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On December 15 2011 06:59 windsupernova wrote:
Without Goms "Aribitrary" rules no foreigner would have gotten Code A\S invites.
No they are not a problem. The problem is people being too butthurt when they don't like the rules
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Ok, does it say anywhere in the rules that you can't kill your opponent? I mean, literally kill them. Because if it doesn't the fuck the fact that it screws with normal human behaviour and common sense, go ahead and do.
Gom did the right thing. Please, get over yourselves.
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On December 15 2011 07:00 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:17 StarStruck wrote:On December 15 2011 05:12 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession. I literally LOL when i read all these posts about how the game was "meaningless". THis was a hyped match with tons of viewers. The content that could have been derived from a well played fourth match is FAR from meaningless. The only reasonable arguments that can be made about the Naniwa issue are about the severity of the punishment. Naniwa messed up and GOM is within their rights to punish him. How they went about it seemed severe to me but then I cant think of an enforcable alternative I like. That's the thing. Sports are self-serving and the entertainment factor is only the effect. Not the cause. The players are the agents. Your perspective is different from the player like in Johan's case. He only wants to win. Nothing more; nothing less. Lost opportunity, well tough. To him, the game was meaningless and he decided not to show up like countless other players who don't want to be in those type of situations. Your opinion means nothing to the player. If you get entertainment out of it great. If not tough luck. They aren't there for you. They are there for themselves first and foremost. On December 15 2011 05:07 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
they're not arbitrarily *making up* rules - they're arbitrarily *interpreting* rules that are conveniently vague Exactly. It's a pragmatic problem.It's a terrible rule and it should be re-written promptly before any player and audience member can abuse it again. The player's association should be downright dumbfounded that such a rule exists in that vague form. This is exactly the childish perspective that needs to be done away with. Thank you for making my point.
I would like to know how that is a childish perspective, in your normal life do you get punished for rules that dont exist then take the punishment?
It's funny to see all the people arguing that this harsh of a punishment was justified for something so trivial.
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On December 14 2011 20:12 Soma.bokforlag wrote:
I think we all were happy when GOM decided to get more foreigners into GSL, with the alotted "4 spots" that was presented before haypro, ret, moonglade and huk got their initial invites. However, there were always questionmarks, how was these players decided? Why werent other players with more skill chosen? But who cared, foreigners were playing against koreans in korea and it was all very exciting!
Since then alot of things have happened though, alot of foreigners go to korea and are seeded in code a based on nothing at all, others come 15th in MLG and then go 2-3 months later.. since there seems to be no agreement of wich GSL you go to when doing well at MLG. Now most lately Morrow gets a free spot based on "his accomplishments in SC2" or something like that. We were many that were glad when MLG and GSL started cooperationg, it seemed that all this randomness would end and that the players getting seeds would be deserving of them. This didn't happen. We are still in the seat we were a year ago and GSL seems less and less professional and more and more desperate to get foreigners. Alot of players go there, compete in code a, qualify for next months tournament and then leave.. it seems like theres no planning from GSL at all.
Now gom have invented a rule that lets them kick out Naniwa because they say he only wants money, and is not professional. This is completely based on the korean netizens reactions, and has nothing to do with what happened in the game. If korean players and netizens would have laughed at it as a stupid thing to do, gom wouldnt have taken Naniwas code-s spot away from him. In other words, noone knew the ruling before the reaction from the korean netizens.. this is the definition of being unprofessional. Inventing rules/interpreting them as wanted to comply to what some fans want.
More skill, less arbitrary popularity contests. please.
PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE POST, NOT JUST THE PART ABOUT NANIWA
this kind of seems like a hate thread on GOMtv and how you think they're unprofessional because you have no idea what they do.
1) why weren't other players with more skill chosen? I dont think it's all based on skill when it comes to pickin foreigners in a fairly new tournament. They probably pick them based on fanbase, sc1 experience, and sc2 beta accomplishments. I do agree it was very exciting.
