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On December 14 2011 21:12 Velr wrote:
And whats up with the people acting up for punishing a player that is willingly dropping a televised game, he is paid for to play in, in a very obvious way.
He does not want to play?
Well do some all-in cannon rush / Proxigate whatever (you might even end up winning ^^). No one would care, but prope rushng is just not acceptable... Or just start the game and then leave his PC...
Exactly.
Trying but doing something stupid and gg'ing if it doesn't work ... everyone will know he decided he didn't want to play a serious game so he cheesed and it either worked or it didn't.
But forfeiting isn't acceptable.
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On December 14 2011 21:06 bubblegumbo wrote:
You are stupid if you think that a professional gamer, being required to be professional is considered arbitrary. One day when you get a job that means shit and puts you in the scrutiny of others perhaps you'll understand. Act like a kid and you'll be treated like a kid, especially when it's a job.
edit: misread and agree
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You should behave according to the customs and cultures of the country or competition your participating in. No exceptions.
This is the most prestigious league in the entire world, nobody wants an MLG as bad as they want a GSL, and to watch players throw away matches, that me as a fan and the company as a governing body PAYED to see happen, is complete and utter horseshit.
he deserves everything he got and he should learn to pull his fucking head in.
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On December 14 2011 21:14 skyrunner wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:12 Velr wrote:
And whats up with the people acting up for punishing a player that is willingly dropping a televised game, he is paid for to play in, in a very obvious way.
He does not want to play?
Well do some all-in cannon rush / Proxigate whatever (you might even end up winning ^^). No one would care, but prope rushng is just not acceptable... Or just start the game and then leave his PC... What is the difference?
Effort. A cannon rush takes effort. Proxy 2 gate takes effort.
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On December 14 2011 21:09 Orcasgt24 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:07 zeru wrote:On December 14 2011 21:05 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 21:03 Eury wrote:
It is bad when you wish for KeSPA back. Hopefully if the BW stars switches over it would most likely mean that GOMTV's monopoly in Korea has ended, if they don't, well, SC2 will die in Korea and GSL with it. Good riddance to the latter. what? if it was Kespa, Naniwa would've been banned for life. It's more about that Kespa has the rules written down and don't keep making things up for everything, which this thread is about. If there had been rules which naniwa broke i dont think anyone would actually be on naniwas side of what he did. GOM's rules are written down. I would really like it if the whole book was posted online in english but the rules are readily availible to players. Its not like they enter these events assuming rules will be made up.
GOM's rule is pretty much if we don't like you we can ban you. It is a very convenient and unfair rule to have.
Btw these things don't get decided by some moral or honor, they get decided by whether the netizens trows a hissy fit or not and the bandwagon gets started.
Coca threw games that actually mattered and he should had been punished for it, but the reason why Slayers punished him so harshly was because they were afraid if they didn't punish him harsh enough netizens would be up in arms over it, and it might had actually threaten the whole organization. They did it out of fear so they overreacted just to be safe.
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One thing delivers a, most likely short, game.
The other is just wasting time of everyone and on top of that basically saying fuck you to all the viewers and his opponent?
If you don't see the diffrence i can't help you.
You don't see football clubs that our allready out of the championship kicking the ball willingly in their own goal or just sit at the sidelines for 90 minutes just because they allready lost.
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On December 14 2011 21:14 gregnog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:06 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 21:05 gregnog wrote:On December 14 2011 21:00 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 20:52 gregnog wrote:
Koreans need to get rid of that medieval mentality with all that bull shit "honor and pride". Its all fake. All of it.
Fire your tournament organizer for having such a terrible format, not Naniwa.
Next season GOM is going to introduce interviews with the game loser I bet, and if you dip out on the interview you will be banned. since when is honor and pride a medieval mentality. where do you live? A fake game with the illusion of real competition is what the Koreans want. But then they pretend its about fans/pride/honor. Where was Nesteas honor when he purposefully gave MVP the win at Blizzcon finals? That game had a 25k difference in 1st and 2nd place. (Most likely split the difference...) Naniwas was literally meaningless. Please do not make the naive assumption that skipping meaningless games detract from your pride and honor. That is what I am getting at. every sports in the world is exactly the same, and they all receives heavy punishment as well if you pull any stunts like that. I guess all sports are all fake honor and pride then right? and seriously your accusation without proofs is not something a logical person would do. Where is your proof that Nestea purposely throw away the game? I'm not sure why I am even wasting my time responding to a conspiracist. No? I have heard that there is some soccer rule that has only been enforced 1 or 2 times. In the US there is no such rule, for any sport. It is actually standard strategy to not put in full effort for meaningless games. Conspiracy? I guess you weren't around when the Blizzcon Finals happened. It is pretty well known. Them being on the same team and all...
uh, what? teams do get penalized and fined if they field too weak of a team, even if they have no chance of moving on.
