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On November 22 2011 18:27 mrGRAPE wrote:
This probably has been mentioned elsewhere before that you can use combination of both real and nick name when referring to the player in print (which may require formality) ie. Greg "Idra" Fields but only use "Idra" when referring to the player in speech / casting (which may require quick access to the names).
It doesn't have to be an EITHER / OR situation you know.
It should be like you say but the casters should use their real names.
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I'd like to see a transition into using real names.
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On November 22 2011 18:25 sodapop wrote:
Yes, nicknames should be used much more sparsely. The over-use is ruining e-sports.
Or am I the only one that is somewhat embarrassed to introduce professional SC2 matches to friends just because the commentators refer to eachother as "Artosis", "Tasteless" & "Day Nine" and the players as "Killer" and "Nestea"?
On pronunciation, it's the same thing in all sports. Every other sports commentator can handle names from different countries. It takes 5 minutes of preparation, and that is something that I expect of the commentary.
Thanks.
I couldn't have said it better. Exactly my opinion!
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Nicknames... Would you rather call 'Eminem', well "Eminem" or Marshall Bruce Mathers III? Sometimes it just sounds better saying the nickname. However in my opinion both "Destiny" and "Steven Bonnell II" have a good rhythm. It really just matters how pronounceable and syllabic the words are in the nickname/player name.
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People on the ladder obviously use their nickname, so amateurs will always start out with a nickname. I think casters should be able to use both, however nicknames are here to stay for one reason: Foreign names. Good luck pronouncing Payam Toghyan, Aleksey Krupnyk, Sun Li Wei or Juha-Matti Bäckström.
For an english caster those names are hard to pronounce properly, however other names like Jonathan and Greck are perfectly fine, and most people know them by their ID (Jinro/IdrA) as well.
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I think referring to players by nicknames does give a lot of immediacy, you can often remember when and how much you have heard a certain nickname, where as a name just blends into the crowd (especially if it is foreign, Asian names in particular often have common parts, adding to the confusion).
The sponsors can be involved in the nickname, but would be taking quite some bet if they were involved in the family name..
However I do try and make an effort to learn the real names of the players, as when referring to the person (or in person) I feel funny using a handle, especially face to face.
Having said that I have been 'CJ' for the past 20 years, basically forcing everyone to call my by a nick name since most of my friends don't even know my real name, so I guess that blurs the line even more.
I don't think the credibility of eSports is at stake at all. I think the prize money, dedication, organisation and professionalism are what contributes to making it more credible, and it is only events like Gomas in the finals of the i44 lan qualifier that risk its credibility..
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Nicknames are cooler, like 20% cooler.
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Respect the ID. It works in Korea because Korean names are all part of the same language. In the west, we have all sorts of tricky names to pronounce, and they take longer to pronounce than Korean names as well. Stick to IDs, it's easier.
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MURICA15980 Posts
The big difference between musicians using psuedo names and gamers using their screen names is the process in which the name is created. When an artist or a band decide on a name, they are coming up with a name that will best resonate and market themselves to their target audience. So Eminem feels that a nickname sells better to the rapping community and Justin Bieber and Taylor Swift feel that using their real name works better to sell themselves to their target audience.
However, gamers do not choose their name in this way. Usually, their screen names were created without much thought about marketability and instead are just names they picked as a flavor of the month type of deal. But once they get famous, they have to stick with it. This is what makes using SC screen names less appealing - because they are actually not that marketable to a broader audience because they were never intended to be. Thus we can be stuck with some pretty bad and terrible names purely on the judgement of players who may have come up with their names when they were socially awkward teenagers. This helps to perpetuate the perception that esports is simply a thing for kids who haven't grown up yet. And we all probably hate that stigma.
Truth be told, there are players like Ochocinco, Kaka, Chicarito, Shaq, etc from sports that use nick names. But they are the rare exception and often times are created with their fans. So I guess you can count me in the camp that would love to see more usage of real names, or even a combination of them, kind of like how Day9 has marketed himself as "Sean Day9 Plott" instead of just Day9. I think Day was onto something and it is something that many current gamers can learn from.
