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On December 14 2011 07:20 Sogetsu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:18 Russano wrote:On December 14 2011 07:16 Sogetsu wrote:
Did all you realize he GET PAID before the games for playing them?
If you understand it, but anyways want to make shitty arguments... ok... do whatever you want, but at least understand the facts of all this drama He did play, the fact that one of his games happened to be incredibly shitty doesn't change that. What? You can't be serious... is that "playing" a game for what you get paid previously? If it is that, then they should stop paying him lol
That's not how it works. That's like saying he should get the highest salary as a SC2 player because he is the best player in the world after he won that series against IMMvp. It's 1 game that had zero significance, that is not a representative sample of Naniwa.
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On December 14 2011 07:30 An-Epic-Sanji wrote:
Given what has happened with Savior in the past and more recently Slayers.Coca, how is this such an unbelievable response?
Savior and Coca did far worse.
And Coca was punished by his team not GOM.
If Naniwa is to be punished by GOM then surely NesTea should be given the same punishment for throwing games against HuK.
Or are we being selective in our standards again? One standard for Koreans and one for Foreigners?
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funny how many people refuse to look at the greater picture of this incident and devalue what happened.
naniwa was disappointed with his performance, understandable. he thought the game was meaningless to play, understandable from his point of view. but it's not only about him at this point. by throwing the game away on purpose, he directly inflicted damage to GomTV and their sponsors, his own team and their sponsors and the people who bought hd tickets.
GomTV already has a hard time to compete with broodwar inside korea to get new viewers/ticket buyers. throwing away games is a very sensible topic in korea and this incident will spread throughout the korean community like the flu. this will instantly hit GomTVs image and reputation. this can also have an effect by getting less money from league sponsors, thanks for having a really bad publicity.
same thing with his own team. bad publicity. can't imagine team sponsors are very happy.
hd ticket buyers also have the rights to feel angry about not getting the value in return of what they'd paid for.
honestly, i'm expecting some kind of penalty against naniwa from GomTV, ie a one season suspension. they should stop treating foreigners with velvet gloves. rules are rules and are for everybody.
if you want to be called a pro-gamer, you have to act like one. you have to professionally represent yourself, your team, your teams sponsors, the league/tournament you're participating in plus their sponsors and show some responsibility towards people buying tickets to see you play.
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On December 14 2011 07:35 Loki57 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:33 Russano wrote:
Plus that Savior thing seems to have implanted a deep stigma of anything even related to match fixing in the Korean E-sports scene. I don't disagree with you there, but that's all the more reason for Naniwa to not do something like this.
I agree, however Naniwa probably didn't have said stigma, further increasing the divide between what he saw as fairly appropriate and what koreans saw.
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On December 14 2011 07:37 tlin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:30 An-Epic-Sanji wrote:
Given what has happened with Savior in the past and more recently Slayers.Coca, how is this such an unbelievable response? Savior and Coca did far worse. And Coca was punished by his team not GOM. If Naniwa is to be punished by GOM then surely NesTea should be given the same punishment for throwing games against HuK. Or are we being selective in our standards again? One standard for Koreans and one for Foreigners?
Of course they did far worse, but it was a good enough indicator of what type of response there would be to anything even remotely similar to their cases.
On December 14 2011 07:37 Russano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:35 Loki57 wrote:On December 14 2011 07:33 Russano wrote:
Plus that Savior thing seems to have implanted a deep stigma of anything even related to match fixing in the Korean E-sports scene. I don't disagree with you there, but that's all the more reason for Naniwa to not do something like this. I agree, however Naniwa probably didn't have said stigma, further increasing the divide between what he saw as fairly appropriate and what koreans saw.
I dunno, I have a hard time believing that he isn't aware of the savior/coca situations. Maybe he just hadn't really thought of it beforehand?
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On December 14 2011 07:37 Cep wrote:
funny how many people refuse to look at the greater picture of this incident and devalue what happened.
naniwa was disappointed with his performance, understandable. he thought the game was meaningless to play, understandable from his point of view. but it's not only about him at this point. by throwing the game away on purpose, he directly inflicted damage to GomTV and their sponsors, his own team and their sponsors and the people who bought hd tickets.