2) just because you dont know the process they use to seed players into code a doesnt meant its based on NOTHING. Almost every professional sc2 player wants to be in Korea playing in the GSL CODE S, but not all are able. Some dont have to skill, the determination, or the money/sponsorship. So some of them stay at home and work hard until they are either invited and seeded in code A/ code S or go through the open brackets themselves and EARN their own code A spot. The first part is easier , we all know the open brackets are insane. Some players can't handle living in korea and practicing 10 hrs a day, while others can't afford to stay long unless they qualify. Huk is an example of what it takes to stay in korea and compete in the GSL. He respects the game, the players, the team, the coaches, and mostly himself. He lives with and tries to communicate with his teammates and are now good friends with them. He practices hard everyday and because he's such good friends with housemates, they probably help him out a ton. Players who arent as friendly or close probably wont get much help.
3) They didnt JUST invent the rule for Naniwa, are you kidding me? How can you say that they only punished Naniwa because Korean netizens and players reacted to it? This isnt a community where people dont speak up about how they feel, and its not why they punished him. This is a professional thing to do because he's being used as an example; when you do dumb things, you get punished for it. Example, NFL, players get fined for unsportsmanlike conduct because they are being used as an example.
and for your last sentence, better players? you just think the players you watch and love are better than the ones at GSL, which is probably untrue and biased. You also probably dont know what biased means.
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On December 15 2011 07:04 Phizix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:00 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 05:17 StarStruck wrote:On December 15 2011 05:12 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession. I literally LOL when i read all these posts about how the game was "meaningless". THis was a hyped match with tons of viewers. The content that could have been derived from a well played fourth match is FAR from meaningless. The only reasonable arguments that can be made about the Naniwa issue are about the severity of the punishment. Naniwa messed up and GOM is within their rights to punish him. How they went about it seemed severe to me but then I cant think of an enforcable alternative I like. That's the thing. Sports are self-serving and the entertainment factor is only the effect. Not the cause. The players are the agents. Your perspective is different from the player like in Johan's case. He only wants to win. Nothing more; nothing less. Lost opportunity, well tough. To him, the game was meaningless and he decided not to show up like countless other players who don't want to be in those type of situations. Your opinion means nothing to the player. If you get entertainment out of it great. If not tough luck. They aren't there for you. They are there for themselves first and foremost. On December 15 2011 05:07 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
they're not arbitrarily *making up* rules - they're arbitrarily *interpreting* rules that are conveniently vague Exactly. It's a pragmatic problem.It's a terrible rule and it should be re-written promptly before any player and audience member can abuse it again. The player's association should be downright dumbfounded that such a rule exists in that vague form. This is exactly the childish perspective that needs to be done away with. Thank you for making my point. I would like to know how that is a childish perspective, in your normal life do you get punished for rules that dont exist then take the punishment? It's funny to see all the people arguing that this harsh of a punishment was justified for something so trivial.
He plays to win and yet forfeits games? And his perspective is childish; he doesn't care about the viewers, the tournament, or the other player, the only reason he makes money from this game is because of the viewers, he shouldn't forget that.
And he already has a bad reputation, so he should be a lot more careful. When he trash talks every player and every tournament one of them is bound to put their foot down eventually.
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Taug I think nailed it better than anyone else has.
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what about when a professional football team rests its starters at the end of the season? Say the team has clinch a 1st round bye in the playoffs or has no shot of even making the playoffs? Does the Commissioner ban the team from the next season of competition? Hell no. This is bullshit. I don't agree with what Naniwa did, but the game was as meaningless as a football game is in the above situations. Sure, some fans aren't going to like it, but he had the right to do what he did and people need to chill. You don't have to like it. GOM doesn't have to like it. Hell, I don't like the way Naniwa carries himself at times, but we ought not to force him to act like some mindless robot that just plays out games because they are scheduled and people have paid for tickets.
Is GOM within their legal right to do what they did? Most certainly, but I will restate that it's bullshit. Sure, the GSL is in Korea and Koreans apparently have some altered sense of right/wrong, but they are trying to enforce some kind of conformity on the players that I don't agree with. If they want foreigners to play, then they ought to be willing to accept foreigners as foreigners. StarCraft does not equal Korea. It may have the biggest market, it may have the history, but the days of a StarCraft market based solely in Korea are gone and I believe that one day the spotlight will land on another part of the world. If GOM and others want the e-sports scene to continue to blossom, then they ought to rethink their stance. As a "foreigner," I will favor foreign tournaments over the GSL if this trend continues. The world changes, keep up or become obsolete. That and change the format of the tournament so something like this doesn't happen to begin with.