In terms of how hard names are to pronounce... yeah we sure do hate pronoucing Pau Gasol, Ichiro, Nadal, Manu Ginobli, DONGRAEGU, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Muhammad Ali, and many many others. Hell, our president's name is Barrack Obama. I think it's a fear that's unwarranted. In fact, I'd say it's harder to say Nony or Idra because who the hell knows how to pronounce those names without hearing it over and over on a stream? I think people today even disagree on how Nony was supposed to be pronounced. Hell, I don't even know how Klogon is supposed to be pronounced.
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On November 22 2011 13:25 sebusca wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 13:23 Greggle wrote:
I thought this was about all the bullshit forced nicknames they give players, not their IDs. I feel like Tastosis assigns every single code S player a nickname, some have like 5 and they all feel so forced, we have MC as the Kratoss and July as the God of War... when you have two people with the same god damn nickname its quite clear you're giving out nicknames for the sake of giving out nicknames. Half the time someone is given a nickname for how they played in ONE game. Not everyone deserves one.
There's only a handful of nicknames I actually like. Professor Tea for Nestea teaching the world how to play Zerg, the Brood War carry overs are fine like Genius Terran for Nada, Son of Boxer is pretty accurate for MMA, but not many others really. Lol July was the God of War long before Tastosis said it. Learn your history.
I was aware, but I guess I worded it pretty poorly. My complaint was MC's nickname, I know July has been around forever and was once far more godly than today.
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Starting to think real names during tournaments would be better. It doesn't have to affect the casual non professional players. A lot of fans will still use the player's nicknames like in any sport but maybe it would be more professional and accessible for new fans and sponsors if during tournaments players were referred to by their real names.
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On November 22 2011 18:16 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 18:04 Mehukannu wrote:On November 22 2011 17:42 Geo.Rion wrote:On November 22 2011 17:38 Egyptian_Head wrote:On November 22 2011 17:32 Geo.Rion wrote:
We've been here and discussed this so many times. Korean casters can pronounce correctly the korean names 100% of the times, (and Korean fans can learn them) but believe me american casters (so most of the important ones) can't pronounce at least half of the players' name correctly. Plus western culture is more prone to use nicknames, look at other sports, in many cases they use both the players's nicknames and real names from time to time, and sometime use only the nicknames.
For example, imagine if ex-sc legend Elky wanted the casters to pronounce his name, Bertrand Grospellier, well good luck for anyone who doesnt speak french. Now that he's a poker pro, casters still call him Elky, because he's known as such and it's easier to pronounce. (i didnt watch a lot of poker but in High Stakes Poker and TheBigGame they refer to him as Elky) Your argument is that someone who earns a living casting cannot take a few minutes to practice saying someones name? Listen to how the name is said, repeat until comfortable, cast. God forbid someone would actually have to learn a non english sounding name. Seriously the more you hear the names the easier it will be. The only reason you don't know and cannot pronounce the names is because you haven't been exposed to them enough. Casters might learn, although in my experience they dont. What about fans, take my example, they hear Grospellier they go to TLPD try to type something like Grapoleea, and thye wont find it. Or they try to learn Korean names, there are like 100 pros, and how many of them have Kim or Park or Dong or something starting with Yo.. in their names? Yes it can be learned, is it easy? No. I love it when some people go on about how hard it is to learn peoples name from another country without even trying. I don't it is going to be hard to learn pro players real name, since all you have to do is to watch and follow the scene and at some point you are going to remember most of the pro players real names. Most likely you don't even need to try to remember their names since it will come around naturally the more you hear casters say their names or read about them in the forums. I actually could learn very easily, i speak like 4 languages and can read in 3 more so i wont have any problem, but i ve seen and heard people and casters struggle. Open up any game any match where idk someone from a random EU country is playing, and you know how their names should be pronounced. Do they pronounce it correctly? most of the times they dont, even with superstars, let alone ppl who appear for the first time. Every thread would have 10 more pages of flame when a caster just flat out fails to pronounce or if two casters dont agree on how to pronounce it, or make fun of it god forbid because it sound silly or complicated. And there are weird cases when a player is from X country but he hails from somewhere else so casters go like ok, he's German, we pronounce it like that, and it turns out he's Italian. If i'd be a pro i'd have the same problem, I live in Romania and am Hungarian and have a Hungarian name, but who cares about me, take Naniwa, he definetly has an Italian sounding name, but i have no idea if he has Italian background or how he wants us to pronounce his name. Or most recent interview of Huk, i mean, Huk, one of the foreigners on the hottest streak, the interview starts with the commentator trying to pronounce his name like 3 times and doesnt really manages, and he's Canadian for god's sake, try someone from Estonia or Hungary or any smaller European countries. Imagine the job of the weekly tourney casters where they cast games of players who are 70% different each week, or someone who tries to break trough, wins a couple of small cups but no one remembers him cuz they didnt learn his name. Bottom line, it's unpractical, and creates contraversy.
