequences, and now Naniwa is apologizing and moving forward. He seems sincere, and I don't have any reason to disbelieve his apology.
Credit to GOM for upholding a standard of conduct, but also give credit to Naniwa and Quantic for saying "Hey, we made a big mistake. We understand the consequences, won't do it again, take our punishment, and move forward."
This is just a learning experience for the whole eSports community. If you want to be viewed as a professional, you have to act like one as well.
On December 15 2011 06:23 KimJongIlJr wrote: Khaldor tried to ask him a bit ago on his stream about the Blizzard cup. His response? "Shit happens"
Take that as you will.
he understandably doesnt want to involve himself in more discussion about what he did and why, its just been a day since it happened and probably just wants to move on and focus on other things. besides there is already an official statement so he has nothign to add
Really nice job by Quantic. Of all parties involved in this drama including the korean pro players and team Quantic act the best way stay silent at first and then issue a proper response and action.
nani shouldnt have to apologize for this, game throwing is very common and he just did it blatantly. not buying gom ticket because of how this was handled.
On December 15 2011 06:19 twndomn wrote: It's really a cultural gap. Not even IdrA would dare to do what Naniwa has done, while IN Korea. IdrA spent years in Korea to understand Korean culture (perhaps respect, status quo... etc) and then to get some respects from the Koreans. Naniwa has yet to do that.
I think it's a cultural gap both ways. I think if Sundance was in Mr. Chae's position, you'd see the league taking responsibility for the format and not punishing the player this harshly. Both parties have been disrespectful and acted inappropriately. One has apologized and taken responsibility and now the other ought to.
I think it's really clear, as doa mentions, that the format was the way it was because it was, along with a big cash tournament, also supposed to be a showmatch for the fans. I'm sorry that Nani was out of contention, but it's not like they set it up to mercilessly make out of contention players play each other
On December 15 2011 06:17 Paladia wrote: There has to be some kind of legal security if these tournaments are ever suppose to be taken seriously. If you do an action, you must be able to forsee the consequences based on the ruleset.
In no way can you foresee that doing a probe rush in a 100% worthless game in a completely different tournament would all of a sudden get you banned from Code S which you've already been granted a slot in. You can't have tournament organizers decide on a whim who gets banned and who gets special treatment.
So while Naniwa did something poorly, GomTV has as well.
I would disagree entirely, even though it's not really a good place in this thread, though by the same token, your post has no place in this thread either.
You even pretending GSL isn't taken seriously is ignorant at the very best. Beyond that, are you really suggesting that players need specific rules to conduct themselves appropriately and professionally? Really? And it's not up to tournaments to decide what is and isn't proper in the first place? I'm sorry if you don't feel that players should act professionally because "they're just people" or whatever argument you'd like to make, but it's past time that people understand that SC is something that's going to take itself seriously and have standards, and when you violate those standards it's bad for everyone in esports, and beyond that, no one person is above that just because they have some fans.
Then those standards should be published in non-vague terms that are purposefully left open for arbitrary interpretation.
Hopefully we can all shut up and move on now, good statements by Quantic and Naniwa. I feel like the game shouldn't have happened to begin with, but I guess this is an alright solution
On December 15 2011 06:19 twndomn wrote: It's really a cultural gap. Not even IdrA would dare to do what Naniwa has done, while IN Korea. IdrA spent years in Korea to understand Korean culture (perhaps respect, status quo... etc) and then to get some respects from the Koreans. Naniwa has yet to do that.
I think it's a cultural gap both ways. I think if Sundance was in Mr. Chae's position, you'd see the league taking responsibility for the format and not punishing the player this harshly. Both parties have been disrespectful and acted inappropriately. One has apologized and taken responsibility and now the other ought to.
I agree but there is one big difference.
Naniwa is an idividual while GOMTV is a company that should ALWAYS act correctly and professionally. This is why it is extremely disappointing seeing such a reaction from GOMTV; they reacted like an emotional individual (exactly like Naniwa during that game) while they should be the ones setting the bar for quality and great example. On the top of that because they applied this rule this way, they created a double standard by not applying it in other cases prior to this one, which makes them loose credibility as an institution and as an eSPORTS medium.
GOMTV should rethink their action and admit they over reacted.
Gom expects players to be robots. They are not, they have feelings and can express them in any shape or form. What's next? Warnings for using manner mules?This game will become as stale as golf...
On December 15 2011 06:19 twndomn wrote: It's really a cultural gap. Not even IdrA would dare to do what Naniwa has done, while IN Korea. IdrA spent years in Korea to understand Korean culture (perhaps respect, status quo... etc) and then to get some respects from the Koreans. Naniwa has yet to do that.
I think it's a cultural gap both ways. I think if Sundance was in Mr. Chae's position, you'd see the league taking responsibility for the format and not punishing the player this harshly. Both parties have been disrespectful and acted inappropriately. One has apologized and taken responsibility and now the other ought to.
i'm also interested to see whether this happens. however, i don't think it will, and i don't think this apology is written in a way that suggests naniwa or quantic expect it to, either.
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
I don't think you even know anything about pro-gaming or what's happening in the world in terms of e-Sports.
He's getting paid to play this game, and his team spends a ton of money to send him to Korea and then GSL. People are paying to watch those games (VODS and HD) and saying "ITS A GAME WTF" is totally retarded. It's like saying a professional basketball player denying to play with his shirt off, cause its just a game right?
Also saying "thank god we are not like koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously" is just your point of view. A ton of people in the West take this game very seriously. Do your reading please...
Fucking thrash koreans bitching like whore niggers about their pro bullshit suck a big fucking dick it makes me so fucking mad when they think they are so superior.
Organize a bo5 or bo7 showmatch pitting Naniwa against Nestea. Put up a $1000 prize pool, have of the prize pool goes to the winner while the other half goes to the winner's choice of charity.
This would give the fans the "rival match" that was "stolen" from them and it would be good PR. This would also help mend the relationship between Naniwa/Quantic and the e-sport community.
Pretty painfull to see a honest guy like Naniwa have to do this ceromonial dance to please the community. All he wants to do is play his game, when he loses he wants to gtfo and prepare for the next competition. The world is what it is, ppl need their drama, acting, and fake games.
I'm glad Naniwa is able to come out with such a graceful public apology as it speaks volume of not just his character, but the character of his team as well. Now that he has politely apologized, as a community we should learn from these errors and see that such a debacle doesn't happen in the future.
Excellent statement. Quantic proving to be an extremely professional team and Naniwa showing great maturity in his statement. This is definitely a learning experience for BOTH parties. I'm sure if Naniwa is really Code S class, I expect to see him in Code S fairly soon .
This whole story is pathetic Naniwa did nothing wrong by probe rushing it's the tournament format that is fucked up. I'm disapointed that Naniwa apologized though he should assume his acts proudly not surrendering to those silly pieces of shit.
Hope this words are true from Nani. If so, here is for his return to Code S as soon as possible.
On December 15 2011 06:28 Wicelo wrote: This whole story is pathetic Naniwa did nothing wrong by probe rushing it's the tournament format that is fucked up. I'm disapointed that Naniwa apologized though he should assume his acts proudly not surrendering to those silly pieces of shit.
He apologized because that is what the Koreans expected for sure. As I said before, let´s hope the apologies were sincere.
On December 15 2011 06:14 Roxy wrote: Naniwa didnt do anything wrong. This statement just represents what he needs to say to appease the community. He has nothing to appologize for. imo, people are just getting their panties bunched up for nothing.
Indeed. It leaves a bitter taste in the mouth.
I suppose Naniwa had better jump through there hoops for now. Learn how to throw games the Korean way, 4-gating or cannon rushing and learn to lie when hes interviewed afterwards on the strategy to maintain some level of plausible deniability.
On December 15 2011 06:27 felle wrote: Fucking thrash koreans bitching like whore niggers about their pro bullshit suck a big fucking dick it makes me so fucking mad when they think they are so superior.
wtf dude... altough i can understand that you are mad at them....wtf dude
Even if it is too late to fix the situation I think that it is good that Naniwa realizes that he is not just playing for himself and that there other expecting to see more from him then what happened here. I hope that the statement that has been put out is true and that all parties involved truely feel what they have said in this statement. I do hope see Naniwa playing again soon.
Yeah I think that some of it does come from his history but even though I respect so much Quantic for sticking behind Naniwa and saying he is our player in our "family" and we want to help him in any way possible and stick by him through thick and thin because Naniwa is truly a great player and I have gained much respect for both Naniwa and Quantic Gaming
A well written apology by Quantic and Naniwa. I just find this part a bit strange:
On December 15 2011 06:04 QuanticGaming wrote: While we respect and understand GOMTV’s existing decision, we implore GOMTV to consider giving NaNiwa a “second chance” to fulfill his dream to compete in GSL Code S in a future season.
On December 15 2011 06:27 jazzyjazz wrote: Hey Quantic Gaming,
Organize a bo5 or bo7 showmatch pitting Naniwa against Nestea. Put up a $1000 prize pool, have of the prize pool goes to the winner while the other half goes to the winner's choice of charity.
This would give the fans the "rival match" that was "stolen" from them and it would be good PR. This would also help mend the relationship between Naniwa/Quantic and the e-sport community.
i totally agree with this. An apology while laughing behind the scenes is a bit to little.
Quantic makes a statement for naniwa to "give" he is still one of the best player in the world, Code A player that can't get out of the open bracket in MLG moves on to bashing Idra or Sen , kids will keeps about "hurting esport" ,gom keeps the stupid format and kespa-ish rules... everyone is happy.
On December 15 2011 06:27 felle wrote: Fucking thrash koreans bitching like whore niggers about their pro bullshit suck a big fucking dick it makes me so fucking mad when they think they are so superior.
On December 15 2011 06:23 KimJongIlJr wrote: Khaldor tried to ask him a bit ago on his stream about the Blizzard cup. His response? "Shit happens"
Take that as you will.
Actually, that was regarding the fact that he lost all his games, not about his drone rush. Don't spread misinformation, please.
Not entirely related but, on Khaldor stream, while watching Goody play a few minutes ago, Nani said he once played goody and only had 5 probes left vs 30 of Goody and stayed in the game because "well, it's goody". And then he added "I should have 5 probe rushed him". Anyone who can appreciate his extremely dry humor and arrogance should turn to it right now, it's gold. For the others, it's probably better to just do sthg else. I'm dreaming of a Khaldor+Idra+Naniwa casting evening in Korea in the near future.
Edit :as for the apology, I think it's a formal thing, it's good he's done it, cultural differences are what they are, he'll learn as he stays in Korea, the situation didn't require more than this.
This is good, professional, overall wonderful. Now it might actually open up an opportunity for GOM to save face in terms of how they acted, getting together, being a bit diplomatic, you know, grown up stuff without having to rethink measure or having to step back on decisions. If he gets a second chance next season I guess 90% of people would be very fine with it although still a little mad as the internet usually is.
Quantic is standing by its players despite all the shitstorm, I really respect that. And I think they dealt with the situation almost perfectly.
And Naniwa, I'm still a fan. Just think things through before doing stuff like this next time I guess. We all know the rationale behind his decision, just in that context it was not really appropriate.
On December 15 2011 06:08 LiamTheZerg wrote: I respect the team, but have lost any respect to Naniwa or his cut & paste apology.
Because Naniwa is the first player to ever cheese in a tournament. Good point.
Naniwa didn't cheese, he did something that he knew had a 0% of winning. When people cheese, they do it because they have a chance to win. Nani admitted he didn't try. If you don't like the punishment, fine, but don't pretend like what Nani did was a legitimate try. Just look at the VOD.
On December 15 2011 06:08 LiamTheZerg wrote: I respect the team, but have lost any respect to Naniwa or his cut & paste apology. Being an adult and a professional means being able to control yourself, which is something he has failed to show he is capable of time and time again. Also, i dislike the asking to reconsider for a second chance. He openly disrespected GOM during a tournament that was meant to celebrate a great year of StarCraft. It's only a month, he can and should wait. I don't understand where everyone gets this sense of entitlement from. You mess up, you accept your punishment, and you learn from it for next time.
Gom didn't man up & take the blame & you're not criticizing that.. They didn't even apologize to the fans for the horrible tournament format that allowed this to happen - Naniwa did man up & apologize. If you read his statement you can see he's genuinely confused about this situation.
Silly bias is silly..
because GOM didn't do anything wrong and have nothing to apologize for? don't like the format? don't accept the invitation and play in their tournament.
Sorry, gom's tournament allowed it to happen. A really simple fix would have made it impossible, and when it happened it's all the player's fault cause it isn't in the rules. You don't have to be so emotionless and accept any and anything gomtv says as law.
guess what? it's also not in the rules that says gom can't disqualify players they think behaved unprofessionally in their tounament. oh and there's also no rule that says you can't take a shit in your own booth. someone needs to do that so they can criticize gom for not implementing a rule to prevent that from happening in the first place.
On December 15 2011 06:17 Paladia wrote: There has to be some kind of legal security if these tournaments are ever suppose to be taken seriously. If you do an action, you must be able to forsee the consequences based on the ruleset.
In no way can you foresee that doing a probe rush in a 100% worthless game in a completely different tournament would all of a sudden get you banned from Code S which you've already been granted a slot in. You can't have tournament organizers decide on a whim who gets banned and who gets special treatment.
So while Naniwa did something poorly, GomTV has as well.
I would disagree entirely, even though it's not really a good place in this thread, though by the same token, your post has no place in this thread either.
You even pretending GSL isn't taken seriously is ignorant at the very best. Beyond that, are you really suggesting that players need specific rules to conduct themselves appropriately and professionally? Really? And it's not up to tournaments to decide what is and isn't proper in the first place? I'm sorry if you don't feel that players should act professionally because "they're just people" or whatever argument you'd like to make, but it's past time that people understand that SC is something that's going to take itself seriously and have standards, and when you violate those standards it's bad for everyone in esports, and beyond that, no one person is above that just because they have some fans.
As a law student myself, yes, I think they should have clear rules so people know what is allowed and what isn't. It is very important that people can forsee the consequences of their actions. If Naniwa knew that the result of a worker rush in a meaningless game would mean a ban from Code S he wouldn't do it, that is 100% for certain. No one can say that they could forsee the consequences of that action prior to the game and as such, there is no legal security.
Hopefully, GOM will, after this apology that saves them some face, realize that perhaps they went overboard and part of the fault is on them. My prediction is that they will allow Naniwa to keep his Code S spot but won't be able to use it this upcoming season but rather has to wait for the next.
On December 15 2011 06:28 Wicelo wrote: This whole story is pathetic Naniwa did nothing wrong by probe rushing it's the tournament format that is fucked up. I'm disapointed that Naniwa apologized though he should assume his acts proudly not surrendering to those silly pieces of shit.
some times you just need to suck up your pride and fake sincerity
..just like he apparently should have faked that game
this statement is probably what is best for naniwa. he has nothing to gain from sticking to what he and we know was right. the people in charge have a differing opinion and they hold the hammer
On December 15 2011 06:27 felle wrote: Fucking thrash koreans bitching like whore niggers about their pro bullshit suck a big fucking dick it makes me so fucking mad when they think they are so superior.
LOL wow what garbage. Nobody thinks they are superior and I'm glad the matter is resolved now
On December 15 2011 06:27 felle wrote: Fucking thrash koreans bitching like whore niggers about their pro bullshit suck a big fucking dick it makes me so fucking mad when they think they are so superior.
<3 naniwa, really hope (and think) gom will give him a 2nd chance at code S if he can prove he's sincere behind his apology. I, as a fan of Naniwa and Nestea, highly look forward to their rematch, and only hope its at the finals of a Code S season
Of every emotion I've felt as a fan of Foreigners and of Nestea over the past 24 hours, the main one is this: I really hope that Naniwa gets back into Code S.
On December 15 2011 06:27 Fjodorov wrote: Pretty painfull to see a honest guy like Naniwa have to do this ceromonial dance to please the community. All he wants to do is play his game, when he loses he wants to gtfo and prepare for the next competition. The world is what it is, ppl need their drama, acting, and fake games.
This... Sucks that gom is to powerful to just say "fuck em"... Nani just wants to play and they force him through all this shit.. Still well managed by quantic, although its nothing but ass kissing really.
Guess you just have to bite the sour apple sometimes.. Keep fighting nani, dont become a korean robot please <3
some of you guys are hillarious, you all complain about lack of professionalism, but if quantic and nani do a professional statment, which is obviously written by people from PR, you complain thats this is not by nani....
I doubt any star writes his statements him/her self, why should a pro player do?
decide what your oppinion is, and stop hate'ing....
thumbs up nani&quantic, live goes on, keep your heads up guys
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
thank god not every one thinks like you do
Thank god not everyone thinks like you do. The entire world would be north korea where doing anything that isnt ok by the leaders will get you hung.
On December 15 2011 06:19 twndomn wrote: It's really a cultural gap. Not even IdrA would dare to do what Naniwa has done, while IN Korea. IdrA spent years in Korea to understand Korean culture (perhaps respect, status quo... etc) and then to get some respects from the Koreans. Naniwa has yet to do that.
I think it's a cultural gap both ways. I think if Sundance was in Mr. Chae's position, you'd see the league taking responsibility for the format and not punishing the player this harshly. Both parties have been disrespectful and acted inappropriately. One has apologized and taken responsibility and now the other ought to.
Quoting this, because I can't say it better myself.
Hopefully the situation can be rectified so Naniwa can play Code S in January. Hope for the best for all of the involved parties.
On December 15 2011 06:27 Fjodorov wrote: Pretty painfull to see a honest guy like Naniwa have to do this ceromonial dance to please the community. All he wants to do is play his game, when he loses he wants to gtfo and prepare for the next competition. The world is what it is, ppl need their drama, acting, and fake games.
I would have to agree with this...
But in any case, i think it's for the best if we just get past this whole incident, the sooner the better.
On December 15 2011 06:04 QuanticGaming wrote: While we respect and understand GOMTV’s existing decision, we implore GOMTV to consider giving NaNiwa a “second chance” to fulfill his dream to compete in GSL Code S in a future season.
Isn't implore too strong of a word?
Nah, it's fine.
Well written statement (for once, in this matter). I'm done with this now. So should the rest of you be...
Feel so bad for him. What he did was wrong, but i'm not sure if I agree with the punishment. Will he be in Code A, or does he have to go through qualifiers?
You have to realize that Gom is also producing for a korean audience, who I'm guessing are not as 'positive' about this as a lot of the people on these forums. Gom had no choice but to punish in some way, and its relatively light compared to what they dish out to koreans.
Also, Quantic is a professional team and I'm sure they've spoken to the GSL management about this. They aren't pulling him out of code A for no reason for a full season. They're obviously trying to create a solution where Nani repents with a nice holiday in January (god knows he has the cash ;p) and then gets seeded into the second code S in the season. Which would be the optimal solution in my opinion.
On December 15 2011 06:28 Wicelo wrote: This whole story is pathetic Naniwa did nothing wrong by probe rushing it's the tournament format that is fucked up. I'm disapointed that Naniwa apologized though he should assume his acts proudly not surrendering to those silly pieces of shit.
Sometimes, one has to be willing to yield. Conflicts only escalate further when both sides have excessive pride. Whether you perceive this statement to be sincere or insincere, it's better than risking a career just because of pride.
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
thank god not every one thinks like you do
Thank god not everyone thinks like you do. The entire world would be north korea where doing anything that isnt ok by the leaders will get you hung.
On December 15 2011 06:23 KimJongIlJr wrote: Khaldor tried to ask him a bit ago on his stream about the Blizzard cup. His response? "Shit happens"
Take that as you will.
Actually, that was regarding the fact that he lost all his games, not about his drone rush. Don't spread misinformation, please.
Not entirely related but, on Khaldor stream, while watching Goody play a few minutes ago, Nani said he once played goody and only had 5 probes left vs 30 of Goody and stayed in the game because "well, it's goody". And then he added "I should have 5 probe rushed him". Anyone who can appreciate his extremely dry humor and arrogance should turn to it right now, it's gold. For the others, it's probably better to just do sthg else. I'm dreaming of a Khaldor+Idra+Naniwa casting evening in Korea in the near future.
This was after khaldor said "you couldnt even 7 probe rush him" -.- Why do people put stuff out of context
Unneeded statement Koreans in Korea will always hold the same pointt of view of being high and mighty in the judgement as shown on multiple occassions. The match was meaningless and Naniwa had it right the first time I support Naniwa 100%. They act like Naniwa flicked off the crowd or something hell if this is what they believe firebathero would never have played more than 1 TV match ever.
On December 15 2011 06:19 twndomn wrote: It's really a cultural gap. Not even IdrA would dare to do what Naniwa has done, while IN Korea. IdrA spent years in Korea to understand Korean culture (perhaps respect, status quo... etc) and then to get some respects from the Koreans. Naniwa has yet to do that.
I think it's a cultural gap both ways. I think if Sundance was in Mr. Chae's position, you'd see the league taking responsibility for the format and not punishing the player this harshly. Both parties have been disrespectful and acted inappropriately. One has apologized and taken responsibility and now the other ought to.
But can you really say given other possible punishments that it's THAT severe?
Yes players are human. Yes personally I would like a universal "all players are White-ra and Boxer and will play no matter how emotionally broken they are and give it 110%". But at the same time yes I realize that that isn't realistic. But there are other options than simply clearly throwing a game. I won't advocate "4 gate and pretend"; but straight GG-ing would be a better option than blatant disrespect.
Gom should own up for the fact that the tournament structure was flawed. Regardless of that though I cannot and will not justify any argument that it's okay that he acted in that way "because there was no rule against it." I'm not pretending to put words in your mouth specifically and imply that you've made any sort of argument that it's "okay" that he did either.
Yes errors were made on both sides. I don't think that's a cultural issue though. I don't think saying to a player, "hey don't be unprofessional" is a cultural phenomenon, at least I really hope it isn't, because it would absolutely depress me if that's what "Westerners" have devolved to.
I think the only possible culture piece involved comes from Gom not apologizing. I can see a culture argument in that the organization has no flaw and players have a very distinct place and standard, and the organization can do no wrong. But if that's the argument that's being made about cultural differences it needs to be that. It needs to be Korea takes it's esports very very seriously and demands respect for it's organizations (which frankly should be something all esports organizations do for the sake of the legitimacy of esports and sc2), but in Korea as a player you will always be at the mercy of the ones in charge, because you are just a player, as opposed to more Western ideas where management can be flawed and in some cases more....lax in response to behavior because of it.
I really appreciate how Quantic stood by their player while apologizing at the same time, much respect to them. I was honestly very terrified by the situation as the public out lash by the Koreans made me believe that it would've been an easier decision for Quantic to dump NaNiwa, my respect grew ten folds with them standing their ground while being diplomatic about it. It seem NaNiwa has found a team that suits him, Quantic and NaNiwa fighting!
On December 15 2011 06:33 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: So nani manned up and apologized for his mistakes now gom needs to apologize for theirs.
They would first have to qualify it as a mistake. I doubt they see it that way, although I'm sure it won't take them long to forget all about this incident.
great statement, at first, what naniwa did made alot of sense to me, since i know pretty much how he thinks and acts after he loses games, especially when they are so close as they were, I can understand why he just wanted to get it over with, since it wasent more to the game than just playing it out and fight for the win, if not for himself then for his fans etc.
He learned his lesson, Lets move on from this and leave it behind as an example of what not to do. <3 Naniwa
Naniwa just co-casts with khaldor, he doesnt seem to be too mad
€: great statements, seems to be alright now. What bothers me more is that idra and sen get free code S spot for technically nothing (i dont say they are bad or they had bad results at all, especially sen deserves it. but what qualifies idra over stephano for expample?). It feels like a christmas present :/
On December 15 2011 06:27 jazzyjazz wrote: Hey Quantic Gaming,
Organize a bo5 or bo7 showmatch pitting Naniwa against Nestea. Put up a $1000 prize pool, have of the prize pool goes to the winner while the other half goes to the winner's choice of charity.
This would give the fans the "rival match" that was "stolen" from them and it would be good PR. This would also help mend the relationship between Naniwa/Quantic and the e-sport community.
That'd be cool! Why not make it the 850$ (right?) nani was payed from the tourney, and put all of it to charity.
Naniwa will always have my support. I truely think all the "misunderstandings" that happens with him are exactly that; misunderstandings and cultural differences that are things Naniwa seriously doesnt consider before it happens, because he has one goal and thats to be #1 at every tournament.
On December 15 2011 06:34 Hubris wrote: Wow. This thread has taught me some Naniwa supporters will go to any length to defend him, even going as far to dismiss his own appology...
I don't understand, are you implying that the people that doubt his apology are actually Naniwa fans and not his haters?
On December 15 2011 06:19 twndomn wrote: It's really a cultural gap. Not even IdrA would dare to do what Naniwa has done, while IN Korea. IdrA spent years in Korea to understand Korean culture (perhaps respect, status quo... etc) and then to get some respects from the Koreans. Naniwa has yet to do that.
I think it's a cultural gap both ways. I think if Sundance was in Mr. Chae's position, you'd see the league taking responsibility for the format and not punishing the player this harshly. Both parties have been disrespectful and acted inappropriately. One has apologized and taken responsibility and now the other ought to.
I agree there is a cultural gap. Naniwa called MLG a joke tournament live on stage for all to see. It doesn't get anymore disrespectful than dissing the tournament you're currently participating in live on stage. What did sundance do? Absolutely nothing. That shows me that MLG doesn't mind players crapping on their tourney at all. Gom will not stand for similar actions, nor should they. They have nothing to apologize for here and only need to accept quantic's and naniwa's apology. Case closed and time to move on.
I did not like what you did at MLG and your ceremony after winning the game against NesTea was really awkward. I was angry yesterday after you did that. I actually stopped watching the vods after that game. But I have an idea for you. This is the last tournament of the year for GSL. Why don't you offer to close the year with a great game?
Head over to NesTea and the guys at GOMTV and offer to play a best BO5 series to close the year out. It can be casted by Khaldor and Wolf and it doesn't even have to be in the studio; but that would be great.
Just offer it, say you are available at ANY TIME and make it clear that you want to provide the fans and viewers with awesome games. And whatever the result; shake the hand of NesTea afterwards with a slight bow. And make it clear to the viewers you will be "a better gamer" next year bye showing it with your actions not your words!
On December 15 2011 06:27 jazzyjazz wrote: Hey Quantic Gaming,
Organize a bo5 or bo7 showmatch pitting Naniwa against Nestea. Put up a $1000 prize pool, have of the prize pool goes to the winner while the other half goes to the winner's choice of charity.
This would give the fans the "rival match" that was "stolen" from them and it would be good PR. This would also help mend the relationship between Naniwa/Quantic and the e-sport community.
That'd be cool! Why not make it the 850$ (right?) nani was payed from the tourney, and put all of it to charity.
This sounds like an amazing idea. It would also give high level starcraft over the brake
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
Idra never bm'd in the GSL for a reason. Idra knows how to keep his composure when it counts, which is what seperates him from Naniwa.
And yes, it's a game. A game that Mr. Chae has put a HUGE amount of time and money into and one that a lot of people are, you know, MAKING THEIR LIVING off of. I'm pretty sure Naniwa takes "that whole gaming thing" pretty seriously himself.
Idra has years of experience with crazy koreans... he was more than prepared for his sc2 career in korea. He has said some bad shit in broodwar... There was a video a while back with a commentator ranting about idra not being a real programer because of how he acted so.. Idra made the mistake and learned a lesson. Which is why he wouldnt do it again not because he is somehow more mature than naniwa by default..
Great statement. I hope Naniwa is sincere with his apology.
While I don't defend what Naniwa did I'm still waiting on a longer statement from GOM. Although GOM runs it's tournaments anyway they please they have some responsibility in blowing this incident way out of proportion.
(They could have given Naniwa a warning and/or a fine. Instead they threw him out of code S.)
On December 15 2011 06:27 jazzyjazz wrote: Hey Quantic Gaming,
Organize a bo5 or bo7 showmatch pitting Naniwa against Nestea. Put up a $1000 prize pool, have of the prize pool goes to the winner while the other half goes to the winner's choice of charity.
This would give the fans the "rival match" that was "stolen" from them and it would be good PR. This would also help mend the relationship between Naniwa/Quantic and the e-sport community.
That'd be cool! Why not make it the 850$ (right?) nani was payed from the tourney, and put all of it to charity.
I don't buy it. There have simply been too many incidents in the past with Naniwa to make me believe that one incident will change his outlook on his career. People don't change so quickly. He may feel bad about it but only because the consequences of his actions affected him directly. It is well known Naniwa plays only for himself, so an apology targeted mainly at his fans is something quite out of the ordinary for him. He only apologized because he has to if he wants to remain on good terms with tournament organizers.
Props to GOMTV for maintaining a standard of sportsmanship, respect, and courtesy. Keep up the good work!
On December 15 2011 06:37 Jacuzzi wrote: That's a nice PC statement that Quantic wrote up and Nani signed on to save his ass - only AFTER his spot from Code S was forfeited.
Because that was a completely predictable outcome to playing out a meaningless game with a 6 probe rush, right?
Clearly, this is damage control written by some Quantic PR guy. Naniwas english isn't that good. However, the message is directed towards GSL and Korea.. I think Naniwa already knows that 95% of the western audience has his back on this issue.
Will be interesting to see how this affects Naniwa in the future. We know he is an emotional guy. Will this give him a need for revenge to prove the koreans wrong, or will he instead focus his play on the western tournaments this season, as he is not bound by weekly GSL matches anymore.
I personally lost all respect for NaNiwa, before i considered him one of the best foreigners (when the games matter, ThorZain vs NaNi, Huk vs NaNi MLG etc.) i just don't understand how he can travel multiple countries away, lose a few games and decide to possibly ruin his "pro-gamer" image permanently by losing his temper and not properly finishing what he signed up to finish. Sure most will get over it but for some this seems like it will be a deal-breaker and will no longer support Nani. I personally am one of those, i just don't see how another player may act like this in a tournament that shouldn't be as much about money as it is about fame and glory. To me it kind of feels like he walked into the tourney hoping to win didn't get his way in beginning and decided, f*** this i can't win anymore anyway. he even said the games meant nothing so what was the point in playing a he felt was meaningless. It seems to me if you just want money to play and don't care about reputation as a pro gamer then just stay in easy local tournaments and get your money there. This however won't stop me from watching eSports or GSL tournaments. Formats always change but players image is a much more permanent thing.
Edit: After all is said in done I am glad to see that apologies were made and people can now continue on with their lives and wait for the next big eSports scandal.
On December 15 2011 06:30 chadissilent wrote: That apology wasn't written by NaNiwa, Quantic PR wrote it up for him.
As I am Swedish myself, some of the wordings in the text and the order of the words sounds very typical for a Swede. My guess is that Quantic asked Naniwa for some words and then Quantic rephrased some of it a bit to look and sound better and with less errors.
On December 15 2011 06:38 Legio wrote: Clearly, this is damage control written by some Quantic PR guy. Naniwas english isn't that good. However, the message is directed towards GSL and Korea.. I think Naniwa already knows that 95% of the western audience has his back on this issue.
Will be interesting to see how this affects Naniwa in the future. We know he is an emotional guy. Will this give him a need for revenge to prove the koreans wrong, or will he instead focus his play on the western tournaments this season, as he is not bound by weekly GSL matches anymore.
On December 15 2011 06:34 Hubris wrote: Wow. This thread has taught me some Naniwa supporters will go to any length to defend him, even going as far to dismiss his own appology...
I don't understand, are you implying that the people that doubt his apology are actually Naniwa fans and not his haters?
No, I am pointing out there are people defending him that are saying his apology is not real/sincere/or needed. They're trying to talk for him.. -_-
Glad to see Naniwa might understand what it is to be a pro player now. I wish him luck and hope that he understands that even if a player has one bad game or a series of them their fans still support them.
On December 15 2011 06:27 jazzyjazz wrote: Hey Quantic Gaming,
Organize a bo5 or bo7 showmatch pitting Naniwa against Nestea. Put up a $1000 prize pool, have of the prize pool goes to the winner while the other half goes to the winner's choice of charity.
This would give the fans the "rival match" that was "stolen" from them and it would be good PR. This would also help mend the relationship between Naniwa/Quantic and the e-sport community.
That's quite a lovely idea. Would love to see that.
On December 15 2011 06:38 Legio wrote: Clearly, this is damage control written by some Quantic PR guy. Naniwas english isn't that good. However, the message is directed towards GSL and Korea.. I think Naniwa already knows that 95% of the western audience has his back on this issue.
Will be interesting to see how this affects Naniwa in the future. We know he is an emotional guy. Will this give him a need for revenge to prove the koreans wrong, or will he instead focus his play on the western tournaments this season, as he is not bound by weekly GSL matches anymore.
95% swedish maybe
yah... it sure hasn't seemed like 95% I doubt im part of a 5%. I really hope he learns and continues improving and either is given a 2nd chance next season or earns his shot to get back there asap. Dude works hard and as long as he learns to be professional and respectful to a certain degree he deserves to go far.
On December 15 2011 06:08 LiamTheZerg wrote: I respect the team, but have lost any respect to Naniwa or his cut & paste apology. Being an adult and a professional means being able to control yourself, which is something he has failed to show he is capable of time and time again. Also, i dislike the asking to reconsider for a second chance. He openly disrespected GOM during a tournament that was meant to celebrate a great year of StarCraft. It's only a month, he can and should wait. I don't understand where everyone gets this sense of entitlement from. You mess up, you accept your punishment, and you learn from it for next time.
Gom didn't man up & take the blame & you're not criticizing that.. They didn't even apologize to the fans for the horrible tournament format that allowed this to happen - Naniwa did man up & apologize. If you read his statement you can see he's genuinely confused about this situation.
On December 15 2011 06:08 LiamTheZerg wrote: I respect the team, but have lost any respect to Naniwa or his cut & paste apology. Being an adult and a professional means being able to control yourself, which is something he has failed to show he is capable of time and time again. Also, i dislike the asking to reconsider for a second chance. He openly disrespected GOM during a tournament that was meant to celebrate a great year of StarCraft. It's only a month, he can and should wait. I don't understand where everyone gets this sense of entitlement from. You mess up, you accept your punishment, and you learn from it for next time.
Gom didn't man up & take the blame & you're not criticizing that.. They didn't even apologize to the fans for the horrible tournament format that allowed this to happen - Naniwa did man up & apologize. If you read his statement you can see he's genuinely confused about this situation.
Silly bias is silly..
because GOM didn't do anything wrong and have nothing to apologize for? don't like the format? don't accept the invitation and play in their tournament.
Naniwa had no obligation to do no more than a probe rush.. He did what he was there to do no more & no less. Naniwa technically did nothing wrong - anyone uncapable of seeing this need to watch SOTG & see liquid tyler spitting truth.. The summery of it being he didn't do what was right for anyone but he did fulfill his obligation to the tournament. And if Gom wants more than that they need to make rules to support that.
...and we've got one of those Tyler's minions over here, great. I love how he makes a looong point about the supposedly broken format, and says nothing about Naniwa's behavior. I guess he approves it, and that tells me a lot about his pro mentality.
1. Naniwa's behavior 2. Blizzard cup's supposedly flawed format
Which is the more deserving of frowning and reprehension? 1 or 2? I would like to hear your answer.
If your answer is 2, the format is to blame more than Naniwa, then this discussion is pointless, because clearly we've got insurmontable differences.
btw, if Naniwa truly means this apology, then I feel better. Let's see if he really does.
If Gom doesnt get relaxed and get their stick out of their asses after this, then it is the beginning of the end for foreign players to decide to spent their career in Korean....
WTF GOM, if oGsMC pulled this at NASL, they would laugh at it... drop the ''this is a great pro-attitude'' and let player behave unprofessional, let the community decide what is BM and what not... GOM DROPS NANI, I DROP GOM
Great apology. Can we all just get over this and forgive the poor guy now? He received a huge amount of backlash from a lot of people involved with SC2. On top of that, he lost his Code S spot, which he rightly deserved, and now people are still on his back.
I agree with what GomTV did, but I feel really bad for Naniwa.
On December 15 2011 06:39 niteReloaded wrote: Naniwa certainly didn't write that, but I hope he at least agrees with the core message.
it's not hard to write something you don't believe in urself. not saying he doesn't i mean he's trying to be a pro gamer and all. so he kind of has to do what the ppl want
Naniwa didn't cheese, he did something that he knew had a 0% of winning. When people cheese, they do it because they have a chance to win. Nani admitted he didn't try. If you don't like the punishment, fine, but don't pretend like what Nani did was a legitimate try. Just look at the VOD.
I never said that it was a legitiamate try and it really doesnt matter if he had a chance of winning. He played the game, he lost. Nothing special about it. People workerrushed before and they will do it in the future and no one will give a fck. All this drama is just because its Nani who did it.
Public relation tricks Anyways nothing is changed Naniwa is having reputation and will not change anytime soon, he got punished and its probably not the last time...
On December 15 2011 06:30 chadissilent wrote: That apology wasn't written by NaNiwa, Quantic PR wrote it up for him.
Probably :D.
I dont care much in fact, Naniwa will have now his own shitstorm to walk in from quantic, but he earned it in a way. Im quite sure that Quantic contract has some sort of a statement saying "When you play for us you represent the team and have to behave accordingly".
GOMTV have released a statement on the Incident. Posted earlier but buried under the comments -_-
I don't see a reciprocal apology, or even an acknowledgement of their flawed format, in that statement. If anything that GOM statement sounds even more like a canned answer than Quantic's repsonse.
On December 15 2011 06:19 twndomn wrote: It's really a cultural gap. Not even IdrA would dare to do what Naniwa has done, while IN Korea. IdrA spent years in Korea to understand Korean culture (perhaps respect, status quo... etc) and then to get some respects from the Koreans. Naniwa has yet to do that.
I think it's a cultural gap both ways. I think if Sundance was in Mr. Chae's position, you'd see the league taking responsibility for the format and not punishing the player this harshly. Both parties have been disrespectful and acted inappropriately. One has apologized and taken responsibility and now the other ought to.
I don't think cultural gap should ever be used as an excuse for disrespectful behavior. There really is nothing disrespectful about GOM's decision on this matter. There are terms and conditions in a contract that's expected of every player participating in the tournament, and Naniwa violated it. It has every right to revoke the player of his opportunity to participate.
You yourself are a professional gamer, and you know how many hours you have to put into practicing in order to be prepared for a tournament. I understand if a player is shaken after a loss, or a series of losses, because it's something they really want to achieve. This still doesn't excuse Naniwa from discrediting Nestea's efforts by simply tossing the next game. If you've worked really hard for something in your life, you want the competition and you want to prove to yourself that you can best it. There's nothing more discouraging than an opponent who doesn't care. If the professional members of the e-sports community are playing only for the money, how can we ever expect e-sports to gain the same recognition as other sports?
On December 15 2011 06:35 KalWarkov wrote: Naniwa just co-casts with khaldor, he doesnt seem to be too mad
€: great statements, seems to be alright now. What bothers me more is that idra and sen get free code S spot for technically nothing (i dont say they are bad or they had bad results at all, especially sen deserves it. but what qualifies idra over stephano for expample?). It feels like a christmas present :/
Stephano doesnt want to partcipate in gsl. I would like to see him myself.
GOMTV have released a statement on the Incident. Posted earlier but buried under the comments -_-
I don't see a reciprocal apology, or even an acknowledgement of their flawed format, in that statement. If anything that GOM statement sounds even more like a canned answer than Quantic's repsonse.
maybe gom really thinks they didn't do anything wrong (which i agree with) and naniwa did something wrong and apologized?
If NaNiwa has the quality and skill to compete in Code S, then he would easily(?) win the final in Code A and earn Code S during Jan GSL. Hope to see new NaNiwa in GSL
Now I just have to wonder if Naniwa really thinks this way or if Quantic kind of forced him to say something along these lines. (I am not hating on Naniwa in any way, but it is a possibility)
An unprofessional action, followed by an extremely professional reaction. Fair play to Quantic and Naniwa for accepting responsibility. Now lets move on, I want to see what Naniwa had in store for Nestea :D
What I fear with this apology thing, sincere or not, will make the community somehow justify what he did earlier and target their pinchforks to gomtv, instead of accepting the apology and the punishment.
On December 15 2011 06:41 epb1982 wrote: If Gom doesnt get relaxed and get their stick out of their asses after this, then it is the beginning of the end for foreign players to decide to spent their career in Korean....
WTF GOM, if oGsMC pulled this at NASL, they would laugh at it... drop the ''this is a great pro-attitude'' and let player behave unprofessional, let the community decide what is BM and what not... GOM DROPS NANI, I DROP GOM
It's already happening in this thread I see... sigh, mindless sheeps...
On December 15 2011 06:19 twndomn wrote: It's really a cultural gap. Not even IdrA would dare to do what Naniwa has done, while IN Korea. IdrA spent years in Korea to understand Korean culture (perhaps respect, status quo... etc) and then to get some respects from the Koreans. Naniwa has yet to do that.
I think it's a cultural gap both ways. I think if Sundance was in Mr. Chae's position, you'd see the league taking responsibility for the format and not punishing the player this harshly. Both parties have been disrespectful and acted inappropriately. One has apologized and taken responsibility and now the other ought to.
i really have to criticize ur point of view on this. rules are written as a general guideline to run things and information for the players. they are not the end all for which all decisions are made around. at the end of the day, the league can still make executive decisions at their own descretion.
just like in a court of law, there is still a judge and jury to make the decisions, we cant just go by the written code of regulations. but americans in general like to lean on the written law too much as opposed to "common sense." this is why there are so many ludicrous law suits out there that try to exploit the law. ie. burglar injures himself breaking into someone's home and sues (successfully in some cases) the home owner. of course there are many things that the US does right compared to Korea and Asian countries.
gom did nothing wrong and dont need to apologize for it. and the punishment is not too harsh and naniwa and the team has decided on an even more severe punishment for themselves. and it doesnt matter if everyone questions if they are being sincere or not, the fact that they are going through with it justifies that they think its the right thing to do.
I support Nani and Quantic. Naniwa works his ass off to provide a superior viewing product to us, the fan. Sure, he does it for his own reasons, but he does it. I have a deep respect for his commitment to being the best.
I hope this apology resonates with the foreign and korean community and we are able to move on to the next drama! Cant wait!
GOMTV have released a statement on the Incident. Posted earlier but buried under the comments -_-
I don't see a reciprocal apology, or even an acknowledgement of their flawed format, in that statement. If anything that GOM statement sounds even more like a canned answer than Quantic's repsonse.
did you bother to read it? they addressed the format issue. also, there is nothing to apologize for. they didnt ban naniwa, they just removed him from consideration because they no longer considered him a valuable player.
Wonderful statement. I am appeased with regards to NaNiWa. I'd like to see him implement such things in the course of the next fantastic year of eSports!
lol, I hate to say it but this doesn't sound like naniwa... It kinda sounds like someone from quantic wrote it and naniwa said sure. Im sure im wrong though
I think what happend to Naniwa is just, it costed his team exposure and gom money and he must be punished... Some people take this seriously and we have to for it to be a true "sport" players in the nfl get fined for misconduct hell they get fined for having long hair, harsh rules come with the territory. I hope Naniwa learned from his mistakes because he will truly become a fierce competitor.
tens of thousands (not counting the korean side) of people arguing and getting upset over such a small thing.. its actually pretty cool, just shows how huge esports is becoming
Interestingly enough they make things up, making me lose all respect for them. Naniwa earned a spot in Code S yet now they claim he didn't? Even the official website says he earned a code S spot.
GOMTV have released a statement on the Incident. Posted earlier but buried under the comments -_-
I don't see a reciprocal apology, or even an acknowledgement of their flawed format, in that statement. If anything that GOM statement sounds even more like a canned answer than Quantic's repsonse.
It's the end of the year tournament and people wanted to see everyone play each other, so it was a round robin tournament.
GOM is supposed to apologize that they made a format to give the fans what they wanted?
seems forced and written by a ghost writer (but rather sincere). It won't effect what happened and what consequences it had for naniwa. It would be awesome if GOM would forgive naniwa but they took action rather quickly so that's not an option.
Interestingly enough they make things up, making me lose all respect for them. Naniwa earned a spot in Code S yet now they claim he didn't? Even the official website says he earned a code S spot.