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On December 15 2011 07:24 CaptainAmerica wrote:
what about when a professional football team rests its starters at the end of the season? Say the team has clinch a 1st round bye in the playoffs or has no shot of even making the playoffs? Does the Commissioner ban the team from the next season of competition? Hell no. This is bullshit. I don't agree with what Naniwa did, but the game was as meaningless as a football game is in the above situations. Sure, some fans aren't going to like it, but he had the right to do what he did and people need to chill. You don't have to like it. GOM doesn't have to like it. Hell, I don't like the way Naniwa carries himself at times, but we ought not to force him to act like some mindless robot that just plays out games because they are scheduled and people have paid for tickets.
Is GOM within their legal right to do what they did? Most certainly, but I will restate that it's bullshit. Sure, the GSL is in Korea and Koreans apparently have some altered sense of right/wrong, but they are trying to enforce some kind of conformity on the players that I don't agree with. If they want foreigners to play, then they ought to be willing to accept foreigners as foreigners. StarCraft does not equal Korea. It may have the biggest market, it may have the history, but the days of a StarCraft market based solely in Korea are gone and I believe that one day the spotlight will land on another part of the world. If GOM and others want the e-sports scene to continue to blossom, then they ought to rethink their stance. As a "foreigner," I will favor foreign tournaments over the GSL if this trend continues. The world changes, keep up or become obsolete. That and change the format of the tournament so something like this doesn't happen to begin with.
LOL, you probably didnt read Naniwa's apology yet. Also if you're goin to relate this to football, you should pretend this is a playoff game. It's a best of the best players tournament, so i think you should compare this to a playoff game. If YOUR team, lets say its the Steelers, if they are losing by 20-30 pts, should they give up? Should they just hand the ball over to the other team and let them run for the touchdown? NAH, they play their balls out cause they're in the playsoffs while 20+ other teams are at home wishing they were in that spot. THE PLAYOFFS which they worked their ass off in the LAST 17 weeks to get to.
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On December 15 2011 07:04 Phizix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:00 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 05:17 StarStruck wrote:On December 15 2011 05:12 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession. I literally LOL when i read all these posts about how the game was "meaningless". THis was a hyped match with tons of viewers. The content that could have been derived from a well played fourth match is FAR from meaningless. The only reasonable arguments that can be made about the Naniwa issue are about the severity of the punishment. Naniwa messed up and GOM is within their rights to punish him. How they went about it seemed severe to me but then I cant think of an enforcable alternative I like. That's the thing. Sports are self-serving and the entertainment factor is only the effect. Not the cause. The players are the agents. Your perspective is different from the player like in Johan's case. He only wants to win. Nothing more; nothing less. Lost opportunity, well tough. To him, the game was meaningless and he decided not to show up like countless other players who don't want to be in those type of situations. Your opinion means nothing to the player. If you get entertainment out of it great. If not tough luck. They aren't there for you. They are there for themselves first and foremost. On December 15 2011 05:07 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
they're not arbitrarily *making up* rules - they're arbitrarily *interpreting* rules that are conveniently vague Exactly. It's a pragmatic problem.It's a terrible rule and it should be re-written promptly before any player and audience member can abuse it again. The player's association should be downright dumbfounded that such a rule exists in that vague form. This is exactly the childish perspective that needs to be done away with. Thank you for making my point. I would like to know how that is a childish perspective, in your normal life do you get punished for rules that dont exist then take the punishment? It's funny to see all the people arguing that this harsh of a punishment was justified for something so trivial.
Yes, if i start acting like a douchebag in a restaurant they have the right to kick me out if they want. And I didn't sign any contract with the restaurant.