Here's a recent example, there's is a ton of them out there. When you are a professional athletes, you are expected to play to win. You can say good bye to your career if you purposely give up during middle of a game
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1351123/Premier-League-fine-Blackpool-25-000-fielding-weakened-Aston-Villa.html
And wtf are you talking about, you don't even know you're conspiring a bunch of crazy theories? I was there during the Blizzcon finals, sorry, you are the minority that actually believed it was staged.
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Coca hasn't been disqualified . Slayers said that he had to leave the house and change is attitude but GOM never kicked him out of code S , he did it by him self . Naniwa has been kicked , not fair in that regard , but I agree that Naniwa has done something really stupid . However , this doesn't earn to be kicked of code S ...
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On December 14 2011 21:07 Soma.bokforlag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:03 Orcasgt24 wrote:On December 14 2011 20:12 Soma.bokforlag wrote:
Now gom have invented a rule Are you sure they just randomly "invented" this rule? How do you know that it hasn't been in place since GOM's BW days? interpreted is maybe a better word, invented in the sense that noone knew that you could play a game in a fashion that was unsatisfactory in the eyes of gom. if korean netizens would have gone ballistic and raged about dancing or manner mules gom would surely have interpreted the rules in this way earlier.
Maybe, but think about why the rule there in the first place? I mean let's say someone writes "fuck you" with drones for taunting purposes. What is the rule for that? Is that written specifically for that? What constitutes excessive mad manner? (one of the rule of GOMtv, afaik). Of course, a mule is a mild example as one could see that has least likely chance of offending someone. (These rules are generally made so it does not offend the viewers, or damages the minds of the players). What Naniwa did was show bad sportsmanship. I think the fact GOM is interpreting the rule this way is justified. However, the punishment Naniwa received was way too harsh. Maybe a warning or a small fine would been suffice.
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Nope, GOMTV continues to demonstrate what can be argued as not favoritism, but definitely an easier ride for foreigners to the various seeding of Code A and Code S.
Compare that to the nightmarish journey of your everyday Korean gamer, just trying to get noticed.
Guys don't argue semantics about professionalism. Picture yourself on your last day on the job. Did you perform to your fullest or did you purposefully do something that you knew was not appropriate?
Naniwa doing what he did - caught us off guard, but in the future we'll be watching him with renewed interest. What will he do this time? Volatility is frightening and in fact it was his shrewdest move yet. Not everyone can be a bad boy. Only people such as Naniwa can.
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Well, there might not be a written rule about what naniwa did but let's be honest, it's pretty obvious that what he did was wrong.
Why didn't he just told the officials that he wanted to forfeit the last game? Either because they didn't or wouldn't allow him to. Yet he went ahead and threw the game anyway (his probe rush had virtually zero possibility to win, he wanted the audience to know that he was throwing it). This is a clear slap in the face of the tourney. Gom really has no choice but to punish him for it.
Wethever taking away his code-S spot is the right punishment is another question. It certainly is harsh however given that it was a gift trough mlg and not a spot earned trough code-A i think it is certainly within Goms rights.
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I think gom's descision is wise..
All else it will grow like this to everygame
![[image loading]](http://static.esportsea.com/global/images/content_images/6881.jpg)
and then later on players think so freely that this happens
![[image loading]](http://th05.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2011/325/d/7/i_love_you_naniwa_by_ryuulavitz-d4gw4dh.jpg)
doesn't mlg have a rule to not talk in game and no swearing?
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Yes, I definitely agree. Throwing around random invites to people for whatever reason always seemed really unprofessional to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see SaSe in Code A, but he should have earned his place there, just like everyone else. It de-legitimizes their performance in the tournament. And now NaNiwa who earned his Code S spot at Providence got banned for breaking no rules and it randomly goes to Sen because he's a fan favourite or something? This all just reeks unprofessionalism.
If NaNi doesn't get his Code S place when he's allowed to play in GSL again...
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I don't get why so many don't understand the decision. There are big cultural differences. Koreans value effort and honor, not only money, and it's strange for a foreigner not to adapt these values so not to offend. This is true for many countries. Grow up, adapt to the environment and rules, and regardless of all that, don't throw a game on purpose in a live televised paid tournament, regardless of what you think of the match. When accepting the invite, Naniwa accepted to play against all his opponents.