I'm okay with an apology from Naniwa. What I'm not okay with is this bullshit about instantly becoming a more mature person with a renewed outlook on what the game means to the fans. I'm sorry, but it takes more than 2 days to reflect on something of this philosophical nature and have a change of heart.
He's made it clear time and time again that he only cares about winning, why should that suddenly change when the community shits on him for giving up a match that he knew the community wanted to see. I can't see how you could argue one being oblivious to this fact, given the nature of crowd reactions at MLG to his matches against Nestea and the atmosphere of an invitational, (which is the most ideal fan-catered tournament).
I hope he makes better decisions in the future, but I'm not banking on it. Not a fan.
On December 15 2011 06:19 twndomn wrote: It's really a cultural gap. Not even IdrA would dare to do what Naniwa has done, while IN Korea. IdrA spent years in Korea to understand Korean culture (perhaps respect, status quo... etc) and then to get some respects from the Koreans. Naniwa has yet to do that.
I think it's a cultural gap both ways. I think if Sundance was in Mr. Chae's position, you'd see the league taking responsibility for the format and not punishing the player this harshly. Both parties have been disrespectful and acted inappropriately. One has apologized and taken responsibility and now the other ought to.
It's not a cultural gap. It's pretty universal.
All games in the GSL are meaningful. It wasn't a meaningless game. There's a reason why before every single GSL game they put the Win-Loss record of the player in the GSL on the screen. Every game matters. You're judged by your record.
Naniwa is what, 0-7 in the GSL now? You can't tell me that there's no difference between a player who is 10-20 in GSL games and one who is 15-5 (random numbers). Your record matters. It's your measure as a professional player.
Why do people keep acting like this game was meaningless? It wasn't a ladder game and it wasn't meaningless. It was a live studio game, there were a half dozen casters in two languages, a live audience, 100,000+ people in twelve different time zones, and he threw the game. Are you kidding me?
a mistake handled well, there really was no excuse like so many are trying to defend. i'm very glad people defending naniwa and shit-talking gom are the minority
he will have more chances in the future at gsl.
good luck to all
note: i'm not 100% on the format but i assume its a single elimination pool play, similar to world cup. there's no problem with this format. it can leave "meaningless" games but it can also build up pressure depending on the win/loss distribution. in the end, players play representing their team, sponsor, country and do your best out of respect regardless of the circumstances. doing other wise is what caused this drama in the first place.
Interestingly enough they make things up, making me lose all respect for them. Naniwa earned a spot in Code S yet now they claim he didn't? Even the official website says he earned a code S spot.
MLG happened to be in a partnership agreement with GOM, and because you don't legally unilaterally change the terms of an agreement without prior consultation and consent either something improper happened in regards to seeds or this was agreed upon much later and not communicated in full to the community.
On December 15 2011 06:53 Naniwa wrote: I can assure that i did indeed write everything. they only did spellchecking thanks for alot of positive support. i will come back stronger !
Much love and support to you nani! Nice to see the hate train hasn't brought you down.
Great response from Naniwa. I think if he had issued this statement a few hours ago, even Mr. Chae and the GOM crew would have easily forgiven him and given his spot back. Unfortunately I think they weren't happy with his original response (which was basically Naniwa defending his actions) which is why they went forward so quickly to give his spot in Code S away.
I don't know how much of that statement was forced by Quantic for Naniwa to say, and I do believe both Quantic and Naniwa are bending over backwards and shouldn't have to go THIS far, but they definitely made the SMART decision. This should quell any problems in the future, and if not, well I don't understand why not.
On December 15 2011 06:19 twndomn wrote: It's really a cultural gap. Not even IdrA would dare to do what Naniwa has done, while IN Korea. IdrA spent years in Korea to understand Korean culture (perhaps respect, status quo... etc) and then to get some respects from the Koreans. Naniwa has yet to do that.
I think it's a cultural gap both ways. I think if Sundance was in Mr. Chae's position, you'd see the league taking responsibility for the format and not punishing the player this harshly. Both parties have been disrespectful and acted inappropriately. One has apologized and taken responsibility and now the other ought to.
It's not a cultural gap. It's pretty universal.
All games in the GSL are meaningful. It wasn't a meaningless game. There's a reason why before every single GSL game they put the Win-Loss record of the player in the GSL on the screen. Every game matters. You're judged by your record.
Naniwa is what, 0-7 in the GSL now? You can't tell me that there's no difference between a player who is 10-20 in GSL games and one who is 15-5 (random numbers). Your record matters. It's your measure as a professional player.
Why do people keep acting like this game was meaningless? It wasn't a ladder game and it wasn't meaningless. It was a live studio game, there were a half dozen casters in two languages, a live audience, 100,000+ people in twelve different time zones, and he threw the game. Are you kidding me?
Had he used a strategy he had worked on for weeks in that match... that strategy would be lost. All for a game that matters nothing, yes it matters not one single bit. You do not gain anything from winning that game since you cannot use your original strategy because that would be a waste.
For one when you guys say NaNiwa didn't break any rules, he broke the social rules. As NaNi stated he wasn't really aware of anyone else and just cared about winning/being the best, however when you are being a guest in someones culture, tournament, business things change.
Also for those of you speculating if it was NaNiwa or not (who wrote it) you don't know him, I don't know him, no one here knows him, you do not know what NaNiwa sounds like so don't pretend you do.
I like what I read from Naniwa, I just hope he means it because he could really grow from this if he does. Again, I feel like revoking his code S was too harsh and I wouldnt have done that BUT I'm okay with the decision (nothing we can do about it now.) I want to say that Naniwa took the high road on this and will be back better than ever. Hope this doesn't demotivate him as hes been one of the role models when it comes to dedication and work ethic.
On December 15 2011 06:53 Naniwa wrote: I can assure that i did indeed write everything. they only did spellchecking thanks for alot of positive support. i will come back stronger !
Really great statement Naniwa, I hope you do well in all of your future tourneys and hope you get back into Code S soon!
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
You can think that way, since you're not living in Korea and training because you're not good. This isn't just a game. People play this for a living. To say it's a game would be saying that baseball is just a game and when people are unsportsmanlike in that, then it's ok; it's just a game. Naniwa had spent time in Korea before so he knows how serious it is and how much Koreans take pride in it. He should have showed more class.
Interestingly enough they make things up, making me lose all respect for them. Naniwa earned a spot in Code S yet now they claim he didn't? Even the official website says he earned a code S spot.
This is the part about GOMs announcement i don't like, they basically just said "yeah, we changed our format which in turn made it so that Nani's confirmed code S spot wasn't valid" without mention ANYTHING up until now.
Just read goms answer and got even more pissed. They refuse to say that they did anything wrong and that it was even a punishment at all. Bullshit. Own up to the fact that gom got pissed (understandable) and that nani got punished and its all good. Also do NOT bring up bullshit about a format change that supposedly happend now that no one in the community knew about. Even mlg said nani got a code s spot!
On December 15 2011 06:53 Naniwa wrote: I can assure that i did indeed write everything. they only did spellchecking thanks for alot of positive support. i will come back stronger !
On December 15 2011 06:46 Skyreaper wrote: If NaNiwa has the quality and skill to compete in Code S, then he would easily(?) win the final in Code A and earn Code S during Jan GSL. Hope to see new NaNiwa in GSL
I'm sorry but that's just not true. Just because you are capable of competing in Code S doesn't mean you will easily be able to get through Code A in your first, 2nd, or even 3rd try.
There are a lot of good players their that are capable of Code S, but the fact is you need to win mutliple games against some of the best and it isn't necessarily easy...
The statement is a good start. Maybe actually being punished in a real sort of way like this is what it takes to change somebody like him.
QxG sure is in an akward situation. They put out a negative statement about Naniwa before they knew they would get him. They get him on their team a very short time later and within days of joining the team he creates this huge drama and makes them look like idiots b/c of their tweets hyping the game.
On December 15 2011 06:53 Naniwa wrote: I can assure that i did indeed write everything. they only did spellchecking thanks for alot of positive support. i will come back stronger !
GOMTV have released a statement on the Incident. Posted earlier but buried under the comments -_-
I don't see a reciprocal apology, or even an acknowledgement of their flawed format, in that statement. If anything that GOM statement sounds even more like a canned answer than Quantic's repsonse.
On December 15 2011 06:55 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: Just read goms answer and got even more pissed. They refuse to say that they did anything wrong and that it was even a punishment at all. Bullshit. Own up to the fact that gom got pissed (understandable) and that nani got punished and its all good. Also do NOT bring up bullshit about a format change that supposedly happend now that no one in the community knew about. Even mlg said nani got a code s spot!
ROFL apologise... FOR WHAT?!
You remind me of a kid I knew who hated losing, and wouldn't ever acknowledge that he, and he alone was wrong. He would often say: "I'm sorry, but YOU WERE WRONG TOOOO!!!! I was wrong BUT YOU WERE WRONGER!!! I'VE APOLOGISED NOW IT'S YOUR TURN BITCH!"
The format... is perfectly fine, get the fuck over it. There's only one wrong guy in this whole story, and he apparently issued an apology, so it's okay for now.
On December 15 2011 06:53 Naniwa wrote: I can assure that i did indeed write everything. they only did spellchecking thanks for alot of positive support. i will come back stronger !
Nani are u going to try code a qualifiers or miss january all together now?
On December 15 2011 06:53 Naniwa wrote: I can assure that i did indeed write everything. they only did spellchecking thanks for alot of positive support. i will come back stronger !
It's good to see you taking this so maturely when you basically got screwed by Gom's unprofessional-ness. I look forward to watching your games in the future
I have to say I'm very impressed by Naniwa's apology. I'm sure Quantic had some pull in the crafting of such an apology, but it's very mature and big of him to step up and say "ya know what? I fucked up, and I'm sorry".
I'm also really glad he's made the realization that there's entertainment in watching such a phenomenal contender, and that he's now playing for his fans, his team, and the reputation of eSports in general.
I've never liked Naniwa much because of his attitude, but this is a HUGE step in the right direction for him and I'm very very happy to see this from him. Good on you, Naniwa. I hope you continue to be an awesome player, with great entertainment value!!!
NOTE: The words above were taken directly from NaNi through dictation, but were reviewed by an editor for grammer so long as those updates didn't change the meaning or the message as it was meant to be delivered. The final copy was proofed by NaNi before publication.
I chuckled to myself over this one.
Great statement by NaNiWa though, I had assumed one of the factors he took into account was the special build he prepared to use against NesTea, and I can understand why he wouldn't want to reveal that in a match that didn't count. I think NaNiWa has taken this very maturely, and it has been handled rather immaturely by the community as a whole in return.
On December 15 2011 06:52 jinorazi wrote: a mistake handled well, there really was no excuse like so many are trying to defend. i'm very glad people defending naniwa and shit-talking gom are the minority
he will have more chances in the future at gsl.
good luck to all
I agree with this 100%
GOM did the right thing, and I don't think people should flame them for bringing the best matches to the viewers, and giving you what you paid for. GOM has a reputation to uphold which they worked extremely hard to get, and I don't see why they should allow someone to pretty much spit in there face, and the viewers who paid for season tickets/steaming.
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
I don't understand everyone's criticism of the tournament format... Group stages have been around seemingly forever, and several progamers (including Huk I believe) have expressed that it is their favourite type of tournament play, as it generally negates the occasional occurence of tournament favourites knocking each other out in the early rounds. It's not like GOMTV came up with this brand new, never-before-seen tournament format that just failed miserably... in that sense I'm not sure why GOMTV would have to apologize.
Please let me know if I am missing something... the whole 'group stage format causes useless games' has never seemed to be an issue before this incident, it was assumed that players would act professionally in each match. Is it because there was no prize difference between 4th and 5th place? Is it becaues it's BO1 (it's not like this is new either)? Maybe it has been an issue and I've just never heard of it.
On a side note, the apology is very well done if it is sincere.
I´m very disappointed in GOM as well as like half of the Starcraft 2 Community. I dont see where it should be Naniwas fault for not playing those games with all his heart. There were other Tournaments where something like this already happened without the players being punished for it, and it should be clear that a player with a broken mindset after losing so many games doesnt play with all his effort in a "meaningless" game, and meaningless it was. In my opinion its clearly a tournaments fault when there are games where the results doesnt effect the outcome of the tournament. I also cant see why they make so much noise about this after the games were played, it should´ve been possible to message Naniwa between the games to say him what would happen if he goes on with it.
While this will not save his seed from Code S for January, as that ship has sailed, but this will go a long way toward repairing his relations with the Korean scene. In a future season of the GSL if he were to earn another invitation, with this statement, GomTV would be able to invite him in the future once the cooler heads have prevailed. Entrance into GSL Jan was always out of the question, but this keeps NaNi from receiving a more serious long term exclusion from the GSL altogether. That exclusion would have hurt NaNi and Quantic both greatly.
On December 15 2011 06:38 Legio wrote: Clearly, this is damage control written by some Quantic PR guy. Naniwas english isn't that good. However, the message is directed towards GSL and Korea.. I think Naniwa already knows that 95% of the western audience has his back on this issue.
Is it important whether he wrote it alone or got help by someone who does PR for a living? He's a gamer and not a professional writer. I'd consider asking for help for such an important statement as a smart move as this will probably translated to korean and stuff -_-. So better iron out any possible points of misunderstanding before releasing it.
What's important is that he'll act towards this apology and that's something only time can tell. Stop bashing him for no reason please -_- (not directed to legio but all the other posters who still flame him in this thread :/)
this is a perfect apology. I was bothered by what he did and spent last night arguing why it was wrong. To have him apologize and hit on every reason makes me really happy.
This whole thing is just silly. Nani and Quantic shouldn't have to apologize at all yet they go ahead and do it. On the other hand, GSL just released a statement that is completely false to what people were told in the past(about how Code S/A seeds were handed out). GSL hasn't admitted any fault of there own when they are partially to blame. Why do you create a tournament bracket/pool that can have the potential for pointless matches to take place, i.e. two 0-3 opponents facing each other?
On December 15 2011 06:19 twndomn wrote: It's really a cultural gap. Not even IdrA would dare to do what Naniwa has done, while IN Korea. IdrA spent years in Korea to understand Korean culture (perhaps respect, status quo... etc) and then to get some respects from the Koreans. Naniwa has yet to do that.
I think it's a cultural gap both ways. I think if Sundance was in Mr. Chae's position, you'd see the league taking responsibility for the format and not punishing the player this harshly. Both parties have been disrespectful and acted inappropriately. One has apologized and taken responsibility and now the other ought to.
It's not a cultural gap. It's pretty universal.
All games in the GSL are meaningful. It wasn't a meaningless game. There's a reason why before every single GSL game they put the Win-Loss record of the player in the GSL on the screen. Every game matters. You're judged by your record.
Naniwa is what, 0-7 in the GSL now? You can't tell me that there's no difference between a player who is 10-20 in GSL games and one who is 15-5 (random numbers). Your record matters. It's your measure as a professional player.
Why do people keep acting like this game was meaningless? It wasn't a ladder game and it wasn't meaningless. It was a live studio game, there were a half dozen casters in two languages, a live audience, 100,000+ people in twelve different time zones, and he threw the game. Are you kidding me?
Had he used a strategy he had worked on for weeks in that match... that strategy would be lost. All for a game that matters nothing, yes it matters not one single bit. You do not gain anything from winning that game since you cannot use your original strategy because that would be a waste.
Had he used a strategy he would have won a live televised grudge match against the #2 GSL ranked player with everyone in Korea watching and 100,000+ people around the world.
Nani who says all he cares about is proving himself wouldn't agree with you. He had a chance to play NesTea live in the GSL and prove himself in the game he is passionate about. Who gives a fuck if there was no money involved? You're missing the point.
NOTE: The words above were taken directly from NaNi through dictation, but were reviewed by an editor for grammer so long as those updates didn't change the meaning or the message as it was meant to be delivered. The final copy was proofed by NaNi before publication.
I chuckled to myself over this one.
Great statement by NaNiWa though, I had assumed one of the factors he took into account was the special build he prepared to use against NesTea, and I can understand why he wouldn't want to reveal that in a match that didn't count. I think NaNiWa has taken this very maturely, and it has been handled rather immaturely by the community as a whole in return.
One thing that I think really makes NaNiwa different from other notoriously BM/controversial players like MajOr is that after a big incident, he fesses up and he matures. NaNiwa has done a lot of things and pissed off a lot of people. But if you compare the NaNiwa of a year ago with the one today, he's gone miles. Certainly he still has some maturity issues, but he's growing. Just reading his statement, it sounded like he was very sorry and that he has been learning from his mistakes. I agree with GOM's punishment, but I hope that NaNiwa will continue to participate in the GSL.
Very mature statement from NaNi. I beleive the words are sincere. I mean, the guy is 20 and clearly isn't used to the celebratey he's brought on himself from his success at SC2. I imagine he'll grow from this, and I look forward to seeing his next big game. It's weird with NaNi. He does soooo many bone-headed things, but when I see/hear what he has to say afterwards, I get the impression that he's not the tool that he acts like so often. I enjoy watching him play, and I'm looking forward to seeing him play some GSL games, either through the qualifier process or by getting seeded, in the future.
Okay, i've been reading about this all day and thought i'd chime in. Two things.
One - I have no sympathy for Naniwa at all in this situation. People are blaming "korean culture and values" for gom's actions, but in any league on earth what Naniwa did would receive a lot of ton of negative attention, if not punishments from said league. Yes, in theory Naniwa didn't break any rules. But this is a televised match, in a hyped tournament, in the mecca of esports. It was a horrendously bad decision, and I would never, ever, ever do what he did if I were in his position. Neither would most professionals. If you condone behavior like this, I would have to think that you do not have the best interest of esports in mind.
Don't forget that this isn't the first time Naniwa has been exceptionally bm. (correct me if i'm wrong)
Didn't he have a terrible reputation in the Beta / early sc2 scene for being bad mannered?
Hasn't Naniwa been disqualified or kicked out of at least 3 different stracraft 2 leagues?
Was he not kicked out of his parents house? (reportedly for not being able to get along with his parents at all, not because he played wc3 too much)
Why have so many teams tried to get rid of him? (yes, in all the official statements they throw around phrases like it was a "mutual decision" or that it was in the "player's and team's best interest." Those are PR statements. They are always going to say things like that, regardless of the actual reasons for dropping a player.)
Two - People are blaming GOM for having a "terrible tournament format". Yet I fail to see what makes it so bad. This is a similar format to what is done in the World Cup. A similar format to what is done in tons of competitive ventures. Group play ensures that players get to play at least 4 games. It ensures that we get to see a variety of interesting matchups we would not see otherwise. And in the case of players who are on the brink of qualifying / elimination, it produces some very interesting and exciting situations. Yes, it can create scenarios where one or two players in the group are essentially eliminated, but I would rather have a system where at least we can see the greatest number of different player matchups as is reasonable. You also have to take into account players who are traveling for events like this (yes, i know they were all based in korea except for stephano, but this is a general statement), and I don't think it's right to have players spend all this money and effort to travel just to get knocked out of a single series.
Would people rather just have a straight bracket, like the NASL finals? I hope not. Maybe a double elimination bracket would be more ideal, but with a select invite tournament like this, with a limited number of players and a static broadcasting schedule, I don't think that's the appropriate format either.
tl;dr - I have no sympathy for naniwa, he's been doing stuff like this his whole career. And the gomtv format isn't all that bad. the players are the ones to blame here
On December 15 2011 06:19 twndomn wrote: It's really a cultural gap. Not even IdrA would dare to do what Naniwa has done, while IN Korea. IdrA spent years in Korea to understand Korean culture (perhaps respect, status quo... etc) and then to get some respects from the Koreans. Naniwa has yet to do that.
I think it's a cultural gap both ways. I think if Sundance was in Mr. Chae's position, you'd see the league taking responsibility for the format and not punishing the player this harshly. Both parties have been disrespectful and acted inappropriately. One has apologized and taken responsibility and now the other ought to.
It's not a cultural gap. It's pretty universal.
All games in the GSL are meaningful. It wasn't a meaningless game. There's a reason why before every single GSL game they put the Win-Loss record of the player in the GSL on the screen. Every game matters. You're judged by your record.
Naniwa is what, 0-7 in the GSL now? You can't tell me that there's no difference between a player who is 10-20 in GSL games and one who is 15-5 (random numbers). Your record matters. It's your measure as a professional player.
Why do people keep acting like this game was meaningless? It wasn't a ladder game and it wasn't meaningless. It was a live studio game, there were a half dozen casters in two languages, a live audience, 100,000+ people in twelve different time zones, and he threw the game. Are you kidding me?
Had he used a strategy he had worked on for weeks in that match... that strategy would be lost. All for a game that matters nothing, yes it matters not one single bit. You do not gain anything from winning that game since you cannot use your original strategy because that would be a waste.
Why does he HAVE to use a tailored strategy? He clearly had a decision as is evident by sending his probes across the map and taking his hand off of the keyboard. Your argument is he had to use a prepared strategy.....I'll refrain from insulting your intelligence, as desperately as I want to right now.
Starcraft is a game of decisions, and that's irrefutable.
Interestingly enough they make things up, making me lose all respect for them. Naniwa earned a spot in Code S yet now they claim he didn't? Even the official website says he earned a code S spot.
There isn't an English version of the plan for upcoming 2012 GSL yet, but GomTV already posted an article about the revised format and new rule for 2012 GSL in Korean Website a few days before Blizzard Cup. It is stated that two sponsored players can compete Up/Down match to earn Code S.
On December 15 2011 06:53 Naniwa wrote: I can assure that i did indeed write everything. they only did spellchecking thanks for alot of positive support. i will come back stronger !
While your actions in the Blizzard Cup was quite disappointing, you're still a great player with impressive dedication. Hopefully you've learned enough from this to become the player you strive to be.
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
I don't understand everyone's criticism of the tournament format... Group stages have been around seemingly forever, and several progamers (including Huk I believe) have expressed that it is their favourite type of tournament play, as it generally negates the occasional occurence of tournament favourites knocking each other out in the early rounds. It's not like GOMTV came up with this brand new, never-before-seen tournament format that just failed miserably... in that sense I'm not sure why GOMTV would have to apologize.
Please let me know if I am missing something... the whole 'group stage format causes useless games' has never seemed to be an issue before this incident, it was assumed that players would act professionally in each match. Is it because there was no prize difference between 4th and 5th place? Is it becaues it's BO1 (it's not like this is new either)? Maybe it has been an issue and I've just never heard of it.
On a side note, the apology is very well done if it is sincere.
The format really is crap. And the reason it hasn't been made "public" before is that no shitstorm like the shitstorm that this became has happened before. I bet there has been plenty of matches that has been pointless, alot of them not being played because the players/admins talked and decided they didn't want to play it. The fact that this hasn't happened in korea before is because koreans have been scared shitless of the tyranny of kespa for so many years and they have seen the reprecautions of other peoples mistakes. Foreigners have not which meant this eventually had to happen because now everyone know that you can't do stuff you can normally because koreans have a totally different view on things.
one thing's certain, quantic has handled this situation pretty well. naniwa can just keep playing his best and let his game do the talking from now on.
Naniwa when you come back now that you've realized everyone's with you, you will feel stronger, with less of a burden when you enter that booth, playing those games. Hwaiting!
GOMTV have released a statement on the Incident. Posted earlier but buried under the comments -_-
I don't see a reciprocal apology, or even an acknowledgement of their flawed format, in that statement. If anything that GOM statement sounds even more like a canned answer than Quantic's repsonse.
On December 15 2011 06:55 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: Just read goms answer and got even more pissed. They refuse to say that they did anything wrong and that it was even a punishment at all. Bullshit. Own up to the fact that gom got pissed (understandable) and that nani got punished and its all good. Also do NOT bring up bullshit about a format change that supposedly happend now that no one in the community knew about. Even mlg said nani got a code s spot!
ROFL apologise... FOR WHAT?!
You remind me of a kid I knew who hated losing, and wouldn't ever acknowledge that he, and he alone was wrong. He would often say: "I'm sorry, but YOU WERE WRONG TOOOO!!!! I was wrong BUT YOU WERE WRONGER!!! I'VE APOLOGISED NOW IT'S YOUR TURN BITCH!"
The format... is perfectly fine, get the fuck over it. There's only one wrong guy in this whole story, and he apparently issued an apology, so it's okay for now.
You remind me of the kids that used to "tell" everyone about the rules of the game halfway into the game and then wonder why people got pissed.
Nani acted like a stupid whiney child and gom punished him for it but they dont want to admit it because they know he didnt break any rules.
perfect handling. props to quantic for standing by naniwa while still showing the utmost respect for the GSL's decision and props to naniwa for being genuinely sorry while trying to ensure he has the opportunity to eventually compete in the tournament he obviously respects the most.
i didnt care that much about what happened, because i felt like naniwa anyway is badmannered and does not care about his fans, but this statement - assuming he is serious - has made him kind of sympathetic, because he finally shows that there are emotions in him! he should present himself more like this!
On December 15 2011 06:50 PcH wrote: NaNiwa shouldn't have to apologize for shit. He played how he wanted to play and didn't break any rules. Scumbag GOM.
Ya, how dare they kick him out of THEIR tourny. Good thing you're here to make sure Naniwa is defended from his OWN apology.
On December 15 2011 06:46 Skyreaper wrote: If NaNiwa has the quality and skill to compete in Code S, then he would easily(?) win the final in Code A and earn Code S during Jan GSL. Hope to see new NaNiwa in GSL
If you think Code S players "easily" beats the best Code A players or easily beats any Code A player for that matter then you should think again. There's not a big difference between the two. Players fall up and down between code S and code A all the time, the very best code S players have been code A and are likely to be code A again at some point. Take Leenck for example, he dropped out completely from code A in gsl may. Then able to return and make his way to code S. But in code S he lost to Genius and Rainbow then lost his up/down matches to Byun and then to LiveForever so he was back into code A. Now all of a sudden he wins code S. This is how to goes in starcraft 2 at the moment. There is no completely dominant player, everyone is very close in skill that includes code A players not only code S. We don't have a starcraft 2 Flash yet.
I am not at all a Naniwa fan. I'm actually more of an anti-fan, but if he does mean what he said then hopefully I can regain some respect for him in the future. Time will tell.
On December 15 2011 06:19 twndomn wrote: It's really a cultural gap. Not even IdrA would dare to do what Naniwa has done, while IN Korea. IdrA spent years in Korea to understand Korean culture (perhaps respect, status quo... etc) and then to get some respects from the Koreans. Naniwa has yet to do that.
I think it's a cultural gap both ways. I think if Sundance was in Mr. Chae's position, you'd see the league taking responsibility for the format and not punishing the player this harshly. Both parties have been disrespectful and acted inappropriately. One has apologized and taken responsibility and now the other ought to.
It's not a cultural gap. It's pretty universal.
All games in the GSL are meaningful. It wasn't a meaningless game. There's a reason why before every single GSL game they put the Win-Loss record of the player in the GSL on the screen. Every game matters. You're judged by your record.
Naniwa is what, 0-7 in the GSL now? You can't tell me that there's no difference between a player who is 10-20 in GSL games and one who is 15-5 (random numbers). Your record matters. It's your measure as a professional player.
Why do people keep acting like this game was meaningless? It wasn't a ladder game and it wasn't meaningless. It was a live studio game, there were a half dozen casters in two languages, a live audience, 100,000+ people in twelve different time zones, and he threw the game. Are you kidding me?
Had he used a strategy he had worked on for weeks in that match... that strategy would be lost. All for a game that matters nothing, yes it matters not one single bit. You do not gain anything from winning that game since you cannot use your original strategy because that would be a waste.
Why does he HAVE to use a tailored strategy? He clearly had a decision as is evident by sending his probes across the map and taking his hand off of the keyboard. Your argument is he had to use a prepared strategy.....I'll refrain from insulting your intelligence, as desperately as I want to right now.
Starcraft is a game of decisions, and that's irrefutable.
He could have used some bullshit strategy.. and 80% of the community would be ok with it. The other 20% are the people that doesn't think he did something wrong because we can actually distinguish a bullshit strategy when we see one. Another reason for not playing the match is: he has a rivalry with nestea, he wanted to play him in a match that matters because that would be prestigeous. But now he was faced with this stupid situation that he could not possibly play his best in and for that he didn't want to play it at all since he obviously didn't want to lose to any opponent with a bullshit strategy that 80% of the community thinks were bad decisions.
I find it encouraging that the persons involved are communicating. Of course, when discussing any 'punitive' action, we explain our interpretation of the predetermined guidelines and how they apply to the current situation, and how we follow predetermined guidelines in our response. Grey areas emerge when our interpretations conflict or there are no predetermined guidelines. Ideally, we know what is expected of us at all times. If we do not, then we discuss our misunderstandings in a meaningful way.
Whether or not what has transpired proves what was stated above true or not, I cannot say. I would like to see Naniwa show his resilience as a player in the upcoming tournaments.
Interestingly enough they make things up, making me lose all respect for them. Naniwa earned a spot in Code S yet now they claim he didn't? Even the official website says he earned a code S spot.
There isn't an English version of the plan for upcoming 2012 GSL yet, but GomTV already posted an article about the revised format and new rule for 2012 GSL in Korean Website a few days before Blizzard Cup. It is stated that two sponsored players can compete Up/Down match to earn Code S.
Thanks - I guess it sorta makes sense alongside the Blizzard Cup invite coming from Providence. Otherwise it would put too much weight for the Providence winner/2nd place to get Blizzard Cup invite AND Code S.
Well, let's hope he really believes what he said. Naniwa has been a problem player for a long time, and if his actions match his words i'm sure he'll get a chance at code S again.
Naniwa made a huge mistake, and paid a huge price. He will have to work very hard to get what he has lost back, and he knows it. He has made a clear and conscientious apology. Case closed as far as I'm concerned.
We came to a point where GOM.tv has so much power that even when they make stupid arbitrary decisions players and teams have to redeem, backpedall and write an apology messages...
This really disgusts me ! This is nowhere near eSport !
And this IS NOT Naniwas fault, IT IS Gom.tv's fault for having badly designed the tournament format period.
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
I don't understand everyone's criticism of the tournament format... Group stages have been around seemingly forever, and several progamers (including Huk I believe) have expressed that it is their favourite type of tournament play, as it generally negates the occasional occurence of tournament favourites knocking each other out in the early rounds. It's not like GOMTV came up with this brand new, never-before-seen tournament format that just failed miserably... in that sense I'm not sure why GOMTV would have to apologize.
Please let me know if I am missing something... the whole 'group stage format causes useless games' has never seemed to be an issue before this incident, it was assumed that players would act professionally in each match. Is it because there was no prize difference between 4th and 5th place? Is it becaues it's BO1 (it's not like this is new either)? Maybe it has been an issue and I've just never heard of it.
On a side note, the apology is very well done if it is sincere.
The format really is crap. And the reason it hasn't been made "public" before is that no shitstorm like the shitstorm that this became has happened before. I bet there has been plenty of matches that has been pointless, alot of them not being played because the players/admins talked and decided they didn't want to play it. The fact that this hasn't happened in korea before is because koreans have been scared shitless of the tyranny of kespa for so many years and they have seen the reprecautions of other peoples mistakes. Foreigners have not which meant this eventually had to happen because now everyone know that you can't do stuff you can normally because koreans have a totally different view on things.
Hate to break your bubble swedish guy, but care to tell me what's the format of your country's football league?
I'm sorry if you just found it out and got shocked.
Honestly, this would be great... but, we've heard this story from Naniwa before haven't we? He's sorry and he'll do better. It's getting a bit old. Sounds like someone just told him what to say...
Sorry. Not buying it. Naniwa has become my least favorite player.
On December 15 2011 07:08 LunaSea wrote: We came to a point where GOM.tv has so much power that even when they make stupid arbitrary decisions players and teams have to redeem, backpedall and write an apology messages...
This really disgusts me ! This is nowhere near eSport !
And this IS NOT Naniwas fault, IT IS Gom.tv's fault for having badly designed the tournament format period.
It is naniwas fault, he even appologized for it himself. What more do you need?
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
I don't understand everyone's criticism of the tournament format... Group stages have been around seemingly forever, and several progamers (including Huk I believe) have expressed that it is their favourite type of tournament play, as it generally negates the occasional occurence of tournament favourites knocking each other out in the early rounds. It's not like GOMTV came up with this brand new, never-before-seen tournament format that just failed miserably... in that sense I'm not sure why GOMTV would have to apologize.
Please let me know if I am missing something... the whole 'group stage format causes useless games' has never seemed to be an issue before this incident, it was assumed that players would act professionally in each match. Is it because there was no prize difference between 4th and 5th place? Is it becaues it's BO1 (it's not like this is new either)? Maybe it has been an issue and I've just never heard of it.
On a side note, the apology is very well done if it is sincere.
The format really is crap. And the reason it hasn't been made "public" before is that no shitstorm like the shitstorm that this became has happened before. I bet there has been plenty of matches that has been pointless, alot of them not being played because the players/admins talked and decided they didn't want to play it. The fact that this hasn't happened in korea before is because koreans have been scared shitless of the tyranny of kespa for so many years and they have seen the reprecautions of other peoples mistakes. Foreigners have not which meant this eventually had to happen because now everyone know that you can't do stuff you can normally because koreans have a totally different view on things.
That may be the one thing, but the reason why GOM has chosen this format is probably because there really wasn't a match as one-sided as Blizzard Cup tournament.
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
I don't understand everyone's criticism of the tournament format... Group stages have been around seemingly forever, and several progamers (including Huk I believe) have expressed that it is their favourite type of tournament play, as it generally negates the occasional occurence of tournament favourites knocking each other out in the early rounds. It's not like GOMTV came up with this brand new, never-before-seen tournament format that just failed miserably... in that sense I'm not sure why GOMTV would have to apologize.
Please let me know if I am missing something... the whole 'group stage format causes useless games' has never seemed to be an issue before this incident, it was assumed that players would act professionally in each match. Is it because there was no prize difference between 4th and 5th place? Is it becaues it's BO1 (it's not like this is new either)? Maybe it has been an issue and I've just never heard of it.
On a side note, the apology is very well done if it is sincere.
The format really is crap. And the reason it hasn't been made "public" before is that no shitstorm like the shitstorm that this became has happened before. I bet there has been plenty of matches that has been pointless, alot of them not being played because the players/admins talked and decided they didn't want to play it. The fact that this hasn't happened in korea before is because koreans have been scared shitless of the tyranny of kespa for so many years and they have seen the reprecautions of other peoples mistakes. Foreigners have not which meant this eventually had to happen because now everyone know that you can't do stuff you can normally because koreans have a totally different view on things.
Hate to break your bubble swedish guy, but care to tell me what's the format of your country's football league?
I'm sorry if you just found it out and got shocked.
world cup needs to apologize for having such terrible format!
I'm watching you FIFA! dont weasel out! I demand truth!
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
I don't understand everyone's criticism of the tournament format... Group stages have been around seemingly forever, and several progamers (including Huk I believe) have expressed that it is their favourite type of tournament play, as it generally negates the occasional occurence of tournament favourites knocking each other out in the early rounds. It's not like GOMTV came up with this brand new, never-before-seen tournament format that just failed miserably... in that sense I'm not sure why GOMTV would have to apologize.
Please let me know if I am missing something... the whole 'group stage format causes useless games' has never seemed to be an issue before this incident, it was assumed that players would act professionally in each match. Is it because there was no prize difference between 4th and 5th place? Is it becaues it's BO1 (it's not like this is new either)? Maybe it has been an issue and I've just never heard of it.
On a side note, the apology is very well done if it is sincere.
The format really is crap. And the reason it hasn't been made "public" before is that no shitstorm like the shitstorm that this became has happened before. I bet there has been plenty of matches that has been pointless, alot of them not being played because the players/admins talked and decided they didn't want to play it. The fact that this hasn't happened in korea before is because koreans have been scared shitless of the tyranny of kespa for so many years and they have seen the reprecautions of other peoples mistakes. Foreigners have not which meant this eventually had to happen because now everyone know that you can't do stuff you can normally because koreans have a totally different view on things.
Hate to break your bubble swedish guy, but care to tell me what's the format of your country's football league?
I'm sorry if you just found it out and got shocked.
You mean the worst football league in the world? i have no idea...
Very classy remarks from NaNiWa - I was disappointed with his behavior, and his words reassure me he understands. Well handled by all - Quantic, GOM, and NaNiWa after the fact.
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
I don't understand everyone's criticism of the tournament format... Group stages have been around seemingly forever, and several progamers (including Huk I believe) have expressed that it is their favourite type of tournament play, as it generally negates the occasional occurence of tournament favourites knocking each other out in the early rounds. It's not like GOMTV came up with this brand new, never-before-seen tournament format that just failed miserably... in that sense I'm not sure why GOMTV would have to apologize.
Please let me know if I am missing something... the whole 'group stage format causes useless games' has never seemed to be an issue before this incident, it was assumed that players would act professionally in each match. Is it because there was no prize difference between 4th and 5th place? Is it becaues it's BO1 (it's not like this is new either)? Maybe it has been an issue and I've just never heard of it.
On a side note, the apology is very well done if it is sincere.
The format really is crap. And the reason it hasn't been made "public" before is that no shitstorm like the shitstorm that this became has happened before. I bet there has been plenty of matches that has been pointless, alot of them not being played because the players/admins talked and decided they didn't want to play it. The fact that this hasn't happened in korea before is because koreans have been scared shitless of the tyranny of kespa for so many years and they have seen the reprecautions of other peoples mistakes. Foreigners have not which meant this eventually had to happen because now everyone know that you can't do stuff you can normally because koreans have a totally different view on things.
Hate to break your bubble swedish guy, but care to tell me what's the format of your country's football league?
I'm sorry if you just found it out and got shocked.
Seeing as many don't care about football here I doubt he knows or cares. At least I don't
On December 15 2011 07:09 Hexxed wrote: Honestly, this would be great... but, we've heard this story from Naniwa before haven't we? He's sorry and he'll do better. It's getting a bit old. Sounds like someone just told him what to say...
Sorry. Not buying it. Naniwa has become my least favorite player.
Actually, I don't think he have apologized like this before, correct me if I am wrong.
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
I don't understand everyone's criticism of the tournament format... Group stages have been around seemingly forever, and several progamers (including Huk I believe) have expressed that it is their favourite type of tournament play, as it generally negates the occasional occurence of tournament favourites knocking each other out in the early rounds. It's not like GOMTV came up with this brand new, never-before-seen tournament format that just failed miserably... in that sense I'm not sure why GOMTV would have to apologize.
Please let me know if I am missing something... the whole 'group stage format causes useless games' has never seemed to be an issue before this incident, it was assumed that players would act professionally in each match. Is it because there was no prize difference between 4th and 5th place? Is it becaues it's BO1 (it's not like this is new either)? Maybe it has been an issue and I've just never heard of it.
On a side note, the apology is very well done if it is sincere.
The format really is crap. And the reason it hasn't been made "public" before is that no shitstorm like the shitstorm that this became has happened before. I bet there has been plenty of matches that has been pointless, alot of them not being played because the players/admins talked and decided they didn't want to play it. The fact that this hasn't happened in korea before is because koreans have been scared shitless of the tyranny of kespa for so many years and they have seen the reprecautions of other peoples mistakes. Foreigners have not which meant this eventually had to happen because now everyone know that you can't do stuff you can normally because koreans have a totally different view on things.
Hate to break your bubble swedish guy, but care to tell me what's the format of your country's football league?
I'm sorry if you just found it out and got shocked.
You mean the worst football league in the world? i have no idea...
tell me a big sports league around the world that has absolutely no 'meaningless' games
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
I don't understand everyone's criticism of the tournament format... Group stages have been around seemingly forever, and several progamers (including Huk I believe) have expressed that it is their favourite type of tournament play, as it generally negates the occasional occurence of tournament favourites knocking each other out in the early rounds. It's not like GOMTV came up with this brand new, never-before-seen tournament format that just failed miserably... in that sense I'm not sure why GOMTV would have to apologize.
Please let me know if I am missing something... the whole 'group stage format causes useless games' has never seemed to be an issue before this incident, it was assumed that players would act professionally in each match. Is it because there was no prize difference between 4th and 5th place? Is it becaues it's BO1 (it's not like this is new either)? Maybe it has been an issue and I've just never heard of it.
On a side note, the apology is very well done if it is sincere.
The format really is crap. And the reason it hasn't been made "public" before is that no shitstorm like the shitstorm that this became has happened before. I bet there has been plenty of matches that has been pointless, alot of them not being played because the players/admins talked and decided they didn't want to play it. The fact that this hasn't happened in korea before is because koreans have been scared shitless of the tyranny of kespa for so many years and they have seen the reprecautions of other peoples mistakes. Foreigners have not which meant this eventually had to happen because now everyone know that you can't do stuff you can normally because koreans have a totally different view on things.
Hate to break your bubble swedish guy, but care to tell me what's the format of your country's football league?
I'm sorry if you just found it out and got shocked.
You mean the worst football league in the world? i have no idea...
tell me a big sports league around the world that has absolutely no 'meaningless' games
I guess if everyone has them then we shouldn't strive to get rid of them either. Seriously I don't understand your logic here. How does it matter what everyone else does. Because everything else is shitty, does that mean we should keep things shitty on our end as well? I think it would be good to get rid of games that doesn't matter.
To me a large factor is that, this is a difference of cultures and accepted practice in competition. Personally I'm glad Naniwa did what he did, in what most likely would have been a mediocre game between himself and Nestea, in which at least one of the competitors isn't trying to play even close to his full capabilities, due to the match having no implications on the tournament results, and his focus being solely on winning the tournament.
Naniwa probe rushing shows the man behind the game, which is only going to help grow the scene. Commentators don't have to guess as to how the players feel, they know, everyone knows in this situation, it adds drama and excitement which is what we all want when good games can't be had. Personally i don't see the situation as a negative which needs apology, the Western scene doesn't need to kowtow to Korea, what is common practice in Korean competition should have no factor on how Western players conduct themselves in a Global League. Naniwa doesn't need to be a Kespa drone who shows no emotion(even though Korean sc2 players express emotion a lot more than BW), if he enters a tournament and there is no specific rule prohibiting him taking such a drastic action, except that he offends the delicate sensibilities of the fans. Be passionate, its controversial, but don't take from him something he earned, through his talents which only serve to benefit you. Anger, hatred, love and indifference are all parts of every sport in the world, but just because you disagree with his action doesn't mean he owes you anything. He doesn't deserve to be punished because you think he robbed you of a match that was his to play as he chooses. I agree with Tylers point the match shouldn't even have had to be played as it was inconsequential, but I guess if you take such a point of view you realise you were robbed of nothing.
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
I don't understand everyone's criticism of the tournament format... Group stages have been around seemingly forever, and several progamers (including Huk I believe) have expressed that it is their favourite type of tournament play, as it generally negates the occasional occurence of tournament favourites knocking each other out in the early rounds. It's not like GOMTV came up with this brand new, never-before-seen tournament format that just failed miserably... in that sense I'm not sure why GOMTV would have to apologize.
Please let me know if I am missing something... the whole 'group stage format causes useless games' has never seemed to be an issue before this incident, it was assumed that players would act professionally in each match. Is it because there was no prize difference between 4th and 5th place? Is it becaues it's BO1 (it's not like this is new either)? Maybe it has been an issue and I've just never heard of it.
On a side note, the apology is very well done if it is sincere.
The format really is crap. And the reason it hasn't been made "public" before is that no shitstorm like the shitstorm that this became has happened before. I bet there has been plenty of matches that has been pointless, alot of them not being played because the players/admins talked and decided they didn't want to play it. The fact that this hasn't happened in korea before is because koreans have been scared shitless of the tyranny of kespa for so many years and they have seen the reprecautions of other peoples mistakes. Foreigners have not which meant this eventually had to happen because now everyone know that you can't do stuff you can normally because koreans have a totally different view on things.
Hate to break your bubble swedish guy, but care to tell me what's the format of your country's football league?
I'm sorry if you just found it out and got shocked.
You mean the worst football league in the world? i have no idea...
tell me a big sports league around the world that has absolutely no 'meaningless' games
GOMTV. GSL. There are no meaningless games.
And now you know. Unless you wanna try and probe rush again. See what happens.
