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I think TvP changed because of 2 things
1) 1-1-1 is almost gone (protoss players figured it out + immortal range helps)
2) protoss players realised that they should mass GRADE. Check games before the upgrade cost buffs and you will notice that very few tosses hardcore graded. The upgrade cost buff wasn't that huge, it was just an incentive for every toss player to start grading.
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This is very refreshing to see. It's also been very noticeable in the professional scene, good on Blizzard.
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On December 06 2011 03:18 Snowbear wrote:
I think TvP changed because of 2 things
1) 1-1-1 is almost gone (protoss players figured it out + immortal range helps)
2) protoss players realised that they should mass GRADE. Check games before the upgrade cost buffs and you will notice that very few tosses hardcore graded. The upgrade cost buff wasn't that huge, it was just an incentive for every toss player to start grading.
1-1-1 is most definitely not gone. It is still a problem considering the games I've seen. There's also 2 base variants of the 1-1-1 now also.
I agree with your 2nd point though. Most of the late game losses are because Protoss is 3/3 while Terran is 2/2 and having EMP nerfed doesn't help. I really don't understand why Blizzard decreased the price of upgrades, if anything they should've increased it because of chronoboost.
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On December 06 2011 03:12 Roxy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 03:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 06 2011 02:31 HypernovA wrote:On December 06 2011 02:27 Quotidian wrote:On December 06 2011 00:48 PredY wrote:On December 06 2011 00:44 eYeball wrote:On December 06 2011 00:19 decaf wrote:
So basically we have a really well balanced game right now. Who else is waiting for HOTS to destroy this? David Kim and Dustin Browder. It would be so sad if it would take another year of balance to get it to this again.  tbh, i can't wait for hots. tvp is such a bullshit (design wise) I can't see anything in HOTS that is really going to change tvp, except maybe the battle hellion - but at top levels, I'm guessing stim micro is still the better way to go, considering how slow transformed hellions are. Protoss will still generally be too a-move friendly (that's Blizzard's intention with the colossus after all), and terran still gets no real advantage from holding a position with siege tanks. If the match up changes at all, it'll still be blob vs blob, just with a couple different units and a more cumbersome upgrade path for terran. What's worse, the air terran styles will be even less effective with the air to air splash of the tempest, and the Replicant will kill any tech heavy terran opening. No, mmm will still be the de facto way to play tvp in HOTS. This. Nothing is going to change in HoTs. Tanks will still be garbage in TvP, Warhounds are still going to be countered by charge lots and immortals. Warhounds do extra damage to mechanical, and immortals are mechanical... are they doing to be super-effective against one another? Warhounds will probably suck against immortals unless you have already pierced the hardened sheilds I think warhounds are more of a counter to stalkers, and then to a lesser extent, colosus (and whatever the replicator makes... hope replicator never sees the light of day though)
The thing people forget is that it has range 7, which is sort of mind blowing. Depending on how the whole thing works out, the warhound may never fight an immortal "straight up", but pick at it from the back. The warhound is the one unit I will need to see "do stuff" before I can tell what it will be used for.
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These win rates are really starting to trend, especially ZvP. I'm curious to see where they go in the next few months. I do wish we could see graphs without GSL win rates as well.
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Well I think the decline of 1/1/1 is just as important as the EMP nerf. And TvZ is still stupidly much decided by early rushes.
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Maybe they'll finally buff terran now, and we won't see 1 terran for every 5 zergs and 4 protoss on ladder anymore.
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I think it has to do with Toss ironing out the timings in TvP and T has not yet adapted. The TvP mu will probably see a large flux in the next gsl.
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On December 06 2011 03:28 syllabic wrote:
Maybe they'll finally buff terran now, and we won't see 1 terran for every 5 zergs and 4 protoss on ladder anymore.
The game should be balanced around pro level, not randscum ladder level.
If terran are still owning up the top tourneys, then they can't justify big buffs, or the game will be ruined.
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On December 06 2011 03:28 syllabic wrote:
Maybe they'll finally buff terran now, and we won't see 1 terran for every 5 zergs and 4 protoss on ladder anymore.
Hahahahaha. Because for the first time ever, Terran averaged more losses than wins? It's finally under 50%? And it's 49%?
Imagine if Protoss and Zerg got a default buff for every one percentage point they averaged under the 50-50 even win ratio, every month.
How utterly ridiculous would that be?