Millions of examples of unwritten rules just think
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On December 15 2011 07:36 Taug wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:24 CaptainAmerica wrote:
what about when a professional football team rests its starters at the end of the season? Say the team has clinch a 1st round bye in the playoffs or has no shot of even making the playoffs? Does the Commissioner ban the team from the next season of competition? Hell no. This is bullshit. I don't agree with what Naniwa did, but the game was as meaningless as a football game is in the above situations. Sure, some fans aren't going to like it, but he had the right to do what he did and people need to chill. You don't have to like it. GOM doesn't have to like it. Hell, I don't like the way Naniwa carries himself at times, but we ought not to force him to act like some mindless robot that just plays out games because they are scheduled and people have paid for tickets.
Is GOM within their legal right to do what they did? Most certainly, but I will restate that it's bullshit. Sure, the GSL is in Korea and Koreans apparently have some altered sense of right/wrong, but they are trying to enforce some kind of conformity on the players that I don't agree with. If they want foreigners to play, then they ought to be willing to accept foreigners as foreigners. StarCraft does not equal Korea. It may have the biggest market, it may have the history, but the days of a StarCraft market based solely in Korea are gone and I believe that one day the spotlight will land on another part of the world. If GOM and others want the e-sports scene to continue to blossom, then they ought to rethink their stance. As a "foreigner," I will favor foreign tournaments over the GSL if this trend continues. The world changes, keep up or become obsolete. That and change the format of the tournament so something like this doesn't happen to begin with. LOL, you probably didnt read Naniwa's apology yet. Also if you're goin to relate this to football, you should pretend this is a playoff game. It's a best of the best players tournament, so i think you should compare this to a playoff game. If YOUR team, lets say its the Steelers, if they are losing by 20-30 pts, should they give up? Should they just hand the ball over to the other team and let them run for the touchdown? NAH, they play their balls out cause they're in the playsoffs while 20+ other teams are at home wishing they were in that spot. THE PLAYOFFS which they worked their ass off in the LAST 17 weeks to get to.
Happens all the time in running in the olympics.
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On December 15 2011 07:39 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:04 Phizix wrote:On December 15 2011 07:00 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 05:17 StarStruck wrote:On December 15 2011 05:12 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession. I literally LOL when i read all these posts about how the game was "meaningless". THis was a hyped match with tons of viewers. The content that could have been derived from a well played fourth match is FAR from meaningless. The only reasonable arguments that can be made about the Naniwa issue are about the severity of the punishment. Naniwa messed up and GOM is within their rights to punish him. How they went about it seemed severe to me but then I cant think of an enforcable alternative I like. That's the thing. Sports are self-serving and the entertainment factor is only the effect. Not the cause. The players are the agents. Your perspective is different from the player like in Johan's case. He only wants to win. Nothing more; nothing less. Lost opportunity, well tough. To him, the game was meaningless and he decided not to show up like countless other players who don't want to be in those type of situations. Your opinion means nothing to the player. If you get entertainment out of it great. If not tough luck. They aren't there for you. They are there for themselves first and foremost. On December 15 2011 05:07 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
they're not arbitrarily *making up* rules - they're arbitrarily *interpreting* rules that are conveniently vague Exactly. It's a pragmatic problem.It's a terrible rule and it should be re-written promptly before any player and audience member can abuse it again. The player's association should be downright dumbfounded that such a rule exists in that vague form. This is exactly the childish perspective that needs to be done away with. Thank you for making my point. I would like to know how that is a childish perspective, in your normal life do you get punished for rules that dont exist then take the punishment? It's funny to see all the people arguing that this harsh of a punishment was justified for something so trivial. Yes, if i start acting like a douchebag in a restaurant they have the right to kick me out if they want. And I didn't sign any contract with the restaurant. Millions of examples of unwritten rules just think
the reason they have the right to kick you out is because it has been explicitly deemed part of a property right. it's not unwritten.
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The only sport you can directly compare this to is Association Football, because it too has group stage matches where games can be very irrelevant: FIFA World Cup. If you think for one moment two national teams that are 0-2-0 in the group stage aren't going to give it their all regardless of the implications of the match, you're silly. There are people who will get injured in these matches but who will nonetheless give it their all regardless of the minimal fruits of victory. It's a pride thing and it has a direct comparison to the type of organization the GSL wants to be.