GomTV already has a hard time to compete with broodwar inside korea to get new viewers/ticket buyers. throwing away games is a very sensible topic in korea and this incident will spread throughout the korean community like the flu. this will instantly hit GomTVs image and reputation. this can also have an effect by getting less money from league sponsors, thanks for having a really bad publicity.
same thing with his own team. bad publicity. can't imagine team sponsors are very happy.
hd ticket buyers also have the rights to feel angry about not getting the value in return of what they'd paid for.
honestly, i'm expecting some kind of penalty against naniwa from GomTV, ie a one season suspension. they should stop treating foreigners with velvet gloves. rules are rules and are for everybody.
if you want to be called a pro-gamer, you have to act like one. you have to professionally represent yourself, your team, your teams sponsors, the league/tournament you're participating in plus their sponsors and show some responsibility towards people buying tickets to see you play.
It's not Naniwa's job to try and further the image of e-sports or gom. It would be nice if he did, but I'm certainly not gonna demonize him for it. I don't even think he should be punished by GOM at all wtihin the context of what he did, however it might be appropriate if you decided you needed to do it to discourage ANY sort of incidence even remotely resembling match fixing.
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On December 14 2011 05:28 Gabriel Verlaine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:21 Lt.Roosevelt wrote:
Lol, not a pro gamer? >.<
Anyway, I just hope Quantic stands up and supports Naniwa because quite frankly this is getting out of hand and is blown way out of proportion. I don't think so. Such behaviour is tolerated too much in western eSports. It's unfair and disrespectful and anyone should be punished for it. Even if my personal favourite players would do like that I would demand penalties for it. So many people lost any sense for fairness, it's unbelievable, they o not even know that Naniwa shows disrespect. You can only educate people to be fair again, if you force them by penalties and hopefully the audience will learn what's right and what is wrong.
We will just have to agree to disagree. I don't think it is unfair nor disrespectful (Although I do understand that they see it as disrespectful in Korea and of course that is something Naniwa could try to avoid in the future, for his own sake) and I don't think anyone should ever be punished in a sportsevent for what some people think is disrespectful. No matter if it is a player I hate.
Also, I would still think they made the wrong choise if they penalized a player for something like this and if anything just think worse of the orginazation that did it. Saying they are "educating me" by doing something like that is just beyond me how anyone could think. Either way though I still stand by my earlier statement, no matter how you see it this has blown WAY out of proportion. What articles like this and the uproar in general shows (As well as all the drama surrounding Naniwas move from CoL) is just that it becomes even more clear that as fast as e-sports and SC2 is growing it still has a long way to go to be anywhere near the established sports in terms of solid established organizations and leadership as well as outside sources for information and criticism (journalism etc).
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On December 14 2011 07:41 Russano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:37 Cep wrote:
funny how many people refuse to look at the greater picture of this incident and devalue what happened.
naniwa was disappointed with his performance, understandable. he thought the game was meaningless to play, understandable from his point of view. but it's not only about him at this point. by throwing the game away on purpose, he directly inflicted damage to GomTV and their sponsors, his own team and their sponsors and the people who bought hd tickets.
GomTV already has a hard time to compete with broodwar inside korea to get new viewers/ticket buyers. throwing away games is a very sensible topic in korea and this incident will spread throughout the korean community like the flu. this will instantly hit GomTVs image and reputation. this can also have an effect by getting less money from league sponsors, thanks for having a really bad publicity.
same thing with his own team. bad publicity. can't imagine team sponsors are very happy.
hd ticket buyers also have the rights to feel angry about not getting the value in return of what they'd paid for.
honestly, i'm expecting some kind of penalty against naniwa from GomTV, ie a one season suspension. they should stop treating foreigners with velvet gloves. rules are rules and are for everybody.
if you want to be called a pro-gamer, you have to act like one. you have to professionally represent yourself, your team, your teams sponsors, the league/tournament you're participating in plus their sponsors and show some responsibility towards people buying tickets to see you play. It's not Naniwa's job to try and further the image of e-sports or gom. It would be nice if he did, but I'm certainly not gonna demonize him for it. I don't even think he should be punished by GOM at all wtihin the context of what he did, however it might be appropriate if you decided you needed to do it to discourage ANY sort of incidence even remotely resembling match fixing.
it's their tournament, they can do what they want to see what they can do to _improve their brand_.