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On December 06 2011 03:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 02:31 HypernovA wrote:On December 06 2011 02:27 Quotidian wrote:On December 06 2011 00:48 PredY wrote:On December 06 2011 00:44 eYeball wrote:On December 06 2011 00:19 decaf wrote:
So basically we have a really well balanced game right now. Who else is waiting for HOTS to destroy this? David Kim and Dustin Browder. It would be so sad if it would take another year of balance to get it to this again. tbh, i can't wait for hots. tvp is such a bullshit (design wise) I can't see anything in HOTS that is really going to change tvp, except maybe the battle hellion - but at top levels, I'm guessing stim micro is still the better way to go, considering how slow transformed hellions are. Protoss will still generally be too a-move friendly (that's Blizzard's intention with the colossus after all), and terran still gets no real advantage from holding a position with siege tanks. If the match up changes at all, it'll still be blob vs blob, just with a couple different units and a more cumbersome upgrade path for terran. What's worse, the air terran styles will be even less effective with the air to air splash of the tempest, and the Replicant will kill any tech heavy terran opening. No, mmm will still be the de facto way to play tvp in HOTS. This. Nothing is going to change in HoTs. Tanks will still be garbage in TvP, Warhounds are still going to be countered by charge lots and immortals. Warhounds do extra damage to mechanical, and immortals are mechanical... are they doing to be super-effective against one another?
hardend shield will prevent that extra damage, I bet
On December 06 2011 03:17 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 02:46 Condor Hero wrote:On December 06 2011 02:27 Quotidian wrote:On December 06 2011 00:48 PredY wrote:On December 06 2011 00:44 eYeball wrote:On December 06 2011 00:19 decaf wrote:
So basically we have a really well balanced game right now. Who else is waiting for HOTS to destroy this? David Kim and Dustin Browder. It would be so sad if it would take another year of balance to get it to this again. tbh, i can't wait for hots. tvp is such a bullshit (design wise) I can't see anything in HOTS that is really going to change tvp, except maybe the battle hellion - but at top levels, I'm guessing stim micro is still the better way to go, considering how slow transformed hellions are. Protoss will still generally be too a-move friendly (that's Blizzard's intention with the colossus after all), and terran still gets no real advantage from holding a position with siege tanks. If the match up changes at all, it'll still be blob vs blob, just with a couple different units and a more cumbersome upgrade path for terran. What's worse, the air terran styles will be even less effective with the air to air splash of the tempest, and the Replicant will kill any tech heavy terran opening. No, mmm will still be the de facto way to play tvp in HOTS. As a Protoss I'm scared shitless of the Battle Hellion. In late game PvT, the only thing that can't die instantly in mass Zealots and Hellion with spray aoe would just demolish that. Hopefully the factories and upgrades needed won't make Hellions easily massable with the Bioball. We can only hope that the AOE is short enough that it doesn't stack well. Otherwise, I can see a ball of those being unkillable without an AOE of some sort, since stalker and immortals will lack the necessary DPS to deal with some massed battle hellions. But they might be slow enough where the zealots can outflank them and hit the soft center(seige tanks and warhounds) of this fictional Mech army. Really, that sounds like a more intresting game that MMMVG.
why would you even want to play pvt without getting aoe? The core strength of the protoss army lies in its amazing aoe output... It's entirely the reason why a lot of terrans want to play mech, because ghosts are really hard to use effectively, and tank aoe is theoretically much better since it can actually kill stuff. aoe is basically a must as the game drags on.
On December 06 2011 03:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 03:12 Roxy wrote:On December 06 2011 03:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 06 2011 02:31 HypernovA wrote:On December 06 2011 02:27 Quotidian wrote:On December 06 2011 00:48 PredY wrote:On December 06 2011 00:44 eYeball wrote:On December 06 2011 00:19 decaf wrote:
So basically we have a really well balanced game right now. Who else is waiting for HOTS to destroy this? David Kim and Dustin Browder. It would be so sad if it would take another year of balance to get it to this again. tbh, i can't wait for hots. tvp is such a bullshit (design wise) I can't see anything in HOTS that is really going to change tvp, except maybe the battle hellion - but at top levels, I'm guessing stim micro is still the better way to go, considering how slow transformed hellions are. Protoss will still generally be too a-move friendly (that's Blizzard's intention with the colossus after all), and terran still gets no real advantage from holding a position with siege tanks. If the match up changes at all, it'll still be blob vs blob, just with a couple different units and a more cumbersome upgrade path for terran. What's worse, the air terran styles will be even less effective with the air to air splash of the tempest, and the Replicant will kill any tech heavy terran opening. No, mmm will still be the de facto way to play tvp in HOTS. This. Nothing is going to change in HoTs. Tanks will still be garbage in TvP, Warhounds are still going to be countered by charge lots and immortals. Warhounds do extra damage to mechanical, and immortals are mechanical... are they doing to be super-effective against one another? Warhounds will probably suck against immortals unless you have already pierced the hardened sheilds I think warhounds are more of a counter to stalkers, and then to a lesser extent, colosus (and whatever the replicator makes... hope replicator never sees the light of day though) The thing people forget is that it has range 7, which is sort of mind blowing. Depending on how the whole thing works out, the warhound may never fight an immortal "straight up", but pick at it from the back. The warhound is the one unit I will need to see "do stuff" before I can tell what it will be used for.