Naniwa was representing the foreign community, his team and the spirit of Sweden. He was facing off against an individual whom people have regarded as either the very best Zerg player in the world or an individual amongst its top flight. Instead of being mature, he instead went into a country that takes the spirit of competition serious and made one more bad decision in a long line of them. I can only imagine that last part probably plays a significant, though unmentioned role in the GSL's decision.
What Naniwa did was reason enough but let's be honest: Naniwa isn't a good individual. He's immature, he's rude and he's very selfish. People don't shuffle from one team to the next with such alarming frequency for no reason and the comments from former teammates who are usually reserved individuals don't just come up without cause. Naniwa needs to learn a valuable lesson here: the silliness and immaturity needs to stop. Each recurring incident will not be judged solely on its merits, but instead will be added to the long list of grievances perceived by the community as a whole. You cannot go through life being a shithead and not expect people to latch onto every bad thing you do, regardless of significance.
That time for Naniwa is now. People are tired of him, the organizations are tired of him and it's quite obvious from listening to State of the Game and to the various casters that when they say they're tired of certain players that they will soon out as being needed to be taken care of, they're speaking of Naniwa. More power to them.
Excellent decision, excellent work. To the people who are saying they won't purchase a GSL subscription, I call bullshit. It's so easy to write something on the internet and for a bunch of people with less than 20 or 30 posts to flood a message board with that kind of speech is inappropriate. The numbers will speak for themselves. If you're going to post about how you're not purchasing something, you should do it with a little more tact than the outright disdain and anger filled with bombastic language you are doing it with.
GSL and GomTV have done so much for StarCraft 2 and have provided the best production and tournament for a year; they deserve a little more than outright derision from such fairweather fans.
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On December 15 2011 07:56 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:39 windsupernova wrote:On December 15 2011 07:04 Phizix wrote:On December 15 2011 07:00 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 05:17 StarStruck wrote:On December 15 2011 05:12 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession. I literally LOL when i read all these posts about how the game was "meaningless". THis was a hyped match with tons of viewers. The content that could have been derived from a well played fourth match is FAR from meaningless. The only reasonable arguments that can be made about the Naniwa issue are about the severity of the punishment. Naniwa messed up and GOM is within their rights to punish him. How they went about it seemed severe to me but then I cant think of an enforcable alternative I like. That's the thing. Sports are self-serving and the entertainment factor is only the effect. Not the cause. The players are the agents. Your perspective is different from the player like in Johan's case. He only wants to win. Nothing more; nothing less. Lost opportunity, well tough. To him, the game was meaningless and he decided not to show up like countless other players who don't want to be in those type of situations. Your opinion means nothing to the player. If you get entertainment out of it great. If not tough luck. They aren't there for you. They are there for themselves first and foremost. On December 15 2011 05:07 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
they're not arbitrarily *making up* rules - they're arbitrarily *interpreting* rules that are conveniently vague Exactly. It's a pragmatic problem.It's a terrible rule and it should be re-written promptly before any player and audience member can abuse it again. The player's association should be downright dumbfounded that such a rule exists in that vague form. This is exactly the childish perspective that needs to be done away with. Thank you for making my point. I would like to know how that is a childish perspective, in your normal life do you get punished for rules that dont exist then take the punishment? It's funny to see all the people arguing that this harsh of a punishment was justified for something so trivial. Yes, if i start acting like a douchebag in a restaurant they have the right to kick me out if they want. And I didn't sign any contract with the restaurant. Millions of examples of unwritten rules just think the reason they have the right to kick you out is because it has been explicitly deemed part of a property right. it's not unwritten.
GOM has a right to kick those they feel were rude.