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
I don't understand everyone's criticism of the tournament format... Group stages have been around seemingly forever, and several progamers (including Huk I believe) have expressed that it is their favourite type of tournament play, as it generally negates the occasional occurence of tournament favourites knocking each other out in the early rounds. It's not like GOMTV came up with this brand new, never-before-seen tournament format that just failed miserably... in that sense I'm not sure why GOMTV would have to apologize.
Please let me know if I am missing something... the whole 'group stage format causes useless games' has never seemed to be an issue before this incident, it was assumed that players would act professionally in each match. Is it because there was no prize difference between 4th and 5th place? Is it becaues it's BO1 (it's not like this is new either)? Maybe it has been an issue and I've just never heard of it.
On a side note, the apology is very well done if it is sincere.
The format really is crap. And the reason it hasn't been made "public" before is that no shitstorm like the shitstorm that this became has happened before. I bet there has been plenty of matches that has been pointless, alot of them not being played because the players/admins talked and decided they didn't want to play it. The fact that this hasn't happened in korea before is because koreans have been scared shitless of the tyranny of kespa for so many years and they have seen the reprecautions of other peoples mistakes. Foreigners have not which meant this eventually had to happen because now everyone know that you can't do stuff you can normally because koreans have a totally different view on things.
Hate to break your bubble swedish guy, but care to tell me what's the format of your country's football league?
I'm sorry if you just found it out and got shocked.
Seeing as many don't care about football here I doubt he knows or cares. At least I don't
I do care about football just not... swedish crap football. From what i know there are like 15 teams they all play x games and then you decide a winner.. nothing like what the blizzard cup was about... so what?
On December 15 2011 06:53 Naniwa wrote: I can assure that i did indeed write everything. they only did spellchecking thanks for alot of positive support. i will come back stronger !
It's good to see you taking this so maturely when you basically got screwed by Gom's unprofessional-ness. I look forward to watching your games in the future
it's ironic you would bring up the dynamics of maturity and unprofessional-ness of Gom considering the situation.
big thanks to Quantic for handling this this way. I really appreciate that they show the resolve to work with Naniwa and dont just try to kick him out at the best chance ( I look at you coL)
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
I don't understand everyone's criticism of the tournament format... Group stages have been around seemingly forever, and several progamers (including Huk I believe) have expressed that it is their favourite type of tournament play, as it generally negates the occasional occurence of tournament favourites knocking each other out in the early rounds. It's not like GOMTV came up with this brand new, never-before-seen tournament format that just failed miserably... in that sense I'm not sure why GOMTV would have to apologize.
Please let me know if I am missing something... the whole 'group stage format causes useless games' has never seemed to be an issue before this incident, it was assumed that players would act professionally in each match. Is it because there was no prize difference between 4th and 5th place? Is it becaues it's BO1 (it's not like this is new either)? Maybe it has been an issue and I've just never heard of it.
On a side note, the apology is very well done if it is sincere.
The format really is crap. And the reason it hasn't been made "public" before is that no shitstorm like the shitstorm that this became has happened before. I bet there has been plenty of matches that has been pointless, alot of them not being played because the players/admins talked and decided they didn't want to play it. The fact that this hasn't happened in korea before is because koreans have been scared shitless of the tyranny of kespa for so many years and they have seen the reprecautions of other peoples mistakes. Foreigners have not which meant this eventually had to happen because now everyone know that you can't do stuff you can normally because koreans have a totally different view on things.
Hate to break your bubble swedish guy, but care to tell me what's the format of your country's football league?
I'm sorry if you just found it out and got shocked.
You mean the worst football league in the world? i have no idea...
tell me a big sports league around the world that has absolutely no 'meaningless' games
I guess if everyone has them then we shouldn't strive to get rid of them either. Seriously I don't understand your logic here. How does it matter what everyone else does. Because everything else is shitty, does that mean we should keep things shitty on our end as well?
Then why do you guys act like you found every league in the world is flawed after Naniwa went 0-3?
Here are plausible explanation.
Nothing is perfect yet this rule is generally accepted as the best one by alot of brains and fans around the world
Great response from Quantic, but I doubt Naniwa actually believes anything he said in his apology.
Just look at his Twitter; after apologizing he then re-tweets a quote from Idra saying that if you want your players to take things seriously, not to force them to play meaningless matches. Yeah, Nani is full of shit.
On December 15 2011 06:57 oban wrote: Sad you have to suck up like this even though you did nothing wrong.
It's ok Nani, It doesn't matter if you fail once in a while. To me you'll always be the only Swede in SC2 with the eyes of a tiger.
First off he did do something wrong. Second he has done plenty of things that were reprehensible in the public's eyes. Third way to just completely shit on Sweden. Jinro, SaSe, ThorZaIN, plus a whole bunch of other talented, driven players that you just ignored.
i love nani regardless... just extremely surprised with his response. i have no doubt he wrote it... but curious as to how much influence some people had on what he says!
regardless, i wish him the best of luck and will always support
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
I don't understand everyone's criticism of the tournament format... Group stages have been around seemingly forever, and several progamers (including Huk I believe) have expressed that it is their favourite type of tournament play, as it generally negates the occasional occurence of tournament favourites knocking each other out in the early rounds. It's not like GOMTV came up with this brand new, never-before-seen tournament format that just failed miserably... in that sense I'm not sure why GOMTV would have to apologize.
Please let me know if I am missing something... the whole 'group stage format causes useless games' has never seemed to be an issue before this incident, it was assumed that players would act professionally in each match. Is it because there was no prize difference between 4th and 5th place? Is it becaues it's BO1 (it's not like this is new either)? Maybe it has been an issue and I've just never heard of it.
On a side note, the apology is very well done if it is sincere.
The format really is crap. And the reason it hasn't been made "public" before is that no shitstorm like the shitstorm that this became has happened before. I bet there has been plenty of matches that has been pointless, alot of them not being played because the players/admins talked and decided they didn't want to play it. The fact that this hasn't happened in korea before is because koreans have been scared shitless of the tyranny of kespa for so many years and they have seen the reprecautions of other peoples mistakes. Foreigners have not which meant this eventually had to happen because now everyone know that you can't do stuff you can normally because koreans have a totally different view on things.
Hate to break your bubble swedish guy, but care to tell me what's the format of your country's football league?
I'm sorry if you just found it out and got shocked.
You mean the worst football league in the world? i have no idea...
tell me a big sports league around the world that has absolutely no 'meaningless' games
I guess if everyone has them then we shouldn't strive to get rid of them either. Seriously I don't understand your logic here. How does it matter what everyone else does. Because everything else is shitty, does that mean we should keep things shitty on our end as well?
Then why do you guys act like you found every league in the world is flawed after Naniwa went 0-3?
Here are plausible explanation.
Nothing is perfect yet this rule is generally accepted as the best one by alot of brains and fans around the world
I've never said anything about other leagues in the world. You're the one that brought it up as far as I see. I can't speak for other people though so I don't know what you want me to say.
On December 15 2011 07:08 LunaSea wrote: We came to a point where GOM.tv has so much power that even when they make stupid arbitrary decisions players and teams have to redeem, backpedall and write an apology messages...
This really disgusts me ! This is nowhere near eSport !
And this IS NOT Naniwas fault, IT IS Gom.tv's fault for having badly designed the tournament format period.
It is naniwas fault, he even appologized for it himself. What more do you need?
Just because he apologized doesnt mean its his fault only.
Naniwa and his team took the classy way out of this whole ordeal, and choose to do what was best for everyone in the community and the industry.
Gom just kespa'd naniwa and thats it.
I think both parties are at fault here, the difference is on how they handled the situation, and i personally, am not watching gsl anymore, as much as i love tastosis, im not supporting kespa v2, lets see how well they fare without foreigners in their tournament.
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
I don't understand everyone's criticism of the tournament format... Group stages have been around seemingly forever, and several progamers (including Huk I believe) have expressed that it is their favourite type of tournament play, as it generally negates the occasional occurence of tournament favourites knocking each other out in the early rounds. It's not like GOMTV came up with this brand new, never-before-seen tournament format that just failed miserably... in that sense I'm not sure why GOMTV would have to apologize.
Please let me know if I am missing something... the whole 'group stage format causes useless games' has never seemed to be an issue before this incident, it was assumed that players would act professionally in each match. Is it because there was no prize difference between 4th and 5th place? Is it becaues it's BO1 (it's not like this is new either)? Maybe it has been an issue and I've just never heard of it.
On a side note, the apology is very well done if it is sincere.
Most football leagues if im not mistaken? I think all of them has seeding depending on where you placed last season. Also the bottom 3 or so teams gets demoted so I don't think those have any real meaningless games. Might be wrong though. The format really is crap. And the reason it hasn't been made "public" before is that no shitstorm like the shitstorm that this became has happened before. I bet there has been plenty of matches that has been pointless, alot of them not being played because the players/admins talked and decided they didn't want to play it. The fact that this hasn't happened in korea before is because koreans have been scared shitless of the tyranny of kespa for so many years and they have seen the reprecautions of other peoples mistakes. Foreigners have not which meant this eventually had to happen because now everyone know that you can't do stuff you can normally because koreans have a totally different view on things.
Hate to break your bubble swedish guy, but care to tell me what's the format of your country's football league?
I'm sorry if you just found it out and got shocked.
You mean the worst football league in the world? i have no idea...
tell me a big sports league around the world that has absolutely no 'meaningless' games
Most football leagues around the world actually? If i'm not mistaken teams are seeded depending on their performance the past year. The bottom teams get demoted. So not sure they have pointless games.
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
I don't understand everyone's criticism of the tournament format... Group stages have been around seemingly forever, and several progamers (including Huk I believe) have expressed that it is their favourite type of tournament play, as it generally negates the occasional occurence of tournament favourites knocking each other out in the early rounds. It's not like GOMTV came up with this brand new, never-before-seen tournament format that just failed miserably... in that sense I'm not sure why GOMTV would have to apologize.
Please let me know if I am missing something... the whole 'group stage format causes useless games' has never seemed to be an issue before this incident, it was assumed that players would act professionally in each match. Is it because there was no prize difference between 4th and 5th place? Is it becaues it's BO1 (it's not like this is new either)? Maybe it has been an issue and I've just never heard of it.
On a side note, the apology is very well done if it is sincere.
The format really is crap. And the reason it hasn't been made "public" before is that no shitstorm like the shitstorm that this became has happened before. I bet there has been plenty of matches that has been pointless, alot of them not being played because the players/admins talked and decided they didn't want to play it. The fact that this hasn't happened in korea before is because koreans have been scared shitless of the tyranny of kespa for so many years and they have seen the reprecautions of other peoples mistakes. Foreigners have not which meant this eventually had to happen because now everyone know that you can't do stuff you can normally because koreans have a totally different view on things.
Hate to break your bubble swedish guy, but care to tell me what's the format of your country's football league?
I'm sorry if you just found it out and got shocked.
You mean the worst football league in the world? i have no idea...
tell me a big sports league around the world that has absolutely no 'meaningless' games
GOMTV. GSL. There are no meaningless games.
And now you know. Unless you wanna try and probe rush again. See what happens.
If you use same professional standard that GOM uses, there are in fact many leauges around the world who have no meaningless game. so it is true.
if we go by, Naniwa fanbois argument, all the league around the world are flawed. So why pick on GOM and demand apology? since it is clear this is a format generally accepted as one of the best by many.
On December 15 2011 07:15 Ghostface_Killa wrote: Great response from Quantic, but I doubt Naniwa actually believes anything he said in his apology.
Just look at his Twitter; after apologizing he then re-tweets a quote from Idra saying that if you want your players to take things seriously, not to force them to play meaningless matches. Yeah, Nani is full of shit.
He tweeted that over a day ago. And besides, the retweet is completely in line with Naniwa's statements.
GOMTV have released a statement on the Incident. Posted earlier but buried under the comments -_-
I don't see a reciprocal apology, or even an acknowledgement of their flawed format, in that statement. If anything that GOM statement sounds even more like a canned answer than Quantic's repsonse.
On December 15 2011 06:55 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: Just read goms answer and got even more pissed. They refuse to say that they did anything wrong and that it was even a punishment at all. Bullshit. Own up to the fact that gom got pissed (understandable) and that nani got punished and its all good. Also do NOT bring up bullshit about a format change that supposedly happend now that no one in the community knew about. Even mlg said nani got a code s spot!
ROFL apologise... FOR WHAT?!
You remind me of a kid I knew who hated losing, and wouldn't ever acknowledge that he, and he alone was wrong. He would often say: "I'm sorry, but YOU WERE WRONG TOOOO!!!! I was wrong BUT YOU WERE WRONGER!!! I'VE APOLOGISED NOW IT'S YOUR TURN BITCH!"
The format... is perfectly fine, get the fuck over it. There's only one wrong guy in this whole story, and he apparently issued an apology, so it's okay for now.
You remind me of the kids that used to "tell" everyone about the rules of the game halfway into the game and then wonder why people got pissed.
Nani acted like a stupid whiney child and gom punished him for it but they dont want to admit it because they know he didnt break any rules.
Made up in spot to try to make a valid point... and fails spectacularly. Nice try though.
He offended his opponent, the fans and the organizers. There IS in fact a rule against it.
Any more bullshit you want to spew? Maybe some "fact" you heard around the forums and you keep repeating to yourself and others forever as part of your puny argument? Please let me guess what you will come up with:
1. Not in the rules - refuted already 2. Format is bullshit - the format is fine. every league and their mother uses it. Swedish league uses it for gods sake. 3. ... I can't come up with any more bullshit arguments. please help me and I will try to explain to you, step by step, why it's bullshit
This is a good a time as any for a "Fan Show Match" between Naniwa and Nestea with neither winning anything, but instead a prize given to the fans watching.
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
I don't understand everyone's criticism of the tournament format... Group stages have been around seemingly forever, and several progamers (including Huk I believe) have expressed that it is their favourite type of tournament play, as it generally negates the occasional occurence of tournament favourites knocking each other out in the early rounds. It's not like GOMTV came up with this brand new, never-before-seen tournament format that just failed miserably... in that sense I'm not sure why GOMTV would have to apologize.
Please let me know if I am missing something... the whole 'group stage format causes useless games' has never seemed to be an issue before this incident, it was assumed that players would act professionally in each match. Is it because there was no prize difference between 4th and 5th place? Is it becaues it's BO1 (it's not like this is new either)? Maybe it has been an issue and I've just never heard of it.
On a side note, the apology is very well done if it is sincere.
The format really is crap. And the reason it hasn't been made "public" before is that no shitstorm like the shitstorm that this became has happened before. I bet there has been plenty of matches that has been pointless, alot of them not being played because the players/admins talked and decided they didn't want to play it. The fact that this hasn't happened in korea before is because koreans have been scared shitless of the tyranny of kespa for so many years and they have seen the reprecautions of other peoples mistakes. Foreigners have not which meant this eventually had to happen because now everyone know that you can't do stuff you can normally because koreans have a totally different view on things.
Hate to break your bubble swedish guy, but care to tell me what's the format of your country's football league?
I'm sorry if you just found it out and got shocked.
You mean the worst football league in the world? i have no idea...
tell me a big sports league around the world that has absolutely no 'meaningless' games
GOMTV. GSL. There are no meaningless games.
And now you know. Unless you wanna try and probe rush again. See what happens.
If you use same professional standard that GOM uses, there are in fact many leauges around the world who have no meaningless game. so it is true.
if we go by, Naniwa fanbois argument, all the league around the world are flawed. So why pick on GOM and demand apology? since it is clear this is a format generally accepted as one of the best by many.
What you just wrote made no sense whatsoever.
You asked for a league that has no meaningless games. I told you GSL. None of the games are meaningless. You try in all of the games or you will be kicked out. What else are you trying to ask?
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
I don't understand everyone's criticism of the tournament format... Group stages have been around seemingly forever, and several progamers (including Huk I believe) have expressed that it is their favourite type of tournament play, as it generally negates the occasional occurence of tournament favourites knocking each other out in the early rounds. It's not like GOMTV came up with this brand new, never-before-seen tournament format that just failed miserably... in that sense I'm not sure why GOMTV would have to apologize.
Please let me know if I am missing something... the whole 'group stage format causes useless games' has never seemed to be an issue before this incident, it was assumed that players would act professionally in each match. Is it because there was no prize difference between 4th and 5th place? Is it becaues it's BO1 (it's not like this is new either)? Maybe it has been an issue and I've just never heard of it.
On a side note, the apology is very well done if it is sincere.
The format really is crap. And the reason it hasn't been made "public" before is that no shitstorm like the shitstorm that this became has happened before. I bet there has been plenty of matches that has been pointless, alot of them not being played because the players/admins talked and decided they didn't want to play it. The fact that this hasn't happened in korea before is because koreans have been scared shitless of the tyranny of kespa for so many years and they have seen the reprecautions of other peoples mistakes. Foreigners have not which meant this eventually had to happen because now everyone know that you can't do stuff you can normally because koreans have a totally different view on things.
Hate to break your bubble swedish guy, but care to tell me what's the format of your country's football league?
I'm sorry if you just found it out and got shocked.
You mean the worst football league in the world? i have no idea...
tell me a big sports league around the world that has absolutely no 'meaningless' games
I guess if everyone has them then we shouldn't strive to get rid of them either. Seriously I don't understand your logic here. How does it matter what everyone else does. Because everything else is shitty, does that mean we should keep things shitty on our end as well?
Then why do you guys act like you found every league in the world is flawed after Naniwa went 0-3?
Here are plausible explanation.
Nothing is perfect yet this rule is generally accepted as the best one by alot of brains and fans around the world
I've never said anything about other leagues in the world. You're the one that brought it up as far as I see. I can't speak for other people though so I don't know what you want me to say.
In case you are forgetting what you said, I'm just pointing out that the format may not be as flawed as you believe.
Thank you Johan, I love your statement. Reading those lines... almost doesn't sound like NaNiWa anymore. I think you've grown tremendously as a human as well as a player due to those incidents and consequences. Please keep fighting, you have my support. Crush 'em! :D
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
I don't understand everyone's criticism of the tournament format... Group stages have been around seemingly forever, and several progamers (including Huk I believe) have expressed that it is their favourite type of tournament play, as it generally negates the occasional occurence of tournament favourites knocking each other out in the early rounds. It's not like GOMTV came up with this brand new, never-before-seen tournament format that just failed miserably... in that sense I'm not sure why GOMTV would have to apologize.
Please let me know if I am missing something... the whole 'group stage format causes useless games' has never seemed to be an issue before this incident, it was assumed that players would act professionally in each match. Is it because there was no prize difference between 4th and 5th place? Is it becaues it's BO1 (it's not like this is new either)? Maybe it has been an issue and I've just never heard of it.
On a side note, the apology is very well done if it is sincere.
The format really is crap. And the reason it hasn't been made "public" before is that no shitstorm like the shitstorm that this became has happened before. I bet there has been plenty of matches that has been pointless, alot of them not being played because the players/admins talked and decided they didn't want to play it. The fact that this hasn't happened in korea before is because koreans have been scared shitless of the tyranny of kespa for so many years and they have seen the reprecautions of other peoples mistakes. Foreigners have not which meant this eventually had to happen because now everyone know that you can't do stuff you can normally because koreans have a totally different view on things.
Hate to break your bubble swedish guy, but care to tell me what's the format of your country's football league?
I'm sorry if you just found it out and got shocked.
You mean the worst football league in the world? i have no idea...
tell me a big sports league around the world that has absolutely no 'meaningless' games
GOMTV. GSL. There are no meaningless games.
And now you know. Unless you wanna try and probe rush again. See what happens.
If you use same professional standard that GOM uses, there are in fact many leauges around the world who have no meaningless game. so it is true.
if we go by, Naniwa fanbois argument, all the league around the world are flawed. So why pick on GOM and demand apology? since it is clear this is a format generally accepted as one of the best by many.
What you just wrote made no sense whatsoever.
You asked for a league that has no meaningless games. I told you GSL. None of the games are meaningless. You try in all of the games or you will be kicked out. What else are you trying to ask?
I think you dont understand what I"m saying because you are reading it wrong.
I just expanded on your view and wasn't asking anymore question. happy?
On December 15 2011 06:18 Liquid`Tyler wrote: [quote] Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
I don't understand everyone's criticism of the tournament format... Group stages have been around seemingly forever, and several progamers (including Huk I believe) have expressed that it is their favourite type of tournament play, as it generally negates the occasional occurence of tournament favourites knocking each other out in the early rounds. It's not like GOMTV came up with this brand new, never-before-seen tournament format that just failed miserably... in that sense I'm not sure why GOMTV would have to apologize.
Please let me know if I am missing something... the whole 'group stage format causes useless games' has never seemed to be an issue before this incident, it was assumed that players would act professionally in each match. Is it because there was no prize difference between 4th and 5th place? Is it becaues it's BO1 (it's not like this is new either)? Maybe it has been an issue and I've just never heard of it.
On a side note, the apology is very well done if it is sincere.
The format really is crap. And the reason it hasn't been made "public" before is that no shitstorm like the shitstorm that this became has happened before. I bet there has been plenty of matches that has been pointless, alot of them not being played because the players/admins talked and decided they didn't want to play it. The fact that this hasn't happened in korea before is because koreans have been scared shitless of the tyranny of kespa for so many years and they have seen the reprecautions of other peoples mistakes. Foreigners have not which meant this eventually had to happen because now everyone know that you can't do stuff you can normally because koreans have a totally different view on things.
Hate to break your bubble swedish guy, but care to tell me what's the format of your country's football league?
I'm sorry if you just found it out and got shocked.
You mean the worst football league in the world? i have no idea...
tell me a big sports league around the world that has absolutely no 'meaningless' games
I guess if everyone has them then we shouldn't strive to get rid of them either. Seriously I don't understand your logic here. How does it matter what everyone else does. Because everything else is shitty, does that mean we should keep things shitty on our end as well?
Then why do you guys act like you found every league in the world is flawed after Naniwa went 0-3?
Here are plausible explanation.
Nothing is perfect yet this rule is generally accepted as the best one by alot of brains and fans around the world
I've never said anything about other leagues in the world. You're the one that brought it up as far as I see. I can't speak for other people though so I don't know what you want me to say.
In case you are forgetting what you said, I'm just pointing out that the format may not be as flawed as you believe.
I haven't forgotten anything I said. You brought up "other tournaments" and tried to use that as an argument somehow. I have no idea what the format of other tournaments are and I don't care because I'm only interested in sc2 tournaments. I don't think you know what "most tournaments" in the world are like either since you've likely only seen a small fraction and I don't think what other tournaments does is relevant in any way which was my point all along.
On December 15 2011 07:15 Ghostface_Killa wrote: Great response from Quantic, but I doubt Naniwa actually believes anything he said in his apology.
Just look at his Twitter; after apologizing he then re-tweets a quote from Idra saying that if you want your players to take things seriously, not to force them to play meaningless matches. Yeah, Nani is full of shit.
Quantic Gaming really handled this well for being such a fresh team and Nani's apology was spot on. IMO GOMTV has blown this all out of proportion, this should have settled it but it's not like they can uninvite Sen or Idra by now even if they wanted. Too bad, gl in the future Nani!
The apology is warranted, but I don't think his code change should have happened, but whatever. Stepping out of a tourney to show apology doesn't seem like a step in the right direction either. People are qq'n cause they wanted to see him play, and now he is going to skip a tourney? WhaT?
I don't disrespect his actions either. It was a bad decision, but I don't consider it against his choices.
On December 15 2011 07:02 Mattchew wrote: Quantic put on a $1,000 showmatch BO9 to make this right!
Haven't you understood yet that it's about honor and that a saint like Nestea would never sell his honor for such a low thing. Make it 10,000. He'll come running.
On December 15 2011 06:59 Loweryder wrote: [quote]
I don't understand everyone's criticism of the tournament format... Group stages have been around seemingly forever, and several progamers (including Huk I believe) have expressed that it is their favourite type of tournament play, as it generally negates the occasional occurence of tournament favourites knocking each other out in the early rounds. It's not like GOMTV came up with this brand new, never-before-seen tournament format that just failed miserably... in that sense I'm not sure why GOMTV would have to apologize.
Please let me know if I am missing something... the whole 'group stage format causes useless games' has never seemed to be an issue before this incident, it was assumed that players would act professionally in each match. Is it because there was no prize difference between 4th and 5th place? Is it becaues it's BO1 (it's not like this is new either)? Maybe it has been an issue and I've just never heard of it.
On a side note, the apology is very well done if it is sincere.
The format really is crap. And the reason it hasn't been made "public" before is that no shitstorm like the shitstorm that this became has happened before. I bet there has been plenty of matches that has been pointless, alot of them not being played because the players/admins talked and decided they didn't want to play it. The fact that this hasn't happened in korea before is because koreans have been scared shitless of the tyranny of kespa for so many years and they have seen the reprecautions of other peoples mistakes. Foreigners have not which meant this eventually had to happen because now everyone know that you can't do stuff you can normally because koreans have a totally different view on things.
Hate to break your bubble swedish guy, but care to tell me what's the format of your country's football league?
I'm sorry if you just found it out and got shocked.
You mean the worst football league in the world? i have no idea...
tell me a big sports league around the world that has absolutely no 'meaningless' games
I guess if everyone has them then we shouldn't strive to get rid of them either. Seriously I don't understand your logic here. How does it matter what everyone else does. Because everything else is shitty, does that mean we should keep things shitty on our end as well?
Then why do you guys act like you found every league in the world is flawed after Naniwa went 0-3?
Here are plausible explanation.
Nothing is perfect yet this rule is generally accepted as the best one by alot of brains and fans around the world
I've never said anything about other leagues in the world. You're the one that brought it up as far as I see. I can't speak for other people though so I don't know what you want me to say.
In case you are forgetting what you said, I'm just pointing out that the format may not be as flawed as you believe.
I haven't forgotten anything I said. You brought up "other tournaments" and tried to use that as an argument somehow. I have no idea what the format of other tournaments are and I don't care because I'm only interested in sc2 tournaments. I don't think you know what "most tournaments" in the world are like either since you've likely only seen a small fraction and I don't think what other tournaments does is relevant in any way which was my point all along.
well this is going nowhere fast. I do not want to derail any further but I am an avid sports fan so I know quite a bit about sports in north america and major sporting events around the world. If you want to discuss any further. PM me.
On December 15 2011 07:15 Ghostface_Killa wrote: Great response from Quantic, but I doubt Naniwa actually believes anything he said in his apology.
Just look at his Twitter; after apologizing he then re-tweets a quote from Idra saying that if you want your players to take things seriously, not to force them to play meaningless matches. Yeah, Nani is full of shit.
Wrong, he retweeted that a long time ago. He must have realized what was wrong between then and now. Check your timestamps next time.
On December 15 2011 07:08 LunaSea wrote: We came to a point where GOM.tv has so much power that even when they make stupid arbitrary decisions players and teams have to redeem, backpedall and write an apology messages...
This really disgusts me ! This is nowhere near eSport !
And this IS NOT Naniwas fault, IT IS Gom.tv's fault for having badly designed the tournament format period.
nani's apology along with quantic gaming disagrees with you.
On December 15 2011 07:15 Ghostface_Killa wrote: Great response from Quantic, but I doubt Naniwa actually believes anything he said in his apology.
Just look at his Twitter; after apologizing he then re-tweets a quote from Idra saying that if you want your players to take things seriously, not to force them to play meaningless matches. Yeah, Nani is full of shit.
Wrong, he retweeted that a long time ago. He must have realized what was wrong between then and now. Check your timestamps next time.
Im not a fan of Naniwa, but I do respect him and accept the apology. This whole situation is the weirdest thing I have witnessed in my 1 year history with esports
Good Luck Naniwa, I hope you regain code S and impress :D
On December 15 2011 07:15 Ghostface_Killa wrote: Great response from Quantic, but I doubt Naniwa actually believes anything he said in his apology.
Just look at his Twitter; after apologizing he then re-tweets a quote from Idra saying that if you want your players to take things seriously, not to force them to play meaningless matches. Yeah, Nani is full of shit.
I'm sure they both keep thinking the game was meaningless to play, Nani just apologized for the way he behaved on the game. Should he had cannon rushed or 4 gated or just DT rushed nobody will be talking about this, and the most delicated fans would have get what they wanted.
I just laughed a lot when I saw him do that, then switched to another game, been there, done that. It is easy. I can understand he didn't give a shit.
On December 15 2011 07:15 Ghostface_Killa wrote: Great response from Quantic, but I doubt Naniwa actually believes anything he said in his apology.
Just look at his Twitter; after apologizing he then re-tweets a quote from Idra saying that if you want your players to take things seriously, not to force them to play meaningless matches. Yeah, Nani is full of shit.
Wrong, he retweeted that a long time ago. He must have realized what was wrong between then and now. Check your timestamps next time.
Everyone makes mistakes (Other than MVP, of course)
I think this is a nice learning experience for NaNi. You cannot let your emotions get the best of you on the main stage. It just puts you on the spotlight for criticism.
Would love to see NaNiWa back in Code S though in the future.
Great lets get this drama over with. All its done for me is hesitation in giving GOM any more of my money. Hope they shape up and start taking responsibility for their own tournaments and the outcomes.
Are they going to explicitly ban worker rushes or just deal out this severe punishment to Naniwa?
On December 15 2011 07:08 LunaSea wrote: We came to a point where GOM.tv has so much power that even when they make stupid arbitrary decisions players and teams have to redeem, backpedall and write an apology messages...
This really disgusts me ! This is nowhere near eSport !
And this IS NOT Naniwas fault, IT IS Gom.tv's fault for having badly designed the tournament format period.
nani's apology along with quantic gaming disagrees with you.
Writing an apology doesn't means that you think what you wrote ! Especially when you have a 285 page thread gun pointed at you (not even counting GOM.tv's reaction if he didn't apologized).
The winner of that 1000$ tournament should go to a charity for free speech in dictatorial country's I would choke to death from laughing.
The format really is crap. And the reason it hasn't been made "public" before is that no shitstorm like the shitstorm that this became has happened before. I bet there has been plenty of matches that has been pointless, alot of them not being played because the players/admins talked and decided they didn't want to play it. The fact that this hasn't happened in korea before is because koreans have been scared shitless of the tyranny of kespa for so many years and they have seen the reprecautions of other peoples mistakes. Foreigners have not which meant this eventually had to happen because now everyone know that you can't do stuff you can normally because koreans have a totally different view on things.
Hate to break your bubble swedish guy, but care to tell me what's the format of your country's football league?
I'm sorry if you just found it out and got shocked.
You mean the worst football league in the world? i have no idea...
tell me a big sports league around the world that has absolutely no 'meaningless' games
I guess if everyone has them then we shouldn't strive to get rid of them either. Seriously I don't understand your logic here. How does it matter what everyone else does. Because everything else is shitty, does that mean we should keep things shitty on our end as well?
Then why do you guys act like you found every league in the world is flawed after Naniwa went 0-3?
Here are plausible explanation.
Nothing is perfect yet this rule is generally accepted as the best one by alot of brains and fans around the world
I've never said anything about other leagues in the world. You're the one that brought it up as far as I see. I can't speak for other people though so I don't know what you want me to say.
In case you are forgetting what you said, I'm just pointing out that the format may not be as flawed as you believe.
I haven't forgotten anything I said. You brought up "other tournaments" and tried to use that as an argument somehow. I have no idea what the format of other tournaments are and I don't care because I'm only interested in sc2 tournaments. I don't think you know what "most tournaments" in the world are like either since you've likely only seen a small fraction and I don't think what other tournaments does is relevant in any way which was my point all along.
well this is going nowhere fast. I do not want to derail any further but I am an avid sports fan so I know quite a bit about sports in north america and major sporting events around the world. If you want to discuss any further. PM me.
No thanks I don't want to take that discussion any further either since I don't think we'd get anything out of it . I would like to add my thought on the whole naniwa incident though. I think what he did was definetly wrong but I don't think it should considered against the rules. I think the tournament format itself should present you with enough incentive to want to win if it doesn't then it fails in my opinion. I still think Naniwa has acted immature and poorly not only now but in most events he's been in. I've never liked his personality and never been a fan of him in general. He's obviously a good player though and he plays because he likes to win tournaments and I can respect that. I don't think it should be expected of them to be these great personalities it should only be expected of them to be great at the game and that they follow the rules the tournament set up otherwise you kick them off (even though I don't agree with all the rules). I'm getting a little tired of being labeled a "fanboi" simply because I'm swedish so thought I should get that out there.
On December 15 2011 07:29 azka wrote: Naniwa accepted he was wrong. His fans should do the same.
I'd like to point out that not only his "fans" think that this was an unfair decision. And that Naniwa replied this way might as well be because he feels his chance to play at the GSL is lowered otherwise (or because Quantic forced him to do that). Eitherway, several pro gamers have been criticising the GSL over Naniwa, even before the severe punishment was publicised. Of those that did so I think Tyler might have been the one that I think have most credability in such manner, his post can be found here.
On December 15 2011 06:30 chadissilent wrote: That apology wasn't written by NaNiwa, Quantic PR wrote it up for him.
As I am Swedish myself, some of the wordings in the text and the order of the words sounds very typical for a Swede. My guess is that Quantic asked Naniwa for some words and then Quantic rephrased some of it a bit to look and sound better and with less errors.
Doesn't matter who wrote it. If Naniwa signs it, it's his words.
It's the best possible ending to the mess. Naniwa is a cool character. I hope he sticks around longer.
Thank you, Quantic, for sticking behind your player. It's nice to see a team backing a new player (regardless of their reputation). And though Nani is someone that I more or less "love to hate," I feel for him here. I've gained a bit more respect for him after reading his apology. I wish the best for Quantic and Nani!
I also hope that GOM learns from this too. Naniwa isn't the only one at fault. They need to do their best at avoiding these "dead" games where they need to be played but are just meaningless show matches.
Let's not overlook Naniwa's previous attitude toward gaming and his character in interviews.
Is it likely that Naniwa wrote his own statement and that he believes it? According to me, after having spent several hours watching Naniwa material over the past year, I would say it is not.
Even if he does believe his statement a punishment is required. People cannot act reckless on live (paid) stream when they are the entertainment and expect not receive a penatly of some sort.
Short post shorter: GomTV are doing the right thing putting down their foot showing that they are not to be messed with.
Honestly would've preferred Naniwa to have not apologised, it validates a terrible precedent but he's being forced into it otherwise he could end up locking himself out of future competitions or positive situations. Corporate fan appeasement disingenuity 1 serious competitive approach to games as a legitimate (e)sport 0.
Whether he should want to play every single game to the fullest or not, forcing him to fake it for the sake of entertainment television is not a thing we should be approving of.
I really appreciate the apology from Naniwa. It was very well said, and more than satisfied my feelings on the matter. Hopefully, this will herald a new place for him in his career as a progamer.
If he does indeed follow up on this promise to behave more professionally, I look forward to supporting him wholeheartedly in the future. Until then, I will continue to wish him well. Godspeed, Naniwa.
On December 15 2011 07:39 Jim7 wrote: Good stuff and hopefully everyone is "satisfied".
I also hope that GOM learns from this too. Naniwa isn't the only one at fault. They need to do their best at avoiding these "dead" games where they need to be played but are just meaningless show matches.
The OSL has dead games for years and yet no one has complained.
Few things annoy me more than people second-guessing the stated, transcribed words of progamers based on the bizarre, stupid idea that because they've watched a few of their games they somehow "know" the progamer, and he would never say anything like that.
You don't know Naniwa. He said these words, and approved them. Get over it.
On December 15 2011 07:08 LunaSea wrote: We came to a point where GOM.tv has so much power that even when they make stupid arbitrary decisions players and teams have to redeem, backpedall and write an apology messages... This really disgusts me ! This is nowhere near eSport !
This is something I cant stop thinking about as a truth. I think this also covers LiquidTyler statement with which I also agree. I haven't been ever fan of Naniwa as human being, example of behavior and maturity and I didn't have to cause it wasn't necessary for anyone. However I was always fan of his skill, determination and that I could count on him as a foreigner that could win with some Koreans that thought they were unstoppable. I don't like Naniwa's apology because it somehow deny his nature and I rather have see harsh and surly player but honest with himself than forced against himself to be nice and submissive. But... The apology was necessary strategic and marketing move so I accept it and hope he will get into next season and kick some asses. I watched this game and I didn't fell that something was stolen from even if I pay for it cause players are not some slaves. Moreover there were 3 more games that wasn't planned so still 2 more than supposed to be.
On December 15 2011 07:43 Audemed wrote: Gotta feel bad for quantic. Acquire new player--issue formal apology to GOM and the Esports world 1-week later :o
If anything I think this incident has improved Quantic's reputation by a lot.
He has decided against participating in the coming GSL season as a statement of his sincere regret and in the hopes that he may have a future opportunity to compete in GSL against the world’s best
OMG why would you do that? Your punishment was more than enough as it is. At least this was a sincere apology, which is more than I can say for GomTV's statement.
I sincerely hope that Naniwa actually means what he says.
I can understand how he felt, I'm sure most of us have been there, you try really hard and lose a few close games against people who are really hard to beat, and then you have to play another game where you have nothing to gain and everything to lose (Considering that Naniwa beat Nestea at MLG). Its hard to pick yourself up and play another game at that level.
However making it so obvious he was putting in no effort wasn't the right way to do it at the pro level. People are paying money to watch you play, to broadcast your games, to get you to play in these events. You need to put on a show for them in every game you play.
Still I really don't think the game should of gone ahead, its unlikely both players would be playing their peak game or even using the particular build they have prepared just for that game against each other. We don't play out all of the best of 3 or 7s, as soon as a game has no impact in a tournament (for both players), it shouldn't be played.
Hopefully both sides will go away and next time we both won't have to watch a game where two players are out of the tournament and are not going to play their best and that players who have nothing on line, still put on an entertaining game for the fans and for the people that helped them get that far.
Good statement. Silly he won't compete and try to get into GSL the normal way though. It would really be something if he just competed through qualification & code A to earn himself that code S for next season. It seems like they are hoping GOMTV will give Nani his code S spot for the second season or that he just hopes to get it through other ways again.
On December 15 2011 06:11 dala wrote: Wow, in the past 24 hours NaNiwa has grown up!
I'd say it's pretty obvious that this is just him being forced to act in a specific way, he still doesn't give a shit he just has to pretend he does like all the other pros, hallelulja for being professional! Maybe next tournament he can really go the distance and say "I'll try my best and try to win!" when he's asked how he'll do.
quantic has really good and levelheaded management, hopefully nani can stay with them, that way his PR would definetly improve, as long as he does not anything impulsive again.
Fair play to Naniwa for coming out with this statement. I hope it is all genuine and that he learns his lessons, takes his punishment like a man, and by the February season of GSL this will all be long forgotten. Good luck for the future Naniwa
On December 15 2011 06:08 LiamTheZerg wrote: I respect the team, but have lost any respect to Naniwa or his cut & paste apology. Being an adult and a professional means being able to control yourself, which is something he has failed to show he is capable of time and time again. Also, i dislike the asking to reconsider for a second chance. He openly disrespected GOM during a tournament that was meant to celebrate a great year of StarCraft. It's only a month, he can and should wait. I don't understand where everyone gets this sense of entitlement from. You mess up, you accept your punishment, and you learn from it for next time.
The statement isnt necessarily cut and paste. Are you assuming that someone else wrote it because of how well written it is? That's kind of obnoxious.
Also, maybe he honestly didn't realize how disrespectful his actions were to ANOTHER CULTURE. Ignorance is not an excuse, and so I think his penalty is just. Hopefully we'll see him learn from his mistake and understand Korean culture better.
Those sound nothing like something Naniwa would say, but I'm glad Quantic and "Naniwa" gave the community a statement. Hopefully now people can stop giving a shit, like I did! I'm much happier for it.
Really good statement from Quantic, and it _seems_ shit just got real for Naniwa. Hopefully this will make him grow and understand for real, who knows...
On December 15 2011 06:15 m0ck wrote: Well, pretty much a statement as expected. I hope tomorrow we see GOM being similar upfront about their responsibility for what took place. Bad tournament formats results in perverse incentives, and GOM should own up to that.
Yeah these are my thoughts as well. Naniwa's statement is really generous and respectful of GOM. I hope GOM has the sense to reciprocate.
it doesn't change the fact that, if the format was bad, that the player could abstain from the tourney. Players should not only ever consider the best case scenario, and suddenly lose interest if things turn a turn for the worse.
That said, Naniwa was sincere in his apology, he stated that all games are important, and that's huge.
On December 15 2011 06:08 LiamTheZerg wrote: I respect the team, but have lost any respect to Naniwa or his cut & paste apology. Being an adult and a professional means being able to control yourself, which is something he has failed to show he is capable of time and time again. Also, i dislike the asking to reconsider for a second chance. He openly disrespected GOM during a tournament that was meant to celebrate a great year of StarCraft. It's only a month, he can and should wait. I don't understand where everyone gets this sense of entitlement from. You mess up, you accept your punishment, and you learn from it for next time.
The statement isnt necessarily cut and paste. Are you assuming that someone else wrote it because of how well written it is? That's kind of obnoxious.
Also, maybe he honestly didn't realize how disrespectful his actions were to ANOTHER CULTURE. Ignorance is not an excuse, and so I think his penalty is just. Hopefully we'll see him learn from his mistake and understand Korean culture better.
Not just Korean culture. This is a lesson for all of us. No matter what country we visit for SC2 or otherwise, we must abide by and respect all cultures and learn what the particulars and subtleties are.
Whether it be Sweden, Korea, France, any location. The responsibility is ours to learn the target location culture.
Well said, broski. Here's to hoping that mindset sticks, because it's exactly what will carry him to ever higher levels of pro-gaming stardom.
They aren't asking that GOM lets him back into the code S spot, they're asking that they not be jaded to the notion of him getting one in the future. Very fair, and GOM has said that they aren't going to be that harsh.
great job by quantic and naniwa.im glad that retard fans who support naniwa for this type of bm will understand what is important to not forget as rules in society.
Yes this is written by Quantic PR guy, but before they published it Naniwa agreed to what it said and therefore even though he directly did not say it he stood by what it says. This is how all written PR are done out there outside of the joke of a bubble called esports.
Anyways, what I don't like about this is that this is Blizzard's game, if they don't like worker rush then they would remove the possibility, everything within the scope of the game that isn't a glitch should be allowed to allow for a fair playing field instead of just applying more and more rules onto the game to create a "more competative" environment or whatever goal you have. This is coming from someone who has edited popular WC3 maps where bot owners has placed so ridiculous rules on the maps that the original game doesn't even resemble the way it is played.
On December 15 2011 08:20 callthecops wrote: GOM trying to keep the white man down.. real nice treatment of minorities over there.
Nothing to do with race. There's many cases of Koreans becoming ostracized from the community after committing a disgraceful act, a recent one being Coca and Byun allegedly matchmixing.
On December 15 2011 08:11 Mereel wrote: thats not naniwas statement and will never be lol
Exactly, this statement is most likely not from Naniwa at all and doesn't even reflect his real mindset. But it's still a smart move from Quantic, and definitely a welcome reaction to the recent events.
This stuff happens in REAL sports.. bottom of the 9th inning in baseball? Home teams that are winning don't play it.. but I guess they should "for the fans". What a joke, the guy probe rushed in a game that didn't matter at all. WHO CARES
On December 15 2011 08:11 Mereel wrote: thats not naniwas statement and will never be lol
"The words above were taken directly from NaNi through dictation, but were reviewed by an editor for grammar so long as those updates didn't change the meaning or the message as it was meant to be delivered."
On December 15 2011 07:41 Fandango wrote: Honestly would've preferred Naniwa to have not apologised, it validates a terrible precedent but he's being forced into it otherwise he could end up locking himself out of future competitions or positive situations. Corporate fan appeasement disingenuity 1 serious competitive approach to games as a legitimate (e)sport 0.