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On December 14 2011 07:40 Loki57 wrote:
I agree, however Naniwa probably didn't have said stigma, further increasing the divide between what he saw as fairly appropriate and what koreans saw.
I dunno, I have a hard time believing that he isn't aware of the savior/coca situations. Maybe he just hadn't really thought of it beforehand?[/QUOTE]
you have to understand that Naniwa is pretty socially inept by our standards, even more so by Koreans. I certainly didn't see it as a big deal at all, so its not a stretch for him to have done so as well. Also it can be difficult to equate, meh I'm just gonna give away this meaningless match wtih, lol I'm totally being paid to throw this came so people can bet on it.
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On December 14 2011 07:37 tlin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:30 An-Epic-Sanji wrote:
Given what has happened with Savior in the past and more recently Slayers.Coca, how is this such an unbelievable response? Savior and Coca did far worse. And Coca was punished by his team not GOM. If Naniwa is to be punished by GOM then surely NesTea should be given the same punishment for throwing games against HuK. Or are we being selective in our standards again? One standard for Koreans and one for Foreigners?
It is so incredibly annoying and insulting for people to just throw out accusations of a player throwing a game these days. Please stop with this bullshit.
No one is being selective and Naniwa himself implied he wanted to get the game over with and its meaningless. If you don`t see the difference then I don`t know what to say.
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On December 14 2011 07:42 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:41 Russano wrote:On December 14 2011 07:37 Cep wrote:
funny how many people refuse to look at the greater picture of this incident and devalue what happened.
naniwa was disappointed with his performance, understandable. he thought the game was meaningless to play, understandable from his point of view. but it's not only about him at this point. by throwing the game away on purpose, he directly inflicted damage to GomTV and their sponsors, his own team and their sponsors and the people who bought hd tickets.
GomTV already has a hard time to compete with broodwar inside korea to get new viewers/ticket buyers. throwing away games is a very sensible topic in korea and this incident will spread throughout the korean community like the flu. this will instantly hit GomTVs image and reputation. this can also have an effect by getting less money from league sponsors, thanks for having a really bad publicity.
same thing with his own team. bad publicity. can't imagine team sponsors are very happy.
hd ticket buyers also have the rights to feel angry about not getting the value in return of what they'd paid for.
honestly, i'm expecting some kind of penalty against naniwa from GomTV, ie a one season suspension. they should stop treating foreigners with velvet gloves. rules are rules and are for everybody.
if you want to be called a pro-gamer, you have to act like one. you have to professionally represent yourself, your team, your teams sponsors, the league/tournament you're participating in plus their sponsors and show some responsibility towards people buying tickets to see you play. It's not Naniwa's job to try and further the image of e-sports or gom. It would be nice if he did, but I'm certainly not gonna demonize him for it. I don't even think he should be punished by GOM at all wtihin the context of what he did, however it might be appropriate if you decided you needed to do it to discourage ANY sort of incidence even remotely resembling match fixing. it's their tournament, they can do what they want to see what they can do to _improve their brand_.
Yes, they absolutely have the freedom of power to do so. I will still however think it was a bullshit unwarranted decision, just like earlier in the week when David Stern vetoed the Lakers giant Chris Paul trade.
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On December 14 2011 07:44 mango_destroyer wrote:
It is so incredibly annoying and insulting for people to just throw out accusations of a player throwing a game these days. Please stop with this bullshit.
No one is being selective and Naniwa himself implied he wanted to get the game over with and its meaningless. If you don`t see the difference then I don`t know what to say.
Except it was NesTea himself that said he only lost because he wasn't prepared for HuK to actually take their showmatch seriously.
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On December 14 2011 07:45 Russano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:42 zhurai wrote:On December 14 2011 07:41 Russano wrote:On December 14 2011 07:37 Cep wrote:
funny how many people refuse to look at the greater picture of this incident and devalue what happened.
naniwa was disappointed with his performance, understandable. he thought the game was meaningless to play, understandable from his point of view. but it's not only about him at this point. by throwing the game away on purpose, he directly inflicted damage to GomTV and their sponsors, his own team and their sponsors and the people who bought hd tickets.