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On December 15 2011 07:59 N1ghtshade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:56 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 07:39 windsupernova wrote:On December 15 2011 07:04 Phizix wrote:On December 15 2011 07:00 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 05:17 StarStruck wrote:On December 15 2011 05:12 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession. I literally LOL when i read all these posts about how the game was "meaningless". THis was a hyped match with tons of viewers. The content that could have been derived from a well played fourth match is FAR from meaningless. The only reasonable arguments that can be made about the Naniwa issue are about the severity of the punishment. Naniwa messed up and GOM is within their rights to punish him. How they went about it seemed severe to me but then I cant think of an enforcable alternative I like. That's the thing. Sports are self-serving and the entertainment factor is only the effect. Not the cause. The players are the agents. Your perspective is different from the player like in Johan's case. He only wants to win. Nothing more; nothing less. Lost opportunity, well tough. To him, the game was meaningless and he decided not to show up like countless other players who don't want to be in those type of situations. Your opinion means nothing to the player. If you get entertainment out of it great. If not tough luck. They aren't there for you. They are there for themselves first and foremost. On December 15 2011 05:07 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
they're not arbitrarily *making up* rules - they're arbitrarily *interpreting* rules that are conveniently vague Exactly. It's a pragmatic problem.It's a terrible rule and it should be re-written promptly before any player and audience member can abuse it again. The player's association should be downright dumbfounded that such a rule exists in that vague form. This is exactly the childish perspective that needs to be done away with. Thank you for making my point. I would like to know how that is a childish perspective, in your normal life do you get punished for rules that dont exist then take the punishment? It's funny to see all the people arguing that this harsh of a punishment was justified for something so trivial. Yes, if i start acting like a douchebag in a restaurant they have the right to kick me out if they want. And I didn't sign any contract with the restaurant. Millions of examples of unwritten rules just think the reason they have the right to kick you out is because it has been explicitly deemed part of a property right. it's not unwritten. GOM has a right to kick those they feel were rude.
not from any document i've seen
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Well the thing is Naniwa wasn't kicked or banned.
GOM was going to give him a invitation to join Code S, not for his achievements.
The parallel would be if I was going to have a party, and was going to invite you, but then decided I didn't want to invite you.
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As for those parsing language and combing over previous announcements in an effort to pigeon-hole GomTV into looking guilty of stealing a Code S Spot, I can only say they'll do what they've been doing for the last 72 hours. Looking for the next excuse to get their favored player out of something that has nothing to do with what they think it does. If it isn't the poor translation handed down last evening, or how an admin misinformed him of cross positions, it's going to be something you people are going to attempt to justify his behavior with--or to allow him to continue on his disgusting path.
Everyone is guilty except him. Except, they're not. Organizations make mistakes. Leagues make mistakes. The GSL makes mistakes. The difference is, when they do it, they don't say "fuck you" and "joke tournament". They handle themselves with the tact that is required of such an organization. Naniwa doesn't. And it's about time you realized that just because he didn't break a specific rule, doesn't mean he gets to continue being a shithead. Nothing more need be said than that. He has repeatedly acted in an inappropriate manner and he is getting punished. Not in the future, right now.
You need to get over it and start telling your favored player to shape up. There doesn't need to be any other words than, "Naniwa acted poorly. He will not be in GSL Code S." You can connect the dots on how that works in whatever manner you want. Loss of spot or never being invited. Everyone wants to focus on the latter when the former is the only thing that matters.
He got what he deserved.
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I feel like the debate in this thread can never be even-handed and non-stilted, merely be the fact that the title of the post is already a really leading question -- it doesn't ask whether GOM's rules are arbitrary, but instead asserts they are arbitrary, and then asks if it is problematic.
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On December 15 2011 08:09 Desert Fox wrote:
As for those parsing language and combing over previous announcements in an effort to pigeon-hole GomTV into looking guilty of stealing a Code S Spot, I can only say they'll do what they've been doing for the last 72 hours. Looking for the next excuse to get their favored player out of something that has nothing to do with what they think it does. If it isn't the poor translation handed down last evening, or how an admin misinformed him of cross positions, it's going to be something you people are going to attempt to justify his behavior with--or to allow him to continue on his disgusting path.
Everyone is guilty except him. Except, they're not. Organizations make mistakes. Leagues make mistakes. The GSL makes mistakes. The difference is, when they do it, they don't say "fuck you" and "joke tournament". They handle themselves with the tact that is required of such an organization. Naniwa doesn't. And it's about time you realized that just because he didn't break a specific rule, doesn't mean he gets to continue being a shithead. Nothing more need be said than that. He has repeatedly acted in an inappropriate manner and he is getting punished. Not in the future, right now.