I don't see how that is a problem since it is caster specific. Caster should learn to pronounce pro players names, because it is their job pretty much. It ain't going to be as hard as it is for say ice hockey commentators especially if it is live when there are a lot of players in field at the same time. Also casters will pronounce nicknames wrong too like Naama for example.
But really, it is all about if the caster is willing to spend their free time to learning to pronounce players names right.
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If people would start calling koreans by their real name, i would have no idea who the fuck they talk about. Besides, i think the decision should be left to the players...If you want people call you by your name, just change your handle to your name...e.g. Liquid`Tyler
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We could try to change it, but it would have to be slow. I like the compromise with saying the Nickname in the middle of the full name. People like Boxer, Nestea, MVP, MC should be treated this way at least, they are established and easy to remember..
Why not call MC before a match "in the top right corner is oGs.MC - Jang Min Chul"? (oGs.SK if in a foreign tournament?)
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On November 22 2011 18:51 Klogon wrote:
The big difference between musicians using psuedo names and gamers using their screen names is the process in which the name is created. When an artist or a band decide on a name, they are coming up with a name that will best resonate and market themselves to their target audience. So Eminem feels that a nickname sells better to the rapping community and Justin Bieber and Taylor Swift feel that using their real name works better to sell themselves to their target audience.
However, gamers do not choose their name in this way. Usually, their screen names were created without much thought about marketability and instead are just names they picked as a flavor of the month type of deal. But once they get famous, they have to stick with it. This is what makes using SC screen names less appealing - because they are actually not that marketable to a broader audience because they were never intended to be. Thus we can be stuck with some pretty bad and terrible names purely on the judgement of players who may have come up with their names when they were socially awkward teenagers. This helps to perpetuate the perception that esports is simply a thing for kids who haven't grown up yet. And we all probably hate that stigma.
Truth be told, there are players like Ochocinco, Kaka, Chicarito, Shaq, etc from sports that use nick names. But they are the rare exception and often times are created with their fans. So I guess you can count me in the camp that would love to see more usage of real names, or even a combination of them, kind of like how Day9 has marketed himself as "Sean Day9 Plott" instead of just Day9. I think Day was onto something and it is something that many current gamers can learn from.
In terms of how hard names are to pronounce... yeah we sure do hate pronoucing Pau Gasol, Ichiro, Nadal, Manu Ginobli, DONGRAEGU, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Muhammad Ali, and many many others. Hell, our president's name is Barrack Obama. I think it's a fear that's unwarranted. In fact, I'd say it's harder to say Nony or Idra because who the hell knows how to pronounce those names without hearing it over and over on a stream? I think people today even disagree on how Nony was supposed to be pronounced. Hell, I don't even know how Klogon is supposed to be pronounced.
I was with you until the very end lol. Nony and Idra and even Klogon are all pronounced exactly as they are written, gamer tags are in general far easier to pronounce than someone's real name.
I am a musician, I have a stage name like most performers which I ended up taking as my "real name" (its on my drivers licence etc). My name is Kai Green, a simple name I think, however virtually everyone I meet can't get it right to begin with. I get called Kia, Kay, Karl. I often just introduce myself with my nickname instead, which is Switch, because people struggle with it less lol.