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GOM doesn't just make arbitrary rules:
- Choya was banned from the GSTL for playing rock-scissors-paper on the Blizzard ladder.
- Rain was banned from GSL for 2 seasons.
- Coca forfeited his Code S spot.
The punishment was harsh, yes, but it shows that GOM will not tolerate poor behaviour.
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Proberushing = Willingly dropping a game in one of the most obvious ways possible.
If that is breaking no rules then that rule should be written in fast. Just because there is no explicit article against probe rushing does not mean that you can't use other rules to punish such bullshit.
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On December 14 2011 21:21 shabby wrote:
I don't get why so many don't understand the decision. There are big cultural differences. Koreans value effort and honor, not only money, and it's strange for a foreigner not to adapt these values so not to offend. This is true for many countries. Grow up, adapt to the environment and rules, and regardless of all that, don't throw a game on purpose in a live televised paid tournament, regardless of what you think of the match. When accepting the invite, Naniwa accepted to play against all his opponents.
Stop watching anime. Korea and Japan value honor at face value, just to keep up appearance. It is all a sham, and what happens in Korea gets dictated by netizens, not rules or honor, welcome to Korea.
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On December 14 2011 21:19 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:14 gregnog wrote:On December 14 2011 21:06 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 21:05 gregnog wrote:On December 14 2011 21:00 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 20:52 gregnog wrote:
Koreans need to get rid of that medieval mentality with all that bull shit "honor and pride". Its all fake. All of it.
Fire your tournament organizer for having such a terrible format, not Naniwa.
Next season GOM is going to introduce interviews with the game loser I bet, and if you dip out on the interview you will be banned. since when is honor and pride a medieval mentality. where do you live? A fake game with the illusion of real competition is what the Koreans want. But then they pretend its about fans/pride/honor. Where was Nesteas honor when he purposefully gave MVP the win at Blizzcon finals? That game had a 25k difference in 1st and 2nd place. (Most likely split the difference...) Naniwas was literally meaningless. Please do not make the naive assumption that skipping meaningless games detract from your pride and honor. That is what I am getting at. every sports in the world is exactly the same, and they all receives heavy punishment as well if you pull any stunts like that. I guess all sports are all fake honor and pride then right? and seriously your accusation without proofs is not something a logical person would do. Where is your proof that Nestea purposely throw away the game? I'm not sure why I am even wasting my time responding to a conspiracist. No? I have heard that there is some soccer rule that has only been enforced 1 or 2 times. In the US there is no such rule, for any sport. It is actually standard strategy to not put in full effort for meaningless games. Conspiracy? I guess you weren't around when the Blizzcon Finals happened. It is pretty well known. Them being on the same team and all... uh, what? teams do get penalized and fined if they field too weak of a team, even if they have no chance of moving on. Here's a recent example, there's is a ton of them out there. When you are a professional athletes, you are expected to play to win. You can say good bye to your career if you purposely give up during middle of a game http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1351123/Premier-League-fine-Blackpool-25-000-fielding-weakened-Aston-Villa.htmlAnd wtf are you talking about, you don't even know you're conspiring a bunch of crazy theories? I was there during the Blizzcon finals, sorry, you are the minority that actually believed it was staged.
Ya, I mentioned soccer in my post that you quoted. Did you not see it?
You conveniently skip where I let you know that no US sport has any rule against not trying.
Do you even play Starcraft 2? Nah you obviously don't.
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I don't think that it's arbitrary rule making, it's more the organization reserving the right to pass judgement on its participants for conduct that they consider detrimental to the organization's credibility and image. To me I don't think a more extensive rule set needs to be written up, I think people need to stop thinking in terms of "what can I get away with" and more in terms of "If I just do what I'm supposed to then the rules, whether 5 or 500, are a moot point."
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On December 14 2011 21:21 Azzur wrote:
GOM doesn't just make arbitrary rules:
- Choya was banned from the GSTL for playing rock-scissors-paper on the Blizzard ladder.
- Rain was banned from GSL for 2 seasons.
- Coca forfeited his Code S spot.
The punishment was harsh, yes, but it shows that GOM will not tolerate poor behaviour.
Coca was not forced to do it.
However, yeah, not turning up for group selection, banned for 2 seasons seem so extreme. I think the rules GOM has is not illogical however, the punishments they give out never seem to fit the crime.
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EPT