I've messed around some with the HOTS mod and I have way more success just going straight up hellion/tank/viking than I do with any serious amount of warhounds. They don't do well against chargelots at all, since chargelots get quite a bit of surface area on them and you can't really kite either. If the protoss player is going pure stalker/colossus, then it might be good, but a mix of sieged and unsieged tanks and vikings is already good against that (not as good as bio of course)
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Small sample size, I wont be getting excited.
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hero gained recognition in september -> protoss took a month to realize what warp prisms do and how to create them -> win rate in pvt flipped. -> *
*surprised zvp is that high i feel looking at the surface protoss has triumphed over zerg in the last month (excluding leenock over nani).
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First time EVER terran has had a negative win rate overall. haha, that alone is a good sign.
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On December 06 2011 03:36 BroboCop wrote:
hero gained recognition in september -> protoss took a month to realize what warp prisms do and how to create them -> win rate in pvt flipped. -> *
*surprised zvp is that high i feel looking at the surface protoss has triumphed over zerg in the last month (excluding leenock over nani).
As if Warp prisms were the main reason to why PvT is in favor of P now...
They are way more effective in PvZ, not so much in PvT.
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On December 06 2011 03:34 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 03:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 06 2011 02:31 HypernovA wrote:On December 06 2011 02:27 Quotidian wrote:On December 06 2011 00:48 PredY wrote:On December 06 2011 00:44 eYeball wrote:On December 06 2011 00:19 decaf wrote:
So basically we have a really well balanced game right now. Who else is waiting for HOTS to destroy this? David Kim and Dustin Browder. It would be so sad if it would take another year of balance to get it to this again. tbh, i can't wait for hots. tvp is such a bullshit (design wise) I can't see anything in HOTS that is really going to change tvp, except maybe the battle hellion - but at top levels, I'm guessing stim micro is still the better way to go, considering how slow transformed hellions are. Protoss will still generally be too a-move friendly (that's Blizzard's intention with the colossus after all), and terran still gets no real advantage from holding a position with siege tanks. If the match up changes at all, it'll still be blob vs blob, just with a couple different units and a more cumbersome upgrade path for terran. What's worse, the air terran styles will be even less effective with the air to air splash of the tempest, and the Replicant will kill any tech heavy terran opening. No, mmm will still be the de facto way to play tvp in HOTS. This. Nothing is going to change in HoTs. Tanks will still be garbage in TvP, Warhounds are still going to be countered by charge lots and immortals. Warhounds do extra damage to mechanical, and immortals are mechanical... are they doing to be super-effective against one another? hardend shield will prevent that extra damage, I bet Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 03:17 Plansix wrote:On December 06 2011 02:46 Condor Hero wrote:On December 06 2011 02:27 Quotidian wrote:On December 06 2011 00:48 PredY wrote:On December 06 2011 00:44 eYeball wrote:On December 06 2011 00:19 decaf wrote:
So basically we have a really well balanced game right now. Who else is waiting for HOTS to destroy this? David Kim and Dustin Browder. It would be so sad if it would take another year of balance to get it to this again. tbh, i can't wait for hots. tvp is such a bullshit (design wise) I can't see anything in HOTS that is really going to change tvp, except maybe the battle hellion - but at top levels, I'm guessing stim micro is still the better way to go, considering how slow transformed hellions are. Protoss will still generally be too a-move friendly (that's Blizzard's intention with the colossus after all), and terran still gets no real advantage from holding a position with siege tanks. If the match up changes at all, it'll still be blob vs blob, just with a couple different units and a more cumbersome upgrade path for terran. What's worse, the air terran styles will be even less effective with the air to air splash of the tempest, and the Replicant will kill any tech heavy terran opening. No, mmm will still be the de facto way to play tvp in HOTS. As a Protoss I'm scared shitless of the Battle Hellion. In late game PvT, the only thing that can't die instantly in mass Zealots and Hellion with spray aoe would just demolish that. Hopefully the factories and upgrades needed won't make Hellions easily massable with the Bioball. We can only hope that the AOE is short enough that it doesn't stack well. Otherwise, I can see a ball of those being unkillable without an AOE of some sort, since stalker and immortals will lack the necessary DPS to deal with some massed battle hellions. But they might be slow enough where the zealots can outflank them and hit the soft center(seige tanks and warhounds) of this fictional Mech army. Really, that sounds like a more intresting game that MMMVG. why would you even want to play pvt without getting aoe? The core strength of the protoss army lies in its amazing aoe output... It's entirely the reason why a lot of terrans want to play mech, because ghosts are really hard to use effectively, and tank aoe is theoretically much better since it can actually kill stuff. aoe is basically a must as the game drags on. Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 03:24 Plansix wrote:On December 06 2011 03:12 Roxy wrote:On December 06 2011 03:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 06 2011 02:31 HypernovA wrote:On December 06 2011 02:27 Quotidian wrote:On December 06 2011 00:48 PredY wrote:On December 06 2011 00:44 eYeball wrote:On December 06 2011 00:19 decaf wrote:
