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mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
On December 14 2011 07:53 watrill wrote: Cba to read anything other than the OP. Koreans just mad that someone is not like them... super serious, polite and shit. Weird that they don't mind so much when IdrA, MC and others 'bm'. edit- nvm not going to bother. | ||
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Femari
United States2900 Posts
On December 14 2011 07:53 tlin wrote: "I wanted to show an entertaining match but HuK took it serious so I was caught off guard" - NesTea in the interview on stage. So he was fucking around and therefore threw the game. This isn't even an uncommon thing in showmatches. You don't have to take something serious to not be throwing the game buddy. Nestea was taking it casually. Doesn't mean he threw the game. That's terrible logic on your half. | ||
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Tjubatjubs
Sweden30 Posts
Why some are so quick to willing to end another persons career and dream for a thing like this. How some can take themselves so serious. Why they take Starcraft and E-sports so serious. Its a fucking video game yet it is still the livelihood of many, but not for you. I wonder whose job it is to judge the qualifications of the journalist who wrote that thisisgame article and slander him in public. Whose job it is to get thisisgame's staff members a fucking perspective on life and the worlds real problems. That is what I wonder about upon this high horse. I figure I should just climb down and shut up. I suggest that most of you should do too. | ||
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CeriseCherries
6170 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
IdrA fans are still at it too. Bizarre-o-world. | ||
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
If a basketball team, football team or any single player / teams gives up in the front of audience, puts its hand into the air and says "Well fuck it, i just lose from now on every game till the next season." I wonder how many would go out to watch them once again. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On December 14 2011 07:59 Darksoldierr wrote: Well its funny how ppl talking about esports going mainstream but defending naniwa and co ( stephano, etc ) at the same time. If a basketball team, football team or any single player sport / team sports team gives up in the front of audience, puts its hand into the air and says "Well fuck it, i just lose from now on every game till the next season." I wonder how many would go out to watch them once again. Um, you are aware this happens in real life sports all the time right? A lot of teams stop competing and have no fight back in them. That was the Toronto Maple Leafs for the longest time. ._. | ||
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
I hate the Boxer attitude of... play every game always give 100% to win... end up cheesing good players and playing shitty games. I much prefer what Naniwa does where i did not even bother to watch him after his 2nd loss cuz i knew he wouldn't be in the mindset but damn it those first 2 games were spark to genius... with silly mistake like the last attack not killing tech in the Lenock game, but games of the quality, better then what 90% of the pro gaming tosses every played ( even in practice ) if i have to go a lil fanboysh. BUT for some reason ppl still hate on his play-style cuz he would rather relay on well thought out builds and scouting rather then MC's " gonna do a warp prism sentry all in... crowd cheers for 10 minutes straight" since they can't simply understand why attacking vs a 3 abase muta switch at the perfect timing when you are going robo is not an "random all in". Keep hwating nani. | ||
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zuperketla
Norway212 Posts
Naniwa for the fucking win. | ||
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Agathon
France1505 Posts
On December 14 2011 07:06 etrensce wrote: You play in Korea, you play by their rules. You live up to their standards and follow their culture. That is just how it is. OK. For any tournament outside Korea, translators are forbidden. Our countries, our rules, our common language, our culture. That is just how it is. | ||
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Konaa
103 Posts
On December 13 2011 22:42 Darkkal wrote: Jesus fucking christ how much drama is this one game going to create? Ever since the savior fiasco, throwing games in korea is just something that you DO NOT DO. Period. | ||
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Ercster
United States603 Posts
On December 13 2011 23:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote: The people who bought the HD Pass knew the format of the tournament and knew that it allowed for inconsequential games. Without the incentive of winning a tournament, progamers should not try to win. No one is good enough to waste their best effort on inconsequential games, especially with how many major tournaments there are nowadays. Whatever the best strategy Naniwa had in mind for the game, he should not use it. What irrational people want and expect is for the players to put on a false show of a competition, where they both seem to be trying enough for viewers to successfully suspend their disbelief. Such people don't constitute a significant enough part of the community to justify this huge reaction. While I agree with what you said, I think he should have at least played a fun game with Nestea, like go dt pheonix or do a mothership rush. | ||
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XIJABERWALKIX
United States27 Posts