The days of people thinking gamers were immature etc because they use silly names is gone. Most gamers these days actually have some reason they use the tag they do, IdrA for instance is short for Idrajit which is a hindu god if memory serves. I agree that using real names would be a good thing but its also a little cumbersome when speaking fast and describing a game that moves faster than any real solo sport, there is a reason why in real sports people are usually referred to by their surname only while playing.... a gamer tag is no different.
Most people who aren't massive fans of a team or sport could only name players using their surnames, I couldn't tell you the forenames of half the players on the football team I support, mainly because I don't hear them very often.
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Using real names will cause trolling to your downfall :/
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I'm voting for nicknames.
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On November 22 2011 18:35 Tofugrinder wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 18:25 sodapop wrote:
Yes, nicknames should be used much more sparsely. The over-use is ruining e-sports.
Or am I the only one that is somewhat embarrassed to introduce professional SC2 matches to friends just because the commentators refer to eachother as "Artosis", "Tasteless" & "Day Nine" and the players as "Killer" and "Nestea"?
On pronunciation, it's the same thing in all sports. Every other sports commentator can handle names from different countries. It takes 5 minutes of preparation, and that is something that I expect of the commentary.
Thanks. I couldn't have said it better. Exactly my opinion!
If you really are embarrassed because of caster calling each other nickname, i feel sorry for you. This is a culture/scene where the nickname is how people identify each other, its a part of the scene. Its just how this "sport" work. I would feel really sad if it went away since its such a big part of this scene.
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MURICA15980 Posts
On November 22 2011 19:31 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 18:51 Klogon wrote:
The big difference between musicians using psuedo names and gamers using their screen names is the process in which the name is created. When an artist or a band decide on a name, they are coming up with a name that will best resonate and market themselves to their target audience. So Eminem feels that a nickname sells better to the rapping community and Justin Bieber and Taylor Swift feel that using their real name works better to sell themselves to their target audience.
However, gamers do not choose their name in this way. Usually, their screen names were created without much thought about marketability and instead are just names they picked as a flavor of the month type of deal. But once they get famous, they have to stick with it. This is what makes using SC screen names less appealing - because they are actually not that marketable to a broader audience because they were never intended to be. Thus we can be stuck with some pretty bad and terrible names purely on the judgement of players who may have come up with their names when they were socially awkward teenagers. This helps to perpetuate the perception that esports is simply a thing for kids who haven't grown up yet. And we all probably hate that stigma.
Truth be told, there are players like Ochocinco, Kaka, Chicarito, Shaq, etc from sports that use nick names. But they are the rare exception and often times are created with their fans. So I guess you can count me in the camp that would love to see more usage of real names, or even a combination of them, kind of like how Day9 has marketed himself as "Sean Day9 Plott" instead of just Day9. I think Day was onto something and it is something that many current gamers can learn from.
In terms of how hard names are to pronounce... yeah we sure do hate pronoucing Pau Gasol, Ichiro, Nadal, Manu Ginobli, DONGRAEGU, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Muhammad Ali, and many many others. Hell, our president's name is Barrack Obama. I think it's a fear that's unwarranted. In fact, I'd say it's harder to say Nony or Idra because who the hell knows how to pronounce those names without hearing it over and over on a stream? I think people today even disagree on how Nony was supposed to be pronounced. Hell, I don't even know how Klogon is supposed to be pronounced. I was with you until the very end lol. Nony and Idra and even Klogon are all pronounced exactly as they are written, gamer tags are in general far easier to pronounce than someone's real name.
Haha, so I'm curious. When you say my name, do you say the "Klog" part like clog or like clover. i hear both when people say it aloud, and now I'm not even sure what I think I should go by.
For Nony, do you say like "noon" or "know" for the first syllable. I've always thought it was know-knee and I believe that's how people said it during TSL, but I think Tyler says he's always thought it was noon-y in his own head. And I know a lot of people thought it was noon-y, too.
And I know casters used to call Idra both eye-dra (like I'd) and id-dra (like idiot). It wasn't until later on that it became standardized.
So no, these names are not as intuitive as you'd think they are because a lot of them are in fact either made up words or exotic foreign words mashed up into some meaning.
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EPT
