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The Analytical Caster - A Twitter Story - Page 22
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Keep the discussion civil, please. | ||
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steff
United Kingdom40 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On January 05 2012 11:53 steff wrote: If he didnt have the startup fanbase from wow do you really think a silver level caster who doesn't know anything about the game and shouts in an over emphasised English accent would have made it ? I mean REALLY ? anyway its not really relevant to what I was saying, fact is good casters add a huge value to tournaments, but there are a huge amount of bad casters raking in cash who cant even be bothered to learn the game to a decent level. Odd how someone like TLO could just step in and be a huge improvement over Totalbiscuit with hardly any casting experience wasn't it ?  Look, some players, like TLO, definitely have the charisma and the personality to be amazing casters if they tried. However, the vast majority of the players simply don't have that ability. Casting for the broader audience is more than simply being correct and analytically. Casting is first and foremost to entertain the viewers. If the caster is knowledgeable, the cast becomes more fun to watch than if the caster is spouting bullshit. But at the same time, if the caster is really knowledgeable but has absolutely no idea of how to communicate or relay their knowledge to the viewers, the cast will be boring and lack excitement. Here at TL, the majority of players probably have a decent grasp of the game and also are passionate enough about the game that we probably wouldn't give a shit if the casters of the game spoke in complete monotone and would watch it anyways. But I'm pretty darn sure that the TL attitude isn't the attitude of the majority. It certainly isn't the attitude of people who are just getting into the eSports scene. The reason why players are making less than casters is because casters are an as big, or bigger draw of viewership. SC2 is still quite young and the western audience values personality above all else. We (as in Westerners in general) like to see personable, exciting people and are more drawn to them. Because casters exhibit that personality and charisma, they become a larger asset and are more marketable. Casters will continue making more money than players until we get players who are very marketable or players with so much raw skill their mere presence is entertainment enough. Not only that, but players themselves have to realize their own $$$ potential and stand up for themselves, which can't happen until the foundation of esports is more developed. Think of it this way, I highly doubt that the first pro basketball players made that much money; the vast majority of earnings probably went to networks or sponsors. As the pro scene developed and gained a larger following, the income moved to players. Like, I want players to be making more money than casters; they deserve it more imo, but it's as much something they (the players/casters) have to work out as it is something the community needs to do. EDIT: I find it extremely ironic how steff is telling people assumptions are bad and not to make assumptions while holding up his insulting insinuations against TB as fact lololol. Look man, you hate TB and think he's a bad caster, we get it. But clearly he isn't so bad to the general public because if he was, he'd be out of job long ago. Bad casters shouldn't be making a lot of money, agreed. But you have to realize that there's a lot of wannabe casters out there and the market for casters is pretty competitive. If the casters you see regularly, Apollo, Day[9], TB, Husky, djWheat, etc... weren't to some measure competent or even just likable by the viewers they'd be axed long ago. If TB really is as bad as you believe him to be, he'll eventually lose his job. If he keeps his job, then he's probably not as terrible as you say he is, and you're just an anti-fan, which is fine. | ||
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lisward
Singapore959 Posts
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
I think if you're gonna start getting good deals for casting you should put a little bit more effort in learning the game and at least get to high master (which really isn't hard once you've put enough volume in) I personally enjoy day9/tastosis best and I wish iNcontrol would try casting again instead cuz I thought he was doing a great job... Orb is also surprisingly quite decent so keep it up | ||
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tzenes
Canada64 Posts
A recently retired player is a better caster than a currently playing player, as a currently playing player has to divide his time between practicing playing, and practicing being a caster. I do NOT think he was trying to say that full time casters who were _never_ players are better. | ||
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EnderCraft
United States1746 Posts
On January 05 2012 12:04 steff wrote: no those are called facts they are different to assumptions, the assumption is on your part that he would have made it without a carry over fan base from other games. Just stop. You are making a fool out of yourself. Your OPINION is that you prefer analytical casting. Your so called "forum goers" OPINION is that that they prefer analytical casting. So TB isn't your cup of tea. Why do you feel the need to get on a forum and continue to lay fallacy after fallacy towards a frickin caster who you barely know anything about like you are the king of England (apparently your word is law?) TB is a play-by-play caster. He doesn't claim to have top tier knowledge about the game. Why do so many people like you insist on coming into a thread about ANALYTICAL CASTING and derailing this thread into a spew of hateful comments towards a PLAY BY PLAY caster... | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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EnderCraft