Whether he should want to play every single game to the fullest or not, forcing him to fake it for the sake of entertainment television is not a thing we should be approving of.
so are you saying that if a game doesnt determine the outcome of a tournament then people should play like naniwa did and just throw it away? or are you suggesting that you understand naniwa so well that he couldnt have possibly made that apology sincerely, but is instead forced to do it due to corporate obligations? i personally do believe that naniwa did what he did out of pure frustration after losing so many games, and just as he said he sincerely regrets his actions as he realized all the people who took time and effort to organize the event, as well as all the fans that turned up eager for a Naniwa-Nestea rematch were disappointed. Nobody wants to go all the way up to the GOM studio eager to watch 2 titans battle it out again in a grudge match only to see a 6 probe rush and gg. in fact after the pressure was off for both of them to go further in the tournament you'd think they'd turn it into a showmatch full of epicness and crazy risks that they wouldnt dare use in a proper tournament game. i know i went into it fully expecting some craziness, not the most pitiful game of sc2 ive ever seen. so good on naniwa for being mature about his actions. hopefully this will be a good example for all other progamers not to do this
Eh, Naniwa is only coming out with this canned public response after having his Code S seed being taken away, Without this kind of punishment he didn't give a shit, as we saw from the interview with TL:
On December 13 2011 23:22 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Do you have any words to say to your team, fans, and Koreans?
I am very sorry for upsetting people like this, I did what I did because of reasons I explained, I dont have anything more to say to fans or my team, what I said should explain it. Koreans need to stop making such a big deal out of everything , it's going ridiculously far to say that I dont deserve to be called a progamer and such for this kind of thing.
On December 15 2011 08:10 EllipZ wrote: great job by quantic and naniwa.im glad that retard fans who support naniwa for this type of bm will understand what is important to not forget as rules in society.
What rules lol. GOM didn't even reference any rule in their decision. What they're doing is holding Naniwa up to some previously invisible definition of a progamer which they choose to only reveal after an incident already occurred. How was Naniwa supposed to know that where the limits of acceptable conduct according to GOM begin and end if he isn't told. Its extremely unfair to punish someone based on some violation that was only made clear to be a violation after the fact.
On December 15 2011 06:08 LiamTheZerg wrote: I respect the team, but have lost any respect to Naniwa or his cut & paste apology. Being an adult and a professional means being able to control yourself, which is something he has failed to show he is capable of time and time again. Also, i dislike the asking to reconsider for a second chance. He openly disrespected GOM during a tournament that was meant to celebrate a great year of StarCraft. It's only a month, he can and should wait. I don't understand where everyone gets this sense of entitlement from. You mess up, you accept your punishment, and you learn from it for next time.
Its actually 2 months and there are only 5 gsl this season meaning missing out of 1 is 20% of the available rank points and money from the regular seasons. So it is quite a huge loss to not even go to the qualifiers, re-seeding naniwa if he shows better manner and great results in other tournaments like he ussually does would be a huge move for gom imo. Especially if nestea ends up in the same group.
I'm not Naniwa's biggest fan, but I'm not sure if GOM has handled this correctly.
Naniwa was put in a bad situation, and the mistake he made was the he did the one thing that could make this bad situation worse, throwing the game. Whether that's a result of immaturity or mental fragility, it was a stupid thing to do, but he probably shouldn't have been put in that position in the first place.
If GOM's stance at the time was that this was a pointless match, but lets just play it anyway, then I think that's a poor decision on their part, and any punishment to Naniwa should lessened due to them having put him in that silly situation in the first place.
However, GOM may very well have said "Yes, this is a pointless match in the context of the tournament, but given the history between these two we don't want to take this match away from the fans who have been looking forward to it, so lets have it anyway". In which case, they had every right to expect to expect a decent performance at least from each player.
I think a season ban from GSL is pretty harsh, but the decision has been made and there's nothing that can be done now. All we can do is learn from this. Tournaments have to make sure that their formats are spot on, Naniwa has to stop doing silly things, even though he was in a silly situation, because its only making things worse for himself, his team and Starcraft 2 in general.
Naniwa, you've regained my respect. I really thought you'd act immature and lash out at GOM, claiming that you did nothing wrong, but you've realized how you affected thousands of people and I believe you are truly sincere. I hope you are allowed to compete in GSL in the future-- I knew it's been your dream throughout SC2.
lol it's so obvious these aren't 100% his thoughts, unless of course he changed that dramatically in a day, in any case, this is equivalent to someone half ass-ing some cheese build in order to satisfy Koreans/gom/tourny format designers in a meaningless game...
I find it hilarious that you all think koreans are rascist.. I mean I guess I can understand to a degree if your an american and have these thoughts.. But any european thinking these thoughts is a damn hypocrite, koreans are no more rascist than every single western european country itself ..
And I really hope Naniwa meant this shit and he will actually take his position as a progamer seriously in the future.. cus like .. you know.. so far.. all I can say is: "Joke programer"..
What naniwa did clearly wasnt the best thing he could do but it anywhere close to a removal of invite code S penalty. The rule they use to invoke it was not a good one at all and it just makes you think of gom as some kind of a goverement that issues new rules/uses wage ones to control and rule.
No need to apologize for something that wasnt THAT bad, sure it wasnt good but gom is taking it to the extreme. I fully support Naniwa not just as a fan but as a viewer of esport in general, gom need to get their stuff togheter about these rules.
Quantic is a smart team. Making Naniwa write out this statement in hopes of burying with it Naniwa's original "I was tired and I dont owe anything to anyone for throwing a meaningless game" response.
And GOMTV is clearly smart because they actually got both Quantic and Naniwa to write out a groveling apology that would not have happened without the Code S seed removal.
And GOMTV is clearly smart because they actually got both Quantic and Naniwa to write out a groveling apology that would not have happened without the Code S seed removal.
On December 15 2011 06:08 LiamTheZerg wrote: I respect the team, but have lost any respect to Naniwa or his cut & paste apology. Being an adult and a professional means being able to control yourself, which is something he has failed to show he is capable of time and time again. Also, i dislike the asking to reconsider for a second chance. He openly disrespected GOM during a tournament that was meant to celebrate a great year of StarCraft. It's only a month, he can and should wait. I don't understand where everyone gets this sense of entitlement from. You mess up, you accept your punishment, and you learn from it for next time.
I agree.
I wouldn't even be surprised that there are 5-6 pre-rendered apology letters already made with "Insert X-Name".
I also feel like NaNiwa probably doesn't even care about this incident; furthermore I think it was really bold on GOM to revoke him of his GSL Code S spot and more of this should occur.
Nani and Quantic really should not have to apologize I completely understand why Nani did what he did and I cant believe how much of a big deal it has become. If he had fore-fitted people would have understood, if he just 4 gated people would have understood, but do something in between and you need to apologize? No. There would have been no point in anyone seeing both players play half heartedly in a meaningless match. The only people who would have grounds to complain would be Nani or Quantic fans, I am both and i dont feel like I have been deprived of anything but getting to see Nani play in code S, as was promised and expected. Seeing Nani get punished by a bad tournament format where he can be cheesed out in a series of BO1s was enough, after 3 it was over so why make him play a 4th where he obviously could not show his fans what they wanted to see. His fans want to see hi in code S, not watch him get cheesed 3 games in a row and lose his spot. I feel that GOM have to give Nani back his code S spot and then apologize to Nani and Quantic for considering something so harsh. This thread makes me sad and angry it is GOM who are being immature, not Nani. As for Nani will continue to play for Quantic.....did that really have to be said? In 1 game Nani worker rushed and because of that he was punished by losing the game, then lost a code S spot, I think if he lost his team too i would have to stop playing this game due to all the injustice surrounding it.
Koreans need to stop making such a big deal out of everything , it's going ridiculously far to say that I dont deserve to be called a progamer and such for this kind of thing.
This increases my respect for naniwa. The only people who should be upset, if anyone, are his sponsors. They depend upon him playing games, even if said games are showmatches/meaningless. No one else does, especially not fans.
I have lost a massive amount of respect for gomtv from this. They have punished him because of their emotions and cultural nonsense, not because he actually broke any rules. If anyone is unprofessional, it is gomtv, not naniwa. Naniwa played by the book, gomtv didn't.
The punishment in itself is still a bit harsh, but in all honesty punishments never reflect how much is "deserved", only what is "necessary". You don't necessarily deserve the death penalty for a terrible murder, but you might argue that it's necessary (I wouldn't however). And just see what happened! Naniwa, whether he truly believes in what he wrote or not, has at least learned that he has to accept how it has to be. I'd say that's a good thing for everyone involved.
naniwa acted immaturely, but can everyone just remember that hes only 21 years old? I know we've all done some pretty dumb shit we regretted before, so just accept his apology and move on.
Sigh at all those people who say that this format is flawed or bad... ALL FORMATS ARE FLAWED OR BAD in one way or another but the good stuff usually are more and better than their bad stuff.This is a format that is used in many tournaments across the world and in my (and many others) opinion is way better than double elimination or straight up elimination.Players get many chances with this and they dont just fall out to code A because they faced Mvp on the first round.
Naniwa apologised for his behaviour but because you do not agree with this you want GomTv to apologise as well cause you think it is their fault too..... Really? Seriously people need to grow up in this thread and view the real world where REAL SPORTS penalize people for shit like this.Big organisations would not apologise for things they have not done, just because immature people like you(yes you) ask for one.If we really want E-Sports to grow more than they are now we need to penalise bad behaviours from the start and not let them become standards.
Also i hope other pro's do not share Tyler's opinion, cause in my eyes is way immature and childish.Really not something any pro would say anywhere on a world in any professional sport.GROW UP.
Wow. I'm really glad Quantic gaming takes this very seriously and gives out a apology like this. If NaNiwa really means what he said, i'm very impressed by him.
On December 15 2011 08:34 xrapture wrote: Naniwa, you've regained my respect. I really thought you'd act immature and lash out at GOM, claiming that you did nothing wrong, but you've realized how you affected thousands of people and I believe you are truly sincere. I hope you are allowed to compete in GSL in the future-- I knew it's been your dream throughout SC2.
I wouldn't take this apology as his sincere thoughts on the matter. We've seen similar apologies from him for past indiscretions yet he keeps doing silly things.
The reality is that he doesn't seem to have the required mental composure to be a pro gamer. No doubt he has the skills, but you have to be able to be professional and make the right decisions in these awkward situations. Everyone makes mistakes every now and then, but he keeps getting himself in the spotlight due to poor decisions made on his part.
I'd comfortably say that some of the stuff people have been getting on his back over in the last few months have been pretty trivial, but the best way to quell all of the blind hate is for his to just act professionally, which he simply seems incapable of going at this point in time. The punishment has been handed to him, and regardless of whether he deserves it or not, he needs to use this break period to reflect and work on getting his act together.
Glad to see a statement/apology by both Quantic and Naniwa. Hopefully this can be a learning experience for all parties and that everything will just move on
On December 15 2011 08:45 ChineseWife wrote: naniwa acted immaturely, but can everyone just remember that hes only 21 years old? I know we've all done some pretty dumb shit we regretted before, so just accept his apology and move on.
Leenock is 17 but you didnt see him give up and do something stupid when he knew MC was going to crush him....
I hope it works out for Nani, but this is a lesson to be learned. Nani allways has my support, he is a dedicated hard working professional that I do look upto.
Those rational in the community aren't even mad at you Naniwa. GOMTV are the ones who need to apologize for slapping you with a ridiculous penalty over something which was not only minor but not explicitly against any rule. They should be ashamed.
On December 15 2011 08:45 ChineseWife wrote: naniwa acted immaturely, but can everyone just remember that hes only 21 years old? I know we've all done some pretty dumb shit we regretted before, so just accept his apology and move on.
Only 21 years old? When do you think people grow up? :p
Good apology by Naniwa and nice support from Quantic. I don't think GOM will hold a grudge (I think Cocoa will be back soon, too). They want to put on the best competitive show possible and they know people want to see Naniwa play.
I think GOM had to do at least this (revoke the current invite) to show they won't tolerate players undercutting the entertainment value of their show. But a lot of these guys are pretty young and they're going to make mistakes like this and everybody moving forward together is clearly the best way to go. I don't know if they'll offer him a Code S slot in the future, but Naniwa has the chops to either play his way in or earn an invite through MLG or one of the other foreign tournaments.
And imagine the size of the spectacle when he finally meets Nestea in the GSL again...
Naniwa is lucky to have a team like Quantic Gaming supporting him. Hopefully he can get his act together so he doesn't have to go somewhere else. QxG professional as always, becoming more and more of a fan of them.
Meaningless statements from both sides. Everyone knows whats going on on both sides and those statements are just a formal curtain. Of course Naniwa didn't grow up in last 24 hours, also its clear that reasoning behind revoking Naniwa's code S spot is pro-korean, GSL as the global league shouldn't use korean definition of the word "pro-gamer" they should look globally and consider opinion of whole world, not only koreans. Still we don't know what the hell is going on between GSL and MLG and I feel bad for MLG for being deceived by GSL and their excuses that 2012 is the different thing suddenly. I'm glad that GOM realized that the blizzcup format has flaws in it, but taking actions in Naniwa's case after submitting that it was their fault in some degree is kinda strange and unreasonable.
Good luck too Naniwa. I hope you will crush some faces soon enough, too bad it probably won't be in GSL.
Koreans need to stop making such a big deal out of everything , it's going ridiculously far to say that I dont deserve to be called a progamer and such for this kind of thing.
This increases my respect for naniwa. The only people who should be upset, if anyone, are his sponsors. They depend upon him playing games, even if said games are showmatches/meaningless. No one else does, especially not fans.
I have lost a massive amount of respect for gomtv from this. They have punished him because of their emotions and cultural nonsense, not because he actually broke any rules. If anyone is unprofessional, it is gomtv, not naniwa. Naniwa played by the book, gomtv didn't.
majority of sc2 community sees what naniwa did as wrong. he didnt break any rules but he dissed a lot of people. and people are glad a jerk/dick/ass/etc. was punished where usually they're let go freely since they didnt break any rules.
you can say a person's moral value has no place in sports/esports/competition but surely, you must understand why people like boxer and whitera are respected by many.
Koreans need to stop making such a big deal out of everything , it's going ridiculously far to say that I dont deserve to be called a progamer and such for this kind of thing.
This increases my respect for naniwa. The only people who should be upset, if anyone, are his sponsors. They depend upon him playing games, even if said games are showmatches/meaningless. No one else does, especially not fans.
I have lost a massive amount of respect for gomtv from this. They have punished him because of their emotions and cultural nonsense, not because he actually broke any rules. If anyone is unprofessional, it is gomtv, not naniwa. Naniwa played by the book, gomtv didn't.
majority of sc2 community sees what naniwa did as wrong. he didnt break any rules but he dissed a lot of people. and people are glad a jerk/dick/ass/etc. was punished where usually they're let go freely since they didnt break any rules.
you can say a person's moral value has no place in esports but surely, you must understand why people like boxer and whitera are respected by many.
I think what many people hate about the situation is GomTV lack of moral value and transparency. They have show unreliability, lack of professionalism and bending of rules in their "favour" .
Koreans need to stop making such a big deal out of everything , it's going ridiculously far to say that I dont deserve to be called a progamer and such for this kind of thing.
This increases my respect for naniwa. The only people who should be upset, if anyone, are his sponsors. They depend upon him playing games, even if said games are showmatches/meaningless. No one else does, especially not fans.
I have lost a massive amount of respect for gomtv from this. They have punished him because of their emotions and cultural nonsense, not because he actually broke any rules. If anyone is unprofessional, it is gomtv, not naniwa. Naniwa played by the book, gomtv didn't.
majority of sc2 community sees what naniwa did as wrong. he didnt break any rules but he dissed a lot of people. and people are glad a jerk/dick/ass/etc. was punished where usually they're let go freely since they didnt break any rules.
you can say a person's moral value has no place in esports but surely, you must understand why people like boxer and whitera are respected by many.
Different people have different morals. If this game is ever to be truly global people need to realize that and not harshly punish each other for different customs and ideas on morality. I bet everyone in Korea would be equally upset if a western league imposed a harsh penalty on a Korean over a cultural custom that Koreans did not share. If this is such an issue there needs to be some sort of global set of rules and standards including morality that can be put in the open for everyone to follow. Otherwise it is simply unfair to the fans, the players, and the tournament holders.
Good statement. Hopefully gom will now apologies for their bad format that has led to a number of poor quality games. Gomtv needs to learn from their mistakes too.
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
that is why starcraft 2 is taken as a game... because of post like this, to korea it is a sport.
Really nice statement from Naniwa and Quantic, hopefully he learns from this. Plenty of time left to achieve lots of things, hope it doesn't hold back his future development. A shame we won't see Nani in next GSL season, he's been getting so damn good lately.
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
that is why starcraft 2 is taken as a game... because of post like this, to korea it is a sport.
Well that is straight up wrong.
Requiring "GG"? That's game behavior.
Requiring a "love of the game"? That's game behavior. That isn't professional behavior.
Requiring fake effort? That is game behavior, not professional sport behavior.
On December 15 2011 09:09 nekoconeco wrote: Good statement. Hopefully gom will now apologies for their bad format that has led to a number of poor quality games. Gomtv needs to learn from their mistakes too.
I doubt GOM ever will confess their lies and faulty actions. Go f.. yourself GSL...
Koreans need to stop making such a big deal out of everything , it's going ridiculously far to say that I dont deserve to be called a progamer and such for this kind of thing.
This increases my respect for naniwa. The only people who should be upset, if anyone, are his sponsors. They depend upon him playing games, even if said games are showmatches/meaningless. No one else does, especially not fans.
I have lost a massive amount of respect for gomtv from this. They have punished him because of their emotions and cultural nonsense, not because he actually broke any rules. If anyone is unprofessional, it is gomtv, not naniwa. Naniwa played by the book, gomtv didn't.
majority of sc2 community sees what naniwa did as wrong. he didnt break any rules but he dissed a lot of people. and people are glad a jerk/dick/ass/etc. was punished where usually they're let go freely since they didnt break any rules.
you can say a person's moral value has no place in esports but surely, you must understand why people like boxer and whitera are respected by many.
I think what many people hate about the situation is GomTV lack of moral value and transparency. They have show unreliability, lack of professionalism and bending of rules in their "favour" .
in my personal opinion, i agree with gomtv as i value attitude over skill. he indirectly dissed everyone that has respect for esports, a mistake but thats no excuse.
in my neutral opinion, it would have been better for gom to contact the team and talk about what happened and make it clear such behavior isn't acceptable and move on with just a slap on the wrist, it was a emotional mistake after all. (punishment would have been harsher for a korean since most koreans have this professionalism mindset that players like boxer have. and dishonor is not taken lightly which i'm sure many understand by now)
with gomtv's explanation, they said naniwa was being considered for code s spot, not given. what he was given was for blizzard cup. maybe it was lost in translation or misunderstanding between mlg/gom since there is no gsl in december and starting 2012, its a new format.
maybe they're saying what they want for their own hidden motive of wanting to remove naniwa but whatever the case, it only speculation, conspiracy theory if you will.
I love how this thread is Naniwa APOLOGIZING for having done something HE CLEARLY CONSIDERS WAS BAD, and there are still «fans» saying he was right and was not at fault.
Koreans need to stop making such a big deal out of everything , it's going ridiculously far to say that I dont deserve to be called a progamer and such for this kind of thing.
This increases my respect for naniwa. The only people who should be upset, if anyone, are his sponsors. They depend upon him playing games, even if said games are showmatches/meaningless. No one else does, especially not fans.
I have lost a massive amount of respect for gomtv from this. They have punished him because of their emotions and cultural nonsense, not because he actually broke any rules. If anyone is unprofessional, it is gomtv, not naniwa. Naniwa played by the book, gomtv didn't.
majority of sc2 community sees what naniwa did as wrong. he didnt break any rules but he dissed a lot of people. and people are glad a jerk/dick/ass/etc. was punished where usually they're let go freely since they didnt break any rules.
you can say a person's moral value has no place in esports but surely, you must understand why people like boxer and whitera are respected by many.
I think what many people hate about the situation is GomTV lack of moral value and transparency. They have show unreliability, lack of professionalism and bending of rules in their "favour" .
i value attitude over skill.
Than you do not care about professional sports. It's as simple as that. Go watch an amateur game then, where there is nothing on the line.
On December 15 2011 07:08 LunaSea wrote: We came to a point where GOM.tv has so much power that even when they make stupid arbitrary decisions players and teams have to redeem, backpedall and write an apology messages...
This really disgusts me ! This is nowhere near eSport !
And this IS NOT Naniwas fault, IT IS Gom.tv's fault for having badly designed the tournament format period.
It is naniwas fault, he even appologized for it himself. What more do you need?
Just because he apologized doesnt mean its his fault only.
Naniwa and his team took the classy way out of this whole ordeal, and choose to do what was best for everyone in the community and the industry.
Gom just kespa'd naniwa and thats it.
I think both parties are at fault here, the difference is on how they handled the situation, and i personally, am not watching gsl anymore, as much as i love tastosis, im not supporting kespa v2, lets see how well they fare without foreigners in their tournament.
LOL. They'll fare just as well as they have before, how many foreigners have been in Code S for the past few seasons? 1. HuK. Nani has gone a total of 0-10 in GSL and lost to Lucky, a mediocre Code A player a total of 4 games. They'll do just fine.
Koreans need to stop making such a big deal out of everything , it's going ridiculously far to say that I dont deserve to be called a progamer and such for this kind of thing.
This increases my respect for naniwa. The only people who should be upset, if anyone, are his sponsors. They depend upon him playing games, even if said games are showmatches/meaningless. No one else does, especially not fans.
I have lost a massive amount of respect for gomtv from this. They have punished him because of their emotions and cultural nonsense, not because he actually broke any rules. If anyone is unprofessional, it is gomtv, not naniwa. Naniwa played by the book, gomtv didn't.
majority of sc2 community sees what naniwa did as wrong. he didnt break any rules but he dissed a lot of people. and people are glad a jerk/dick/ass/etc. was punished where usually they're let go freely since they didnt break any rules.
you can say a person's moral value has no place in esports but surely, you must understand why people like boxer and whitera are respected by many.
I think what many people hate about the situation is GomTV lack of moral value and transparency. They have show unreliability, lack of professionalism and bending of rules in their "favour" .
i value attitude over skill.
Than you do not care about professional sports. It's as simple as that. Go watch an amateur game then, where there is nothing on the line.
you put words in my mouth. if its too hard for you to comprehend what i'm trying to say, then dont attempt.
On December 15 2011 07:08 LunaSea wrote: We came to a point where GOM.tv has so much power that even when they make stupid arbitrary decisions players and teams have to redeem, backpedall and write an apology messages...
This really disgusts me ! This is nowhere near eSport !
And this IS NOT Naniwas fault, IT IS Gom.tv's fault for having badly designed the tournament format period.
It is naniwas fault, he even appologized for it himself. What more do you need?
Just because he apologized doesnt mean its his fault only.
Naniwa and his team took the classy way out of this whole ordeal, and choose to do what was best for everyone in the community and the industry.
Gom just kespa'd naniwa and thats it.
I think both parties are at fault here, the difference is on how they handled the situation, and i personally, am not watching gsl anymore, as much as i love tastosis, im not supporting kespa v2, lets see how well they fare without foreigners in their tournament.
LOL. They'll fare just as well as they have before, how many foreigners have been in Code S for the past few seasons? 1. HuK. Nani has gone a total of 0-10 in GSL and lost to Lucky, a mediocre Code A player a total of 4 games. They'll do just fine.
Let's see how they fare when their attitude is directly responsible for the end of their countries dominance of SC2...
On December 15 2011 06:46 Skyreaper wrote: If NaNiwa has the quality and skill to compete in Code S, then he would easily(?) win the final in Code A and earn Code S during Jan GSL. Hope to see new NaNiwa in GSL
If you think Code S players "easily" beats the best Code A players or easily beats any Code A player for that matter then you should think again. There's not a big difference between the two. Players fall up and down between code S and code A all the time, the very best code S players have been code A and are likely to be code A again at some point. Take Leenck for example, he dropped out completely from code A in gsl may. Then able to return and make his way to code S. But in code S he lost to Genius and Rainbow then lost his up/down matches to Byun and then to LiveForever so he was back into code A. Now all of a sudden he wins code S. This is how to goes in starcraft 2 at the moment. There is no completely dominant player, everyone is very close in skill that includes code A players not only code S. We don't have a starcraft 2 Flash yet.
On December 15 2011 09:16 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:15 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:07 Eppa! wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:03 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 08:44 Buddhist wrote:
Koreans need to stop making such a big deal out of everything , it's going ridiculously far to say that I dont deserve to be called a progamer and such for this kind of thing.
This increases my respect for naniwa. The only people who should be upset, if anyone, are his sponsors. They depend upon him playing games, even if said games are showmatches/meaningless. No one else does, especially not fans.
I have lost a massive amount of respect for gomtv from this. They have punished him because of their emotions and cultural nonsense, not because he actually broke any rules. If anyone is unprofessional, it is gomtv, not naniwa. Naniwa played by the book, gomtv didn't.
majority of sc2 community sees what naniwa did as wrong. he didnt break any rules but he dissed a lot of people. and people are glad a jerk/dick/ass/etc. was punished where usually they're let go freely since they didnt break any rules.
you can say a person's moral value has no place in esports but surely, you must understand why people like boxer and whitera are respected by many.
I think what many people hate about the situation is GomTV lack of moral value and transparency. They have show unreliability, lack of professionalism and bending of rules in their "favour" .
i value attitude over skill.
Than you do not care about professional sports. It's as simple as that. Go watch an amateur game then, where there is nothing on the line.
you put words in my mouth. if its too hard for you to comprehend what i'm trying to say, then dont attempt.
I wrote exactly what you said: you said you don't care as much about skill as you do about attitude. I suggest you go find something that isn't based entirely upon skill level then.
Boxer has a GREAT attitude. Should he get a GSL Championship because of it? Nope. Attitude means nothing in professional sports. Skill is everything. If you don't agree with this than you clearly don't know what professional sports is about and are suffering under a very common delusion that it's about "love of the game!"
Obviously Naniwa has to apologize, regardless of what he thinks. Not so obvious is what Naniwa himself thinks.
GomTV is laying down the hammer, saying, "Figure out what we want people to be. Then be that person. Better guess right!", and Quantic/Naniwa realizing they don't really have a choice.
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
that is why starcraft 2 is taken as a game... because of post like this, to korea it is a sport.
But team sports are also only games and nothing more. And individual sports are also just competition, nothing more. Sports and esports are not more meaningful or important than a pop-song or a movie. They are all entertainment, nothing more. They are meaningless fun, that is not a wrong thing, but making them more than they are is ridiculous.
Koreans need to stop making such a big deal out of everything , it's going ridiculously far to say that I dont deserve to be called a progamer and such for this kind of thing.
This increases my respect for naniwa. The only people who should be upset, if anyone, are his sponsors. They depend upon him playing games, even if said games are showmatches/meaningless. No one else does, especially not fans.
I have lost a massive amount of respect for gomtv from this. They have punished him because of their emotions and cultural nonsense, not because he actually broke any rules. If anyone is unprofessional, it is gomtv, not naniwa. Naniwa played by the book, gomtv didn't.
majority of sc2 community sees what naniwa did as wrong. he didnt break any rules but he dissed a lot of people. and people are glad a jerk/dick/ass/etc. was punished where usually they're let go freely since they didnt break any rules.
you can say a person's moral value has no place in esports but surely, you must understand why people like boxer and whitera are respected by many.
I think what many people hate about the situation is GomTV lack of moral value and transparency. They have show unreliability, lack of professionalism and bending of rules in their "favour" .
in my personal opinion, i agree with gomtv as i value attitude over skill. he indirectly dissed everyone that has respect for esports, a mistake but thats no excuse.
in my neutral opinion, it would have been better for gom to contact the team and talk about what happened and make it clear such behavior isn't acceptable and move on with just a slap on the wrist, it was a emotional mistake after all. (punishment would have been harsher for a korean since most koreans have this professionalism mindset that players like boxer have.)
with gomtv's explanation, they said naniwa was being considered for code s spot, not given. what he was given was for blizzard cup. maybe it was lost in translation or misunderstanding between mlg/gom since there is no gsl in december and starting 2012, its a new format.
maybe they're saying what they want for their own hidden motive of wanting to remove naniwa but whatever the case, it only speculation, conspiracy theory if you will.
1. They have written (both on Gom TV and MLG) that Nani should have gotten a code S seed according to what they have written on their website. Since code S seed is a price for MLG circuit it should either be payed out regardless (just like $$$). 2. GomTV lacks both explicit and implicit rules.
They need to answer for these thing and improve 2. They are currently changing things around and using vague rules (something like rude behavior towards audience.) Western culture has standards on people (Nani was rude) but companies can not punish without written justification and they can not change things that have been promised.
I do not know about Korean culture but Swedish culture requires companies to hold a standard most often above a person .
On December 15 2011 09:03 DrGreen wrote: Meaningless statements from both sides. Everyone knows whats going on on both sides and those statements are just a formal curtain. Of course Naniwa didn't grow up in last 24 hours, also its clear that reasoning behind revoking Naniwa's code S spot is pro-korean, GSL as the global league shouldn't use korean definition of the word "pro-gamer" they should look globally and consider opinion of whole world, not only koreans..
How is what they did "pro-korean". I am not korean i agree with gom that what naniwa did was unacceptable for a pro-gamer. If anything naniwa was got of light because he is a foreigner, just not getting a code s spot. If a korean had done what naniwa did they would of gotten a ban from GSL for months. Dont blanket the rest of the word as not having the same values as the koreans, I expect pro gamer to have a sense of professionalism just as the koreans do.
I'm not a Naniwa fan, but I still think GOMTV made a stupid decision. If they're going to have a cheesefest bo1 format in groupstages, they should at least have the decency to let players play the way they want, even if that means giving up with a quick proberush rather than faking a 1 hour long game.
god I am so grateful that naniwa didn't troll back. how can anyone not forgive after that statement. sounds like he really didn't know that people would react like this to it.
I don’t just play for myself anymore, but for all the fans of StarCraft 2 and eSports. -Naniwa
enough said, issue resolved, move along. go git your code S spot by winning code A. I will root for you.
On December 15 2011 09:03 DrGreen wrote: Meaningless statements from both sides. Everyone knows whats going on on both sides and those statements are just a formal curtain. Of course Naniwa didn't grow up in last 24 hours, also its clear that reasoning behind revoking Naniwa's code S spot is pro-korean, GSL as the global league shouldn't use korean definition of the word "pro-gamer" they should look globally and consider opinion of whole world, not only koreans..
If a korean had done what naniwa did they would of gotten a ban from GSL for months.
Good job Naniwa. Asking for forgiveness is always the first place to start.
And if this happened to any Korean player, he would have been kicked out of the teamhouse and bannnnnned from ever joining a competitive team, let alone punishments from the GSL,
On December 15 2011 09:16 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:15 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:07 Eppa! wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:03 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 08:44 Buddhist wrote:
Koreans need to stop making such a big deal out of everything , it's going ridiculously far to say that I dont deserve to be called a progamer and such for this kind of thing.
This increases my respect for naniwa. The only people who should be upset, if anyone, are his sponsors. They depend upon him playing games, even if said games are showmatches/meaningless. No one else does, especially not fans.
I have lost a massive amount of respect for gomtv from this. They have punished him because of their emotions and cultural nonsense, not because he actually broke any rules. If anyone is unprofessional, it is gomtv, not naniwa. Naniwa played by the book, gomtv didn't.
majority of sc2 community sees what naniwa did as wrong. he didnt break any rules but he dissed a lot of people. and people are glad a jerk/dick/ass/etc. was punished where usually they're let go freely since they didnt break any rules.
you can say a person's moral value has no place in esports but surely, you must understand why people like boxer and whitera are respected by many.
I think what many people hate about the situation is GomTV lack of moral value and transparency. They have show unreliability, lack of professionalism and bending of rules in their "favour" .
i value attitude over skill.
Than you do not care about professional sports. It's as simple as that. Go watch an amateur game then, where there is nothing on the line.
you put words in my mouth. if its too hard for you to comprehend what i'm trying to say, then dont attempt.
I wrote exactly what you said: you said you don't care as much about skill as you do about attitude. I suggest you go find something that isn't based entirely upon skill level then.
Boxer has a GREAT attitude. Should he get a GSL Championship because of it? Nope. Attitude means nothing in professional sports. Skill is everything. If you don't agree with this than you clearly don't know what professional sports is about and are suffering under a very common delusion that it's about "love of the game!"
"While money is an essential factor in a professional athlete’s life, it is the sincere competitive spirit that enables a mere athlete to become a professional athlete. This spirit entails the will to improve, work hard and try one's best no matter what. It also encompasses a mutual respect between those who share the title of professional athlete, which consequently leads to a certain code of professional conduct. It is this underlying competitive spirit, which goes beyond and is unrelated to any amount of prize money, of every professional athlete that touches and entertains many fans."
i agree with that statement, and its the reason why naniwa is getting hostility.
you clearly disagree. you're interpreting what i say the way you want to interpret it.
On December 15 2011 09:03 DrGreen wrote: Meaningless statements from both sides. Everyone knows whats going on on both sides and those statements are just a formal curtain. Of course Naniwa didn't grow up in last 24 hours, also its clear that reasoning behind revoking Naniwa's code S spot is pro-korean, GSL as the global league shouldn't use korean definition of the word "pro-gamer" they should look globally and consider opinion of whole world, not only koreans..
If a korean had done what naniwa did they would of gotten a ban from GSL for months.
I'm not so sure that I believe that any more.
Do you even watch the GSL / follow it? What happened to Coca? Read up bro!!!!!
On December 15 2011 09:26 Eppa! wrote: 1. They have written (both on Gom TV and MLG) that Nani should have gotten a code S seed according to what they have written on their website. Since code S seed is a price for MLG circuit it should either be payed out regardless (just like $$$). 2. GomTV lacks both explicit and implicit rules.
They need to answer for these thing and improve 2. They are currently changing things around and using vague rules (something like rude behavior towards audience.) Western culture has standards on people (Nani was rude) but companies can not punish without written justification and they can not change things that have been promised.
I do not know about Korean culture but Swedish culture requires companies to hold a standard most often above a person .
Number 2 is something that a lot of tournaments have experienced this year in one way or another. SC2 is still so young, these issues are to be expected in the first few years, the important thing is that everyone learns from it and fixes the issues to the best of their abilities. That's all we can ask for as supporters.
On December 15 2011 09:28 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:27 Quintum_ wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:03 DrGreen wrote: Meaningless statements from both sides. Everyone knows whats going on on both sides and those statements are just a formal curtain. Of course Naniwa didn't grow up in last 24 hours, also its clear that reasoning behind revoking Naniwa's code S spot is pro-korean, GSL as the global league shouldn't use korean definition of the word "pro-gamer" they should look globally and consider opinion of whole world, not only koreans..
If a korean had done what naniwa did they would of gotten a ban from GSL for months.
I'm not so sure that I believe that any more.
Do you even watch the GSL / follow it? What happened to Coca? Read up bro!!!!!
As far as I know, nothing from GOM happened to Coca at all. His coach punished him, which is totally fine, but nothing from GOM.
And don't try the "Oh see they let Boxer punish him!"
Uhh... no. You don't say: "you broke our rules, but some other guy is punishing you so it's cool"
You either punish everyone the same way or you punish no one.
Good job naniwa. I'm really glad that he came out with this apology, and a very well worded one at that. Come back next season and show them what you got =D
On December 15 2011 09:22 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:19 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:16 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:15 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:07 Eppa! wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:03 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 08:44 Buddhist wrote:
Koreans need to stop making such a big deal out of everything , it's going ridiculously far to say that I dont deserve to be called a progamer and such for this kind of thing.
This increases my respect for naniwa. The only people who should be upset, if anyone, are his sponsors. They depend upon him playing games, even if said games are showmatches/meaningless. No one else does, especially not fans.
I have lost a massive amount of respect for gomtv from this. They have punished him because of their emotions and cultural nonsense, not because he actually broke any rules. If anyone is unprofessional, it is gomtv, not naniwa. Naniwa played by the book, gomtv didn't.
majority of sc2 community sees what naniwa did as wrong. he didnt break any rules but he dissed a lot of people. and people are glad a jerk/dick/ass/etc. was punished where usually they're let go freely since they didnt break any rules.
you can say a person's moral value has no place in esports but surely, you must understand why people like boxer and whitera are respected by many.
I think what many people hate about the situation is GomTV lack of moral value and transparency. They have show unreliability, lack of professionalism and bending of rules in their "favour" .
i value attitude over skill.
Than you do not care about professional sports. It's as simple as that. Go watch an amateur game then, where there is nothing on the line.
you put words in my mouth. if its too hard for you to comprehend what i'm trying to say, then dont attempt.
I wrote exactly what you said: you said you don't care as much about skill as you do about attitude. I suggest you go find something that isn't based entirely upon skill level then.
Boxer has a GREAT attitude. Should he get a GSL Championship because of it? Nope. Attitude means nothing in professional sports. Skill is everything. If you don't agree with this than you clearly don't know what professional sports is about and are suffering under a very common delusion that it's about "love of the game!"
"While money is an essential factor in a professional athlete’s life, it is the sincere competitive spirit that enables a mere athlete to become a professional athlete. This spirit entails the will to improve, work hard and try one's best no matter what. It also encompasses a mutual respect between those who share the title of professional athlete, which consequently leads to a certain code of professional conduct. It is this underlying competitive spirit, which goes beyond and is unrelated to any amount of prize money, of every professional athlete that touches and entertains many fans."
i agree with that statement, and its the reason why naniwa is getting hostility.
you clearly disagree. you're interpreting what i say the way you want to interpret it.
That statement is the most self-serving and obviously fake thing I have read in a long time.
Naniwa is getting hostility because he pissed off NesTea and had the balls to not lay down like a girl when GOM tried to treat him like a slave.
On December 15 2011 09:22 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:19 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:16 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:15 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:07 Eppa! wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:03 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 08:44 Buddhist wrote:
Koreans need to stop making such a big deal out of everything , it's going ridiculously far to say that I dont deserve to be called a progamer and such for this kind of thing.
This increases my respect for naniwa. The only people who should be upset, if anyone, are his sponsors. They depend upon him playing games, even if said games are showmatches/meaningless. No one else does, especially not fans.
I have lost a massive amount of respect for gomtv from this. They have punished him because of their emotions and cultural nonsense, not because he actually broke any rules. If anyone is unprofessional, it is gomtv, not naniwa. Naniwa played by the book, gomtv didn't.
majority of sc2 community sees what naniwa did as wrong. he didnt break any rules but he dissed a lot of people. and people are glad a jerk/dick/ass/etc. was punished where usually they're let go freely since they didnt break any rules.
you can say a person's moral value has no place in esports but surely, you must understand why people like boxer and whitera are respected by many.
I think what many people hate about the situation is GomTV lack of moral value and transparency. They have show unreliability, lack of professionalism and bending of rules in their "favour" .
i value attitude over skill.
Than you do not care about professional sports. It's as simple as that. Go watch an amateur game then, where there is nothing on the line.
you put words in my mouth. if its too hard for you to comprehend what i'm trying to say, then dont attempt.
I wrote exactly what you said: you said you don't care as much about skill as you do about attitude. I suggest you go find something that isn't based entirely upon skill level then.
Boxer has a GREAT attitude. Should he get a GSL Championship because of it? Nope. Attitude means nothing in professional sports. Skill is everything. If you don't agree with this than you clearly don't know what professional sports is about and are suffering under a very common delusion that it's about "love of the game!"
"While money is an essential factor in a professional athlete’s life, it is the sincere competitive spirit that enables a mere athlete to become a professional athlete. This spirit entails the will to improve, work hard and try one's best no matter what. It also encompasses a mutual respect between those who share the title of professional athlete, which consequently leads to a certain code of professional conduct. It is this underlying competitive spirit, which goes beyond and is unrelated to any amount of prize money, of every professional athlete that touches and entertains many fans."
i agree with that statement, and its the reason why naniwa is getting hostility.
you clearly disagree. you're interpreting what i say the way you want to interpret it.
That statement is the most self-serving and obviously fake thing I have read in a long time.
Naniwa is getting hostility because he pissed off NesTea and had the balls to not lay down like a girl when GOM tried to treat him like a slave.
put on your foil hat and start a blog on gomtv conspiracy theory.
I'm just really happy this issue has been resolved. Naniwa is a fantastic player and I really look forward to him bossing it up in the future!
Thanks Quantic for taking the time to adress this and Naniwa for actually apologizing in the way that you did. Can't have been easy, it takes a true proffesional and a good person to do it the way you did. Big respect!
On December 15 2011 09:33 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:29 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:22 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:19 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:16 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:15 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:07 Eppa! wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:03 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 08:44 Buddhist wrote: [quote] This increases my respect for naniwa. The only people who should be upset, if anyone, are his sponsors. They depend upon him playing games, even if said games are showmatches/meaningless. No one else does, especially not fans.
I have lost a massive amount of respect for gomtv from this. They have punished him because of their emotions and cultural nonsense, not because he actually broke any rules. If anyone is unprofessional, it is gomtv, not naniwa. Naniwa played by the book, gomtv didn't.
majority of sc2 community sees what naniwa did as wrong. he didnt break any rules but he dissed a lot of people. and people are glad a jerk/dick/ass/etc. was punished where usually they're let go freely since they didnt break any rules.
you can say a person's moral value has no place in esports but surely, you must understand why people like boxer and whitera are respected by many.
I think what many people hate about the situation is GomTV lack of moral value and transparency. They have show unreliability, lack of professionalism and bending of rules in their "favour" .
i value attitude over skill.
Than you do not care about professional sports. It's as simple as that. Go watch an amateur game then, where there is nothing on the line.
you put words in my mouth. if its too hard for you to comprehend what i'm trying to say, then dont attempt.
I wrote exactly what you said: you said you don't care as much about skill as you do about attitude. I suggest you go find something that isn't based entirely upon skill level then.
Boxer has a GREAT attitude. Should he get a GSL Championship because of it? Nope. Attitude means nothing in professional sports. Skill is everything. If you don't agree with this than you clearly don't know what professional sports is about and are suffering under a very common delusion that it's about "love of the game!"
"While money is an essential factor in a professional athlete’s life, it is the sincere competitive spirit that enables a mere athlete to become a professional athlete. This spirit entails the will to improve, work hard and try one's best no matter what. It also encompasses a mutual respect between those who share the title of professional athlete, which consequently leads to a certain code of professional conduct. It is this underlying competitive spirit, which goes beyond and is unrelated to any amount of prize money, of every professional athlete that touches and entertains many fans."
i agree with that statement, and its the reason why naniwa is getting hostility.
you clearly disagree. you're interpreting what i say the way you want to interpret it.
That statement is the most self-serving and obviously fake thing I have read in a long time.
Naniwa is getting hostility because he pissed off NesTea and had the balls to not lay down like a girl when GOM tried to treat him like a slave.
put on your foil hat and start a blog on gomtv conspiracy theory.
Go get a dictionary and learn what the words "conspiracy" and "theory" actually mean.
Not once did I imply a conspiracy, and this isn't my "theory", it's a fact that GOM and everyone supporting them has recognized without realizing it when they claim that it would have been ok just to pretend like he cared.
On December 15 2011 09:22 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:19 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:16 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:15 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:07 Eppa! wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:03 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 08:44 Buddhist wrote:
Koreans need to stop making such a big deal out of everything , it's going ridiculously far to say that I dont deserve to be called a progamer and such for this kind of thing.
This increases my respect for naniwa. The only people who should be upset, if anyone, are his sponsors. They depend upon him playing games, even if said games are showmatches/meaningless. No one else does, especially not fans.
I have lost a massive amount of respect for gomtv from this. They have punished him because of their emotions and cultural nonsense, not because he actually broke any rules. If anyone is unprofessional, it is gomtv, not naniwa. Naniwa played by the book, gomtv didn't.
majority of sc2 community sees what naniwa did as wrong. he didnt break any rules but he dissed a lot of people. and people are glad a jerk/dick/ass/etc. was punished where usually they're let go freely since they didnt break any rules.
you can say a person's moral value has no place in esports but surely, you must understand why people like boxer and whitera are respected by many.
I think what many people hate about the situation is GomTV lack of moral value and transparency. They have show unreliability, lack of professionalism and bending of rules in their "favour" .
i value attitude over skill.
Than you do not care about professional sports. It's as simple as that. Go watch an amateur game then, where there is nothing on the line.
you put words in my mouth. if its too hard for you to comprehend what i'm trying to say, then dont attempt.