GomTV already has a hard time to compete with broodwar inside korea to get new viewers/ticket buyers. throwing away games is a very sensible topic in korea and this incident will spread throughout the korean community like the flu. this will instantly hit GomTVs image and reputation. this can also have an effect by getting less money from league sponsors, thanks for having a really bad publicity.
same thing with his own team. bad publicity. can't imagine team sponsors are very happy.
hd ticket buyers also have the rights to feel angry about not getting the value in return of what they'd paid for.
honestly, i'm expecting some kind of penalty against naniwa from GomTV, ie a one season suspension. they should stop treating foreigners with velvet gloves. rules are rules and are for everybody.
if you want to be called a pro-gamer, you have to act like one. you have to professionally represent yourself, your team, your teams sponsors, the league/tournament you're participating in plus their sponsors and show some responsibility towards people buying tickets to see you play. It's not Naniwa's job to try and further the image of e-sports or gom. It would be nice if he did, but I'm certainly not gonna demonize him for it. I don't even think he should be punished by GOM at all wtihin the context of what he did, however it might be appropriate if you decided you needed to do it to discourage ANY sort of incidence even remotely resembling match fixing. it's their tournament, they can do what they want to see what they can do to _improve their brand_. Yes, they absolutely have the freedom of power to do so. I will still however think it was a bullshit unwarranted decision, just like earlier in the week when David Stern vetoed the Lakers giant Chris Paul trade.
if it really does have the danger to decrease the quality of their brand then it's not really a "bullshit unwarranted decision".
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On December 14 2011 07:46 tlin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 07:44 mango_destroyer wrote:
It is so incredibly annoying and insulting for people to just throw out accusations of a player throwing a game these days. Please stop with this bullshit.
No one is being selective and Naniwa himself implied he wanted to get the game over with and its meaningless. If you don`t see the difference then I don`t know what to say. Except it was NesTea himself that said he only lost because he wasn't prepared for HuK to actually take their showmatch seriously.
Not being prepared does not mean losing on purpose....there could be any number of reasons why he wasn`t prepared...lack of time, something coming up....I can`t believe you think if a player says he wasn`t prepared enough he was purposely trying to lose a game. Wow.
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On December 14 2011 06:53 YMCApylons wrote:I suppose the Korean reaction is something that some Westerners will never understand. There's plenty of bullshit and hypocrisy and screwing around in Korea, but the difference is that when you're supposed to sit straight, shut-up, do your job, and toe the line, even if it's bullshit, you do it. You don't troll the Man.Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of "u mad bro?" and Reddit-style lulz in Korea too, but they save that stuff for the internet and late-night comedy shows. Pro-Starcraft is a serious business in Korea, and has been for years. In pro-BW, you'll lose the match for typing anything other than gg in chat. Doesn't matter than the match didn't mean anything. Doesn't matter that a 7probe rush is functionally almost the same as a 6 pool. Yes, it's for appearances, because appearances matter, and if you don't like it, you can leave. If you're playing in a Blizzard-sponsored match by GOMTV, living at the GOM house (or Startale? conflicting accounts), and GOM wants you to play the vs. Nestea match, you toe the line and play. If that sucks for you, don't try to be a progamer in Korea. They don't owe Naniwa anything, he has to adapt to them, not the other way around. Just watch Artosis at tonight's SOTG. That guy used to be quite a punk in BW, but now he's SC2 establishment, and he's been in Korea for a long time. If you remember his caster vs. player rant, it's clear that he doesn't like the Idra/Huk/Naniwa bad boy persona. There's a guy whose been in the Korean pro-Starcraft scene for a long time, so he'll have plenty to say about respect. "But what about Idra?" That's actually a decent argument. I don't know why Idra got away with it. The best I can come up with is, he was there first, and he was actually pretty good. But they were never fond of his BM either, and certainly didn't miss him when he left. Controversial opinion in spoiler. Don't say you weren't warned. + Show Spoiler +Is it a racist thing? It's complicated. The Korean casts give "good" foreigners like Jinro or White-Ra plenty of respect, but when it comes to "bad" foreigners, the tone can be a little "what will the crazy Westerner do this time? hahaha..." Idra was basically a useful class clown to kick around. It was cute when it was just him - he was basically harmless. They could carve out a "foreigner BM exception" for Idra. But now there's quite a few possibly competitive foreigners, who could make an impact on the scene, so they are treating them like the Koreans. Meaning, don't screw around, or we'll break your face.