United States1746 Posts
On January 05 2012 12:44 ReignFayth wrote: wtf is a playbyplay caster... The person during a televised or radio cast that describes quite literally what is going on in the match/game. Their job is to mainly add excitement to the cast. hence, "HES GOING FOR THE GOAL. HE SHOOTS. HE SCORES!!!!!!!!!!!!!". You're from Canada right Fayth? Every good hockey cast has to have an exciting play by play commentator. In my opinion at least. edit: Imagine if you were a hockey pro. You probably wouldn't care too much for the play by play caster either like you do in SC2. A person like me who plays the game on an average level obviously isn't going to be annoyed as much when a caster makes an analytical mistake. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
unlike sports, you can actually still play the game even if u're like 50 yrs old lol | ||
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littlemozart7
69 Posts
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
You cannot have a cake and eat it too. Either deserved pay is determined by market forces and then all complaints outside of salary negotiations are meaningless. Or deserved pay is based on some societal utility and then HuK should get 20000/year at best. Of course the whole twitter drama might be actually PR stunt to influence salary negotiations and then it is understandable | ||
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EnderCraft
United States1746 Posts
On January 05 2012 12:53 ReignFayth wrote: but I find Day9 to be very entertaining and his overall analysis are a lot better... shouldn't they aim for both? During most sports casts the play by play commentator is almost always has a strong broadcasting background. The analytical caster on the other hand is almost always a retired player. When Day9/Husky cast people like to point out that Husky talks A LOT. However, husky is doing the play by play of what is unfolding in the game. Day9 exists to analyze the different plays that occur throughout the cast. This model has been used for decades edit: But yes your right, day9 can indeed fill both roles. However, in my opinion I don't believe it is necessary as long as the casting duo plays their roles correctly. | ||
Adebisi
Canada1637 Posts
On January 05 2012 12:56 EnderCraft wrote: During most sports casts the play by play commentator is almost always has a strong broadcasting background. The analytical caster on the other hand is almost always a retired player. When Day9/Husky cast people like to point out that Husky talks A LOT. However, husky is doing the play by play of what is unfolding in the game. Day9 exists to analyze the different plays that occur throughout the cast. This model has been used for decades edit: But yes your right, day9 can indeed fill both roles. However, in my opinion I don't believe it is necessary as long as the casting duo plays their roles correctly. I think this is the biggest mistake people make, comparing SC2 commentary to real Sports. I'm not saying the role of play-by-play and expert commentary shouldn't exist and aren't good roles to fill in SC2, but I think it might be a false division or creation of roles. Anytime I watch sports, I more or less pay 0 attention to the commentator, the commentators are often just competely silent at different points as well, SC2 is entirely different. Granted, I think in the long run, if SC2 keeps growing, and things like BarCrafts and other social gatherings become more popular, I think it may become more like real sports, where you don't really pay attention to the commentary, when I've been to BarCrafts I really don't listen to the commentary either !_!. | ||
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EnderCraft
United States1746 Posts
On January 05 2012 13:02 Adebisi wrote: I think this is the biggest mistake people make, comparing SC2 commentary to real Sports. I'm not saying the role of play-by-play and expert commentary shouldn't exist and aren't good roles to fill in SC2, but I think it might be a false division or creation of roles. Anytime I watch sports, I more or less pay 0 attention to the commentator, the commentators are often just competely silent at different points as well, SC2 is entirely different. Granted, I think in the long run, if SC2 keeps growing, and things like BarCrafts and other social gatherings become more popular, I think it may become more like real sports, where you don't really pay attention to the commentary, when I've been to BarCrafts I really don't listen to the commentary either !_!. I was waiting for someone to raise this point ^_^ SC2 is a game and Hockey is a sport, but a game as well. There are strategies in a game like hockey that casual viewers like myself probably couldn't even begin to understand. When Naniwa 4 gates Nestea we can equate that to a forward in Hockey shooting for the game winning goal. Also quite similarly, both can be commentated in the same fashion. For example, "Naniwa gets another warp-in and Nestea GG's!" *analytical caster describes the intricacies that went into the 4gate play (lol)*. "Backstrom passes the puck to ovechkin! OVECHKIN SCORES IN OVERTIME!!!" *analytical caster describes the intricacies that went into the game winning goal* In terms of casting, both can be commentated in the same fashion. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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magnaflow
Canada1521 Posts