Naniwa doesn't get that doing the things he does (probe rushing, bad interviews, etc) actually hurt the credibility of e-sports. Other professional sports teams play time and time again in "pointless" games, however they play them and they play them with a decent amount of effort. Sure they might try harder if things were on the line, but they still want to win. It's about pride. Possibly even more than that, it's about credibility and heart of the game. I'm not asking Naniwa to show his best play, best builds, etc. But even if he would have done a 4 gate the majority of people wouldn't talk about this. A minimum amount of effort should be shown, even if it's not your best at least try to hide it! No one wants to put money into a league where everyone except the top teams/players start quitting because they have little to no chance of advancing. If that were the case, every single sporting format would be something like elimination style tournaments, there would be no "seasons." Leagues and especially teams need to start coaching players on proper professional etiquette if eSports is to continue to grow at the rate it has been. There are no excuses for things like that anymore. We're so close to the big leagues, it would be a shame for something like that to hold us back. To even play the other side, say Naniwa does really only care about winning money. It wouldn't even be in his best interest to play the way he did. For starters, its not like he's worried about wasting time as he'll probably watch some or the rest of the tournament (vs. going straight to practice or another event). Second, to play in that way is an obvious deterrent from endorsement/sponsorship prospects. No one would want to sponsor a player who doesn't play out their matches, even meaningless ones. While yes, maybe 1/8 (random percentage) of viewers would watch a game that doesn't matter, you are still getting viewers and sponsors are still getting air time. To add to that, I'm sure a lot of people tuned in anyways as he was playing Nestea. If he plays an extraordinary game and say crushes Nestea, people will still talk about that match. It will improve his public perception of how good of a player he is. While pros know that the match really doesn't mean anything, in the public eye a win over Nestea is a win over Nestea. Doing what he did, yes did get him media attention, but it's "combat-ex" media attention. Right now we are at the turning point of eSports. Starcraft in particular is starting to get into major news and it would be an extreme shame for a sponsor to see Naniwa's actions as a deterant from giving money because in fact "any player could do it." A player like Naniwa can afford to be like this because he is so talented, however if he did things slightly differently, (maybe played out the game, worked on his interview skills, etc.) he would be a legend without hurting sponsors/leagues. There is an unwritten law in all of sports that you try (or at least seem to) till the very end. eSports needs this if we are to continue to grow. There is absolutely no downside to playing out that match even if it's half-hearted. Other players may be able to get away with throwing games or not trying, but when the public eye is on you so finely, you have to know what's best for your career. It's like in business: even if today you don't make the money, if your actions make Starcraft appealing to more people, that means more money, more tournaments, and a greater chance to win later. If you do the opposite, that indirectly MAY lead to less sponsors, tournaments, less of a chance to win. Obviously this incident is a small drop in the bucket, but it is definitely something to address and not take lightly. Maybe formats should be changed, but atm they are they way they are and when you can't do anything about it for that tournament, you just deal with it in a respective manor. Sure you're angry, sure you're upset, but suck it up and realize that you're part of something bigger than yourself. Also if you want to argue the point that leagues should "just cancel" games that don't matter. You run the extreme risk of not having content for x amount of time you had planned out to have the match. I'd rather run a game that doesn't matter than to not have any content for an hour. Secondly you are making the argument that in any sport (pro sports included), teams should not play once they cannot advance. That would be less appealing to sponsors because it's another factor into how much time they will get on air. For example, baseball/basketball/any other sports team would just forfeit all of their games once they knew they wouldn't make playoffs. There would be 0 revenue from those games instead of any at all. Think about how much revenue NFL teams make on "games that don't matter." It's not just about the players anymore, eSports is too big for that. It's about quality control, something that leagues, teams, and players need to work on. | ||
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tlin
25 Posts
On December 14 2011 07:56 Femari wrote: You don't have to take something serious to not be throwing the game buddy. Nestea was taking it casually. Doesn't mean he threw the game. That's terrible logic on your half. Watch those games then and see for yourself. The main crux of the argument against Naniwa seems to be that he didn't play pretend with a weak all-in like everyone else (as Tyler pointed out) so he's "hurting" E-Sports. Meanwhile everyone complaining is just fine with a more concealed auto-loss build like HerO's cannons withour Air vs DRG. | ||
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
On December 14 2011 07:59 Darksoldierr wrote: Well its funny how ppl talking about esports going mainstream but defending naniwa and co ( stephano, etc ) at the same time. If a basketball team, football team or any single player / teams gives up in the front of audience, puts its hand into the air and says "Well fuck it, i just lose from now on every game till the next season." I wonder how many would go out to watch them once again. Thats right... when Frances losses an world cup final ( worth a few dozen millions ) one of there player has the decency to hit another with his head and swear at the crowd... damn it e-sports pro player your killing this 25k $ worth tournament with your unprofessional attitude. Honestly don't make comparison if you have to clue, i watched very few football games compared to the average guy but i know at least 2 or 3 matches when it was obvious one of the team was losing 0-x since they gave up due to the match being pointless/them having lost already. We have a most professional scene compared to Sports and OTHER Esport. Actually the only 2 games i can think of right of the bat where pros have a more civilized attitude would be BW ( where they were forced to by KESPA ) and maybe Quake. | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