So basically we have a really well balanced game right now. Who else is waiting for HOTS to destroy this? David Kim and Dustin Browder. It would be so sad if it would take another year of balance to get it to this again. tbh, i can't wait for hots. tvp is such a bullshit (design wise) I can't see anything in HOTS that is really going to change tvp, except maybe the battle hellion - but at top levels, I'm guessing stim micro is still the better way to go, considering how slow transformed hellions are. Protoss will still generally be too a-move friendly (that's Blizzard's intention with the colossus after all), and terran still gets no real advantage from holding a position with siege tanks. If the match up changes at all, it'll still be blob vs blob, just with a couple different units and a more cumbersome upgrade path for terran. What's worse, the air terran styles will be even less effective with the air to air splash of the tempest, and the Replicant will kill any tech heavy terran opening. No, mmm will still be the de facto way to play tvp in HOTS. This. Nothing is going to change in HoTs. Tanks will still be garbage in TvP, Warhounds are still going to be countered by charge lots and immortals. Warhounds do extra damage to mechanical, and immortals are mechanical... are they doing to be super-effective against one another? Warhounds will probably suck against immortals unless you have already pierced the hardened sheilds I think warhounds are more of a counter to stalkers, and then to a lesser extent, colosus (and whatever the replicator makes... hope replicator never sees the light of day though) The thing people forget is that it has range 7, which is sort of mind blowing. Depending on how the whole thing works out, the warhound may never fight an immortal "straight up", but pick at it from the back. The warhound is the one unit I will need to see "do stuff" before I can tell what it will be used for. I've messed around some with the HOTS mod and I have way more success just going straight up hellion/tank/viking than I do with any serious amount of warhounds. They don't do well against chargelots at all, since chargelots get quite a bit of surface area on them and you can't really kite either. If the protoss player is going pure stalker/colossus, then it might be good, but a mix of sieged and unsieged tanks and vikings is already good against that (not as good as bio of course)
Since protoss get their AOEs so late and Battle hellions come so early and can be made from a reactored factory, it is a concern. I am sure it will work out after some balancing.
Warhounds seem like a support unit, rather than a unit like the maruader. It would be made relative to number of immortals/stalkers you see. Or not made at all. I think people will try them out and they will have some place in the match up.
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This Graph is actually absurdly deceiving for November look at the Terran vs Protoss win Rate and Look at the Zerg Vs Protoss win Rate
At the End of the Graph for ZvP It's Zoomed in as too make it look like a much larger Disparity in balance in PvZ compared to TvP When in actuality the numbers are pretty similar
54.2% Protoss win | 45.8 % Terran win-rate | November
53.5% Zerg Win | 46.5 % Protoss Win-Rate| November
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TwCJx.png) Rate For November
If anything ZvP is Closer Balanced than TvP according to the Graph Numbers but yet the Lines Show ZvP at a Huge Disparity?
Can anyone not see how the path the lines take on the Graphs can be deceiving if you look closely you'll see the Lines make it look like ZvP is worse when its actually pretty close to TvP Win-Rate Even more Balanced Actually *According the the Graphs*
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On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better.
Edit: Oh yeah I forgot that one: The difference is actually not that huge guys! The scale of the Y-axis is exagerated!
This post from october thread should be in every "TLPD Race Winrate Graphs" op.
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On December 06 2011 03:58 Skawuscha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better.
Edit: Oh yeah I forgot that one: The difference is actually not that huge guys! The scale of the Y-axis is exagerated! This post from october thread should be in every "TLPD Race Winrate Graphs" op.
Except for the "And Terran players are just better" part, because that's just nonsense.
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On December 06 2011 04:00 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 03:58 Skawuscha wrote:On November 07 2011 04:25 ZenithM wrote:
Looking balanced to me.
And even if it was not, there is not enough data to conclude anything.
And stats don't mean anything.
And you have to actually look at the gameplay and not the results to form an opinion on balance.
And Terran players are just better.
Edit: Oh yeah I forgot that one: The difference is actually not that huge guys! The scale of the Y-axis is exagerated! This post from october thread should be in every "TLPD Race Winrate Graphs" op. Except for the "And Terran players are just better" part, because that's just nonsense.
Well the "not enough data" thing is also very discussable... Cause seriously... You won't get so MUCH more data than 1.000 results in most surveys of this type.
Furthermore the stability of overall trends suggest that actually there IS enough data!
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EPT