Without the Korean players, MLG, DH, IPL, NASL (llok at NASL now compared to when they had Korean participants) etc etc would be nowhere near the size they are now. Quit complaining about your wage, you could always be playing MLG in a back room with fold out tables again. And I don't see why HuK is complaining. When he first went to Korea I would watch his stream and he always had a little message going across the bottom asking for donations. Apparently he liked pizza Be thankful for what you are getting paid now. 2-3 years from now you might not have a contract at all. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On January 05 2012 13:14 EnderCraft wrote: I was waiting for someone to raise this point ^_^ SC2 is a game and Hockey is a sport, but a game as well. There are strategies in a game like hockey that casual viewers like myself probably couldn't even begin to understand. When Naniwa 4 gates Nestea we can equate that to a forward in Hockey shooting for the game winning goal. Also quite similarly, both can be commentated in the same fashion. For example, "Naniwa gets another warp-in and Nestea GG's!" *analytical caster describes the intricacies that went into the 4gate play (lol)*. "Backstrom passes the puck to ovechkin! OVECHKIN SCORES IN OVERTIME!!!" *analytical caster describes the intricacies that went into the game winning goal* In terms of casting, both can be commentated in the same fashion. There are though also differences. In hockey you do not really need an observer, it is a slight plus to have someone who directs the camera, but you can see a whole playing field at once without losing much of the action. That is of course not true of SC. And related to that is the fact that it is much easier to watch a hockey game without knowing the intricacies of what the players are doing as the actual action is closely matched with what you see. In SC there is much looser link between what you see and what is "actually" happening in the game. In my experience in sports the only use for commentators for me is that they create "atmosphere" with their commentating, I actually do not really care about what they are saying and I could care less about analytical commentator in sports. On the other hand I could not imagine having similar experience in watching SC match without listening to the commentators or not having analytical caster. I think the reason is that SC is part way between sport games and chess. In chess you do not really care too much about any play-by-play commentator, but if you are not high level GM you appreciate analytical commentary. SC is just somewhat more like sport in that there actually is action and physical skill plays a role, but deeper strategy plays bigger role than in sports. Basically my point is that unlike sports where play-by-play is more important, in SC analytical side is just necessary even for casual viewers at least to some degree. Pure play-by-play is just taking from the game too much as the game is too much defined by strategy compared to sport games. So even the commentator with play-by-play role HAS to be in part analytical commentator at least on some satisfactory level. Btw all the above are my opinions based on my personal observations. I am not saying that it is necessarily so, but just to note, noone actually can pretend to know for sure as that would require some rather extensive statistical studies that I doubt were done Question for any people watching Korean BW, I know they often use trios of commentators. Do they have purely play-by-play one or are all of them at least to some degree analytical commentators (former players/coaches) ? How does the division of labor work there? I am asking as that is basically the only real-life empirical data available on the topic. | ||
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AimlessAmoeba
Canada704 Posts
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_-NoMaN-_
Canada250 Posts
On November 30 2011 08:52 Soleron wrote: I like being told what is happening by a play-by-play caster even though I could look for myself. It makes it so I'm watching a sport instead of playing a mental chess problem. The audience's "part" is to feel the tension, cheer for a player, and so forth. The casters need to give me all the information, both play-by-play and analytical, so I can feel the right thing. ^This. There are games when a good chunk of the tension i feel is from (in)experienced (read. terrible players) casters totally ignoring pivotal moments/movements/decisions, while focusing on irrelevant minutia. I think the more important distinction (in terms of sticking to their roles) is not between players and analytical casters, it is between analytical and play by play casters. One needs charisma and overall likability along with marginal to good knowledge of the game, the other needs extensive knowledge of and experience with the game along with marginal to good charisma/communication skills. If this balance is maintained, and the casters don't transgress their roles (ahem, HD, ahem), it makes the audience, as stated above, 'feel the right thing'. Edit. I see no reason at all not to have pro players in the analytical role, as long as they are paired with a great play by play guy and are not excruciatingly inarticulate. | ||
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HeavOnEarth
United States7087 Posts
TIP TOP casters(talking artosis, day 9... close but he generally prefers to simplify things) are probably better at this theoretical analysis but they have no way near the execution and split second decision making , knowledge of the metagame between two players/ map + mu specific knowledge, etc. that pros have As a player myself i LOVE when top players cast : example: idra's occasional commentary but i feel its even more important to have someone who is professional at entertaining , because lets face it no one really cares about stupid u are if u can tell a good joke and keep cool in front of 10,000+ people Also what soleron said is pretty spot -on , BUT honestly any player can do a play by play, better than any "top caster" and great speech and personality isn't something that is crazy out of reach for a player to do. if anything u can learn those things far faster and easier than becoming a sc2 pro which brings me back to HuKs argument that if players knew what was good for them, they would all switch to casting , provided they care about money. | ||
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