I wrote exactly what you said: you said you don't care as much about skill as you do about attitude. I suggest you go find something that isn't based entirely upon skill level then.
Boxer has a GREAT attitude. Should he get a GSL Championship because of it? Nope. Attitude means nothing in professional sports. Skill is everything. If you don't agree with this than you clearly don't know what professional sports is about and are suffering under a very common delusion that it's about "love of the game!"
"While money is an essential factor in a professional athlete’s life, it is the sincere competitive spirit that enables a mere athlete to become a professional athlete. This spirit entails the will to improve, work hard and try one's best no matter what. It also encompasses a mutual respect between those who share the title of professional athlete, which consequently leads to a certain code of professional conduct. It is this underlying competitive spirit, which goes beyond and is unrelated to any amount of prize money, of every professional athlete that touches and entertains many fans."
i agree with that statement, and its the reason why naniwa is getting hostility.
you clearly disagree. you're interpreting what i say the way you want to interpret it.
On December 15 2011 09:28 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:27 Quintum_ wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:03 DrGreen wrote: Meaningless statements from both sides. Everyone knows whats going on on both sides and those statements are just a formal curtain. Of course Naniwa didn't grow up in last 24 hours, also its clear that reasoning behind revoking Naniwa's code S spot is pro-korean, GSL as the global league shouldn't use korean definition of the word "pro-gamer" they should look globally and consider opinion of whole world, not only koreans..
If a korean had done what naniwa did they would of gotten a ban from GSL for months.
I'm not so sure that I believe that any more.
Do you even watch the GSL / follow it? What happened to Coca? Read up bro!!!!!
As far as I know, nothing from GOM happened to Coca at all. His coach punished him, which is totally fine, but nothing from GOM.
And don't try the "Oh see they let Boxer punish him!"
Uhh... no. You don't say: "you broke our rules, but some other guy is punishing you so it's cool"
You either punish everyone the same way or you punish no one.
they said they deemed the team's punishment adequate meaning if the team didn't do anything they would've done something similar or just as severe how can you imply that gomtv would've done nothing even if the team did nothing...
on topic: i gained a lot of respect from reading this statement. although i highly doubt the statement were naniwa's exact words (seems too elegant, lol), the sentiment in the statement seems honest and serious. naniwa has gained at least one more fan after this whole incident. hope he can do well in february.
sry, but this guy doesn`t deserve the term of being a professional because it is not the first mistake he has done...look at the EPS Germany where he got kicked off too and after that he got kicked out of his team...did he learn something out of this? It doesn`t seem so. Yes, he is a really good player, but with such a behavior he will never be a pro...sry
On December 15 2011 09:33 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:29 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:22 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:19 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:16 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:15 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:07 Eppa! wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:03 jinorazi wrote: [quote]
majority of sc2 community sees what naniwa did as wrong. he didnt break any rules but he dissed a lot of people. and people are glad a jerk/dick/ass/etc. was punished where usually they're let go freely since they didnt break any rules.
you can say a person's moral value has no place in esports but surely, you must understand why people like boxer and whitera are respected by many.
I think what many people hate about the situation is GomTV lack of moral value and transparency. They have show unreliability, lack of professionalism and bending of rules in their "favour" .
i value attitude over skill.
Than you do not care about professional sports. It's as simple as that. Go watch an amateur game then, where there is nothing on the line.
you put words in my mouth. if its too hard for you to comprehend what i'm trying to say, then dont attempt.
I wrote exactly what you said: you said you don't care as much about skill as you do about attitude. I suggest you go find something that isn't based entirely upon skill level then.
Boxer has a GREAT attitude. Should he get a GSL Championship because of it? Nope. Attitude means nothing in professional sports. Skill is everything. If you don't agree with this than you clearly don't know what professional sports is about and are suffering under a very common delusion that it's about "love of the game!"
"While money is an essential factor in a professional athlete’s life, it is the sincere competitive spirit that enables a mere athlete to become a professional athlete. This spirit entails the will to improve, work hard and try one's best no matter what. It also encompasses a mutual respect between those who share the title of professional athlete, which consequently leads to a certain code of professional conduct. It is this underlying competitive spirit, which goes beyond and is unrelated to any amount of prize money, of every professional athlete that touches and entertains many fans."
i agree with that statement, and its the reason why naniwa is getting hostility.
you clearly disagree. you're interpreting what i say the way you want to interpret it.
That statement is the most self-serving and obviously fake thing I have read in a long time.
Naniwa is getting hostility because he pissed off NesTea and had the balls to not lay down like a girl when GOM tried to treat him like a slave.
put on your foil hat and start a blog on gomtv conspiracy theory.
Go get a dictionary and learn what the words "conspiracy" and "theory" actually mean.
Not once did I imply a conspiracy, and this isn't my "theory", it's a fact that GOM and everyone supporting them has recognized without realizing it when they claim that it would have been ok just to pretend like he cared.
On December 15 2011 09:28 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:27 Quintum_ wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:03 DrGreen wrote: Meaningless statements from both sides. Everyone knows whats going on on both sides and those statements are just a formal curtain. Of course Naniwa didn't grow up in last 24 hours, also its clear that reasoning behind revoking Naniwa's code S spot is pro-korean, GSL as the global league shouldn't use korean definition of the word "pro-gamer" they should look globally and consider opinion of whole world, not only koreans..
If a korean had done what naniwa did they would of gotten a ban from GSL for months.
I'm not so sure that I believe that any more.
Do you even watch the GSL / follow it? What happened to Coca? Read up bro!!!!!
As far as I know, nothing from GOM happened to Coca at all. His coach punished him, which is totally fine, but nothing from GOM.
And don't try the "Oh see they let Boxer punish him!"
Uhh... no. You don't say: "you broke our rules, but some other guy is punishing you so it's cool"
You either punish everyone the same way or you punish no one.
I cant say i am expert on korean culture but if you dont believe gom would of come down with very harsh banhammer for the coca incident then i dont know what to tell you.
On December 15 2011 09:32 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:29 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:28 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:27 Quintum_ wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:03 DrGreen wrote: Meaningless statements from both sides. Everyone knows whats going on on both sides and those statements are just a formal curtain. Of course Naniwa didn't grow up in last 24 hours, also its clear that reasoning behind revoking Naniwa's code S spot is pro-korean, GSL as the global league shouldn't use korean definition of the word "pro-gamer" they should look globally and consider opinion of whole world, not only koreans..
If a korean had done what naniwa did they would of gotten a ban from GSL for months.
I'm not so sure that I believe that any more.
Do you even watch the GSL / follow it? What happened to Coca? Read up bro!!!!!
As far as I know, nothing from GOM happened to Coca at all. His coach punished him, which is totally fine, but nothing from GOM.
And don't try the "Oh see they let Boxer punish him!"
Uhh... no. You don't say: "you broke our rules, but some other guy is punishing you so it's cool"
You either punish everyone the same way or you punish no one.
they said they deemed the team's punishment adequate meaning if the team didn't do anything they would've done something similar or just as severe how can you imply that gomtv would've done nothing even if the team did nothing...
Because they did nothing. I can imply that they would have done nothing because they did nothing.
I do not doubt that they would do exactly what their fans want them to, including throwing a player under the bus. However, I seriously doubt that many Korean fans would care, especially since they don't care when this happens all the time.
I think Nani needs to practice up a little more, and reprioritize his thoughts about E-sports. Because I think that his actions were highly disrespectful to his fans, and for all of the viewers of the GSL.
On December 15 2011 09:36 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:34 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:33 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:29 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:22 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:19 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:16 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:15 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:07 Eppa! wrote: [quote] I think what many people hate about the situation is GomTV lack of moral value and transparency. They have show unreliability, lack of professionalism and bending of rules in their "favour" .
i value attitude over skill.
Than you do not care about professional sports. It's as simple as that. Go watch an amateur game then, where there is nothing on the line.
you put words in my mouth. if its too hard for you to comprehend what i'm trying to say, then dont attempt.
I wrote exactly what you said: you said you don't care as much about skill as you do about attitude. I suggest you go find something that isn't based entirely upon skill level then.
Boxer has a GREAT attitude. Should he get a GSL Championship because of it? Nope. Attitude means nothing in professional sports. Skill is everything. If you don't agree with this than you clearly don't know what professional sports is about and are suffering under a very common delusion that it's about "love of the game!"
"While money is an essential factor in a professional athlete’s life, it is the sincere competitive spirit that enables a mere athlete to become a professional athlete. This spirit entails the will to improve, work hard and try one's best no matter what. It also encompasses a mutual respect between those who share the title of professional athlete, which consequently leads to a certain code of professional conduct. It is this underlying competitive spirit, which goes beyond and is unrelated to any amount of prize money, of every professional athlete that touches and entertains many fans."
i agree with that statement, and its the reason why naniwa is getting hostility.
you clearly disagree. you're interpreting what i say the way you want to interpret it.
That statement is the most self-serving and obviously fake thing I have read in a long time.
Naniwa is getting hostility because he pissed off NesTea and had the balls to not lay down like a girl when GOM tried to treat him like a slave.
put on your foil hat and start a blog on gomtv conspiracy theory.
Go get a dictionary and learn what the words "conspiracy" and "theory" actually mean.
Not once did I imply a conspiracy, and this isn't my "theory", it's a fact that GOM and everyone supporting them has recognized without realizing it when they claim that it would have been ok just to pretend like he cared.
you're obviously trolling, take care
That's a good excuse to run away. Don't refute any points, just use ad hominem.
Some funny people here Some like that Naniwa issued fake apology for fake issue that arose because of pretend game. Even funnier people are that dislike fake apology because it is clearly fake, but demand fake pretend game to be played, because that is honorable and respectful.
On December 15 2011 09:36 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:34 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:33 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:29 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:22 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:19 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:16 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:15 jinorazi wrote: [quote] i value attitude over skill.
Than you do not care about professional sports. It's as simple as that. Go watch an amateur game then, where there is nothing on the line.
you put words in my mouth. if its too hard for you to comprehend what i'm trying to say, then dont attempt.
I wrote exactly what you said: you said you don't care as much about skill as you do about attitude. I suggest you go find something that isn't based entirely upon skill level then.
Boxer has a GREAT attitude. Should he get a GSL Championship because of it? Nope. Attitude means nothing in professional sports. Skill is everything. If you don't agree with this than you clearly don't know what professional sports is about and are suffering under a very common delusion that it's about "love of the game!"
"While money is an essential factor in a professional athlete’s life, it is the sincere competitive spirit that enables a mere athlete to become a professional athlete. This spirit entails the will to improve, work hard and try one's best no matter what. It also encompasses a mutual respect between those who share the title of professional athlete, which consequently leads to a certain code of professional conduct. It is this underlying competitive spirit, which goes beyond and is unrelated to any amount of prize money, of every professional athlete that touches and entertains many fans."
i agree with that statement, and its the reason why naniwa is getting hostility.
you clearly disagree. you're interpreting what i say the way you want to interpret it.
That statement is the most self-serving and obviously fake thing I have read in a long time.
Naniwa is getting hostility because he pissed off NesTea and had the balls to not lay down like a girl when GOM tried to treat him like a slave.
put on your foil hat and start a blog on gomtv conspiracy theory.
Go get a dictionary and learn what the words "conspiracy" and "theory" actually mean.
Not once did I imply a conspiracy, and this isn't my "theory", it's a fact that GOM and everyone supporting them has recognized without realizing it when they claim that it would have been ok just to pretend like he cared.
you're obviously trolling, take care
That's a good excuse to run away. Don't refute any points, just use ad hominem.
one last one.
your posts have been refuted by many, read em. you're in denial if you really aren't trolling.
your opinion on what goes on behind gomtv closed doors isn't fact, maybe you should pick up a dictionary and see what "fact" means.
On December 15 2011 09:28 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:27 Quintum_ wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:03 DrGreen wrote: Meaningless statements from both sides. Everyone knows whats going on on both sides and those statements are just a formal curtain. Of course Naniwa didn't grow up in last 24 hours, also its clear that reasoning behind revoking Naniwa's code S spot is pro-korean, GSL as the global league shouldn't use korean definition of the word "pro-gamer" they should look globally and consider opinion of whole world, not only koreans..
If a korean had done what naniwa did they would of gotten a ban from GSL for months.
I'm not so sure that I believe that any more.
Do you even watch the GSL / follow it? What happened to Coca? Read up bro!!!!!
As far as I know, nothing from GOM happened to Coca at all. His coach punished him, which is totally fine, but nothing from GOM.
And don't try the "Oh see they let Boxer punish him!"
Uhh... no. You don't say: "you broke our rules, but some other guy is punishing you so it's cool"
You either punish everyone the same way or you punish no one.
GOMs statement about it pretty much confirmed SlayerS did everything before GOM had a chance to. And also GOM also did say if the player was a Korean he possibly would've gotten much worse.
So yeah GOM pretty much confirmed most people's thoughts about CoCa and that drama with GOM not doing anything.
On December 15 2011 09:42 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:40 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:36 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:34 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:33 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:29 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:22 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:19 jinorazi wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:16 MasterBlasterCaster wrote: [quote] Than you do not care about professional sports. It's as simple as that. Go watch an amateur game then, where there is nothing on the line.
you put words in my mouth. if its too hard for you to comprehend what i'm trying to say, then dont attempt.
I wrote exactly what you said: you said you don't care as much about skill as you do about attitude. I suggest you go find something that isn't based entirely upon skill level then.
Boxer has a GREAT attitude. Should he get a GSL Championship because of it? Nope. Attitude means nothing in professional sports. Skill is everything. If you don't agree with this than you clearly don't know what professional sports is about and are suffering under a very common delusion that it's about "love of the game!"
"While money is an essential factor in a professional athlete’s life, it is the sincere competitive spirit that enables a mere athlete to become a professional athlete. This spirit entails the will to improve, work hard and try one's best no matter what. It also encompasses a mutual respect between those who share the title of professional athlete, which consequently leads to a certain code of professional conduct. It is this underlying competitive spirit, which goes beyond and is unrelated to any amount of prize money, of every professional athlete that touches and entertains many fans."
i agree with that statement, and its the reason why naniwa is getting hostility.
you clearly disagree. you're interpreting what i say the way you want to interpret it.
That statement is the most self-serving and obviously fake thing I have read in a long time.
Naniwa is getting hostility because he pissed off NesTea and had the balls to not lay down like a girl when GOM tried to treat him like a slave.
put on your foil hat and start a blog on gomtv conspiracy theory.
Go get a dictionary and learn what the words "conspiracy" and "theory" actually mean.
Not once did I imply a conspiracy, and this isn't my "theory", it's a fact that GOM and everyone supporting them has recognized without realizing it when they claim that it would have been ok just to pretend like he cared.
you're obviously trolling, take care
That's a good excuse to run away. Don't refute any points, just use ad hominem.
one last one.
your posts have been refuted by many, read em. you're in denial if you really aren't trolling.
your opinion on what goes on behind gomtv closed doors isn't fact, like your claim.
Take the time to post one more quoting me where I make any claim about what goes on behind GOMTVs doors?
On December 15 2011 09:32 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:29 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:28 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:27 Quintum_ wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:03 DrGreen wrote: Meaningless statements from both sides. Everyone knows whats going on on both sides and those statements are just a formal curtain. Of course Naniwa didn't grow up in last 24 hours, also its clear that reasoning behind revoking Naniwa's code S spot is pro-korean, GSL as the global league shouldn't use korean definition of the word "pro-gamer" they should look globally and consider opinion of whole world, not only koreans..
If a korean had done what naniwa did they would of gotten a ban from GSL for months.
I'm not so sure that I believe that any more.
Do you even watch the GSL / follow it? What happened to Coca? Read up bro!!!!!
As far as I know, nothing from GOM happened to Coca at all. His coach punished him, which is totally fine, but nothing from GOM.
And don't try the "Oh see they let Boxer punish him!"
Uhh... no. You don't say: "you broke our rules, but some other guy is punishing you so it's cool"
You either punish everyone the same way or you punish no one.
GOMs statement about it pretty much confirmed SlayerS did everything before GOM had a chance to. And also GOM also did say if the player was a Korean he possibly would've gotten much worse.
So yeah GOM pretty much confirmed most people's thoughts about CoCa and that drama with GOM not doing anything.
I'm sorry but you do not let someone who is not affiliated with your organization punish the person for breaking a rule within your organization. That is horribly unprofessional. You cannot then claim that you have enforced anything. You didn't enforce or punish anything.
They SAY if the player was Korean he would have gotten worse. The only way I see that happening is if the fans asked for it, but I don't think they would.
so it seems like gom has released a statement that they are standing behind their decision. Naniwa apologized for the behavior on a formal statement. Quantic Gaming is ok with Gom's decision and apologizes for their teammates behavior.
people of interwebz are still outraged by the whole ordeal. sounds like yall need to take esports news a bit less seriously.
I still see the nonsense about "bad tournament formats". Many, many OSL and MSLs have had such "bad tournament formats" with "outrageous meaningless games". Perhaps it's time some of the fans woke up and realized there's no such thing as a meaningless game just because prize money isn't involved.
I'm glad MLB, NBA, NHL, and NFL teams don't try to forfeit games where both teams are unable to reach the playoffs. Huk's blame placed on GOM for supposedly poor tournament design is ridiculous in light of this. Look at how hard Matt Barkley and the rest of USC played this season even though they knew from game 1 that they couldn't play in a conference championship game or bowl game (for the uninitiated, see: http://lostangelesblog.wordpress.com/). That is how sports are to be played and life is to be lived.
This has absolutely nothing to do with any supposed cultural difference between Korea and NA / Europe. The OSL is the crown jewel of eSports, the shining example of how to make a computer game into an exciting cultural event. And just about every OSL round of 16 contains games between people who can't make the round of 8. I don't remember anyone throwing such games that badly. If a player did something that was suboptimal, they did something fun and creative for the fans, such as (I believe) Much trying to use Corsairs in PvT. Even though the Clippers are still not NBA Finals material with Blake Griffin, his enthusiasm and flashy dunks put more happy people in the seats.
The very first GOM event with Tasteless, the very first eSport event I ever watched, the GOM Star Invitational, had a group with both Nada and Boxer. Tasteless had been talking them up all tournament but by the time they faced off, they were both 0-2 and couldn't make the next round. They had no problem with showing up, getting in the booths, and putting on a great show. Imagine how much worse my first impression of eSports would have been, how much less seriously I would take it, had one of them blatantly lost on purpose. I might never have watched another tournament.
eSports is nascent; every day someone comes into contact with it the first time and for GOM TV and all of us who are trying to foster it, it is vital that we respect the virtues that keep its spirit alive. Losing a match on purpose, whether anyone bet on it or not, is unbecoming. Nobody on the other side of the planet wants to stay up until the wee hours of the morning to watch a sports show where at any time some player just might not feel like playing. That type of attitude is cancerous and NaNiWa already should have been on his best behavior given his team troubles, which makes his newest statement in response to his newest controversy too unreliable for GOM to keep him around for Code S.
The job of the eAthlete is to put their honest best effort into the contests. It doesn't matter if you are the supposed best actor in the world, if you talk like a robot on purpose and don't show up on set just because you think the movie sucks then you deserve to get fired.
On December 15 2011 09:49 Keyboard Warrior wrote: This is a bit late, but better than none. Anyway, Naniwa just please please please grow up. We your fans are here to support you all the way!
This is incredibly important, as GSL is leading Esport and if GomTV can do things without justification it may lead SC2 esports into a shitty hole.
Great statements by Naniwa on Lo3! A lot more respect for what he has said so far: he took the blame, promised to not just 4 gate but truly play his heart out next time in the same situation and also refuted things like "he tried to forfeit but Gom didn't allow it."
I do wish he were better at public speaking so we'd hear more of what he actually means and thinks.
On December 15 2011 09:50 FieryBalrog wrote: I still see the nonsense about "bad tournament formats". Many, many OSL and MSLs have had such "bad tournament formats" with "outrageous meaningless games". Perhaps it's time some of the fans woke up and realized there's no such thing as a meaningless game just because prize money isn't involved.
pretty much all the tournaments in the world have this 'meaningless games'
naniwa fanboys just found out about it when naniwa got 0-3ed
anyway I think if Naniwa can show through the action that he is a changed man, I'm all good. This scene needs changed Naniwa.
On December 15 2011 09:50 FieryBalrog wrote: I still see the nonsense about "bad tournament formats". Many, many OSL and MSLs have had such "bad tournament formats" with "outrageous meaningless games". Perhaps it's time some of the fans woke up and realized there's no such thing as a meaningless game just because prize money isn't involved.
pretty much all the tournaments in the world have this 'meaningless games'
naniwa fanboys just found out about it when naniwa got 0-3ed
anyway I think if Naniwa can show through the action that he is a changed man, I'm all good. This scene needs changed Naniwa.
Actually you usually are playing for SOMETHING.
If not, then why the fuck do I care about watching it?
On December 15 2011 09:50 FieryBalrog wrote: I still see the nonsense about "bad tournament formats". Many, many OSL and MSLs have had such "bad tournament formats" with "outrageous meaningless games". Perhaps it's time some of the fans woke up and realized there's no such thing as a meaningless game just because prize money isn't involved.
pretty much all the tournaments in the world have this 'meaningless games'
naniwa fanboys just found out about it when naniwa got 0-3ed
anyway I think if Naniwa can show through the action that he is a changed man, I'm all good. This scene needs changed Naniwa.
Actually you usually are playing for SOMETHING.
If not, then why the fuck do I care about watching it?
Usually? yes
always? no
still whoever is playing gives effort and such professional ethic is required in pretty much all the league I watch.
Ok, as someone who was disgusted with Nani and ready to crucify him after the incident, I must say that he, GOM, and Quantic handled this situation very well for what it was.
I am happy with all parties involved after their respective statements.
On December 15 2011 09:54 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:52 Govou wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:50 FieryBalrog wrote: I still see the nonsense about "bad tournament formats". Many, many OSL and MSLs have had such "bad tournament formats" with "outrageous meaningless games". Perhaps it's time some of the fans woke up and realized there's no such thing as a meaningless game just because prize money isn't involved.
pretty much all the tournaments in the world have this 'meaningless games'
naniwa fanboys just found out about it when naniwa got 0-3ed
anyway I think if Naniwa can show through the action that he is a changed man, I'm all good. This scene needs changed Naniwa.
Actually you usually are playing for SOMETHING.
If not, then why the fuck do I care about watching it?
Usually? yes
always? no
still whoever is playing gives effort and such professional ethic is required in pretty much all the league I watch.
Why do you care if they pretend to give effort or not?
no one cared when idra went to sleep instead of playing his pool matches at the IPL finals, but naniwa is suddenly an antichrist for what he did at gsl.
this community is really getting worse as time goes on.
While his apology is a good thing, I wouldn't be so quick to believe him. After so many records of his bad mannerism, I think we should all reserve our judgement until the next time a similar situation arises and see how he handles the situation. He does not deserve immediate forgiveness of any sort from anyone at the moment.
On December 15 2011 09:58 bobohobo wrote: While his apology is a good thing, I wouldn't be so quick to believe him. After so many records of his bad mannerism, I think we should all reserve our judgement until the next time a similar situation arises and see how he handles the situation. He does not deserve immediate forgiveness of any sort from anyone at the moment.
Why do you feel that you have any right to "forgive" him for anything? Who are you?
Lol i think complexity predicted something like this would happen and gave him the boot... and now quantic is stuck with the aftermath haha. Either way it does seem he's growing up though. Good news.
On December 15 2011 09:54 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:52 Govou wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:50 FieryBalrog wrote: I still see the nonsense about "bad tournament formats". Many, many OSL and MSLs have had such "bad tournament formats" with "outrageous meaningless games". Perhaps it's time some of the fans woke up and realized there's no such thing as a meaningless game just because prize money isn't involved.
pretty much all the tournaments in the world have this 'meaningless games'
naniwa fanboys just found out about it when naniwa got 0-3ed
anyway I think if Naniwa can show through the action that he is a changed man, I'm all good. This scene needs changed Naniwa.
Actually you usually are playing for SOMETHING.
If not, then why the fuck do I care about watching it?
Usually? yes
always? no
still whoever is playing gives effort and such professional ethic is required in pretty much all the league I watch.
Why do you care if they pretend to give effort or not?
Actually, I think it's pretty common sense that doesn't even require furthur explanation. Anyway this is Naniwa thread and I wont derail it by engaging it with you. I have a feeling you will not accept my explanation no matter what I say.
If you really want to hear it more, then search around. Ive made comment about it many times today alone.
On December 15 2011 09:57 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:56 Govou wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:54 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:52 Govou wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:50 FieryBalrog wrote: I still see the nonsense about "bad tournament formats". Many, many OSL and MSLs have had such "bad tournament formats" with "outrageous meaningless games". Perhaps it's time some of the fans woke up and realized there's no such thing as a meaningless game just because prize money isn't involved.
pretty much all the tournaments in the world have this 'meaningless games'
naniwa fanboys just found out about it when naniwa got 0-3ed
anyway I think if Naniwa can show through the action that he is a changed man, I'm all good. This scene needs changed Naniwa.
Actually you usually are playing for SOMETHING.
If not, then why the fuck do I care about watching it?
Usually? yes
always? no
still whoever is playing gives effort and such professional ethic is required in pretty much all the league I watch.
Why do you care if they pretend to give effort or not?
Actually, I think it's pretty common sense that doesn't even require furthur explanation. Anyway this is Naniwa thread and I wont derail it by engaging it with you. I have a feeling you will not accept my explanation no matter what I say.
If you really want to hear it more, then search around. Ive made comment about it many times today alone.
It's a rhetorical question. The only legitimate answer is:
I shouldn't and the only reason I do is because I am still filled with a child's idea of how things should work.
On December 15 2011 09:58 Teogamer wrote: no one cared when idra went to sleep instead of playing his pool matches at the IPL finals, but naniwa is suddenly an antichrist for what he did at gsl.
this community is really getting worse as time goes on.
I am pretty sure people were pissed at Idra in the LR thread for IPL3. It wasn't as big of a deal but dont downplay it as if nothing happened.
On December 15 2011 09:32 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:29 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:28 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:27 Quintum_ wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:03 DrGreen wrote: Meaningless statements from both sides. Everyone knows whats going on on both sides and those statements are just a formal curtain. Of course Naniwa didn't grow up in last 24 hours, also its clear that reasoning behind revoking Naniwa's code S spot is pro-korean, GSL as the global league shouldn't use korean definition of the word "pro-gamer" they should look globally and consider opinion of whole world, not only koreans..
If a korean had done what naniwa did they would of gotten a ban from GSL for months.
I'm not so sure that I believe that any more.
Do you even watch the GSL / follow it? What happened to Coca? Read up bro!!!!!
As far as I know, nothing from GOM happened to Coca at all. His coach punished him, which is totally fine, but nothing from GOM.
And don't try the "Oh see they let Boxer punish him!"
Uhh... no. You don't say: "you broke our rules, but some other guy is punishing you so it's cool"
You either punish everyone the same way or you punish no one.
GOMs statement about it pretty much confirmed SlayerS did everything before GOM had a chance to. And also GOM also did say if the player was a Korean he possibly would've gotten much worse.
So yeah GOM pretty much confirmed most people's thoughts about CoCa and that drama with GOM not doing anything.
I'm sorry but you do not let someone who is not affiliated with your organization punish the person for breaking a rule within your organization. That is horribly unprofessional. You cannot then claim that you have enforced anything. You didn't enforce or punish anything.
They SAY if the player was Korean he would have gotten worse. The only way I see that happening is if the fans asked for it, but I don't think they would.
What GOM rule did CoCa break? He was in a different tournament. One unaffiliated with GOM. It is that tournaments responsibility to handle the situation, not GOMs. GOM is not Kespa. GOM is a tournament organizer. ESV handled the situation and hence banned CoCa til 2012.
And yes the Korean would've gotten worse. If you're Korean, you know the culture, you know how despised it is, you're not gonna do that and if you do then lol you're fucked.
On December 15 2011 09:58 Teogamer wrote: no one cared when idra went to sleep instead of playing his pool matches at the IPL finals, but naniwa is suddenly an antichrist for what he did at gsl.
this community is really getting worse as time goes on.
I am pretty sure people were pissed at Idra in the LR thread for IPL3. It wasn't as big of a deal but dont downplay it as if nothing happened.
Go look at the LR thread. Very few people cared and more people defended him by far than attacked him.
It is an entirely different thing though - the pool play there basically meant nothing.
On December 15 2011 09:47 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:45 Femari wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:32 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:29 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:28 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:27 Quintum_ wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:03 DrGreen wrote: Meaningless statements from both sides. Everyone knows whats going on on both sides and those statements are just a formal curtain. Of course Naniwa didn't grow up in last 24 hours, also its clear that reasoning behind revoking Naniwa's code S spot is pro-korean, GSL as the global league shouldn't use korean definition of the word "pro-gamer" they should look globally and consider opinion of whole world, not only koreans..
If a korean had done what naniwa did they would of gotten a ban from GSL for months.
I'm not so sure that I believe that any more.
Do you even watch the GSL / follow it? What happened to Coca? Read up bro!!!!!
As far as I know, nothing from GOM happened to Coca at all. His coach punished him, which is totally fine, but nothing from GOM.
And don't try the "Oh see they let Boxer punish him!"
Uhh... no. You don't say: "you broke our rules, but some other guy is punishing you so it's cool"
You either punish everyone the same way or you punish no one.
GOMs statement about it pretty much confirmed SlayerS did everything before GOM had a chance to. And also GOM also did say if the player was a Korean he possibly would've gotten much worse.
So yeah GOM pretty much confirmed most people's thoughts about CoCa and that drama with GOM not doing anything.
I'm sorry but you do not let someone who is not affiliated with your organization punish the person for breaking a rule within your organization. That is horribly unprofessional. You cannot then claim that you have enforced anything. You didn't enforce or punish anything.
They SAY if the player was Korean he would have gotten worse. The only way I see that happening is if the fans asked for it, but I don't think they would.
And yes the Korean would've gotten worse. If you're Korean, you know the culture, you know how despised it is, you're not gonna do that and if you do then lol you're fucked.
That's why I hear multiple stories of Koreans throwing games, and have personally seen Koreans throw games, and not only does no one care; but you are about to tell me why it wasn't actually the same and it's ok because Koreans did it and Nani is a huge dick.
So yeah, you can understand if I'm not so positive anymore.
i love how naniwa goes from apologizing here, to spinning on onemoregame......it's just like what happened in the quantic gaming, he could have left it at "we didn't really agree about things" and this whole situation could be over. Now, unless by some miracle he holds back key phrases (which he hasn't yet) shits gonna hit the fan even harder.
In Korea and in Asia in general, we hold people like boxer in very high regard. No matter what the circumstance, we respect people who try their best 100% of the time. That is why there was so much backlash from the Korean community.
Perhaps if this was a western tournament people wouldn't be so angry.
Quantic and Naniwa, however, made a very good PR statement here. They handled the situation with as much grace as possible.
On December 15 2011 09:50 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: I'm glad MLB, NBA, NHL, and NFL teams don't try to forfeit games where both teams are unable to reach the playoffs. Huk's blame placed on GOM for supposedly poor tournament design is ridiculous in light of this. Look at how hard Matt Barkley and the rest of USC played this season even though they knew from game 1 that they couldn't play in a conference championship game or bowl game (for the uninitiated, see: http://lostangelesblog.wordpress.com/). That is how sports are to be played and life is to be lived.
This has absolutely nothing to do with any supposed cultural difference between Korea and NA / Europe. The OSL is the crown jewel of eSports, the shining example of how to make a computer game into an exciting cultural event. And just about every OSL round of 16 contains games between people who can't make the round of 8. I don't remember anyone throwing such games that badly. If a player did something that was suboptimal, they did something fun and creative for the fans, such as (I believe) Much trying to use Corsairs in PvT. Even though the Clippers are still not NBA Finals material with Blake Griffin, his enthusiasm and flashy dunks put more happy people in the seats.
The very first GOM event with Tasteless, the very first eSport event I ever watched, the GOM Star Invitational, had a group with both Nada and Boxer. Tasteless had been talking them up all tournament but by the time they faced off, they were both 0-2 and couldn't make the next round. They had no problem with showing up, getting in the booths, and putting on a great show. Imagine how much worse my first impression of eSports would have been, how much less seriously I would take it, had one of them blatantly lost on purpose. I might never have watched another tournament.
eSports is nascent; every day someone comes into contact with it the first time and for GOM TV and all of us who are trying to foster it, it is vital that we respect the virtues that keep its spirit alive. Losing a match on purpose, whether anyone bet on it or not, is unbecoming. Nobody on the other side of the planet wants to stay up until the wee hours of the morning to watch a sports show where at any time some player just might not feel like playing. That type of attitude is cancerous and NaNiWa already should have been on his best behavior given his team troubles, which makes his newest statement in response to his newest controversy too unreliable for GOM to keep him around for Code S.
The job of the eAthlete is to put their honest best effort into the contests. It doesn't matter if you are the supposed best actor in the world, if you talk like a robot on purpose and don't show up on set just because you think the movie sucks then you deserve to get fired.
But why this has to be standard ? Not all fans care for the fun pretend games. Not all players are good at pretending. Why cannot there be a diversity, why not let players that want to play for fans do that and those that do not likewise ? Do we really want a bunch of dishonest actors, it seems that majority (although not overwhelming majority) wants fake, but nicely looking facade. This is exactly the place where market forces would work great. Players that do not attract fans and sponsors would just not have them, there is no reason to force everyone into the same box. Point of the professional scene is in money, so let the market decide. And yes I support tournaments to just not invite players that they do not like, but in transparent manner and with the knowledge that it might bite them in the ass.
On December 15 2011 09:58 Teogamer wrote: no one cared when idra went to sleep instead of playing his pool matches at the IPL finals, but naniwa is suddenly an antichrist for what he did at gsl.
this community is really getting worse as time goes on.
I am pretty sure people were pissed at Idra in the LR thread for IPL3. It wasn't as big of a deal but dont downplay it as if nothing happened.
Go look at the LR thread. Very few people cared and more people defended him by far than attacked him.
It is an entirely different thing though - the pool play there basically meant nothing.
On December 15 2011 09:58 Teogamer wrote: no one cared when idra went to sleep instead of playing his pool matches at the IPL finals, but naniwa is suddenly an antichrist for what he did at gsl.
this community is really getting worse as time goes on.
I am pretty sure people were pissed at Idra in the LR thread for IPL3. It wasn't as big of a deal but dont downplay it as if nothing happened.
Go look at the LR thread. Very few people cared and more people defended him by far than attacked him.
It is an entirely different thing though - the pool play there basically meant nothing.
And the Naniwa/Nestea Blizzcup was meaningful?
Because it seemed meaningless to you and Naniwa few days ago, doesn't mean it's meaningless for everyone.
Like Naniwa said in OP, progamer does not play for himself.
On December 15 2011 09:50 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: I'm glad MLB, NBA, NHL, and NFL teams don't try to forfeit games where both teams are unable to reach the playoffs. Huk's blame placed on GOM for supposedly poor tournament design is ridiculous in light of this. Look at how hard Matt Barkley and the rest of USC played this season even though they knew from game 1 that they couldn't play in a conference championship game or bowl game (for the uninitiated, see: http://lostangelesblog.wordpress.com/). That is how sports are to be played and life is to be lived.
This has absolutely nothing to do with any supposed cultural difference between Korea and NA / Europe. The OSL is the crown jewel of eSports, the shining example of how to make a computer game into an exciting cultural event. And just about every OSL round of 16 contains games between people who can't make the round of 8. I don't remember anyone throwing such games that badly. If a player did something that was suboptimal, they did something fun and creative for the fans, such as (I believe) Much trying to use Corsairs in PvT. Even though the Clippers are still not NBA Finals material with Blake Griffin, his enthusiasm and flashy dunks put more happy people in the seats.
The very first GOM event with Tasteless, the very first eSport event I ever watched, the GOM Star Invitational, had a group with both Nada and Boxer. Tasteless had been talking them up all tournament but by the time they faced off, they were both 0-2 and couldn't make the next round. They had no problem with showing up, getting in the booths, and putting on a great show. Imagine how much worse my first impression of eSports would have been, how much less seriously I would take it, had one of them blatantly lost on purpose. I might never have watched another tournament.
eSports is nascent; every day someone comes into contact with it the first time and for GOM TV and all of us who are trying to foster it, it is vital that we respect the virtues that keep its spirit alive. Losing a match on purpose, whether anyone bet on it or not, is unbecoming. Nobody on the other side of the planet wants to stay up until the wee hours of the morning to watch a sports show where at any time some player just might not feel like playing. That type of attitude is cancerous and NaNiWa already should have been on his best behavior given his team troubles, which makes his newest statement in response to his newest controversy too unreliable for GOM to keep him around for Code S.
The job of the eAthlete is to put their honest best effort into the contests. It doesn't matter if you are the supposed best actor in the world, if you talk like a robot on purpose and don't show up on set just because you think the movie sucks then you deserve to get fired.
But why this has to be standard ? Not all fans care for the fun pretend games. Not all players are good at pretending. Why cannot there be a diversity, why not let players that want to play for fans do that and those that do not likewise ? Do we really want a bunch of dishonest actors, it seems that majority (although not overwhelming majority) wants fake, but nicely looking facade. This is exactly the place where market forces would work great. Players that do not attract fans and sponsors would just not have them, there is no reason to force everyone into the same box. Point of the professional scene is in money, so let the market decide. And yes I support tournaments to just not invite players that they do not like, but in transparent manner and with the knowledge that it might bite them in the ass.
No game is a pretend game; that is the proper attitude. Especially not a game that is in booths, on a stage, in front of fans (some of them paying), and in front of real commentators, and with real sponsors. The point, though, is never money; money is means.
I am especially disappointed that Naniwa would throw a game against Nestea, with whom he has developed a special rivalry with recently. If he can't get excited about showing that, even at 0-3, he is still playing better than Nestea, than it seems Naniwa's motivations are far too narrow, as he has indicated in his statement. So, I hope he takes that to heart.
On December 15 2011 10:27 Parcelleus wrote: SC2 just got worse cos of this pathetic display of player bashing cos he is himself.
Lost alot of respect for the sc2 'scene'.
The people trying to run Naniwa's life are even worse. How dare he be himself ? PLease.
Nobody is trying to ruin Naninwa's life except himself. If he doesn't conform to some of the rules of the big world such as that you show respect to others you'll run into trouble sooner or later. That sooner or later is now for Naniwa. He can either learn from this or he can continue on his path and keep shooting his own leg. Looking at the apology he is taking this the right way. It is nice of course that we have good fairy godmothers such as yourself to nurture him and to tell him that he can act any way he wants and it's okay. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that and the sooner he changes his behaviour (this does not mean losing any of his so-called passion or even his way of thinking) at least in the public the better off he is.
It is just mind-boggling that some people think you can act in any way you want. You can't. Sometimes you just have to do unpleasant things like play a quick game of SC2 in front of a crowd. It may not feel nice at the moment but if you don't and you step on people's toes then don't be surprised if there are consequences (no, I don't think GOM's decision was optimal).
On December 15 2011 10:27 Parcelleus wrote: SC2 just got worse cos of this pathetic display of player bashing cos he is himself.
Lost alot of respect for the sc2 'scene'.
The people trying to run Naniwa's life are even worse. How dare he be himself ? PLease.
Nobody is trying to ruin Naninwa's life except himself. If he doesn't conform to some of the rules of the big world such as that you show respect to others you'll run into trouble sooner or later. That sooner or later is now for Naniwa. He can either learn from this or he can continue on his path and keep shooting his own leg. Looking at the apology he is taking this the right way. It is nice of course that we have good fairy godmothers such as yourself to nurture him and to tell him that he can act any way he wants and it's okay. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that and the sooner he changes his behaviour (this does not mean losing any of his so-called passion or even his way of thinking) at least in the public the better off he is.
It is just mind-boggling that some people think you can act in any way you want. You can't. Sometimes you just have to do unpleasant things like play a quick game of SC2 in front of a crowd. It may not feel nice at the moment but if you don't and you step on people's toes then don't be surprised if there are consequences (no, I don't think GOM's decision was optimal).
By the way, there are murderers who just murder because of the sudden difference in temperament. Sometimes, it's not very controllable, but its normal.
I know this to be true, because I have a disorder too, but I'm perfectly fine most of the time.
On December 15 2011 10:27 Parcelleus wrote: SC2 just got worse cos of this pathetic display of player bashing cos he is himself.
Lost alot of respect for the sc2 'scene'.
The people trying to run Naniwa's life are even worse. How dare he be himself ? PLease.
Nobody is trying to ruin Naninwa's life except himself. If he doesn't conform to some of the rules of the big world such as that you show respect to others you'll run into trouble sooner or later. That sooner or later is now for Naniwa. He can either learn from this or he can continue on his path and keep shooting his own leg. Looking at the apology he is taking this the right way. It is nice of course that we have good fairy godmothers such as yourself to nurture him and to tell him that he can act any way he wants and it's okay. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that and the sooner he changes his behaviour (this does not mean losing any of his so-called passion or even his way of thinking) at least in the public the better off he is.
It is just mind-boggling that some people think you can act in any way you want. You can't. Sometimes you just have to do unpleasant things like play a quick game of SC2 in front of a crowd. It may not feel nice at the moment but if you don't and you step on people's toes then don't be surprised if there are consequences (no, I don't think GOM's decision was optimal).
I said run not ruin.
It's not upto YOU to make decision for other ppl. They do it themselves just fine.
I like Naniwa's and Quantic's professional and honest approach to this matter. I hope this will have no further negative follow ups and will in the end improve overall E-Sports culture.
Thumbs up for Naniwa's apology, now that's called being professional. Now if only his rabid immature fans that wouldn't stop flaming GOM can actually grow up as well and actually understand what being a professional means. And yes I'm a Naniwa fan too, but I actually get the implication of what he did and why GOM had to do something. Maybe he can get his spot back with this apology.
Pretty good statement from NaNi, and Quantic seems to be handling things well.
One of the things I find so interesting about NaNiwa's personality is that he rarely does anything explicitly BM. It always seems more of a case of him just not... knowing how to handle social situations. Which is bad enough, but then when you get thrust into a culture that is HIGHLY concerned with manners and social practices... it's a recipe for disaster.
I often wonder if NaNiwa doesn't have asbergers or some sort of mild autism. I hate to speculate, but that's what it reminds me of. People I've met with such conditions are never really intentionally rude or anything, they just sort of don't GET how certain social situations are supposed to be handled, which usually results in others just wondering wtf they're thinking...
This just sucks so much for Naniwa on a billion different levels. I hope the dude gets some inspiration out of all of this and comes back even stronger in the next few months. His work can not afford to go unappreciated.
On December 15 2011 10:27 Parcelleus wrote: SC2 just got worse cos of this pathetic display of player bashing cos he is himself.
Lost alot of respect for the sc2 'scene'.
The people trying to run Naniwa's life are even worse. How dare he be himself ? PLease.
Nobody is trying to ruin Naninwa's life except himself. If he doesn't conform to some of the rules of the big world such as that you show respect to others you'll run into trouble sooner or later. That sooner or later is now for Naniwa. He can either learn from this or he can continue on his path and keep shooting his own leg. Looking at the apology he is taking this the right way. It is nice of course that we have good fairy godmothers such as yourself to nurture him and to tell him that he can act any way he wants and it's okay. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that and the sooner he changes his behaviour (this does not mean losing any of his so-called passion or even his way of thinking) at least in the public the better off he is.
It is just mind-boggling that some people think you can act in any way you want. You can't. Sometimes you just have to do unpleasant things like play a quick game of SC2 in front of a crowd. It may not feel nice at the moment but if you don't and you step on people's toes then don't be surprised if there are consequences (no, I don't think GOM's decision was optimal).
I said run not ruin.
It's not upto YOU to make decision for other ppl. They do it themselves just fine.
Unless you work for someone or have agreed to provide a service and then don't do it. Then you face repercussions because you're no longer representing just yourself (a.k.a. 99% of us who work). How does this not make sense? You can't just go around being a dick and then say "stop treading on me! I'm just being myself." That's not how it works in the real world. I hate to sound like "that guy" but seriously -- actions have consequences! They really do. And Naniwa knows it now. And I predict we won't be seeing as much dickery from him in the future.