Interesting post. I think we tend to forget how bad things had gotten at the end of Idras stay in Korea. Seen from the outside, the hive-mindedness of S Korea can be somewhat terrifying. If you remember the flack and borderline bullying that was going on against Idra at the end of his time there, I really fear for naniwas future in the GSL and Korea. In any case, it's an interesting outsiders view into the way that social norms (and even more so, how transgressions are handled) play a much more important role in S Korean society than what we are used to in our western world.
Not that we don't have then tendency ourselves. Players such as stephano, naniwa, incontrol and idra have all experienced a backlash from the community following what was perceived as errors of character. But there has also always been a tempering, a current among the community that took the opposite position. Even more so from the players. I have a hard time imagining the international players producing a similar outcry to what was seen today on twitter as a reaction to the game.
Perhaps someone with an insiders view can help answer a question. Do you see the same tendency on the korean boards? We get a cherry-picked selection of posts to read, but really a similar selection could be taken from the threads here on TL that would either judge naniwas actions as of no consequence or deserving of disqualification from the GSL. Is the same thing going on on itg and playxp?
A last point worth re-emphasizing is the fact that it's not really about throwing the game. It's the way that it's done. As has been pointed out, when Hero played DRG yesterday, he quite clearly didn't play to win. That was in a match that actually mattered for how the groups turned out. Similarly, try to google for the Korean participation in the WCG in Starcraft 1, and there'll be quite a few examples of thrown games. It's a consequence of the (imo flawed) bo1 group-format of the korean tournaments, and to ask of the players not to be influenced by how the individual matches relates to the tournament as a whole is impossible. Somehow, something in naniwas actions are reprehensible in themselves. Is it because nestea is the "elder" and not playing the game out is an affront to him? Maybe someone can give a korean perspective.
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You have to weigh that against whether or not retroactively punishing people for something not against the rules is a good idea. It might not be bullshit and unwarranted but it certainly doesn't align with my sense of justice.
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Cba to read anything other than the OP. Koreans just mad that someone is not like them... super serious, polite and shit. Weird that they don't mind so much when IdrA, MC and others 'bm'.
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On December 14 2011 07:48 mango_destroyer wrote:
Not being prepared does not mean losing on purpose....there could be any number of reasons why he wasn`t prepared...lack of time, something coming up....I can`t believe you think if a player says he wasn`t prepared enough he was purposely trying to lose a game. Wow.
"I wanted to show an entertaining match but HuK took it serious so I was caught off guard" - NesTea in the interview on stage.
So he was fucking around and therefore threw the game.
This isn't even an uncommon thing in showmatches.
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On December 13 2011 22:44 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +We swear that calling Naniwa a pro-gamer is overrating him. Even considering that he is young and free-style minded foreign player, he forgot to remember that pro-gamers are meant to show the best games out of their ability to fans. Does he make most of his money from gaming? Yes. Is he therefore a pro-gamer? Yes. This is moronic. It's like saying that calling Mario Balotelli a pro-footballer is "overrating him" because he does stupid shit. NaNiWa is a pro-gamer whether you like his attitude or not.
Are you a pro gamer if you win a $25 cup? No. The fact that he makes most of his money from gaming is exactly what they are talking about. The people paying him are overrating him and he shouldn't be allowed to compete in eSports at such a level.
His occupation is pro gamer, but his attitude is lacking, and he doesn't deserve his position.
If you are a professional businessman, but can't act accordingly, you will be fired. You will still be a business man because your train of thought and your habits will be that of a business man, but you won't be working professionally as a businessman.
They are saying that NaNiWa is a good gamer, and is "young and free spirited" but does not belong in the professional world of eSports because his actions have disgraced the game.
If you want to argue against that, then you are not a true fan of eSports.
I was happy when NaNiWa joined QxG because it meant him and SaSe would be together and Sweden eSports would benefit, but after all the things NaNiWa has done, he just doesn't deserve any of his prestige.
He hurts the reputation of QxG, of Sase, of Sweden, of all of his fans, and of eSports as a whole.
May he receive an ample punishment for his actions.
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This is no different than a sports team throwing a game to rest their players for the playoffs. It's distasteful but stuff happens. I still like naniwa
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EPT