You need to get over it and start telling your favored player to shape up. There doesn't need to be any other words than, "Naniwa acted poorly. He will not be in GSL Code S." You can connect the dots on how that works in whatever manner you want. Loss of spot or never being invited. Everyone wants to focus on the latter when the former is the only thing that matters.
He got what he deserved.
Chorus of fanbois: BUT DESERTFOX THERE WERE NO WRITTEN RULES ABOUT PROBE RUSHING!1!
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On December 15 2011 08:09 Desert Fox wrote:
As for those parsing language and combing over previous announcements in an effort to pigeon-hole GomTV into looking guilty of stealing a Code S Spot, I can only say they'll do what they've been doing for the last 72 hours. Looking for the next excuse to get their favored player out of something that has nothing to do with what they think it does. If it isn't the poor translation handed down last evening, or how an admin misinformed him of cross positions, it's going to be something you people are going to attempt to justify his behavior with--or to allow him to continue on his disgusting path.
Everyone is guilty except him. Except, they're not. Organizations make mistakes. Leagues make mistakes. The GSL makes mistakes. The difference is, when they do it, they don't say "fuck you" and "joke tournament". They handle themselves with the tact that is required of such an organization. Naniwa doesn't. And it's about time you realized that just because he didn't break a specific rule, doesn't mean he gets to continue being a shithead. Nothing more need be said than that. He has repeatedly acted in an inappropriate manner and he is getting punished. Not in the future, right now.
You need to get over it and start telling your favored player to shape up. There doesn't need to be any other words than, "Naniwa acted poorly. He will not be in GSL Code S." You can connect the dots on how that works in whatever manner you want. Loss of spot or never being invited. Everyone wants to focus on the latter when the former is the only thing that matters.
He got what he deserved.
this is largely a strawman. i've seen very few people defending naniwa, although a few have done so cogently. i myself know next to nothing about him, and what i know isn't good. what i do know is that there's a lot of abuse of discretion in esports, and a lot of taking advantage of kids and young adults, and this situation is a great example of both of those. i'm much less concerned with naniwa than with gsl, and i think how gom conducts itself has much, much more bearing on the current and future state of esports than how naniwa conducts himself.
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On December 15 2011 08:16 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:09 Desert Fox wrote:
As for those parsing language and combing over previous announcements in an effort to pigeon-hole GomTV into looking guilty of stealing a Code S Spot, I can only say they'll do what they've been doing for the last 72 hours. Looking for the next excuse to get their favored player out of something that has nothing to do with what they think it does. If it isn't the poor translation handed down last evening, or how an admin misinformed him of cross positions, it's going to be something you people are going to attempt to justify his behavior with--or to allow him to continue on his disgusting path.
Everyone is guilty except him. Except, they're not. Organizations make mistakes. Leagues make mistakes. The GSL makes mistakes. The difference is, when they do it, they don't say "fuck you" and "joke tournament". They handle themselves with the tact that is required of such an organization. Naniwa doesn't. And it's about time you realized that just because he didn't break a specific rule, doesn't mean he gets to continue being a shithead. Nothing more need be said than that. He has repeatedly acted in an inappropriate manner and he is getting punished. Not in the future, right now.
You need to get over it and start telling your favored player to shape up. There doesn't need to be any other words than, "Naniwa acted poorly. He will not be in GSL Code S." You can connect the dots on how that works in whatever manner you want. Loss of spot or never being invited. Everyone wants to focus on the latter when the former is the only thing that matters.
He got what he deserved. this is largely a strawman. i've seen very few people defending naniwa, although a few have done so cogently. i myself know next to nothing about him, and what i know isn't good. what i do know is that there's a lot of abuse of discretion in esports, and a lot of taking advantage of kids and young adults, and this situation is a great example of both of those. i'm much less concerned with naniwa than with gsl, and i think how gom conducts itself has much, much more bearing on the current and future state of esports than how naniwa conducts himself.
I agree with your statement that GOM's actions are more important here than Naniwa's.
Of course, I also think that GOM made a correct choice here, and that this action will very likely prevent future incidents, which benefits fans.
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