On December 15 2011 10:41 coverpunch wrote: I like this statement. Naniwa had a bad day and did something dumb. He's learned from it.
This isn't GOM's fault. I don't think anyone could imagine a scenario in the Blizzard Cup where two players would face each other with 0-3 records.
True to some extent, but anyone who designs a tournament either knows the possibility exists and considers it unimportant beforehand or decides that only meaningfull games would be play (AoL style, granted the chances of similar situations happening there was much higher since they had only 2 players moving up and 3 falling instead of the other way around).
The part where i blame Gom is that their producer running around there should have either made a decision to sack the game on the spot, or stressed to the players how hyped each of these games had been so they should give their best. The reason why he (or she) didn't do that, is that for a Korean it's unthinkable to not give at least a decent effort when Honor or Image is on the line. I don't think Nestea was planning to use his 100% secret prepared builds on this match, but let's be honest every progamer has at least a standard FE into some kind of timing attack build in their arsenal, thats the level they expected to be "standard" in such a situation.
For a long time, I never really played this game for anyone else other than myself. Now, I realize that it involves so much more than that. I’m not alone playing from my home anymore; there are so many people watching my every game, and wanting to see me perform at my best. I don’t just play for myself anymore, but for all the fans of StarCraft 2 and eSports. Clearly, being a pro-gamer involves a lot more than I initially thought.
I am really happy that NaNiWa starts to understand what professionalism means. Keep it up NaNiWa, you are on the right track
I hate to be a "that guy" but i really don't think that naniwa said any of it. HOWEVER i am glad that Quantic understands the mistake he made and are saying sorry for what naniwa did and I hope naniwa understands what he did also. This is a step in the right direction and I am glad to see it. GL to naniwa the Protoss HOPE and to Quantic gaming.
*I am not trying to be a dick, however we know that naniwa's English is not as good as the statement is. But I just hope they wrote it and he looked over it and said thats exactly how I feel. So if thats the case then forget what I posted and gg. hehe *
On December 15 2011 10:41 coverpunch wrote: I like this statement. Naniwa had a bad day and did something dumb. He's learned from it.
This isn't GOM's fault. I don't think anyone could imagine a scenario in the Blizzard Cup where two players would face each other with 0-3 records.
True to some extent, but anyone who designs a tournament either knows the possibility exists and considers it unimportant beforehand or decides that only meaningfull games would be play (AoL style, granted the chances of similar situations happening there was much higher since they had only 2 players moving up and 3 falling instead of the other way around).
The part where i blame Gom is that their producer running around there should have either made a decision to sack the game on the spot, or stressed to the players how hyped each of these games had been so they should give their best. The reason why he (or she) didn't do that, is that for a Korean it's unthinkable to not give at least a decent effort when Honor or Image is on the line. I don't think Nestea was planning to use his 100% secret prepared builds on this match, but let's be honest every progamer has at least a standard FE into some kind of timing attack build in their arsenal, thats the level they expected to be "standard" in such a situation.
Can you propose a different tournament format other than an elimination tournament that does this?
All Sports/Games that use round robin/group stages have this problem, and the players don't forfeit/not show up to their games.
Fifa World Cup has group stages where you can be 100% eliminated yet you still play. Most soccer/football/nba/baseball leagues have moments in the late season where you are 100% in the playoffs/not being relegated where games pretty much don't matter. Yet these games are still played.
If you can propose a magical solution which fixes this issue for all these sports, go ahead.
So bending over and saying what is expected of you instead of what you really think is the kind of professionalism we are getting here. A great day for professionalism, a sad day for gaming imo.
Glad he's realizing that being a progamer isn't just playing games. It's about professionalism and you need to maintain a certain standard - You need to respect the game and the players. When you throw games, it's spitting in the face of your opponent, the tournament, the organizers, but most importantly, the game itself.
On December 15 2011 10:27 Parcelleus wrote: SC2 just got worse cos of this pathetic display of player bashing cos he is himself.
Lost alot of respect for the sc2 'scene'.
The people trying to run Naniwa's life are even worse. How dare he be himself ? PLease.
Nobody is trying to ruin Naninwa's life except himself. If he doesn't conform to some of the rules of the big world such as that you show respect to others you'll run into trouble sooner or later. That sooner or later is now for Naniwa. He can either learn from this or he can continue on his path and keep shooting his own leg. Looking at the apology he is taking this the right way. It is nice of course that we have good fairy godmothers such as yourself to nurture him and to tell him that he can act any way he wants and it's okay. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that and the sooner he changes his behaviour (this does not mean losing any of his so-called passion or even his way of thinking) at least in the public the better off he is.
It is just mind-boggling that some people think you can act in any way you want. You can't. Sometimes you just have to do unpleasant things like play a quick game of SC2 in front of a crowd. It may not feel nice at the moment but if you don't and you step on people's toes then don't be surprised if there are consequences (no, I don't think GOM's decision was optimal).
I said run not ruin.
It's not upto YOU to make decision for other ppl. They do it themselves just fine.
Unless you work for someone or have agreed to provide a service and then don't do it. Then you face repercussions because you're no longer representing just yourself (a.k.a. 99% of us who work). How does this not make sense? You can't just go around being a dick and then say "stop treading on me! I'm just being myself." That's not how it works in the real world. I hate to sound like "that guy" but seriously -- actions have consequences! They really do. And Naniwa knows it now. And I predict we won't be seeing as much dickery from him in the future.
Naniwa did provide his service: to play GSL games that matter. In the games that mattered he gave it all. And just like other GSL players in the past who tanked or 'didnt give their best' in games that "didnt matter' , yet Naniwa is banned ?
I hate to be 'that guy', but GOMTV's actions has consequences.
On December 15 2011 10:41 coverpunch wrote: I like this statement. Naniwa had a bad day and did something dumb. He's learned from it.
This isn't GOM's fault. I don't think anyone could imagine a scenario in the Blizzard Cup where two players would face each other with 0-3 records.
True to some extent, but anyone who designs a tournament either knows the possibility exists and considers it unimportant beforehand or decides that only meaningfull games would be play (AoL style, granted the chances of similar situations happening there was much higher since they had only 2 players moving up and 3 falling instead of the other way around).
The part where i blame Gom is that their producer running around there should have either made a decision to sack the game on the spot, or stressed to the players how hyped each of these games had been so they should give their best. The reason why he (or she) didn't do that, is that for a Korean it's unthinkable to not give at least a decent effort when Honor or Image is on the line. I don't think Nestea was planning to use his 100% secret prepared builds on this match, but let's be honest every progamer has at least a standard FE into some kind of timing attack build in their arsenal, thats the level they expected to be "standard" in such a situation.
Can you propose a different tournament format other than an elimination tournament that does this?
All Sports/Games that use round robin/group stages have this problem, and the players don't forfeit/not show up to their games.
Fifa World Cup has group stages where you can be 100% eliminated yet you still play. Most soccer/football/nba/baseball leagues have moments in the late season where you are 100% in the playoffs/not being relegated where games pretty much don't matter. Yet these games are still played.
If you can propose a magical solution which fixes this issue for all these sports, go ahead.
Its actually considered a problem in the NFL due to teams essentially pulling all their important regular starters when games dont matter at the end of the season. Every year this discussion comes back as to whether or not the teams have more of an obligation to deliver the highetst level of competition in games that essentially dont matter, or to do whatever they judge best to maximize the chances of success in the playoffs, where the games actually do matter.
On December 15 2011 10:41 coverpunch wrote: I like this statement. Naniwa had a bad day and did something dumb. He's learned from it.
This isn't GOM's fault. I don't think anyone could imagine a scenario in the Blizzard Cup where two players would face each other with 0-3 records.
True to some extent, but anyone who designs a tournament either knows the possibility exists and considers it unimportant beforehand or decides that only meaningfull games would be play (AoL style, granted the chances of similar situations happening there was much higher since they had only 2 players moving up and 3 falling instead of the other way around).
The part where i blame Gom is that their producer running around there should have either made a decision to sack the game on the spot, or stressed to the players how hyped each of these games had been so they should give their best. The reason why he (or she) didn't do that, is that for a Korean it's unthinkable to not give at least a decent effort when Honor or Image is on the line. I don't think Nestea was planning to use his 100% secret prepared builds on this match, but let's be honest every progamer has at least a standard FE into some kind of timing attack build in their arsenal, thats the level they expected to be "standard" in such a situation.
Can you propose a different tournament format other than an elimination tournament that does this?
All Sports/Games that use round robin/group stages have this problem, and the players don't forfeit/not show up to their games.
Fifa World Cup has group stages where you can be 100% eliminated yet you still play. Most soccer/football/nba/baseball leagues have moments in the late season where you are 100% in the playoffs/not being relegated where games pretty much don't matter. Yet these games are still played.
If you can propose a magical solution which fixes this issue for all these sports, go ahead.
I can't. As i said it happens and tournaments usually stress in their rules that every game has to be played (Do you want to imagine the fines / sanctions Fifa would put on a country if they didn't show up?). That is what i meant with "knows the possibility exists" and considers it unimportant. They play and broadcast the games anyway, even if the teams won't play more than 80%, because they have the rules fixed that the games must be played. Gom did not do that, because this scenario was unconceivable for them. That is how this entire mess happened as i said above.
And yes i know of two sports where they "skip" unnecessary group games, college football in austria is one of them. Once the playoff spots are fixed most teams forfeit and it is widely accepted, but on the other hand none of these games would be on TV anyway. Hell i'm not even sure if the winner of the league is a 30 second mention in any sports show.
Snooker is also an example where players "forfeit" group games without punishment once they are done, but it is usually agreed beforehand (as it was done with the Arena of Legends) that such games would not be played.
On December 15 2011 11:00 diehilde wrote: So bending over and saying what is expected of you instead of what you really think is the kind of professionalism we are getting here. A great day for professionalism, a sad day for gaming imo.
posts like this make me question our world...
Since when has "saying what you really think" ever been considerd professional in any context? It might be honest, but it seldom is professional. No salesperson in the world will ever tell you what they think. No reporter will ever ask a politician if he is fucking serious even if they probably should. Why is that? Because we as a society have certain norms we consider professional behaviour and blunt honesty (which is a nicer phrasing of "tactless" or "unfriendly" in many cases) is not a part of it in many jobs.
Quantic are the only ones who emerged from this looking good. Excellent response, this is what I like to see from teams - keeping punishment, if their is/was any from the public eye, and remaining loyal to their players while also apologizing for their actions. You have made a fan.
On December 15 2011 09:58 bobohobo wrote: While his apology is a good thing, I wouldn't be so quick to believe him. After so many records of his bad mannerism, I think we should all reserve our judgement until the next time a similar situation arises and see how he handles the situation. He does not deserve immediate forgiveness of any sort from anyone at the moment.
Why do you feel that you have any right to "forgive" him for anything? Who are you?
Who is he apologizing to? If he doesn't want forgiveness, why is he apologizing? I didn't make him apologize, he chose to apologize. I think you are confused here.
I'm not sure about this. For me personally I didn't need this kind of statement for different reasons, but I am very happy to see that Quantic actually stands up for their player.
I hope this doesn't mean that Nani will become boring, he has given me a lot of entertainment during the last year even though apparently some people have been "offended" by some of his behaviors.
Thanks to Quantic for supporting him and not overreacting like GOM.
Naniwa, i hope you can continue to grow. You're a pleasure to watch play, and one of the funniest motherfuckers ever (TL attack and KLS with Khaldor come to mind) so i hope you can work on the things that piss some people off and smooth those rough edges so people will stop focusing on the negatives and can just enjoy your play and humour like any other player.
People really need to stop with the shitty sports comparisons. They make no sense whatsoever, i'm blown away that people keep thinking that a football team is comparable to Naniwa's Bo1 vs NesTea.
Show match between Nestea and Naniwa as a proper apology? Least I think this should happen. Give the people what they were deprived of at the actual tournament.
On December 15 2011 10:27 Parcelleus wrote: SC2 just got worse cos of this pathetic display of player bashing cos he is himself.
Lost alot of respect for the sc2 'scene'.
The people trying to run Naniwa's life are even worse. How dare he be himself ? PLease.
Nobody is trying to ruin Naninwa's life except himself. If he doesn't conform to some of the rules of the big world such as that you show respect to others you'll run into trouble sooner or later. That sooner or later is now for Naniwa. He can either learn from this or he can continue on his path and keep shooting his own leg. Looking at the apology he is taking this the right way. It is nice of course that we have good fairy godmothers such as yourself to nurture him and to tell him that he can act any way he wants and it's okay. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that and the sooner he changes his behaviour (this does not mean losing any of his so-called passion or even his way of thinking) at least in the public the better off he is.
It is just mind-boggling that some people think you can act in any way you want. You can't. Sometimes you just have to do unpleasant things like play a quick game of SC2 in front of a crowd. It may not feel nice at the moment but if you don't and you step on people's toes then don't be surprised if there are consequences (no, I don't think GOM's decision was optimal).
I said run not ruin.
It's not upto YOU to make decision for other ppl. They do it themselves just fine.
Unless you work for someone or have agreed to provide a service and then don't do it. Then you face repercussions because you're no longer representing just yourself (a.k.a. 99% of us who work). How does this not make sense? You can't just go around being a dick and then say "stop treading on me! I'm just being myself." That's not how it works in the real world. I hate to sound like "that guy" but seriously -- actions have consequences! They really do. And Naniwa knows it now. And I predict we won't be seeing as much dickery from him in the future.
Naniwa did provide his service: to play GSL games that matter. In the games that mattered he gave it all. And just like other GSL players in the past who tanked or 'didnt give their best' in games that "didnt matter' , yet Naniwa is banned ?
I hate to be 'that guy', but GOMTV's actions has consequences.
Games matter to people outside of the players themselves. Choya got a ban, Naniwa is not banned and got off light comparatively. Why do some people try to drag this thing out needlessly.
I think the greatest overreaction is from the community: Naniwa doesn't deserve to be a pro-gamer! vs. Boycott Gom! People are talking as if Gom destroyed his career or something from the reactions. Sounds like Naniwa is able to come to an understanding with Gom. Let's move on...
On December 15 2011 11:00 diehilde wrote: So bending over and saying what is expected of you instead of what you really think is the kind of professionalism we are getting here. A great day for professionalism, a sad day for gaming imo.
posts like this make me question our world...
Since when has "saying what you really think" ever been considerd professional in any context? It might be honest, but it seldom is professional. No salesperson in the world will ever tell you what they think. No reporter will ever ask a politician if he is fucking serious even if they probably should. Why is that? Because we as a society have certain norms we consider professional behaviour and blunt honesty (which is a nicer phrasing of "tactless" or "unfriendly" in many cases) is not a part of it in many jobs.
Respect and Courtesy is far more likely.
This. I don't know why so many people think its awesome to speak your mind directly.
Hope these people go to any shops and have the sales person whos on a bad day shout at them. Then what are all you gonna do, are you gonna say "Good job for being yourself?". No you will be rightfully pissed as a customer. The salesperson should be professional and not let feelings get in the way of his/her job.
We have standards in life. I don't go around telling people they suck just because i think they do. I don't hurt people feelings just because i say whats on my mind. And i don't fuck up my job just because i don't feel like. I don't understand why so many people have no standards at all.
On December 15 2011 11:37 NEOtheONE wrote: Show match between Nestea and Naniwa as a proper apology? Least I think this should happen. Give the people what they were deprived of at the actual tournament.
if you were nestea would you want to give him the chance at a showmatch?
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
This guy is an idiot or a troll.
Naniwa, I personally accept your apology. It takes a lot of balls to apologize and I respect you for responding quickly and sincerely.
On December 15 2011 11:00 diehilde wrote: So bending over and saying what is expected of you instead of what you really think is the kind of professionalism we are getting here. A great day for professionalism, a sad day for gaming imo.
posts like this make me question our world...
Since when has "saying what you really think" ever been considerd professional in any context? It might be honest, but it seldom is professional. No salesperson in the world will ever tell you what they think. No reporter will ever ask a politician if he is fucking serious even if they probably should. Why is that? Because we as a society have certain norms we consider professional behaviour and blunt honesty (which is a nicer phrasing of "tactless" or "unfriendly" in many cases) is not a part of it in many jobs.
Respect and Courtesy is far more likely.
This. I don't know why so many people think its awesome to speak your mind directly.
Hope these people go to any shops and have the sales person whos on a bad day shout at them. Then what are all you gonna do, are you gonna say "Good job for being yourself?". No you will be rightfully pissed as a customer. The salesperson should be professional and not let feelings get in the way of his/her job.
We have standards in life. I don't go around telling people they suck just because i think they do. I don't hurt people feelings just because i say whats on my mind. And i don't fuck up my job just because i don't feel like. I don't understand why so many people have no standards at all.
This is true.
Lashing out or getting defensive is easy and the first thing that human nature dictates one to do. However, those who are truly admirable restrain themselves, professional or not, because that is the harder path to take.
Self-control is a great character trait, "bending over and taking it" ( which is a horrible way to put it) is just what you have to do as a professional, it's expected of you. Swallow your pride.
On December 15 2011 06:08 Govou wrote: How about a Naniwa vs Nestea show match at the end of Blizzard Cup?
Now that is an idea! Not only will it take away GOM's current 'no mercy' image surrounding the issue, it will do PR magic for all parties, being a show match and not a 'last place decider" match will make for great entertainment. Im only disappointed that GOM are taking actions that will prevent such awesome games from occuring in the near future, i guess we all have to wait until after April if we want any shot at seeing this match again. It's not at NaNi's expense at all, it's us (the viewers) losing out
On December 15 2011 11:00 diehilde wrote: So bending over and saying what is expected of you instead of what you really think is the kind of professionalism we are getting here. A great day for professionalism, a sad day for gaming imo.
posts like this make me question our world...
Since when has "saying what you really think" ever been considerd professional in any context? It might be honest, but it seldom is professional. No salesperson in the world will ever tell you what they think. No reporter will ever ask a politician if he is fucking serious even if they probably should. Why is that? Because we as a society have certain norms we consider professional behaviour and blunt honesty (which is a nicer phrasing of "tactless" or "unfriendly" in many cases) is not a part of it in many jobs.
Respect and Courtesy is far more likely.
This. I don't know why so many people think its awesome to speak your mind directly.
Hope these people go to any shops and have the sales person whos on a bad day shout at them. Then what are all you gonna do, are you gonna say "Good job for being yourself?". No you will be rightfully pissed as a customer. The salesperson should be professional and not let feelings get in the way of his/her job.
We have standards in life. I don't go around telling people they suck just because i think they do. I don't hurt people feelings just because i say whats on my mind. And i don't fuck up my job just because i don't feel like. I don't understand why so many people have no standards at all.
This is true.
Lashing out or getting defensive is easy and the first thing that human nature dictates one to do. However, those who are truly admirable restrain themselves, professional or not, because that is the harder path to take.
Self-control is a great character trait, "bending over and taking it" ( which is a horrible way to put it) is just what you have to do as a professional, it's expected of you. Swallow your pride.
Besides, pride can be quite tasty when salted with lovely lovely dollars. It's not like he was playing for free.
Personally, though, I think that one should play for pride. I like to think a real professional takes pride in everything they do. Being angry at the end of the day is fine, but against Nestea he had a chance to walk away with his head held high having beaten a still well respected player. 1-3 IS better than 0-4, and it's something to take with him into January.
I don't think it shows professional pride to only put in your effort when there's money on the line. In fact, that puts truth to the (mistranslated) accusation of 'amateur prize hunter'.
On December 15 2011 06:08 Govou wrote: How about a Naniwa vs Nestea show match at the end of Blizzard Cup?
Now that is an idea! Not only will it take away GOM's current 'no mercy' image surrounding the issue, it will do PR magic for all parties, being a show match and not a 'last place decider" match will make for great entertainment. Im only disappointed that GOM are taking actions that will prevent such awesome games from occuring in the near future, i guess we all have to wait until after April if we want any shot at seeing this match again. It's not at NaNi's expense at all, it's us (the viewers) losing out
Someone send Mr Chae this idea... I think this would amend (not fully of course) some of the burned bridges from this fiasco
I would love to see a proper Naniwa vs Nestea...Make it a bo7 too
i can now see what he did was actually a good thing, made him and gomtv realise how crucial it is to play like a professional for every televised match, its not really something that has been discussed at length, we are entering a new age of esports.
If this is what naniwa really learned, I would definitely become fan of him.
I mean honestly, I dont give a shit whether he act disrespectful on nestea or not. I mean MC does it alll the time, Bomber and Losira did it. Anybody can do it, u might get hatred but you should not be blamed for it. Sometime, it makes game entertaining. However, this is different matter. Anyhow, I guess case closed.
On December 15 2011 10:27 Parcelleus wrote: SC2 just got worse cos of this pathetic display of player bashing cos he is himself.
Lost alot of respect for the sc2 'scene'.
The people trying to run Naniwa's life are even worse. How dare he be himself ? PLease.
Nobody is trying to ruin Naninwa's life except himself. If he doesn't conform to some of the rules of the big world such as that you show respect to others you'll run into trouble sooner or later. That sooner or later is now for Naniwa. He can either learn from this or he can continue on his path and keep shooting his own leg. Looking at the apology he is taking this the right way. It is nice of course that we have good fairy godmothers such as yourself to nurture him and to tell him that he can act any way he wants and it's okay. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that and the sooner he changes his behaviour (this does not mean losing any of his so-called passion or even his way of thinking) at least in the public the better off he is.
It is just mind-boggling that some people think you can act in any way you want. You can't. Sometimes you just have to do unpleasant things like play a quick game of SC2 in front of a crowd. It may not feel nice at the moment but if you don't and you step on people's toes then don't be surprised if there are consequences (no, I don't think GOM's decision was optimal).
I said run not ruin.
It's not upto YOU to make decision for other ppl. They do it themselves just fine.
Unless you work for someone or have agreed to provide a service and then don't do it. Then you face repercussions because you're no longer representing just yourself (a.k.a. 99% of us who work). How does this not make sense? You can't just go around being a dick and then say "stop treading on me! I'm just being myself." That's not how it works in the real world. I hate to sound like "that guy" but seriously -- actions have consequences! They really do. And Naniwa knows it now. And I predict we won't be seeing as much dickery from him in the future.
Naniwa did provide his service: to play GSL games that matter. In the games that mattered he gave it all. And just like other GSL players in the past who tanked or 'didnt give their best' in games that "didnt matter' , yet Naniwa is banned ?
I hate to be 'that guy', but GOMTV's actions has consequences.
That's ridiculous. Naniwa is expected to play every game he's scheduled to play, regardless of its value. What GOM needs to do it put in place an option in future tournaments that if a game has no value in the context of the event then the refs can decide that the match is to be skipped.
now that he's being fake everyone will like him again lol....
honest:
game was meaningless and he was too tired, stressed and upset to play it out, community mad.
community:
'just 4 gate, pretend you're trying for me!!'
honest:
gives his explanation on why he did what he did.
community: still mad.
Phony:
gives full blown recantation and apology through his team's press release with major 'self realizations about esports' that not only seem completely out of his character but don't feel to have an once of truth behind them after shit storm gets to big'
community: well now that's a nice statement, we can move on now.
people are so weird, i feel like there should be a troll face somewhere in here.
.... lynch mob justice i guess.... Good on you naniwa for playing their game. Just a bunch of bullshit in the end. At least Nani can admit he makes mistakes, GOM and Mr Chea play everything off as though the world is fucked and they are the only sane ones.
On December 15 2011 12:38 crms wrote: now that he's being fake everyone will like him again lol....
honest:
game was meaningless and he was too tired, stressed and upset to play it out, community mad.
community:
'just 4 gate, pretend you're trying for me!!'
honest:
gives his explanation on why he did what he did.
community: still mad.
Phony:
gives full blown recantation and apology through his team's press release with major 'self realizations about esports' that not only seem completely out of his character but don't feel to have an once of truth behind them after shit storm gets to big'
community: well now that's a nice statement, we can move on now.
people are so weird, i feel like there should be a troll face somewhere in here.
what do you mean by game was meaningless lol people paid to say up late to watch his games and he shits on the viewers
at least naniwa became a better person through this. its ignorant naniwa fanboys who refuse to accept the truth who are making him look bad tbh
Yup, everyone here made my arguments. I'm pretty upset with Naniwa. I thought he would be more professional coming from a WC3 background iirc. He can't do anything but serve his consequences and work hard to get back to his previous status. I waited 3 days to finally watch his Nestea match and all I got were probes. Made me feel sick. And that guy on the front page who is saying this is just a game doesn't get what SC2 means to this community. Thanks for the apology Quantic, you don't ever deserve having a player disrepect your team name like that.
I grew up in the U.S. but sometimes I'm still shocked at the complete lack of standards prevalent in many "westerners". Naniwa's situation is not simply due to his "throwing a game", it's that he openly did it with blatant disrespect for any competitive spirit. Let me put it this way--a policeman cannot possibly catch every criminal in existence, but if a crime is being committed right before his eyes, he is obligated to respond to it. If Naniwa didn't want to try his hardest for the game he should have A. openly approached management about it, or B. not have let his refusal to apply effort show so clearly. Behaving like a petulant child was not a good idea. Regardless as to the sincerity of this apology, it's a good idea to learn from this mistake and move on rather than dwell on it.
I appreciate Naniwa's determination, but to those who would let his lack of professionalism slide because it's "not a big deal", all I can say is I'd probably never want to visit a business run with that kind of mentality. From restaurants to other services, letting the small things slide is what causes the environment to deteriorate. It's better to dish out small punishments for small infractions rather than let it escalate to larger scandals for which an organization is forced to apply much greater penalties.
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
idra ragequits and bad manners, but he would never pull the same stunts in GSL. He knows and respects Korean progaming
Say what you want about NaNi, he's always forthcoming with responses regarding incident's he's involved in (whether it was his idea or his team's), glad this is all coming to an end. NaNi will earn his Code S spot again and easily has the potential to go far in Code S.
Huge respect to both Quantic and Naniwa - Quantic for standing with their player despite the fact that he was a very recent signing, and Naniwa for the very mature and well-thought out response. The original play may have been inappropriate, but the fallout has been handled very professionally by both team and player. Big props.
Seems a bit late in the game for Naniwa to come to this realisation especially considering his statements on twitter and interviews after the incident occurred. I'm glad he apologised but it does not feel sincere at all just an attempt to try and save some of his tattered image
On December 15 2011 09:50 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: I'm glad MLB, NBA, NHL, and NFL teams don't try to forfeit games where both teams are unable to reach the playoffs. Huk's blame placed on GOM for supposedly poor tournament design is ridiculous in light of this. Look at how hard Matt Barkley and the rest of USC played this season even though they knew from game 1 that they couldn't play in a conference championship game or bowl game (for the uninitiated, see: http://lostangelesblog.wordpress.com/). That is how sports are to be played and life is to be lived.
This has absolutely nothing to do with any supposed cultural difference between Korea and NA / Europe. The OSL is the crown jewel of eSports, the shining example of how to make a computer game into an exciting cultural event. And just about every OSL round of 16 contains games between people who can't make the round of 8. I don't remember anyone throwing such games that badly. If a player did something that was suboptimal, they did something fun and creative for the fans, such as (I believe) Much trying to use Corsairs in PvT. Even though the Clippers are still not NBA Finals material with Blake Griffin, his enthusiasm and flashy dunks put more happy people in the seats.
The very first GOM event with Tasteless, the very first eSport event I ever watched, the GOM Star Invitational, had a group with both Nada and Boxer. Tasteless had been talking them up all tournament but by the time they faced off, they were both 0-2 and couldn't make the next round. They had no problem with showing up, getting in the booths, and putting on a great show. Imagine how much worse my first impression of eSports would have been, how much less seriously I would take it, had one of them blatantly lost on purpose. I might never have watched another tournament.
eSports is nascent; every day someone comes into contact with it the first time and for GOM TV and all of us who are trying to foster it, it is vital that we respect the virtues that keep its spirit alive. Losing a match on purpose, whether anyone bet on it or not, is unbecoming. Nobody on the other side of the planet wants to stay up until the wee hours of the morning to watch a sports show where at any time some player just might not feel like playing. That type of attitude is cancerous and NaNiWa already should have been on his best behavior given his team troubles, which makes his newest statement in response to his newest controversy too unreliable for GOM to keep him around for Code S.
The job of the eAthlete is to put their honest best effort into the contests. It doesn't matter if you are the supposed best actor in the world, if you talk like a robot on purpose and don't show up on set just because you think the movie sucks then you deserve to get fired.
But why this has to be standard ? Not all fans care for the fun pretend games. Not all players are good at pretending. Why cannot there be a diversity, why not let players that want to play for fans do that and those that do not likewise ? Do we really want a bunch of dishonest actors, it seems that majority (although not overwhelming majority) wants fake, but nicely looking facade. This is exactly the place where market forces would work great. Players that do not attract fans and sponsors would just not have them, there is no reason to force everyone into the same box. Point of the professional scene is in money, so let the market decide. And yes I support tournaments to just not invite players that they do not like, but in transparent manner and with the knowledge that it might bite them in the ass.
No game is a pretend game; that is the proper attitude. Especially not a game that is in booths, on a stage, in front of fans (some of them paying), and in front of real commentators, and with real sponsors. The point, though, is never money; money is means.
I am especially disappointed that Naniwa would throw a game against Nestea, with whom he has developed a special rivalry with recently. If he can't get excited about showing that, even at 0-3, he is still playing better than Nestea, than it seems Naniwa's motivations are far too narrow, as he has indicated in his statement. So, I hope he takes that to heart.
So you are imputing your personal preferences to everyone else. Not only personal, but biologically impossible ones. There will always be pretend games in such circumstances and there is no way to prevent it. The only thing you can do is force the players to hide the "fakeness" of the game by being better at pretending. But that just seems pointless. Yes, Naniwa will take to heart that next time he has to pretend and everything will be fine, because some fans just seem to love the lies and fake games. That is what irks me, people are supporting lies and deceit as proper professional conduct. It is true that in real professional sports lies and deceit are par for the course, does not mean it is a good thing or I have to support it and I won't by not watching GSL. Easy as that.
On December 15 2011 09:50 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: I'm glad MLB, NBA, NHL, and NFL teams don't try to forfeit games where both teams are unable to reach the playoffs. Huk's blame placed on GOM for supposedly poor tournament design is ridiculous in light of this. Look at how hard Matt Barkley and the rest of USC played this season even though they knew from game 1 that they couldn't play in a conference championship game or bowl game (for the uninitiated, see: http://lostangelesblog.wordpress.com/). That is how sports are to be played and life is to be lived.
This has absolutely nothing to do with any supposed cultural difference between Korea and NA / Europe. The OSL is the crown jewel of eSports, the shining example of how to make a computer game into an exciting cultural event. And just about every OSL round of 16 contains games between people who can't make the round of 8. I don't remember anyone throwing such games that badly. If a player did something that was suboptimal, they did something fun and creative for the fans, such as (I believe) Much trying to use Corsairs in PvT. Even though the Clippers are still not NBA Finals material with Blake Griffin, his enthusiasm and flashy dunks put more happy people in the seats.
The very first GOM event with Tasteless, the very first eSport event I ever watched, the GOM Star Invitational, had a group with both Nada and Boxer. Tasteless had been talking them up all tournament but by the time they faced off, they were both 0-2 and couldn't make the next round. They had no problem with showing up, getting in the booths, and putting on a great show. Imagine how much worse my first impression of eSports would have been, how much less seriously I would take it, had one of them blatantly lost on purpose. I might never have watched another tournament.
eSports is nascent; every day someone comes into contact with it the first time and for GOM TV and all of us who are trying to foster it, it is vital that we respect the virtues that keep its spirit alive. Losing a match on purpose, whether anyone bet on it or not, is unbecoming. Nobody on the other side of the planet wants to stay up until the wee hours of the morning to watch a sports show where at any time some player just might not feel like playing. That type of attitude is cancerous and NaNiWa already should have been on his best behavior given his team troubles, which makes his newest statement in response to his newest controversy too unreliable for GOM to keep him around for Code S.
The job of the eAthlete is to put their honest best effort into the contests. It doesn't matter if you are the supposed best actor in the world, if you talk like a robot on purpose and don't show up on set just because you think the movie sucks then you deserve to get fired.
But why this has to be standard ? Not all fans care for the fun pretend games. Not all players are good at pretending. Why cannot there be a diversity, why not let players that want to play for fans do that and those that do not likewise ? Do we really want a bunch of dishonest actors, it seems that majority (although not overwhelming majority) wants fake, but nicely looking facade. This is exactly the place where market forces would work great. Players that do not attract fans and sponsors would just not have them, there is no reason to force everyone into the same box. Point of the professional scene is in money, so let the market decide. And yes I support tournaments to just not invite players that they do not like, but in transparent manner and with the knowledge that it might bite them in the ass.
No game is a pretend game; that is the proper attitude. Especially not a game that is in booths, on a stage, in front of fans (some of them paying), and in front of real commentators, and with real sponsors. The point, though, is never money; money is means.
I am especially disappointed that Naniwa would throw a game against Nestea, with whom he has developed a special rivalry with recently. If he can't get excited about showing that, even at 0-3, he is still playing better than Nestea, than it seems Naniwa's motivations are far too narrow, as he has indicated in his statement. So, I hope he takes that to heart.
So you are imputing your personal preferences to everyone else. Not only personal, but biologically impossible ones. There will always be pretend games in such circumstances and there is no way to prevent it. The only thing you can do is force the players to hide the "fakeness" of the game by being better at pretending. But that just seems pointless. Yes, Naniwa will take to heart that next time he has to pretend and everything will be fine, because some fans just seem to love the lies and fake games. That is what irks me, people are supporting lies and deceit as proper professional conduct. It is true that in real professional sports lies and deceit are par for the course, does not mean it is a good thing or I have to support it and I won't by not watching GSL. Easy as that.
You really think everyone on every team pretends to try when they're out of playoff contention. Or maybe they try 'cause it's their job?
GJ nani. I really feel for you and I can totally empathize with what you've lost. My advice is just to jump into Code A (if they'll let you) and get into Code S the hard way, and then kick Nestea's ass. Nobody will ever talk shit on you again if you do this.
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
this is why koreans look down on foreigners. they spend years making it a nationally recognized sport and a way of life, and foreigners just treat it like a game that doesnt really matter.
On December 15 2011 12:38 crms wrote: now that he's being fake everyone will like him again lol....
honest:
game was meaningless and he was too tired, stressed and upset to play it out, community mad.
community:
'just 4 gate, pretend you're trying for me!!'
honest:
gives his explanation on why he did what he did.
community: still mad.
Phony:
gives full blown recantation and apology through his team's press release with major 'self realizations about esports' that not only seem completely out of his character but don't feel to have an once of truth behind them after shit storm gets to big'
community: well now that's a nice statement, we can move on now.
people are so weird, i feel like there should be a troll face somewhere in here.
This is how I feel about the whole thing. I mean I think everyone agrees he could have handled it better, but it's not exactly something we should be expecting apologies over...the entitlement mentality from the community is blowing my mind right about now.
On December 15 2011 12:38 crms wrote: now that he's being fake everyone will like him again lol....
honest:
game was meaningless and he was too tired, stressed and upset to play it out, community mad.
community:
'just 4 gate, pretend you're trying for me!!'
honest:
gives his explanation on why he did what he did.
community: still mad.
Phony:
gives full blown recantation and apology through his team's press release with major 'self realizations about esports' that not only seem completely out of his character but don't feel to have an once of truth behind them after shit storm gets to big'
community: well now that's a nice statement, we can move on now.
people are so weird, i feel like there should be a troll face somewhere in here.
This is how I feel about the whole thing. I mean I think everyone agrees he could have handled it better, but it's not exactly something wshould be expecting apologies over...the entitlement mentality from the community is blowing my mind right about now.
The self entitlement and disgusting bias. So many of the posts on the subject about how Naniwa's actions are worse than similar actions by other players due to arbitarily defined reasons. I wish he'd just 4 gated so all that would have happened is some people in the LR thread would have posted 'aww I guess he just didn't want to play out a meaningless game.' and I wouldn't feel like punching myself in the brain.
On December 15 2011 11:00 diehilde wrote: So bending over and saying what is expected of you instead of what you really think is the kind of professionalism we are getting here. A great day for professionalism, a sad day for gaming imo.
posts like this make me question our world...
Since when has "saying what you really think" ever been considerd professional in any context? It might be honest, but it seldom is professional. No salesperson in the world will ever tell you what they think. No reporter will ever ask a politician if he is fucking serious even if they probably should. Why is that? Because we as a society have certain norms we consider professional behaviour and blunt honesty (which is a nicer phrasing of "tactless" or "unfriendly" in many cases) is not a part of it in many jobs.
Respect and Courtesy is far more likely.
This. I don't know why so many people think its awesome to speak your mind directly.
Hope these people go to any shops and have the sales person whos on a bad day shout at them. Then what are all you gonna do, are you gonna say "Good job for being yourself?". No you will be rightfully pissed as a customer. The salesperson should be professional and not let feelings get in the way of his/her job.
We have standards in life. I don't go around telling people they suck just because i think they do. I don't hurt people feelings just because i say whats on my mind. And i don't fuck up my job just because i don't feel like. I don't understand why so many people have no standards at all.
Just because people do not have exactly the same standards as you does not mean they have no standards at all. Also your analogy is kind of bad. Salesperson is mostly not selling me something quality of which depends on his state of mind. Him being "fake" friendly has no bearing on the product I will get. In case of meaningless games that is not the case. It is biological impossibility that players will play their best in such circumstances (some might , most won't). Societal rules that go completely against biology of a normal human are mostly bad. This is a case of such rule.
To make your analogy work you would need to compare salesperson's behavior with Naniwa's behavior in interviews and other sales parts of his job. So what he did at MLG was wrong and he should have been punished for that. I would be first to support it. What he did in GSL was slightly impolite but otherwise case of bad tournament format and the rage and punishment case of bad societal rule and them forcing him to conform to it is just an example of hurtful excessive conformism of some Asian cultures (see suicide rates of South Korea). There is nothing good to be gained by faking/conforming in this case.
Good for Naniwa. Sounds like he realizes that given his popularity he's become a lot more than just a gamer, but an ambassador of the sport. Hope he continues to see success.
On December 15 2011 12:38 crms wrote: now that he's being fake everyone will like him again lol....
honest:
game was meaningless and he was too tired, stressed and upset to play it out, community mad.
community:
'just 4 gate, pretend you're trying for me!!'
honest:
gives his explanation on why he did what he did.
community: still mad.
Phony:
gives full blown recantation and apology through his team's press release with major 'self realizations about esports' that not only seem completely out of his character but don't feel to have an once of truth behind them after shit storm gets to big'
community: well now that's a nice statement, we can move on now.
people are so weird, i feel like there should be a troll face somewhere in here.
Sometimes swallowing your pride is all people expect. How could he honestly offer reparations?
Being a grownup is admitting you were wrong, even if you don't believe it.
On December 15 2011 09:50 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: I'm glad MLB, NBA, NHL, and NFL teams don't try to forfeit games where both teams are unable to reach the playoffs. Huk's blame placed on GOM for supposedly poor tournament design is ridiculous in light of this. Look at how hard Matt Barkley and the rest of USC played this season even though they knew from game 1 that they couldn't play in a conference championship game or bowl game (for the uninitiated, see: http://lostangelesblog.wordpress.com/). That is how sports are to be played and life is to be lived.
This has absolutely nothing to do with any supposed cultural difference between Korea and NA / Europe. The OSL is the crown jewel of eSports, the shining example of how to make a computer game into an exciting cultural event. And just about every OSL round of 16 contains games between people who can't make the round of 8. I don't remember anyone throwing such games that badly. If a player did something that was suboptimal, they did something fun and creative for the fans, such as (I believe) Much trying to use Corsairs in PvT. Even though the Clippers are still not NBA Finals material with Blake Griffin, his enthusiasm and flashy dunks put more happy people in the seats.
The very first GOM event with Tasteless, the very first eSport event I ever watched, the GOM Star Invitational, had a group with both Nada and Boxer. Tasteless had been talking them up all tournament but by the time they faced off, they were both 0-2 and couldn't make the next round. They had no problem with showing up, getting in the booths, and putting on a great show. Imagine how much worse my first impression of eSports would have been, how much less seriously I would take it, had one of them blatantly lost on purpose. I might never have watched another tournament.
eSports is nascent; every day someone comes into contact with it the first time and for GOM TV and all of us who are trying to foster it, it is vital that we respect the virtues that keep its spirit alive. Losing a match on purpose, whether anyone bet on it or not, is unbecoming. Nobody on the other side of the planet wants to stay up until the wee hours of the morning to watch a sports show where at any time some player just might not feel like playing. That type of attitude is cancerous and NaNiWa already should have been on his best behavior given his team troubles, which makes his newest statement in response to his newest controversy too unreliable for GOM to keep him around for Code S.
The job of the eAthlete is to put their honest best effort into the contests. It doesn't matter if you are the supposed best actor in the world, if you talk like a robot on purpose and don't show up on set just because you think the movie sucks then you deserve to get fired.
But why this has to be standard ? Not all fans care for the fun pretend games. Not all players are good at pretending. Why cannot there be a diversity, why not let players that want to play for fans do that and those that do not likewise ? Do we really want a bunch of dishonest actors, it seems that majority (although not overwhelming majority) wants fake, but nicely looking facade. This is exactly the place where market forces would work great. Players that do not attract fans and sponsors would just not have them, there is no reason to force everyone into the same box. Point of the professional scene is in money, so let the market decide. And yes I support tournaments to just not invite players that they do not like, but in transparent manner and with the knowledge that it might bite them in the ass.
No game is a pretend game; that is the proper attitude. Especially not a game that is in booths, on a stage, in front of fans (some of them paying), and in front of real commentators, and with real sponsors. The point, though, is never money; money is means.
I am especially disappointed that Naniwa would throw a game against Nestea, with whom he has developed a special rivalry with recently. If he can't get excited about showing that, even at 0-3, he is still playing better than Nestea, than it seems Naniwa's motivations are far too narrow, as he has indicated in his statement. So, I hope he takes that to heart.
So you are imputing your personal preferences to everyone else. Not only personal, but biologically impossible ones. There will always be pretend games in such circumstances and there is no way to prevent it. The only thing you can do is force the players to hide the "fakeness" of the game by being better at pretending. But that just seems pointless. Yes, Naniwa will take to heart that next time he has to pretend and everything will be fine, because some fans just seem to love the lies and fake games. That is what irks me, people are supporting lies and deceit as proper professional conduct. It is true that in real professional sports lies and deceit are par for the course, does not mean it is a good thing or I have to support it and I won't by not watching GSL. Easy as that.
You really think everyone on every team pretends to try when they're out of playoff contention. Or maybe they try 'cause it's their job?
Not necessarily pretend as until now there was no reason to pretend too much and players just threw games in more or less creative fashion. Now with this precedent the pretending will start, but they definitely won't try even close to what they could. At least most players in most such matches.
awesome... this is all i really ever wanted from him... people make mistakes and thats fine... but men take accountability for them... i appreciate your apology and i will be rooting for you once again
On December 15 2011 12:38 crms wrote: now that he's being fake everyone will like him again lol....
honest:
game was meaningless and he was too tired, stressed and upset to play it out, community mad.
community:
'just 4 gate, pretend you're trying for me!!'
honest:
gives his explanation on why he did what he did.
community: still mad.
Phony:
gives full blown recantation and apology through his team's press release with major 'self realizations about esports' that not only seem completely out of his character but don't feel to have an once of truth behind them after shit storm gets to big'
community: well now that's a nice statement, we can move on now.
people are so weird, i feel like there should be a troll face somewhere in here.
Sometimes swallowing your pride is all people expect. How could he honestly offer reparations?
Being a grownup is admitting you were wrong, even if you don't believe it.
It's hypocrisy. I will never understand why it works this way.
On December 15 2011 12:38 crms wrote: now that he's being fake everyone will like him again lol....
honest:
game was meaningless and he was too tired, stressed and upset to play it out, community mad.
community:
'just 4 gate, pretend you're trying for me!!'
honest:
gives his explanation on why he did what he did.
community: still mad.