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Earlobe
Canada9 Posts
Now, is Naniwa wrong for what he did? Of course he is. He was essentially saying "Fuck this tournament I don't even care any more". Which is immature and childish. But do I think everyone needs to take it easy and relax? Yes. Naniwa is human. Although according to his StarCraft II play almost seems like an android. But that's neither here nor there. The point is, Naniwa made a stupid decision on a game that, as he made clear "didn't mean anything" and was trying to prove a point that didn't need to be made. Naniwa and Nestea will lick their wounds, shake hands and forget all about this soon. And so should you. | ||
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Shinta)
United States1716 Posts
On December 14 2011 07:48 m0ck wrote: Interesting post. I think we tend to forget how bad things had gotten at the end of Idras stay in Korea. Seen from the outside, the hive-mindedness of S Korea can be somewhat terrifying. If you remember the flack and borderline bullying that was going on against Idra at the end of his time there, I really fear for naniwas future in the GSL and Korea. In any case, it's an interesting outsiders view into the way that social norms (and even more so, how transgressions are handled) play a much more important role in S Korean society than what we are used to in our western world. Not that we don't have then tendency ourselves. Players such as stephano, naniwa, incontrol and idra have all experienced a backlash from the community following what was perceived as errors of character. But there has also always been a tempering, a current among the community that took the opposite position. Even more so from the players. I have a hard time imagining the international players producing a similar outcry to what was seen today on twitter as a reaction to the game. Perhaps someone with an insiders view can help answer a question. Do you see the same tendency on the korean boards? We get a cherry-picked selection of posts to read, but really a similar selection could be taken from the threads here on TL that would either judge naniwas actions as of no consequence or deserving of disqualification from the GSL. Is the same thing going on on itg and playxp? A last point worth re-emphasizing is the fact that it's not really about throwing the game. It's the way that it's done. As has been pointed out, when Hero played DRG yesterday, he quite clearly didn't play to win. That was in a match that actually mattered for how the groups turned out. Similarly, try to google for the Korean participation in the WCG in Starcraft 1, and there'll be quite a few examples of thrown games. It's a consequence of the (imo flawed) bo1 group-format of the korean tournaments, and to ask of the players not to be influenced by how the individual matches relates to the tournament as a whole is impossible. Somehow, something in naniwas actions are reprehensible in themselves. Is it because nestea is the "elder" and not playing the game out is an affront to him? Maybe someone can give a korean perspective. When RainBOw plays on stream and uses mass ghost strategies that are not at all standard, but still wins, he STILL WINS. If he were to use a strat that is fun yet still wins if executed correctly, because he is confident in his ability to use this strat, it is not throwing the game. When NesTea tries something bold to show an entertaining match, there is still a good chance that he will win unless his opponent (HuK) does something extremely standard and not only play to the best of his ability, but uses a strategy that directly counters his vulnerable strategy. Thus it is not "throwing the game". The standard "professional" actually has a job to do in S Korea, unlike the rest of the world (seemingly by the response of people who believe NaNiWa did nothing wrong). Professional eSports players are not just selfishly going around playing tournaments to win prize money for themselves, they are in the entertainment business, and their job is to entertain. They make money based on their high level performances, whether that's winning GSL/MLG/DH/etc, or winning showmatches with thor drops or DT drops or mothership/carrier/VR action. If a professional entertainer loses a game while providing a suitably entertaining match, it is forgivable and in most cases understandable. If a professional entertainer starts the game, then immediately calls gg and leaves, that is not forgivable, nor is it understandable. NaNiWa did not act accordingly to be acknowledged as a "pro gamer" in Korea because he failed to uphold the job requirements. Whether or not he's good at gaming is not an issue here. He still had some fans in S Korea prior to this scandal. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
I can somewhat understand the Koreans, although they're going way overboard over a relatively meaningless incident. But why TL is so up in arms over this suddenly, I do not know. I guess SC2 is really not that interesting by itself, and the scene can't live without these huge drama explosions on a regular basis. :/ | ||
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Pratoss
Canada201 Posts
On December 14 2011 08:01 StarStruck wrote: Um, you are aware this happens in real life sports all the time right? A lot of teams stop competing and have no fight back in them. That was the Toronto Maple Leafs for the longest time. ._. say what | ||
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