Phony:
gives full blown recantation and apology through his team's press release with major 'self realizations about esports' that not only seem completely out of his character but don't feel to have an once of truth behind them after shit storm gets to big'
community: well now that's a nice statement, we can move on now.
people are so weird, i feel like there should be a troll face somewhere in here.
Sometimes swallowing your pride is all people expect. How could he honestly offer reparations?
Being a grownup is admitting you were wrong, even if you don't believe it.
That is PRECISELY what not being a grown up is - chucking out sincerity in place for servile behavoir. That's why to an unattached observer the way this community has reacted is a joke.
Unfortunately that's how a lot of the world works. We like servile behavior in this society. Oftentimes, we take it over honesty.
Do I agree with this? No. But there's nothing to be done about it. It's really irritating and frustrating to those people who are typically blunt and honest with their words, but they have to learn to basically shut up or temper what they're saying. If you think your new boss is an incompetent asshole, and he asks you how you think he's doing, obviously you're going to tell him he's doing fine, especially at the rick of getting fired. Meh.
Great. I think now we should all be able to put this behind us and move on. I hope Naniwa will be welcome to play in the GSL again in the future, and will not misbehave like this again.
On December 15 2011 12:38 crms wrote: now that he's being fake everyone will like him again lol....
honest:
game was meaningless and he was too tired, stressed and upset to play it out, community mad.
community:
'just 4 gate, pretend you're trying for me!!'
honest:
gives his explanation on why he did what he did.
community: still mad.
Phony:
gives full blown recantation and apology through his team's press release with major 'self realizations about esports' that not only seem completely out of his character but don't feel to have an once of truth behind them after shit storm gets to big'
community: well now that's a nice statement, we can move on now.
people are so weird, i feel like there should be a troll face somewhere in here.
Sometimes swallowing your pride is all people expect. How could he honestly offer reparations?
Being a grownup is admitting you were wrong, even if you don't believe it.
It's hypocrisy. I will never understand why it works this way.
More precise saying is that being "grownup" is knowing when you can be honest and when you have to lie or at least not say anything. You basically never have to say things that are completely contrary to what you think, but it is often required to bend the truth somewhat. Nothing wrong with that as in general it helps society function better, but up to a point and I think the whole Naniwa disrespecting people is far behind the necessary line as it is based on deformed version of "respect".
On December 15 2011 12:38 crms wrote: now that he's being fake everyone will like him again lol....
honest:
game was meaningless and he was too tired, stressed and upset to play it out, community mad.
community:
'just 4 gate, pretend you're trying for me!!'
honest:
gives his explanation on why he did what he did.
community: still mad.
Phony:
gives full blown recantation and apology through his team's press release with major 'self realizations about esports' that not only seem completely out of his character but don't feel to have an once of truth behind them after shit storm gets to big'
community: well now that's a nice statement, we can move on now.
people are so weird, i feel like there should be a troll face somewhere in here.
Sometimes swallowing your pride is all people expect. How could he honestly offer reparations?
Being a grownup is admitting you were wrong, even if you don't believe it.
That is PRECISELY what not being a grown up is - chucking out sincerity in place for servile behavoir. That's why to an unattached observer the way this community has reacted is a joke.
Unfortunately that's how a lot of the world works. We like servile behavior in this society. Oftentimes, we take it over honesty.
Do I agree with this? No. But there's nothing to be done about it. It's really irritating and frustrating to those people who are typically blunt and honest with their words, but they have to learn to basically shut up or temper what they're saying. If you think your new boss is an incompetent asshole, and he asks you how you think he's doing, obviously you're going to tell him he's doing fine, especially at the rick of getting fired. Meh.
This:"Unfortunately that's how a lot of the world works". Agree with you. My point of view: Naniwa did what the team requested, what a pro should have done, as in appolagize. I personally dont agree with this. The real nani is the one on the interview after the game - he is honest, put passion in this game, he is not fake! and that is why i liked him. If GOM and the surroundings "forced" him to apologize then well... this is how the world is working.. and i must agree with hes decision.. if you want to survive you need to make decisions even if you dont like or agree with them.
Thank you for the apology, Naniwa. Regardless of the feeling behind it, everyone must admit that had we not gotten an apology, we could never begin to forgive nor regain respect for Naniwa. Since we are human beings, we will not assume he is lying, we will assume he is being sincere. Naniwa disgusts me. And yet I will assume he is being sincere, not because I am naive, but because this is the only possible way to give him another chance.
I posted this on another thread, but I believe it bears repeating here: Something I sense a lot across these forums-and I see it creeping in here as well-which I would like to take this opportunity to caution against, is an "us" vs. "them" attitude in regards to so-called "foreigner" and Korean events/players/attitudes/culture/teams/companies. This isn't a "we're non-Korean and they are" site, this is an international site. Everybody gets worked up, and everybody has biases that take time to work through. This community and Starcraft in general provide amazing opportunities for lots of people to open themselves up to new cultures, especially (as history would have it) that of Korea. I'm just saying: don't make it an us vs. them issue, please (on whatever side of the Korean border you're on). There's a bigger "we" here--the starcraft lovers. Also, please remember that "the Koreans" are not far away. Many Korean people are members of this community. Also, "the Koreans" are not one indivisible body. There are many Korean individuals, teams, progamers, and organizations that are distinct and have a distinct perspective.
On December 15 2011 16:42 pampelmus wrote: Well anyone who thinks this is straight from Naniwa should think again.
This is a classic example of a Standard-Public-Relations-Note.
My thoughts too. Guess it "had to" be done though, but the tone of the message is soooooo far from how Naniwa comments on other stuff. Even his interview post-match was far from this. And him being sorry for seemingly everyone in the world..... ? Nah, its just too obvious.
Though, one can still hope Naniwa learned something from this.
Screw these formal apologies. Naniwa is not a prime minister and Blizz cup is not a G20 meeting. That last game was damn meaningless because, regardless of what everyone says, it led to nothing for both players and at best it would be just another ladder game like. I enjoyed that drone rush because it pointed out a flaw in Blizzard cup tournament format. Hopefully, Mr. Chae will make his conclusions out of this incident as apparently Naniwa has.
ermm... so he did a complete 360 on his intial statement/interview after 1 day but now is apologetic after his code S seed get revoked...
man, people should stop being so guile-able. if he was genuinely sorry, its because he lost his seed not because any other reasons like disappointing his fans... He has a bad attitude as a person, teams don't just transfer you after just a single week...
he doesn't respect anyone but himself, and when people complain, he just disregard them as haters.
"I had something very special prepared just for him, and I’m sure he had something just as special planned himself." Then why didn't you bloody show us!?
We understand that GOMTV’s decision to revoke NaNiwa’s Code S spot for the next GSL season was not one that was made lightly. He has decided against participating in the coming GSL season as a statement of his sincere regret and in the hopes that he may have a future opportunity to compete in GSL against the world’s best.
I don't exactly understand this. So they revoked his Code S spot and he decided against participating in the next GSL Season? Does it mean that he will participate in neither Up/Down / Code A or are they saying that both NaNiwa and GOM decided against him playing in Code S next season?
I think it just means Nani will refrain from even trying to qualify for Code A.
Well, from what we've seen, he can't win a series in Code A. He's probably hoping this apology lets him skip that nightmare of a tournament -- for him at least -- and go straight back into Code S like he did before he threw it all away.
On December 15 2011 17:38 Reasonable wrote: Screw these formal apologies. Naniwa is not a prime minister and Blizz cup is not a G20 meeting. That last game was damn meaningless because, regardless of what everyone says, it led to nothing for both players and at best it would be just another ladder game like. I enjoyed that drone rush because it pointed out a flaw in Blizzard cup tournament format. Hopefully, Mr. Chae will make his conclusions out of this incident as apparently Naniwa has.
So, let's say you have USA, Brazil, Germany, and England in Group A for the World Cup. USA opens 0-2 and stands no chance in qualifying for the next rounds. Do you really think they'd get away with throwing the last game? I mean, it's pretty damn meaningless. But you know what? These people are the best at what they do and they have this thing called pride. Apparently Naniwa doesn't.
Naniwa is now a great sc2 player and a man who is controlling his emotions, I can't wait to see how this mature attitude changes the way he represents himself later on in tournaments as well as in practice. I hope to see amazing things from him and best of luck to him and Quantic.
On December 15 2011 17:44 Neptuneajax wrote: "I had something very special prepared just for him, and I’m sure he had something just as special planned himself." Then why didn't you bloody show us!?
Wait, you can't be so ignorant. Or can you?
I must admit I was not a fan of Naniwa before, but now I am. Some upper comments are right on the topic that that is how the world works. Yes, you don't say to your boss that he is an asshole, that is true. But props to Naniwa for doing so.
If GOM had not revoked the seed, would this drama had happened? Lol, no. The only people that were offended are some koreans, because guess what? They are korean. Have you ever tried to learn korean? Took me so much time to accept that I have to speak politely even if the another person can speak in 반말 with me. But now I accept that some people value artificial things over honesty. Though your supposed not to judge a book by it's cover, that is how the world goes on. It's ok.
this is obviously a forced apology to appease emotionally-unstable korean tournament authority.
it shows that Naniwa is apologizing even for GOM's mistakes. He really didn't want that to happen. I think GOM has to apologize to Naniwa and to us the fans, the whole community, for acting like a kid.
maybe if they didn't make people who are already out of the running plan another useless match that doesn't have any weight at all, players wouldn't do stuff like this.
GomTV stretches things out needlessly so often. Who cares if both players are out, don't make them play another stupid game.
What are you even discussing here? Are you CEO of Quantic? They admitted Naniwa did something wrong and apologized for that. End of story. Whether you like it or not it still happened. I'm happy Quantic handled it this way, maybe Naniwa will actually think twice before he do something inappropriate next time. And it is not about korean community, but about community as one entity. Now at least we have precedence to use when similar situation occurs. And please, stop this 'hypocrisy' nonsense - you sound like a 10yo who don't ever want to apologize for anything, because he doesn't think he hurt someone.
So the real, honest Naniwa was punished and then his personality was put behind bars. This makes me sad, really. I was and am on Nanis side on this, even after this artificial "public relations statement".
On December 15 2011 06:11 dala wrote: Wow, in the past 24 hours NaNiwa has grown up!
lol of course thats so possible when hes known by such a huge community i would have said the same and these people wont change that much. just wait and see (again)
On December 15 2011 18:41 claash wrote: lol of course thats so possible when hes known by such a huge community i would have said the same and these people wont change that much. just wait and see (again)
You know, that´s exactly what I hope. Shy people (not a bad thing either) without character we have enough already.
For a long time, I never really played this game for anyone else other than myself. Now, I realize that it involves so much more than that. I’m not alone playing from my home anymore; there are so many people watching my every game, and wanting to see me perform at my best. I don’t just play for myself anymore, but for all the fans of StarCraft 2 and eSports. Clearly, being a pro-gamer involves a lot more than I initially thought.”
I hope you know what you said right there you are starting to change. If so great and I wish you the best of luck for the future!
Totally accepted. The most important thing is that everyone learns from this. It is unfortunate for Naniwa that he now has 1 less opportunity, but he'll surely get it later.
Naniwa acts like a child or at least seems to have the mindset of a child quite often. I don't really mind it nothing he has done bothers me, but for him it is like digging a hole you can't crawl out of. Dissing every Korean you manage to beat at a MLG, thanking ONLY his Swedish fans, and now this. Shooting yourself in the foot over and over again. I personally find it all quite amusing his awkwardness while attempting to diss Nestea after a game at MLG and raising his arms like a monkey got an actual lol from me. I also like seeing his eyes after every loss and seeing the anger. He is a true gamer. But because of that he shoots out quite a few chances to make money without actually winning tournaments. GL in the future Nani Code S and so on.
On December 15 2011 18:17 Elizar wrote: So the real, honest Naniwa was punished and then his personality was put behind bars. This makes me sad, really. I was and am on Nanis side on this, even after this artificial "public relations statement".
So if Naniwa was a racist and sprouted hate messages in the middle of the game, would it still be ok because he's honest?
Being honest is a good thing, being disrespectful isn't however.
Catering to the masses of self entilted douchebags that seem to hang on this forum, "I feel super offended you should aplogize to me" people are so full of themselves and they talk about respect yet have none. I don't see the need for this apology but its what people wanted I guess.
On December 15 2011 20:55 Letall wrote: Catering to the masses of self entilted douchebags that seem to hang on this forum, "I feel super offended you should aplogize to me" people are so full of themselves and they talk about respect yet have none. I don't see the need for this apology but its what people wanted I guess.
According to the poll that underwent here recently, a considerable amount of members, including myself, think that Naniwa didn't do anything wrong and obviously shouldn't apologize. Don't generalize everyone, as they are different, multicultural, if you will. Also another poll results suggested that it is, in fact, a cultural clash. In my cultural background, demanding apology is even more insulting than the wrongdoing itself. Who's the judge, right?
On December 15 2011 20:55 Letall wrote: Catering to the masses of self entilted douchebags that seem to hang on this forum, "I feel super offended you should aplogize to me" people are so full of themselves and they talk about respect yet have none. I don't see the need for this apology but its what people wanted I guess.
According to the poll that underwent here recently, a considerable amount of members, including myself, think that Naniwa didn't do anything wrong and obviously shouldn't apologize. Don't generalize everyone, as they are different, multicultural, if you will. Also another poll results suggested that it is, in fact, a cultural clash. In my cultural background, demanding apology is even more insulting than the wrongdoing itself. Who's the judge, right?
I never said that everyone was a certain way, masses =/= everyone
Korea does have the experiences when it comes to progaming so now the foreigners need to make their own mistakes to realize that they are playing for both themselves and the fans. Hopefully he will get a second chanse and learn alot from all this. Sweden fighting!
I am glad to see that he made a honest statement about the matter; hopefully, he will behave more conveniently in the future. He is a very good player, and losing him to bad manners would be greatly disappointing.
On December 15 2011 18:17 Elizar wrote: So the real, honest Naniwa was punished and then his personality was put behind bars. This makes me sad, really. I was and am on Nanis side on this, even after this artificial "public relations statement".
So if Naniwa was a racist and sprouted hate messages in the middle of the game, would it still be ok because he's honest?
Being honest is a good thing, being disrespectful isn't however.
On December 15 2011 20:55 Letall wrote: Catering to the masses of self entilted douchebags that seem to hang on this forum, "I feel super offended you should aplogize to me" people are so full of themselves and they talk about respect yet have none. I don't see the need for this apology but its what people wanted I guess.
that's pretty much how this apology sounds to me, exactly like your tone
like "wtf I didn't do anything wrong, but here, see, I apologize if it makes you happy"
On December 15 2011 12:38 crms wrote: now that he's being fake everyone will like him again lol....
honest:
game was meaningless and he was too tired, stressed and upset to play it out, community mad.
community:
'just 4 gate, pretend you're trying for me!!'
honest:
gives his explanation on why he did what he did.
community: still mad.
Phony:
gives full blown recantation and apology through his team's press release with major 'self realizations about esports' that not only seem completely out of his character but don't feel to have an once of truth behind them after shit storm gets to big'
community: well now that's a nice statement, we can move on now.
people are so weird, i feel like there should be a troll face somewhere in here.
From my point of view it was a pointless game since it didn't affect results that mattered (had one of the players been able to advance it would have, but that's a different situation). It was the tournments formats fault (had it been a pure show-match tournament/match it would have been a different situation, but then the players should be there to produce "fun" games not winning games).
Oh, and I agree:
On December 15 2011 12:38 crms wrote: now that he's being fake everyone will like him again lol....
honest:
game was meaningless and he was too tired, stressed and upset to play it out, community mad.
community:
'just 4 gate, pretend you're trying for me!!'
honest:
gives his explanation on why he did what he did.
community: still mad.
Phony:
gives full blown recantation and apology through his team's press release with major 'self realizations about esports' that not only seem completely out of his character but don't feel to have an once of truth behind them after shit storm gets to big'
community: well now that's a nice statement, we can move on now.
people are so weird, i feel like there should be a troll face somewhere in here.
It is so pointless when progamers (bw & sc2) execute pretend all-ins in pointless games when they essentially don't care... fix tournament formats instead.
We understand that GOMTV’s decision to revoke NaNiwa’s Code S spot for the next GSL season was not one that was made lightly. He has decided against participating in the coming GSL season as a statement of his sincere regret and in the hopes that he may have a future opportunity to compete in GSL against the world’s best.
I don't exactly understand this. So they revoked his Code S spot and he decided against participating in the next GSL Season? Does it mean that he will participate in neither Up/Down / Code A or are they saying that both NaNiwa and GOM decided against him playing in Code S next season?
I think it just means Nani will refrain from even trying to qualify for Code A.
Well, from what we've seen, he can't win a series in Code A. He's probably hoping this apology lets him skip that nightmare of a tournament -- for him at least -- and go straight back into Code S like he did before he threw it all away.
On December 15 2011 17:38 Reasonable wrote: Screw these formal apologies. Naniwa is not a prime minister and Blizz cup is not a G20 meeting. That last game was damn meaningless because, regardless of what everyone says, it led to nothing for both players and at best it would be just another ladder game like. I enjoyed that drone rush because it pointed out a flaw in Blizzard cup tournament format. Hopefully, Mr. Chae will make his conclusions out of this incident as apparently Naniwa has.
So, let's say you have USA, Brazil, Germany, and England in Group A for the World Cup. USA opens 0-2 and stands no chance in qualifying for the next rounds. Do you really think they'd get away with throwing the last game? I mean, it's pretty damn meaningless. But you know what? These people are the best at what they do and they have this thing called pride. Apparently Naniwa doesn't.
Bad example. The USA game wouldn't be meaningless, it would still have implications for which of the other three teams qualified. Think of the USA as "King Makers" in that kind of situation. This NaNiwa/NesTea game was absolutely meaningless and shouldn't have been played: It didn't have any implications for who qualified whatsoever.
If you're going to use an example, at least choose one that isn't silly.
I don't condone what NaNiwa did, but I think that the reaction has been overblown. Although I'd like to think that this new statement is sincere - because I think he will become a better player when he plays for more than just himself - I don't think that it is, which makes it a shame that people are eating it up. But if it gets the heat off his back for what I think wasn't that big a deal (although definitely not a good thing) then that's cool.
I ll give you an example that isnt silly. barcelona securing their 1st position of the league before the final match of the season playing against a random team like Getafe who have also secured 11th place of the league. there are 100000s of these "meaningless games" in football as well as in many other sport events. do they ever get cancelled? NO! does any player just sit and not play, or does one team just completely give up because they dont care? NO! it just doesnt happen. its not just about qualifying for the next round, its about respecting the fans and the opponent.
is it bad that i don't think that was naniwa's apology? Didn't naniwa himself say that the probe rush wasn't that big of a deal and that he just didn't feel like playing? I swear i remember reading that with the initial reaction and that he probably shouldn't have done it but do a 4 gate instead.
and, i really feel bad for QxG for getting dragged into this too.
edit @ moxi
would u complain about the system of naniwa had won a game previously and made the game not pointless? It's like saying, why bother to show any sports on tv in the latter months because they are pointless for 90% of the teams.
Good statement. I feel that whilst Naniwa handled the situation a little unprofessionally so did GOMTV, this punishment was far too harsh given the situation and I hope they reconsider as I personally have lost all interest in paying for their services.
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
Thank god the Koreans have a sense of pride in what they do.
Thank god we have things to take pride in other than StarCraft
Naniwa hasnt done anything wrong. he chooses how to play this game and if you dont like it well thast just too bad. this whole thing is ridiculous he played the game and violated no agreements.
Yep, I'm pretty satisfied with the statement and wish the best of luck to Quantic Gaming and Naniwa¹. I really can't see the decision for him to be removed from Code S to be revoked, but I hope that Idra's place wasn't the direct replacement, as IdrA as a player in game is more prone to straight-out abusive language and childish name calling (like to Ensnare in GSL way back, last year) and hasn't had that many great results recently as far as I can recall. Obviously, if he HAS achieved more than say, Sase, Stephano or anyone else that may have been viable options (I'm guessing they wanted another foreigner specifically, perhaps not though), then I can understand, but I didn't think that was the case. So long as Naniwa can get back into Code S through results or qualification through Code A/up&down matches/whatever the system allows these days, then it's not too bad. So long as koreans like Choya can learn to recognise that it wasn't only unprofessional or terrible bastard behaviour, whatever he thought and that it's also emotion coming into play.
Does anyone else think that if Naniwa had instead 6pooled Nestea (which would have been considered a legitimate strategy, even if executed Idra-style), failed miserably and then typed "fck u faggot being a popular drink is a useful talent toi have", the korean would have, and definitely should have, found it to be much worse? I hope so. People should consider what really is more disrespectful and whether the disrespect is really even intended. Gogo Naniwa (but don't do it again, of course @_@)!
¹ I was going to type 何はbefore then finding { Naniwa (former name for Osaka region) }
This is an aside, but
On December 16 2011 00:37 jspark703 wrote:NO! does any player just sit and not play, or does one team just completely give up because they dont care? NO! it just doesnt happen. its not just about qualifying for the next round, its about respecting the fans and the opponent.
No offence to you personally, but that examples is actually rubbish. I mean, the game goes on, they play it, but a lot of the time, the winning team will field a second or even third string side, it's quite a common practice and they'll usually take a lot of the game in a relaxed fashion, with a little more time-wasting passing (just for the sake of spending time rather than for setting up play). Particularly notable players will likely still be used if they particularly wish to, sometimes veteran players who are fan favourites but not used so often would come on. If it were Man Utd quite some years ago, someone like Ole Gunnar Solskjær would undoubtedly come on to see if he can get yet another 1-2 super sub goals. (<- Liverpool fan by the way) I understand what you're saying, but playing the game in a lax or less caring manner is quite common. Barcelona in such a situation would definitely give the game a good go, but on the other hand, they probably would also use numerous 2nd/3rd team choices too. That can affect the outcome of games, which could affect betting too.
On December 15 2011 18:17 Elizar wrote: So the real, honest Naniwa was punished and then his personality was put behind bars. This makes me sad, really. I was and am on Nanis side on this, even after this artificial "public relations statement".
So if Naniwa was a racist and sprouted hate messages in the middle of the game, would it still be ok because he's honest?
Being honest is a good thing, being disrespectful isn't however.
What if you eat kids for breakfast? So, you don´t do that? Is it disrespectful of me to imply you do that? YES! So you basically complain about things you do yourself.
Live with the "apology" of Nani, if this is necessary for your happiness. It is disrespectful to imply him being racist (and totally untrue whatsoever).
Anyway, read what Dao has to say about the whole incident. He is much better with words than me (and you) and I can´t deny what he´s saying.
GOmtv looks like a company run by kids. With their definition of professionalism, they basically call guys like Zinedine Zidane or Michael Schumacher unprofessional. NP This is so ridicoulous and blatantly pathetic, it just makes me wanna throw up.
To all the guys supporting gom: So you would also support a guy fouling in soccer to get both legs cut off for it? Because thats even a real forbidden thing to do, Naniwa didnt break any rules.
"I ll give you an example that isnt silly. barcelona securing their 1st position of the league before the final match of the season playing against a random team like Getafe who have also secured 11th place of the league. there are 100000s of these "meaningless games" in football as well as in many other sport events."
Nope no games in there are meaningless. Naniwa's, however, actually was almost meaningless. Thats just a bad unfitting example. Sorry. If you dont understand why, try to think about it please
"Nope Nani didnt get a Code S spot. You were all wrong. trolol"
I want an apology by Gomtv for their behaviour. Good thing I never gave them any money^^.
On December 16 2011 00:27 Boonbag wrote: lol you guys really don't realise how bad what he did is
these games are on T.V. - people invest money to run these shows !
Yeah that's the thing, why do they have this system if matches turn meaningless and players won't play their best?
Simple: A game between two professional gamers that is shown on TV is NEVER, EVER meaningless.
And has meaning according to whom? What is the standard. Stephano and Naniwa want tourney wins not TV spots. Who are you do tell them how to think about StarCraft? For them it's a tool not an altar.
Ah, by the way: Naniwa apologized, which is the right thing to do from a diplomatic standpoint (although I don´t think that was neccessary, I can accept that). However, did GomTV apologized for the twitter-message calling him an amateur? If that would be the case please tell me, so I do not make false assumptions.
On December 16 2011 01:49 Elizar wrote: Ah, by the way: Naniwa apologized, which is the right thing to do from a diplomatic standpoint (although I don´t think that was neccessary, I can accept that). However, did GomTV apologized for the twitter-message calling him an amateur? If that would be the case please tell me, so I do not make false assumptions.
If you mean the money hunter thing that was a mistranslation.
Which implies certain, rigid, and unbreakable standards.
What NaNiwa did violated the said standards.
In reality, many of us view SC2 as a simple entertainment, not to be compared with major league sports.
In Western culture, we accept individualism and even applaud it. But the Koreans are attempting to raise the bar higher, building up a true professional scene. Hence, NaNiwa's behavior was in violation of the Korean cause and deserved punishment to deter similar incidents.
On December 16 2011 00:27 Boonbag wrote: lol you guys really don't realise how bad what he did is
these games are on T.V. - people invest money to run these shows !
Yeah that's the thing, why do they have this system if matches turn meaningless and players won't play their best?
Simple: A game between two professional gamers that is shown on TV is NEVER, EVER meaningless.
And has meaning according to whom? What is the standard. Stephano and Naniwa want tourney wins not TV spots. Who are you do tell them how to think about StarCraft? For them it's a tool not an altar.
Well, NaNiwa also agreed that there is no such thing as meaningless game between two professional gamers in eSports. So What's your point?
On December 16 2011 01:49 Elizar wrote: Ah, by the way: Naniwa apologized, which is the right thing to do from a diplomatic standpoint (although I don´t think that was neccessary, I can accept that). However, did GomTV apologized for the twitter-message calling him an amateur? If that would be the case please tell me, so I do not make false assumptions.
If you mean the money hunter thing that was a mistranslation.
thank you, this is good to know. so no apology is needed there.
I'm glad Naniwa got punished for it. There is so much effort required to organise the tournament, and to run the show in the studio, and Naniwa just makes a big joke out of it. Plus, it was a tournament to end a great year of Starcraft. I'm shocked how people can actually say he did nothing wrong. I guess it really is a difference of culture.
Two things. That apology wasn't written by Naniwa and I've said countless of times 'I hope he'll learn from this' when Naniwa had screwed up in both SC2 and WC3, and he never did. I won't do that again, Naniwa will never change.
On December 16 2011 02:21 Longshank wrote: Two things. That apology wasn't written by Naniwa and I've said countless of times 'I hope he'll learn from this' when Naniwa had screwed up in both SC2 and WC3, and he never did. I won't do that again, Naniwa will never change.
The words above were taken directly from NaNi through dictation
On December 16 2011 02:21 Longshank wrote: Two things. That apology wasn't written by Naniwa and I've said countless of times 'I hope he'll learn from this' when Naniwa had screwed up in both SC2 and WC3, and he never did. I won't do that again, Naniwa will never change.
Actions speak louder than words. The coming months will show if he actually learned anything from this or not. It's unfortunate that something like this had to happen for him to understand his status as an eSports start and what exactly that entails. You don't have to be a pillar of virtue (e.g. Idra [see what I did there? ] ) but you do need to carry yourself in such a fashion that yourself, your team, and your sponsors can continue to take pride in you as a player.
On December 16 2011 02:41 archonOOid wrote: he should apologize for his action but not for breaking any rules. GOM needs to step up it's professionalism by having a easily interpreted rule set.
GOM already said that Nani didn't break any rules (technically). But it's clear that he disrespected his opponent Nestea and the sponsors that previously considered to give sponsor seed to Nani for Code S while being televised to thousands of people.
I feel as if GOMtv will forgive Naniwa, along with a lot of the korean starcraft 2 pros, but the decision will not change. There may still be some trash talk underneath the surface, because of how e-sports is still growing, but it's a great step in the right direction, and if Naniwa is sincere about this, then my respect for him has grown much bigger.
On December 15 2011 06:08 LiamTheZerg wrote: I respect the team, but have lost any respect to Naniwa or his cut & paste apology. Being an adult and a professional means being able to control yourself, which is something he has failed to show he is capable of time and time again. Also, i dislike the asking to reconsider for a second chance. He openly disrespected GOM during a tournament that was meant to celebrate a great year of StarCraft. It's only a month, he can and should wait. I don't understand where everyone gets this sense of entitlement from. You mess up, you accept your punishment, and you learn from it for next time.
because in soccer icehockey and all other sports there are only very adult gentlemen ...
guys if i hear you all i think this is like murderer and in soccer someone hit another guy in their balls or smash their faces ... dont overreact to such little things ....
in worldchampionship teams play shit cause they dont care (already trough or WANT 2nd place etc) you expect best games and sometiems you see shit and unfair plays and fouls only ...
you guys sometimes do like starcraft is the only buisness that is not 100% legit adult
On December 16 2011 02:49 Falconpauunch wrote: I feel as if GOMtv will forgive Naniwa, along with a lot of the korean starcraft 2 pros, but the decision will not change. There may still be some trash talk underneath the surface, because of how e-sports is still growing, but it's a great step in the right direction, and if Naniwa is sincere about this, then my respect for him has grown much bigger.
Idra and Sen already received sponsor seed for Code S, but fans can still cheer NaNiwa to get a good result in GSL preleminary.
On December 16 2011 02:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Very smart of Quantic and Naniwa to issue an apology. And it was a good apology at that.
Shit happens. We'll get over it. It was one game.
Apology accepted. Best of luck to everyone in the future. Please don't do it again.
Love you guys ♥
This guy is what is wrong with this situation. Everyone in the entire universe is just willing to accept a forced apology and then sit on it, yet every month some different bull shit is coming up. And then we get another forced apology and everyone is happy again. How long can this keep up? Is it really okay to give someone who's obviously having a near impossible time of meeting the standards that his title implies 500 extra chances? The line needs to be drawn somewhere.
I respect how Quantic and Nani are taking this. I only wish he thought about this beforehand. I've wanted to see him play in GSL for so long, and I know how much he wanted it. But now thats ruined(for the time being).
Could anyone be kind enough to translate the comments from the koreans on the korean version of this on playxp? I'm rather curious what they think of this apology. Do they still hold a grudge or do they see it as it is, a clash of cultures?
On December 16 2011 03:35 Mikau wrote: Could anyone be kind enough to translate the comments from the koreans on the korean version of this on playxp? I'm rather curious what they think of this apology. Do they still hold a grudge or do they see it as it is, a clash of cultures?
I would be interested to see some sort of Korean netizen reaction to this whole incident, really. Are they are divided on the issue as we are, or is support more firmly behind GOM?
I think (if GOMTV is up for it) they should have a Naniwa vs Nestea match before or after the final for showmanship. It won't matter anymore than the game that Nani threw, but this time it won't be a probe rush :p
It's sad that Naniwa has been forced into such a sycophantic apology. I don't think choosing to do the probe rush was a perfect decision but i think it's been turned into something far worse than it is by over the top "your killing esports" reactions.
On December 16 2011 03:47 kylethewarlock wrote: I think (if GOMTV is up for it) they should have a Naniwa vs Nestea match before or after the final for showmanship. It won't matter anymore than the game that Nani threw, but this time it won't be a probe rush :p
u do realize that they wont show their best play if it doesnt mean anything...thats why korean players dont do show matches. its also why naniwa and many other players dont like to stream.
Sure, when you have 10 post on TL in one day about what you did in a meaningless game, when GOM itself punish you with rules that never existed in the first place and that everybody feel they need to give their own point of view on the new drama, sure you have to apoligy...
Ha publicity trick, everyone can fake sincerity, a pro-gamer so should know that no match is to be taken lightly and when you are in such a exclusive tournament it is a no brainer. but naniwa is like a mirror. once shattered it can never be made complete again you will always see the cracks. besides what happened in blizzard cup was the same attitude he demonstrated in providence and the invitational, so highly doubt he will truly change there is always that same old hole to fall into and i think he will
On December 16 2011 03:47 kylethewarlock wrote: I think (if GOMTV is up for it) they should have a Naniwa vs Nestea match before or after the final for showmanship. It won't matter anymore than the game that Nani threw, but this time it won't be a probe rush :p
u do realize that they wont show their best play if it doesnt mean anything...thats why korean players dont do show matches. its also why naniwa and many other players dont like to stream.
Wait but show matches have prizes...
That's how you get players to play in show matches...
That's incentive...
And Koreans do play in show matches...
You clearly don't understand what a show match is.
On December 16 2011 02:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Very smart of Quantic and Naniwa to issue an apology. And it was a good apology at that.
Shit happens. We'll get over it. It was one game.
Apology accepted. Best of luck to everyone in the future. Please don't do it again.
Love you guys ♥
This guy is what is wrong with this situation. Everyone in the entire universe is just willing to accept a forced apology and then sit on it, yet every month some different bull shit is coming up. And then we get another forced apology and everyone is happy again. How long can this keep up? Is it really okay to give someone who's obviously having a near impossible time of meeting the standards that his title implies 500 extra chances? The line needs to be drawn somewhere.
Jesus, what else do you want? He already got a ridiculously harsh punishment. He was already made an example of. You want him hung too?
It's called damage control and trying to move on with tournaments and pro-gamers' lives. It's time to put out the torch and put away the pitchfork.
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
"It's a game" argument for everything is getting REALLY old. It's not "just a game" anymore when there is an industry with jobs and money built around playing it and maintaining a certain level of professionalism.. Same way sports aren't "just a game" and have to enforce rules. American's take sports just as seriously, what the hells the difference? NFL players get penalized and fined thousands of dollars just for doing touchdown dances in football, players across various sports get fined and suspended for all sorts of reasons. They're all just "games" and yet it's ok to take them seriously but not starcraft?
Thinking the punishment is too harsh is fine, I think it might be too, but this "just a game" argument is just dumb. Please stop using this stupid, ridiculous argument.
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
"It's a game" argument for everything is getting REALLY old. It's not "just a game" anymore when there is an industry with jobs and money built around playing it and maintaining a certain level of professionalism.. Same way sports aren't "just a game" and have to enforce rules. American's take sports just as seriously, what the hells the difference? NFL players get penalized and fined thousands of dollars just for doing touchdown dances in football, players across various sports get fined and suspended for all sorts of reasons. They're all just "games" and yet it's ok to take them seriously but not starcraft?
Thinking the punishment is too harsh is fine, I think it might be too, but this "just a game" argument is just dumb. Please stop using this stupid, ridiculous argument.
But still, is just a game. Say what you want, but no harm comes from Naniwas choice. In life there are many serious things, many of them which are not even near to you because they are exclusive to 3rd world countries. And none of them, is gaming. Gaming is an activity than in reality is so unnecesary that i find myself feeling like an unrealistic idiot every time i treat it as something serious. Only after many and more important of your primary are secondary needs are met, only then are you able to treat something as shallow as a virtual self refening(*) human interaction as something important.
Face illness, unemployment, abandoment, murder, death, abuse, hunger, basically the sour patches of human life and then tell me that the reaction from the nerd community to this, is not to say the list insulting, when you have in mind, in what kind of world are we.
As someone who is exposed every day to massives amounts extreme neglected poverty i found hard to act like a probe rush is something deserving of the amounts of despite thrown here.
(*) I do not know if the term is either self refering or self referencing. What I mean is that starcraft, is about starcraft every time, and thats pretty much it.
pd. Please note that all i said applies for professional sports. And the reason players are fined, it´s because the Super-Rich are running the pro-sports business, and are not willing to risk their margins with random human behaviour from the players. Fines don't mean that something is important.
Ok guys first i wanna tell to all the STUPID ppl that thinks this decision by GOMtv is too harsh and bad and bla bla the following - ARE U RETARDED !! ?!?.This is the very least that GSL could have done to "punish" NaNiWa!He did the most idiotic thing that i have ever seen. SO here is the thing - I have bought the GSL Premium early ticket for 140$( coz ads are pretty annoying ) so I can watch my favourite players in my favourite tournament . The BlizzCup seemed to be pretty darn amazing considering all the champions participating in it and then what do I get.Some focking "emotional" prick ruining my whole experience , my whole day and my whole tournament by doing this most idiotic thing ever ?!?!? SRSLY ?!?!?.I was sooooo angry when I saw that that if i was there i would like yell to him so bad and ask him WTF IS HE THINKING HE IS DOING ?!!?!? if he was thinking at all which i really doubt a lot. . .If it was my decision i would bann him from GSL at least for some months , then i must talk to other tournament organizators and tell them about his "decision" so they can re-think their opinions on his attitude(if they want to of course) because that is something pretty serious.Now that maybe could sound a little bit "harsh and wrong" but not the GOMtv decision which would even allow him to participate in the next GSL which is after like 2-3 weeks LOL.He did something "amazing" and he must take the consequences of that shit! . . . because i pay to watch e-sports and I love it but actions like that are very unacceptable!
P.S. I doubt a little bit that the comment posted on teamliquid to be his own but if it is and he thinks that what he did was terrible then i could live with the GOMtv's decision to let him qualify for next GSL if he chooses to but anyway that was a thing that is hard to be forgotten I loved Naniwa and I was his fan but I doubt i can ever be such again and as for now I dont think i really wanna see him in the GSL unfortunately.
On December 16 2011 09:21 SharkZ wrote: Ok guys first i wanna tell to all the STUPID ppl that thinks this decision by GOMtv is too harsh and bad and bla bla the following - ARE U RETARDED !! ?!?.This is the very least that GSL could have done to "punish" NaNiWa!He did the most idiotic thing that i have ever seen. SO here is the thing - I have bought the GSL Premium early ticket for 140$( coz ads are pretty annoying ) so I can watch my favourite players in my favourite tournament . The BlizzCup seemed to be pretty darn amazing considering all the champions participating in it and then what do I get.Some focking "emotional" prick ruining my whole experience , my whole day and my whole tournament by doing this most idiotic thing ever ?!?!? SRSLY ?!?!?.I was sooooo angry when I saw that that if i was there i would like yell to him so bad and ask him WTF IS HE THINKING HE IS DOING ?!!?!? if he was thinking at all which i really doubt a lot. . .If it was my decision i would bann him from GSL at least for some months , then i must talk to other tournament organizators and tell them about his "decision" so they can re-think their opinions on his attitude(if they want to of course) because that is something pretty serious.Now that maybe could sound a little bit "harsh and wrong" but not the GOMtv decision which would even allow him to participate in the next GSL which is after like 2-3 weeks LOL.He did something "amazing" and he must take the consequences of that shit! . . . because i pay to watch e-sports and I love it but actions like that are very unacceptable!
P.S. I doubt a little bit that the comment posted on teamliquid to be his own but if it is and he thinks that what he did was terrible then i could live with the GOMtv's decision to let him qualify for next GSL if he chooses to but anyway that was a thing that is hard to be forgotten I loved Naniwa and I was his fan but I doubt i can ever be such again and as for now I dont think i really wanna see him in the GSL unfortunately.
So paying 140$ for a gold ticket gives you the right to tell everyone they are retarded ?
I think it would be epic to see a bo5 or something between NaNiwa and NesTea, i reckon that would really clear the air for the fans but maybe that's just me
You didn't need to apologize, Naniwa. That was stupid by GOM. It was pointless to play that game since it wouldn't have mattered and the only reason pros play is so that they can get money. Most pros don't play for fun, but for money. GOM should apologize.
That said, even if I believe Naniwa made a mess, I do find the punishment too severe. Decisions have to be taken by a rule of law. And on what grounds, based on which rules does GomTV decide on such a punishment? It's pathetic that they become a bunch of Koreans punishing a foreigner for BMing Koreans.
I mean, come on, we get to rid a lot of Korean pro interviews where there is a sense that they take foreign players lightly. There have also been some cases where Koreans criticized out loud foreign tournaments. And last, a lot of Koreans receive invites for foreign events for just being a skillful Korean, no matter if they are assholes or not. They might not have made the same stupid things Naniwa has in him, but foreigners getting GSL spots is a part of that exchange, and it should be honored. As long as Naniwa didn't break a written rule, you cannot act upon it.
lol ! This is so pathetic... I don't think it's possible to be more politically correct and hypocritical. I'm not a great fan of Naniwa but he definitely earned my respect by being so childish and unprofessional in this occasion and doing just what he wanted. Guess what: this is just a game ! People are getting too serious about e-sports without noticing that all this is just about big money (have a look at the thread on betting advices).
On December 16 2011 10:00 (Albert) wrote: lol ! This is so pathetic... I don't think it's possible to be more politically correct and hypocritical. I'm not a great fan of Naniwa but he definitely earned my respect by being so childish and unprofessional in this occasion and doing just what he wanted. Guess what: this is just a game ! People are getting too serious about e-sports without noticing that all this is just about big money (have a look at the thread on betting advices).
QFT. GOMTV trying to be politically correct when their basic message is "This is Korea broh, respect Koreans" etc. What a load of bullshit. I mean, I can understand some Korean fans having such reaction but come on.
What would happen if for some ridiculous reason like this Park (the ManU footballer) was banned?! I don't know just how popular football is there, but I guess they'd look into possible racism/nationalism issues. Well GOM are clearly trying to demonstrate a Korean/Non-Korean divide for their competitions. Hypocritical. Stop inviting all those "BM-ing" foreigners then, instead of fucking about.
Back when Zenio BM-ed Idra on stage for Idra's alleged BM on ladder (the two are ridiculously incomparable!), they had zilch to say. When almost all Korean-pros put their skirts on and cornered little Gracken, GOM had no issues with it (and this is right, it's not within their rules to interfere). Yet, apparently, when Naniwa BMs NesTea, it is not within (unwritten!) rules!
I have no love lost for either Idra or Naniwa, I am root for their opponents, but this is truly garbage stuff.
On December 16 2011 10:00 (Albert) wrote: lol ! This is so pathetic... I don't think it's possible to be more politically correct and hypocritical. I'm not a great fan of Naniwa but he definitely earned my respect by being so childish and unprofessional in this occasion and doing just what he wanted. Guess what: this is just a game ! People are getting too serious about e-sports without noticing that all this is just about big money (have a look at the thread on betting advices).
QFT. GOMTV trying to be politically correct when their basic message is "This is Korea broh, respect Koreans" etc. What a load of bullshit. I mean, I can understand some Korean fans having such reaction but come on.
What would happen if for some ridiculous reason like this Park (the ManU footballer) was banned?! I don't know just how popular football is there, but I guess they'd look into possible racism/nationalism issues. Well GOM are clearly trying to demonstrate a Korean/Non-Korean divide for their competitions. Hypocritical. Stop inviting all those "BM-ing" foreigners then, instead of fucking about.
Back when Zenio BM-ed Idra on stage for Idra's alleged BM on ladder (the two are ridiculously incomparable!), they had zilch to say. When almost all Korean-pros put their skirts on and cornered little Gracken, GOM had no issues with it (and this is right, it's not within their rules to interfere). Yet, apparently, when Naniwa BMs NesTea, it is not within (unwritten!) rules!
I have no love lost for either Idra or Naniwa, I am root for their opponents, but this is truly garbage stuff.
I have no idea what you're trying to say but there's a difference between BMing, a ceremony at the end of the game, and just plain giving up. If you try and lump them all in the same group, that's where you're wrong.
On December 16 2011 10:00 (Albert) wrote: lol ! This is so pathetic... I don't think it's possible to be more politically correct and hypocritical. I'm not a great fan of Naniwa but he definitely earned my respect by being so childish and unprofessional in this occasion and doing just what he wanted. Guess what: this is just a game ! People are getting too serious about e-sports without noticing that all this is just about big money (have a look at the thread on betting advices).
QFT. GOMTV trying to be politically correct when their basic message is "This is Korea broh, respect Koreans" etc. What a load of bullshit. I mean, I can understand some Korean fans having such reaction but come on.
What would happen if for some ridiculous reason like this Park (the ManU footballer) was banned?! I don't know just how popular football is there, but I guess they'd look into possible racism/nationalism issues. Well GOM are clearly trying to demonstrate a Korean/Non-Korean divide for their competitions. Hypocritical. Stop inviting all those "BM-ing" foreigners then, instead of fucking about.
Back when Zenio BM-ed Idra on stage for Idra's alleged BM on ladder (the two are ridiculously incomparable!), they had zilch to say. When almost all Korean-pros put their skirts on and cornered little Gracken, GOM had no issues with it (and this is right, it's not within their rules to interfere). Yet, apparently, when Naniwa BMs NesTea, it is not within (unwritten!) rules!
I have no love lost for either Idra or Naniwa, I am root for their opponents, but this is truly garbage stuff.
I don't know who Park is, but not everything around the world revolves around the US. In most sports in most country, bad sportsmanship and unprofessional conducts can and will get you penalized/banned.
Look up Jon Daly for most recent example
this is ridiculous. This isn't about Korean vs West, Naniwa has also been banned from 3 tourneys in the EU.
On December 16 2011 10:00 (Albert) wrote: lol ! This is so pathetic... I don't think it's possible to be more politically correct and hypocritical. I'm not a great fan of Naniwa but he definitely earned my respect by being so childish and unprofessional in this occasion and doing just what he wanted. Guess what: this is just a game ! People are getting too serious about e-sports without noticing that all this is just about big money (have a look at the thread on betting advices).
QFT. GOMTV trying to be politically correct when their basic message is "This is Korea broh, respect Koreans" etc. What a load of bullshit. I mean, I can understand some Korean fans having such reaction but come on.
What would happen if for some ridiculous reason like this Park (the ManU footballer) was banned?! I don't know just how popular football is there, but I guess they'd look into possible racism/nationalism issues. Well GOM are clearly trying to demonstrate a Korean/Non-Korean divide for their competitions. Hypocritical. Stop inviting all those "BM-ing" foreigners then, instead of fucking about.
Back when Zenio BM-ed Idra on stage for Idra's alleged BM on ladder (the two are ridiculously incomparable!), they had zilch to say. When almost all Korean-pros put their skirts on and cornered little Gracken, GOM had no issues with it (and this is right, it's not within their rules to interfere). Yet, apparently, when Naniwa BMs NesTea, it is not within (unwritten!) rules!
I have no love lost for either Idra or Naniwa, I am root for their opponents, but this is truly garbage stuff.
I don't know who Park is, but not everything around the world revolves around the US. In most sports in most country, bad sportsmanship and unprofessional conducts can and will get you penalized/banned.
Look up Jon Daly for most recent example
this is ridiculous. This isn't about Korean vs West, Naniwa has also been banned from 3 tourneys in the EU.
honestly this. The most popular sport in the states that's also broadcasted internationally is basketball, and that's like nothing compared to the amount of people who watch/care about soccer.
Good statement. I don't think GOM will go back on their decision but I think it would be nice to see Naniwa added to one of the 5 person groups in the Up and Downs.
1st note is a lie. Ego of any progamer does not let him apologize. As most of the extreme competitors in any field. I am 100% sure that Nani didnt want to say this just had to...
On December 16 2011 11:43 kickinhead wrote: so, Nani apologized, what about an apology from GomTV?
what apology? they don't need to apologize.
There are ppl that have a different opinion... I didn't think Naniwa had to apologize, but I think it's smart and fair that he did. The way GomTV reacted was very harsh, publicly discrediting Naniwa, totally calling him out, posting humiliating statements from coaches about him and lying about the whole Code-S spot from MLG.
On December 16 2011 11:43 kickinhead wrote: so, Nani apologized, what about an apology from GomTV?
what apology? they don't need to apologize.
There are ppl that have a different opinion... I didn't think Naniwa had to apologize, but I think it's smart and fair that he did. The way GomTV reacted was very harsh, publicly discrediting Naniwa, totally calling him out, posting humiliating statements from coaches about him and lying about the whole Code-S spot from MLG.
I think he should have apologized. But I think GOM's initial reaction (along with the Korean's) were too much. If you dont' have something good to say, just don't say it. I'm sure Naniwa isn't a bad person, and of course didn't mean for any of this to happen, but I agree with the decision from GOM that he should be punished. To discredit him and be like he's this and this and this, is just too much though
On December 16 2011 10:00 (Albert) wrote: lol ! This is so pathetic... I don't think it's possible to be more politically correct and hypocritical. I'm not a great fan of Naniwa but he definitely earned my respect by being so childish and unprofessional in this occasion and doing just what he wanted. Guess what: this is just a game ! People are getting too serious about e-sports without noticing that all this is just about big money (have a look at the thread on betting advices).
The difference between your view and Quantic/EG/GOMTV's view:
You think SC2 is a game. They dream to make ESPORTS into a legitimate sport alongside football, basketball, etc.
Eh, I don't know how I feel about this, it feels like Q just made Naniwa make the apology, I don't really buy it. Well, hopefully he's learned from his mistake.
On December 18 2011 01:48 Raithed wrote: Eh, I don't know how I feel about this, it feels like Q just made Naniwa make the apology, I don't really buy it. Well, hopefully he's learned from his mistake.
On December 16 2011 11:43 kickinhead wrote: so, Nani apologized, what about an apology from GomTV?
what apology? they don't need to apologize.
They don't have to apologize for not giving Naniwa a Code S seed after what he did, it would however be reasonable of them to apologize for the harsh words, and to some of us not only reasonable but essential for their relations with the foreign community (though obviously we don't all feel the same, but my guess is a lot of people are very upset with how they've acted) that they apologize for not being clear from the start with how they changed the LXP deal (or come clean that they were lying if that's the case, but there's no way they'd admit that). Also if there's some way for them to back up their words with some sort of evidence that they changed the LXP before providence (or before the event with Naniwa vs Nestea) then they would greatly profit from that. If they do that then they don't have to deal with people believing that they're lying bastards (regardless of whether they are or not), and for those who are aware of that it seems even more evident that they would be lying bastards if GOM doesn't show some evidence (even if they're staying silent for some other reason).
They could make this whole situation a whole lot easier for themselves, unless of course they've actually lied. Then there's only so much they can do...
On December 18 2011 01:48 Raithed wrote: Eh, I don't know how I feel about this, it feels like Q just made Naniwa make the apology, I don't really buy it. Well, hopefully he's learned from his mistake.
You should watch his interview on LO3 then.
this
i figured naniwa's apology was full of shit but his lo3 interview made me think otherwise, he seems to legitimately understand now that his starcraft 2 games aren't just for him, they are for his fans and Nestea's fans as well
On December 16 2011 10:00 (Albert) wrote: lol ! This is so pathetic... I don't think it's possible to be more politically correct and hypocritical. I'm not a great fan of Naniwa but he definitely earned my respect by being so childish and unprofessional in this occasion and doing just what he wanted. Guess what: this is just a game ! People are getting too serious about e-sports without noticing that all this is just about big money (have a look at the thread on betting advices).
It's not a just game when people put money, time, and effort into this. The action was disrespectful to everybody. I guess other sports are about big money too... and in some cases they are, but thats just the way it is. If nobody took it seriously like you suggest then there wouldn't be any eSports for nerds to enjoy, and I guess no body would make any big money either. Sounds like a lose/lose situation.
Can't see it - I need premium and pay to see failed probe rush. That is what it's all about - GOM doesn't want sucky games on purpose because PEOPLE PAY FOR THIS
On December 18 2011 20:16 Msr wrote: Knowing nani for years, I would say he did not mean his apology at all.
Me personally would only have done it as damages control, since it was a ridiculous punishment compared to what he did. It would as worst been a slap on wrist in the west. And don't understand people who are justifying it with "he has been banned before", in other cases he actually did something bad.
On December 16 2011 11:43 kickinhead wrote: so, Nani apologized, what about an apology from GomTV?
what apology? they don't need to apologize.
There are ppl that have a different opinion... I didn't think Naniwa had to apologize, but I think it's smart and fair that he did. The way GomTV reacted was very harsh, publicly discrediting Naniwa, totally calling him out, posting humiliating statements from coaches about him and lying about the whole Code-S spot from MLG.
I think he should have apologized. But I think GOM's initial reaction (along with the Korean's) were too much. If you dont' have something good to say, just don't say it. I'm sure Naniwa isn't a bad person, and of course didn't mean for any of this to happen, but I agree with the decision from GOM that he should be punished. To discredit him and be like he's this and this and this, is just too much though
Now you just answered your own question. They should appologise for the discrediting of naniwa.
Idk what kind of organization punishes people for people for reasons based on "honor" and "integrity". No rules were broken. If he broke a rule, the severe punishment would make sense. As it stands, it's silly and uncivilized. Stay savage, Korea.
I doubt NaNiwa meant what he said there. I mean, come on. He makes it sound as if he had a revelation after this incident. Suddenly, out of nowhere, thousands upon thousands of wild fans appear! He isn't that narrow minded? Clearly he must have known that his profession has fans and spectators as its foundation - the reason he even have bread on the table.
On December 18 2011 20:54 Slipspace wrote: Idk what kind of organization punishes people for people for reasons based on "honor" and "integrity". No rules were broken. If he broke a rule, the severe punishment would make sense. As it stands, it's silly and uncivilized. Stay savage, Korea.
On December 18 2011 20:54 Slipspace wrote: Idk what kind of organization punishes people for people for reasons based on "honor" and "integrity". No rules were broken. If he broke a rule, the severe punishment would make sense. As it stands, it's silly and uncivilized. Stay savage, Korea.
Yay contradiction.
no those things correspond perfectly..but it might be a bit biased, sure. if you're going to correct me, at least do it....correctly.
On December 18 2011 20:54 Slipspace wrote: Idk what kind of organization punishes people for people for reasons based on "honor" and "integrity". No rules were broken. If he broke a rule, the severe punishment would make sense. As it stands, it's silly and uncivilized. Stay savage, Korea.
On December 18 2011 20:16 Msr wrote: Knowing nani for years, I would say he did not mean his apology at all.
Me personally would only have done it as damages control, since it was a ridiculous punishment compared to what he did. It would as worst been a slap on wrist in the west. And don't understand people who are justifying it with "he has been banned before", in other cases he actually did something bad.
taking away free tickets to gsl code S is a slap on the wrist for what he did. He should have been banned from GSL just like any Korean would've if they pulled the same stunt.
On December 18 2011 20:58 colate wrote: I doubt NaNiwa meant what he said there. I mean, come on. He makes it sound as if he had a revelation after this incident. Suddenly, out of nowhere, thousands upon thousands of wild fans appear! He isn't that narrow minded? Clearly he must have known that his profession has fans and spectators as its foundation - the reason he even have bread on the table.
I find it fascinating that one the one hand it is considered professional and even expected to be dishonest in the sense that it would have been OK to throw the game in a non-obvious manner but not in an obious one. However when an appology is issued that might or might not have been crafted by PR professionals we immedeatly start to debatte if the apology is honest and from the heart. Have your cake and eat it too, as it were.
If you value professionalism over personality, here is a nice example of what you ultimately will get: Bland statements and players afraid to be humans instead of entertainment machines. It doesn't matter if the statement is damage control or heartfelt. It is what has been asked for by the community. Lesson learned, as it were, although I have my doubt that it was the right one.
On December 18 2011 20:58 colate wrote: I doubt NaNiwa meant what he said there. I mean, come on. He makes it sound as if he had a revelation after this incident. Suddenly, out of nowhere, thousands upon thousands of wild fans appear! He isn't that narrow minded? Clearly he must have known that his profession has fans and spectators as its foundation - the reason he even have bread on the table.
I find it fascinating that one the one hand it is considered professional and even expected to be dishonest in the sense that it would have been OK to throw the game in a non-obvious manner but not in an obious one. However when an appology is issued that might or might not have been crafted by PR professionals we immedeatly start to debatte if the apology is honest and from the heart. Have your cake and eat it too, as it were.
If you value professionalism over personality, here is a nice example of what you ultimately will get: Bland statements and players afraid to be humans instead of entertainment machines. It doesn't matter if the statement is damage control or heartfelt. It is what has been asked for by the community. Lesson learned, as it were, although I have my doubt that it was the right one.
nobody said it was ok to throw game in non-obvious manner, but obviously throwing games in obvious manner is really just sending out a message thinking that you are above everyone else. If you're going to cheat, don't announce to the class while doing it and think that makes you honest and it'll be fine.
reading threads like this allways makes me wonder how can people be so caring of other peoples buisness. You cant assume everyones perfect, just deal with it (or the way YOU want them to be).
The intelligent way:
I am looking fovard to the game, oh Naniwa threw it away, well i guess ill be looking for rematch.
The normal way of doing it :
I am TINGLING I WANA SEE THE GAME, Naniwa threw it away, FUCK THAT; WTF DUDE ASLEJAÖLSKJDASLDJ.
I guess thats why there is saying, haters gonna hate.
EDIT: But then again, most of e sports is probably built upon the second attitude.
On December 18 2011 21:21 LeibSaiLeib wrote: reading threads like this allways makes me wonder how can people be so caring of other peoples buisness. You cant assume everyones perfect, just deal with it (or the way YOU want them to be).
The intelligent way:
I am looking fovard to the game, oh Naniwa threw it away, well i guess ill be looking for rematch.
The normal way of doing it :
I am TINGLING I WANA SEE THE GAME, Naniwa threw it away, FUCK THAT; WTF DUDE ASLEJAÖLSKJDASLDJ.
I guess thats why there is saying, haters gonna hate.
EDIT: But then again, most of e sports is probably built upon the second attitude.
actually the intelligent way would be "i am glad Naniwa chose to throw away the game because it is meaningless anyway in regard to the tournament and you can't exactly determine the better player based off of a best of 3 series anyway so naniwa actually gave me an hour of my life back"
On December 18 2011 21:21 LeibSaiLeib wrote: reading threads like this allways makes me wonder how can people be so caring of other peoples buisness. You cant assume everyones perfect, just deal with it (or the way YOU want them to be).
The intelligent way:
I am looking fovard to the game, oh Naniwa threw it away, well i guess ill be looking for rematch.
The normal way of doing it :
I am TINGLING I WANA SEE THE GAME, Naniwa threw it away, FUCK THAT; WTF DUDE ASLEJAÖLSKJDASLDJ.
I guess thats why there is saying, haters gonna hate.
EDIT: But then again, most of e sports is probably built upon the second attitude.
actually the intelligent way would be "i am glad Naniwa chose to throw away the game because it is meaningless anyway in regard to the tournament and you can't exactly determine the better player based off of a best of 3 series anyway so naniwa actually gave me an hour of my life back"
Was trying to say, that the intelligent way is not to get emotional over something you have no control over.
But, as knowing the communty is doing it in the second way, you as intelligent human being can calmly think:"I guess he should have played the game, since there is more then just winning to e-sports."
On December 18 2011 21:21 LeibSaiLeib wrote: reading threads like this allways makes me wonder how can people be so caring of other peoples buisness. You cant assume everyones perfect, just deal with it (or the way YOU want them to be).
The intelligent way:
I am looking fovard to the game, oh Naniwa threw it away, well i guess ill be looking for rematch.
The normal way of doing it :
I am TINGLING I WANA SEE THE GAME, Naniwa threw it away, FUCK THAT; WTF DUDE ASLEJAÖLSKJDASLDJ.
I guess thats why there is saying, haters gonna hate.
EDIT: But then again, most of e sports is probably built upon the second attitude.
actually the intelligent way would be "i am glad Naniwa chose to throw away the game because it is meaningless anyway in regard to the tournament and you can't exactly determine the better player based off of a best of 3 series anyway so naniwa actually gave me an hour of my life back"
Was trying to say, that the intelligent way is not to get emotional over something you have no control over.
But, as knowing the communty is doing it in the second way, you as intelligent human being can calmly think:"I guess he should have played the game, since there is more then just winning to e-sports."
sure, if you care about the people who get last, second to last, etc
On December 18 2011 20:58 colate wrote: I doubt NaNiwa meant what he said there. I mean, come on. He makes it sound as if he had a revelation after this incident. Suddenly, out of nowhere, thousands upon thousands of wild fans appear! He isn't that narrow minded? Clearly he must have known that his profession has fans and spectators as its foundation - the reason he even have bread on the table.
I find it fascinating that one the one hand it is considered professional and even expected to be dishonest in the sense that it would have been OK to throw the game in a non-obvious manner but not in an obious one. However when an appology is issued that might or might not have been crafted by PR professionals we immedeatly start to debatte if the apology is honest and from the heart. Have your cake and eat it too, as it were.
If you value professionalism over personality, here is a nice example of what you ultimately will get: Bland statements and players afraid to be humans instead of entertainment machines. It doesn't matter if the statement is damage control or heartfelt. It is what has been asked for by the community. Lesson learned, as it were, although I have my doubt that it was the right one.
nobody said it was ok to throw game in non-obvious manner, but obviously throwing games in obvious manner is really just sending out a message thinking that you are above everyone else. If you're going to cheat, don't announce to the class while doing it and think that makes you honest and it'll be fine.
Everyone that said "He should have just 4gated and got it over with" essentially says that.
As for cheating, cheating refers to the breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive situation. He broke no rules and gained no advantage. So thats not what happened here. Nani threw a meaningless game, something that many consider unprofessional. The difference should be obvious.
On December 18 2011 20:58 colate wrote: I doubt NaNiwa meant what he said there. I mean, come on. He makes it sound as if he had a revelation after this incident. Suddenly, out of nowhere, thousands upon thousands of wild fans appear! He isn't that narrow minded? Clearly he must have known that his profession has fans and spectators as its foundation - the reason he even have bread on the table.
I find it fascinating that one the one hand it is considered professional and even expected to be dishonest in the sense that it would have been OK to throw the game in a non-obvious manner but not in an obious one. However when an appology is issued that might or might not have been crafted by PR professionals we immedeatly start to debatte if the apology is honest and from the heart. Have your cake and eat it too, as it were.
If you value professionalism over personality, here is a nice example of what you ultimately will get: Bland statements and players afraid to be humans instead of entertainment machines. It doesn't matter if the statement is damage control or heartfelt. It is what has been asked for by the community. Lesson learned, as it were, although I have my doubt that it was the right one.
I guess you are comparing Stephano vs. Brat.OK at Assembly contra NaNiwa vs. Nestea at Blizzard Cup? I am pleased that Quanticgaming and NaNiwa apologized to the community and GomTV, and I am perfectly aware what kind of statements is to be expected. I believe the last part of NaNiwa's apology shows that he is willing to portray himself as a selfish, narrow minded person in order to gain the fans/community's trust. But thats how these statements are, in any kind of sport.
GOMTV is in Korea where Naniwa wants to compete. GOM can take away his ability to compete for reasons that don't really seem appropriate for his "transgression" or however you want to phrase it. Was he match-fixing? Fuck no, he didn't care, and anyone thinking a "meaningless four-gate" would have made a difference, well, you're probably right. Many Koreans would consider foreigner protoss players a joke. They can't play or Micro really well and they relied on a cheesy strategy to win the game. That's a half assed four gate. That sounds fucking amazing for foreigners in e-sports. No, it sounds really silly and stupid.
On December 18 2011 20:58 colate wrote: I doubt NaNiwa meant what he said there. I mean, come on. He makes it sound as if he had a revelation after this incident. Suddenly, out of nowhere, thousands upon thousands of wild fans appear! He isn't that narrow minded? Clearly he must have known that his profession has fans and spectators as its foundation - the reason he even have bread on the table.
I find it fascinating that one the one hand it is considered professional and even expected to be dishonest in the sense that it would have been OK to throw the game in a non-obvious manner but not in an obious one. However when an appology is issued that might or might not have been crafted by PR professionals we immedeatly start to debatte if the apology is honest and from the heart. Have your cake and eat it too, as it were.
If you value professionalism over personality, here is a nice example of what you ultimately will get: Bland statements and players afraid to be humans instead of entertainment machines. It doesn't matter if the statement is damage control or heartfelt. It is what has been asked for by the community. Lesson learned, as it were, although I have my doubt that it was the right one.
nobody said it was ok to throw game in non-obvious manner, but obviously throwing games in obvious manner is really just sending out a message thinking that you are above everyone else. If you're going to cheat, don't announce to the class while doing it and think that makes you honest and it'll be fine.
Everyone that said "He should have just 4gated and got it over with" essentially says that.
As for cheating, cheating refers to the breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive situation. He broke no rules and gained no advantage. So thats not what happened here. Nani threw a meaningless game, something that many consider unprofessional. The difference should be obvious.
You are only listing one definition of cheating. Cheating is also "To violate rules deliberately", which last I check match fixing is breaking the rule.
These terms are not important anyway. Point is be a professional, or at least have the decency to pretend to be one, when playing competitive Starcraft in GSL or face consequences
On December 18 2011 21:21 LeibSaiLeib wrote: reading threads like this allways makes me wonder how can people be so caring of other peoples buisness. You cant assume everyones perfect, just deal with it (or the way YOU want them to be).
The intelligent way:
I am looking fovard to the game, oh Naniwa threw it away, well i guess ill be looking for rematch.
The normal way of doing it :
I am TINGLING I WANA SEE THE GAME, Naniwa threw it away, FUCK THAT; WTF DUDE ASLEJAÖLSKJDASLDJ.
I guess thats why there is saying, haters gonna hate.
EDIT: But then again, most of e sports is probably built upon the second attitude.
ironically the way you replied is anything but intelligent.
On December 18 2011 20:16 Msr wrote: Knowing nani for years, I would say he did not mean his apology at all.
Me personally would only have done it as damages control, since it was a ridiculous punishment compared to what he did. It would as worst been a slap on wrist in the west. And don't understand people who are justifying it with "he has been banned before", in other cases he actually did something bad.
taking away free tickets to gsl code S is a slap on the wrist for what he did. He should have been banned from GSL just like any Korean would've if they pulled the same stunt.
This is where we disagree. I can understand people being a bit disappointed but nothing more.
On December 18 2011 21:21 LeibSaiLeib wrote: reading threads like this allways makes me wonder how can people be so caring of other peoples buisness. You cant assume everyones perfect, just deal with it (or the way YOU want them to be).
The intelligent way:
I am looking fovard to the game, oh Naniwa threw it away, well i guess ill be looking for rematch.
The normal way of doing it :
I am TINGLING I WANA SEE THE GAME, Naniwa threw it away, FUCK THAT; WTF DUDE ASLEJAÖLSKJDASLDJ.
I guess thats why there is saying, haters gonna hate.
EDIT: But then again, most of e sports is probably built upon the second attitude.
Dividing a point of view into two groups is to stereotype this community. It all comes down to the norms in the Starcraft II community. There are unwritten rules specifying what behavior are acceptable within this community. But these norms aren't the same as the social norms outside of the starcraft universe. We tolorate to a certain extent bad manners (Idra, NaNiwa) and we also shun it (Combat-EX). We also love and praise players with good manners (Sheth, White-Ra). "GL HF" and "GG" have been incorporated into professional games and ladder games as standard behavior - just like the handshake before and after a football match.
What I am trying to say is that the community expect a certain behavior of NaNiwa. The actions NaNiwa took against Nestea did not meet the expectations of the foreign community and certainly not the korean community. His actions were frown upon by the majority of the community - and ultimatly his Code S seed was revoked.
Yes - haters gonna hate when the players behavior is unacceptable. All sports is built upon what you call the 'second attitude' - which I call norms.
On December 18 2011 21:21 LeibSaiLeib wrote: reading threads like this allways makes me wonder how can people be so caring of other peoples buisness. You cant assume everyones perfect, just deal with it (or the way YOU want them to be).
The intelligent way:
I am looking fovard to the game, oh Naniwa threw it away, well i guess ill be looking for rematch.
The normal way of doing it :
I am TINGLING I WANA SEE THE GAME, Naniwa threw it away, FUCK THAT; WTF DUDE ASLEJAÖLSKJDASLDJ.
I guess thats why there is saying, haters gonna hate.
EDIT: But then again, most of e sports is probably built upon the second attitude.
Dividing a point of view into two groups is to stereotype this community. It all comes down to the norms in the Starcraft II community. There are unwritten rules specifying what behavior are acceptable within this community. But these norms aren't the same as the social norms outside of the starcraft universe. We tolorate to a certain extent bad manners (Idra, NaNiwa) and we also shun it (Combat-EX). We also love and praise players with good manners (Sheth, White-Ra). "GL HF" and "GG" have been incorporated into professional games and ladder games as standard behavior - just like the handshake before and after a football match.
What I am trying to say is that the community expect a certain behavior of NaNiwa. The actions NaNiwa took against Nestea did not meet the expectations of the foreign community and certainly not the korean community. His actions were frown upon by the majority of the community - and ultimatly his Code S seed was revoked.
Yes - haters gonna hate when the players behavior is unacceptable. All sports is built upon what you call the 'second attitude' - which I call norms.
"We" tolerate bad manners because people think it's fun. It provides for entertainment while not really hurting anyone. What "we" don't tolerate is when we don't get entertained even though the rules allow it to happen.
Bad behavior should be punished by the player's team and not by some tournament organizer. There certainly are instances where I think tournament organizer should punish players. This wasn't one.
It was a useless match. Like said in Nanis interview many other players have 6pooled when they wanted to get over the matches in "important" situations. It's just because its Nani no other reason bullshit.
On December 19 2011 01:28 KulterBaun wrote: It was a useless match. Like said in Nanis interview many other players have 6pooled when they wanted to get over the matches in "important" situations. It's just because its Nani no other reason bullshit.
They have a chance to win with a 6 pool... he has no chance to win with a worker rush. That is why they are angry.
Get over it, it's over. Your discussion isn't gonna change the fact he threw a game and upset GOM and disrespected Nestea and a lot of other ppl. He apologized and I hope you realize that not everything in the world is fair.
Nani has learned from a silly mistake, you should too.
On December 19 2011 01:28 KulterBaun wrote: It was a useless match. Like said in Nanis interview many other players have 6pooled when they wanted to get over the matches in "important" situations. It's just because its Nani no other reason bullshit.
On December 19 2011 01:28 KulterBaun wrote: It was a useless match. Like said in Nanis interview many other players have 6pooled when they wanted to get over the matches in "important" situations. It's just because its Nani no other reason bullshit.
The players who have 6 pooled in the GSL have all attempted to micro for the win (IdrA v Jinro on Jungle Basin sticks out in my head). Having spent some time on PlayXP recently, it's pretty clear that taking his hands off the mouse after A-moving is one of the major bones of contention. The strategy itself was (arguably) throwing the game in its ownright, but to not even control your probes is making a mockery of the game. Every single other player who has been at the GSL has given it their all, and as referenced above, even their giving up wasn't as halfassed.
I like Naniwa, but it was a stupid decision what he did, and I'm not surprised or disappointed he got this punishment. Pretty appropriate IMO.
On December 18 2011 20:58 colate wrote: I doubt NaNiwa meant what he said there. I mean, come on. He makes it sound as if he had a revelation after this incident. Suddenly, out of nowhere, thousands upon thousands of wild fans appear! He isn't that narrow minded? Clearly he must have known that his profession has fans and spectators as its foundation - the reason he even have bread on the table.
I find it fascinating that one the one hand it is considered professional and even expected to be dishonest in the sense that it would have been OK to throw the game in a non-obvious manner but not in an obious one. However when an appology is issued that might or might not have been crafted by PR professionals we immedeatly start to debatte if the apology is honest and from the heart. Have your cake and eat it too, as it were.
If you value professionalism over personality, here is a nice example of what you ultimately will get: Bland statements and players afraid to be humans instead of entertainment machines. It doesn't matter if the statement is damage control or heartfelt. It is what has been asked for by the community. Lesson learned, as it were, although I have my doubt that it was the right one.
nobody said it was ok to throw game in non-obvious manner, but obviously throwing games in obvious manner is really just sending out a message thinking that you are above everyone else. If you're going to cheat, don't announce to the class while doing it and think that makes you honest and it'll be fine.
Everyone that said "He should have just 4gated and got it over with" essentially says that.
As for cheating, cheating refers to the breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive situation. He broke no rules and gained no advantage. So thats not what happened here. Nani threw a meaningless game, something that many consider unprofessional. The difference should be obvious.
You are only listing one definition of cheating. Cheating is also "To violate rules deliberately", which last I check match fixing is breaking the rule.
These terms are not important anyway. Point is be a professional, or at least have the decency to pretend to be one, when playing competitive Starcraft in GSL or face consequences
Yes, and my original point was that now that Naniwa learned that lesson and issued a very professional looking apology (facing the consequences as it were) to GOM and community it is quite disingenious to come after him for "not meaning it".
Regarding the definition of cheating, I am pretty sure the common definition of cheating includes that the cheater (or a benifivcary) gains an advantage. Or is anybody breaking a rule a cheater?
Being a pro gamer is a job, the player in this tournament were paid winning or losing they get some money, they are paid to give it their best and to provide entertainment for the viewer, throwing a game away like that is not a good thing, you need to do your best in every situation since you are paid for it.
On December 19 2011 01:28 KulterBaun wrote: It was a useless match. Like said in Nanis interview many other players have 6pooled when they wanted to get over the matches in "important" situations. It's just because its Nani no other reason bullshit.
They have a chance to win with a 6 pool... he has no chance to win with a worker rush. That is why they are angry.
Get over it, it's over. Your discussion isn't gonna change the fact he threw a game and upset GOM and disrespected Nestea and a lot of other ppl. He apologized and I hope you realize that not everything in the world is fair.
Nani has learned from a silly mistake, you should too.
*raise eyebrow*
Interesting justification for what GOM did. I actually kind of like it. 'There is little to no recourse for GOM doing this, so they should do it.' It's so unabashedly Machiavellian. I love it.
That's the sort of thing that drove me to be interested in History. Movements of troops? Meh, that's boring. Power relations? Delicious.
On December 19 2011 01:28 KulterBaun wrote: It was a useless match. Like said in Nanis interview many other players have 6pooled when they wanted to get over the matches in "important" situations. It's just because its Nani no other reason bullshit.
Because its Nani? How does that even make sense?
KulterBaun is Swedish, that's how it makes sense.(To him)
Anyways, nice to see a grown up comment from Naniwa. Just hope we can get this out of the way.
On December 18 2011 21:21 LeibSaiLeib wrote: reading threads like this allways makes me wonder how can people be so caring of other peoples buisness. You cant assume everyones perfect, just deal with it (or the way YOU want them to be).
The intelligent way:
I am looking fovard to the game, oh Naniwa threw it away, well i guess ill be looking for rematch.
The normal way of doing it :
I am TINGLING I WANA SEE THE GAME, Naniwa threw it away, FUCK THAT; WTF DUDE ASLEJAÖLSKJDASLDJ.
I guess thats why there is saying, haters gonna hate.
EDIT: But then again, most of e sports is probably built upon the second attitude.
ironically the way you replied is anything but intelligent.
On December 18 2011 21:21 LeibSaiLeib wrote: reading threads like this allways makes me wonder how can people be so caring of other peoples buisness. You cant assume everyones perfect, just deal with it (or the way YOU want them to be).
The intelligent way:
I am looking fovard to the game, oh Naniwa threw it away, well i guess ill be looking for rematch.
The normal way of doing it :
I am TINGLING I WANA SEE THE GAME, Naniwa threw it away, FUCK THAT; WTF DUDE ASLEJAÖLSKJDASLDJ.
I guess thats why there is saying, haters gonna hate.
EDIT: But then again, most of e sports is probably built upon the second attitude.
Dividing a point of view into two groups is to stereotype this community. It all comes down to the norms in the Starcraft II community. There are unwritten rules specifying what behavior are acceptable within this community. But these norms aren't the same as the social norms outside of the starcraft universe. We tolorate to a certain extent bad manners (Idra, NaNiwa) and we also shun it (Combat-EX). We also love and praise players with good manners (Sheth, White-Ra). "GL HF" and "GG" have been incorporated into professional games and ladder games as standard behavior - just like the handshake before and after a football match.
What I am trying to say is that the community expect a certain behavior of NaNiwa. The actions NaNiwa took against Nestea did not meet the expectations of the foreign community and certainly not the korean community. His actions were frown upon by the majority of the community - and ultimatly his Code S seed was revoked.
Yes - haters gonna hate when the players behavior is unacceptable. All sports is built upon what you call the 'second attitude' - which I call norms.
"We" tolerate bad manners because people think it's fun. It provides for entertainment while not really hurting anyone. What "we" don't tolerate is when we don't get entertained even though the rules allow it to happen.
Bad behavior should be punished by the player's team and not by some tournament organizer. There certainly are instances where I think tournament organizer should punish players. This wasn't one.
Wrote a long reply, but deleted it. Guess i just fell for human desire to argue and shine in a pointless topic wich i cant add anything, wasting my time and other peoples time (like most of the people here lol).
This is still a matter of discussion? I cannot believe people are still hanging onto this. The matter is settled and has been settled and there is nothing one person can do about it.
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
I love the way you said that. And where you said that as well. I mean sure on some internet forums, SC's just a game. But on TL, it's a lifestyle. Think about the audience before making amazingly judgmental comments please.
On December 19 2011 09:45 Quasimoto3000 wrote: Huge Nani fan. GL HF in the future Nani, look forward to you taking out more koreans in GSL. -Quas
trolled? naniwa has not taken out anyone in the gsl... lol...
I still love Fionn's comments....
Obtain Code A spot? Lose to lucky Obtain another Code A spot? Lose to lucky Obtain ANOTHER Code A spot? Lose to lucky Obtain Code S spot? To be continued...
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
I don't understand anybody being mad at GOM unless they lied about the format or changed it last minute without telling anybody. People who provide opportunities are never at fault. If I create a tournament tomorrow where I say all players MUST play 20 games no matter what but only first prize gets money then that is a GOOD thing. The community would vote on the value of my tournament with viewership and participation. It is up to the organizer to figure out how to make money (which GOM did by televising such a high profile match). It is the the players job to validate formats with their presence and then do as they are told to the standards of their employers.
If anything Naniwa still has work to do to prove he has changed.
On December 15 2011 06:09 KAkos MAgos wrote: well dont apologize. idra ragequits and is badmannered too and no one says something. GOMTV is being sillly with its descision. comon. ITS A GAME WTF. thank go we are not like the koreans and take that whole gaming thing so seriously.
Its not a game, its their lives and job.
This is my perspective exactly. They don't play this game for fun, but for money. "Money-hunter" is harsh, but accurate.
Respect to both, team and player, Quantic and Naniwa. I hope this is meant serious by Naniwa and if it turns out to be, I may even cheer for him in the future.
Reading a lot of the Korean comments on PlayXP, it looks like none of them believe him, haha. They're basically saying "He's been all talk before, we'll see if he comes through this time."
On December 19 2011 09:45 Quasimoto3000 wrote: Huge Nani fan. GL HF in the future Nani, look forward to you taking out more koreans in GSL. -Quas
trolled? naniwa has not taken out anyone in the gsl... lol...
I still love Fionn's comments....
Obtain Code A spot? Lose to lucky Obtain another Code A spot? Lose to lucky Obtain ANOTHER Code A spot? Lose to lucky Obtain Code S spot? To be continued...
I'd say most of ppl defending Nani are swedish, not eastern EU. Anyway - like someone said - it is his job, so he is supposed to take it seriously. And as I stated in other threads - Nani can worker rush all day long, but on the ladder, not on televised match. And I'm all for punishing players, who behave inappropriately - yes, they can bring entertainment value by BM'ing or w/e, but they should be aware of the consequences.
What I hate about events like this is, that everyone can make a decent apology and unless you talk to one personally, you will never find out if there is any sort of meaning behind it, other than hoping one's image is saved this way / opportunities reopen.
I do not say Naniwas apology is a fraud, I actually think and want to believe that it is not. However, you never know...
Anyway, I think this whole crisis will help Naniwa a lot in order to become a more successfull pro and a more mature person.
Also, I hope that GOM will only revoke the invitiation for that GSL, not for all GSLs coming after this. Meaning that they still consider inviting him and will do so if he shows the same incredible amount of skill and succes as he as done the past couple of months.
On December 20 2011 20:10 AT_Tack wrote: wow quantic did a good job putting words in naniwas mouth...
he was probably like: "okok, i sign now gtfo i want to play!"
I guess it needs to be said again: Watch the LO3 with Naniwa, and then you can say whether he's earnest or not.
What I would like to know is who had the most influence in explaining to him why what he did was so bad. Sase maybe? Idk, but I would sure like to know.
On December 15 2011 08:26 callthecops wrote: This stuff happens in REAL sports.. bot of the 9th inning in baseball? Home teams that are winning don't play it.. but I guess they should "for the fans". What a joke, the guy probe rushed in a game that didn't matter at all. WHO CARES
I'd rather players be truthful than fake a game. If he would have half assed a 4 gate game and still lost all the tmz reddit tools would have thought Naniwa was serious and legitimately lost. Personally I don't care about games that have nothing on the line, they will always mean nothing, and players will never take them 100% seriously. I would much rather see Naniwa vs. Nestea when there is something to lose knowing they are going to give it their all.
On December 15 2011 08:26 callthecops wrote: This stuff happens in REAL sports.. bot of the 9th inning in baseball? Home teams that are winning don't play it.. but I guess they should "for the fans". What a joke, the guy probe rushed in a game that didn't matter at all. WHO CARES
This isn't baseball, Starcraft is a real sport, and in sports you look like a sore loser. You disrespect the people who came to watch you put effort into the game, the people you are playing, and the people who organized the competition. Every match is recorded and a players stats are saved, game throwing is not tolerated and not professional behavior. And yes, I care.
On December 26 2011 02:39 clik wrote: I'd rather players be truthful than fake a game. If he would have half assed a 4 gate game and still lost all the tmz reddit tools would have thought Naniwa was serious and legitimately lost. Personally I don't care about games that have nothing on the line, they will always mean nothing, and players will never take them 100% seriously. I would much rather see Naniwa vs. Nestea when there is something to lose knowing they are going to give it their all.
get your elitist attitude in check. gom put the match on stage for everyone to see, if that isn't enough for a player to get motivated to show the best they got, then they're not being professional and they are hurting esports. there's a reason the tournament was broadcasted, if all people cared about were results then a quick score sheet would of been the tournament.
This still bothers me today almost as much as before. Apologizing for nothing, and if he's earnest I would blame it on bad influence from the Korean community.
At least I didn't buy a GSL ticket for the first time. Hope I can stay away from it.
I didn't watch these games live but I really can't understand how people are able to throw away their "good" image in just a few seconds. We all know that Naniwa's and NesTea's rivalry was built up strongly but this is no excuse to act like that in public. GOMTV's decision to revoke his Code S seed is right. He showed to f finger to everyone and not only to NesTea.
On December 26 2011 02:39 clik wrote: I'd rather players be truthful than fake a game. If he would have half assed a 4 gate game and still lost all the tmz reddit tools would have thought Naniwa was serious and legitimately lost. Personally I don't care about games that have nothing on the line, they will always mean nothing, and players will never take them 100% seriously. I would much rather see Naniwa vs. Nestea when there is something to lose knowing they are going to give it their all.
get your elitist attitude in check. gom put the match on stage for everyone to see, if that isn't enough for a player to get motivated to show the best they got, then they're not being professional and they are hurting esports. there's a reason the tournament was broadcasted, if all people cared about were results then a quick score sheet would of been the tournament.
What is with that terrible use of "would of" lately? The whole Internet seems to be plagued with this encouragement to incorrect grammar.
More so, clik never said it was only about results. It's about people differing in terms of what they call "quality entertainment". It's about authenticity. I personally switched off the MVP vs Nestea series back then, because to me it became an utter farce.
It was certainly disrespectful, inconsiderate of Naniwa- towards parts of the audience. This part just happens to be the largest one. It doesn't mean he was disrespectful towards everyone in general.
This thread is huge and obviously I have not read it all but I would like to add a few things.
I was working in Korea back in 2000-2002. Already at that time they had a dedicated Stardcraft channel on TV which I loved to watch even if comentary was in Korea. Korean culture is extremely difficult and almost upside down compared to western in Europe and US. I would say that only the Japanese culture is harder to penetrate. Starcraft is as you all know a religion in Korea and everyone cares. 50 million people, that is. I like koreans, so many good things to say, but there are also many bad things (in western way to see it). One of them is that koreans are extremely group minded (we are individual minded) and nationalistic (much more than ie americans will ever be).
One should understand that the background to this story.
Study Naniwa in intervju's before and during the MLG it was easy to understand he was too young and had too much childish attitude to know his own best. Intervjus between games made him look really bad. I am sure he is just young, inexperienced and perhaps a bit afraid why he is hiding behind all that attitude which noone likes, not even Swedes like me. But in western cultures we can kind of accept that.
What the koreans saw was something different. They saw a foregner that not only crushed their national hero in SC2 but in intervjus also saying he is a bad player. That took pride from Koreans. I young new guy made Nestea loose his face. You might get away with it if you have been around for some while (senior thinking) but in korean eyes, Naniwa (and other newcomers) will be a junior for a long time. And for national heroes like MMA, MVP, Nestea, Boxer etc you should probably never say anything bad about them.
So when he gets to GSL and does this probe rush, which aparently made the koreans rage it was an easy call for them to throw him out. How this decision is right or wrong in wwestern eyes is not important.
So what to do now for my fellow Swedish friend is to grow up mentallyand behave and keep playing good SC2. The koreans might accept him after a year or two if he can behave, show respect, learn a little about Korean culture and NOT making their national heroes loose their face. Look at the other young new korean players. Even if they would beat a ie MMA they would still bow and say nice things about them.
Koreans hate loosing face to westerners. Since we don't understand when they do it, they have no weapon against it, and they hate it.
Edit: When MC show a thumb down to Idra, he is doing that in ourwestern style. And you have to be MC to get away with it. All love to all players mentioned in this thread for playing great SC2.
I'm still ashamed foreigner fans of Naniwa still can't understand that was he did as wrong and that he was punished accordingly. I have blood of both Asian and European ancestors with a melting pot attitude of a Hawaii born American, the point being that I see all activities in a unbiased and worldly cultured manner, and I can accurately say this was no difference of culture. Naniwa and his loyal fans were in the wrong here. I am happy the subsequent punishments were handed down because they were completely warranted. Gom will still thrive regardless and this event, though perhaps never forgotten, will only serve as a positive example for the future that you can't do anything you want selfishly without regard to consequence.
On January 06 2012 07:27 kimchikid wrote: What the koreans saw was something different. They saw a foregner that not only crushed their national hero in SC2 but in intervjus also saying he is a bad player. That took pride from Koreans. I young new guy made Nestea loose his face. You might get away with it if you have been around for some while (senior thinking) but in korean eyes, Naniwa (and other newcomers) will be a junior for a long time. And for national heroes like MMA, MVP, Nestea, Boxer etc you should probably never say anything bad about them.
So when he gets to GSL and does this probe rush, which aparently made the koreans rage it was an easy call for them to throw him out. How this decision is right or wrong in wwestern eyes is not important.
So what to do now for my fellow Swedish friend is to grow up mentallyand behave and keep playing good SC2. The koreans might accept him after a year or two if he can behave, show respect, learn a little about Korean culture and NOT making their national heroes loose their face. Look at the other young new korean players. Even if they would beat a ie MMA they would still bow and say nice things about them.
Koreans hate loosing face to westerners. Since we don't understand when they do it, they have no weapon against it, and they hate it.
What are you talking about
- Idra beat Koreans.So did HuK. - What do you mean by "Loose his face" ("Lose?"), it's just a single match, statistically that many games doesn't mean one player is "better" than another player. - it's not because "Oh Naniwa probe rushed _NesTea_" its because of professionalism. although both sides are at fault for this (GOM for putting useless games in, and naniwa for unprofessionalism --- Not because "oh because before Naniwa beat NesTea and made Nestea lose face")
And why bump this for no reason, the deed and everything's done. No point in reopening this ffs.
On January 06 2012 08:38 Liph wrote: I'm still ashamed foreigner fans of Naniwa still can't understand that was he did as wrong and that he was punished accordingly. I have blood of both Asian and European ancestors with a melting pot attitude of a Hawaii born American, the point being that I see all activities in a unbiased and worldly cultured manner, and I can accurately say this was no difference of culture. Naniwa and his loyal fans were in the wrong here. I am happy the subsequent punishments were handed down because they were completely warranted. Gom will still thrive regardless and this event, though perhaps never forgotten, will only serve as a positive example for the future that you can't do anything you want selfishly without regard to consequence.
Yeah. naniwa was wrong in doing that, but GOM wasn't' 100% pure either.
GOM's wrong _was_ that they put in a useless game, and they should prevent that. That's all.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PZzye.png)
. Or if GOM wasn't so rushed to make a descision and actually heard what Quantic and Nani had to say.
