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[Utility] SC2 Scrapbook (Build Order Notebook V2) - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
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legatus legionis
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands559 Posts
November 21 2011 17:45 GMT
#21
I posted a ton of feedback in the thread of the previous version and was a bit sad when, but could understand, you said the utility did what you wanted to and would not get developed further. So I'm once again very excited to see this pop up because it truly has a ton of potential.
Veritas
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom106 Posts
November 21 2011 17:54 GMT
#22
On November 22 2011 02:40 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2011 02:34 Veritas. wrote:
On November 22 2011 02:28 -swordguy wrote:
In customs this is fine for refining/practicing builds but on ladder I would definitely consider this cheating. This is a real time strategy game and requires people to learn builds and counters if they want to achieve some kind of success. The person that remembers their build and the counters will have the advantage and should win. By adding the build order overlays you take out that important part of the game ( I know you still have to execute the build but remembering it is just as important) and that makes it easier for people to play. The game is meant to take a lot of practice in order to learn/optimize the builds and this program will help with that but using a 3rd party source just isn't acceptable in my opinion (and in the TOS).


And the difference between using this instead of notepad is... ?

Having the build in your eyeline rather than having to alt tab or look at a different monitor is considerably easier. Although I'm excited to hear your method of learning a build that doesn't involve looking at it and then doing it.

A question to you: have you ever thought about creating a more complete SC2 environment? I've always thought that to properly learn SC2, especially if you intend to be a bit more professional about it, it should be important to reflect on your games, to set goals for future practice sessions and such. In short, you need a professional environment to help you manage these aspects. And while it's possible to just write stuff down in notepad, it seems like there could be a bit of a market for managing software here.

Sounds a lot like something you could do with a calendar, unless I'm underthinking it?

On November 22 2011 02:45 legatus legionis wrote:
I posted a ton of feedback in the thread of the previous version and was a bit sad when, but could understand, you said the utility did what you wanted to and would not get developed further. So I'm once again very excited to see this pop up because it truly has a ton of potential.


Unless I can think of more cool shit to add, I want to add unit images, fix the overlay fps issues and maybe make a build database server. Then I'm done. For real this time
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
November 21 2011 18:03 GMT
#23
On November 22 2011 02:54 Veritas. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2011 02:40 Grumbels wrote:
On November 22 2011 02:34 Veritas. wrote:
On November 22 2011 02:28 -swordguy wrote:
In customs this is fine for refining/practicing builds but on ladder I would definitely consider this cheating. This is a real time strategy game and requires people to learn builds and counters if they want to achieve some kind of success. The person that remembers their build and the counters will have the advantage and should win. By adding the build order overlays you take out that important part of the game ( I know you still have to execute the build but remembering it is just as important) and that makes it easier for people to play. The game is meant to take a lot of practice in order to learn/optimize the builds and this program will help with that but using a 3rd party source just isn't acceptable in my opinion (and in the TOS).


And the difference between using this instead of notepad is... ?

Having the build in your eyeline rather than having to alt tab or look at a different monitor is considerably easier. Although I'm excited to hear your method of learning a build that doesn't involve looking at it and then doing it.

A question to you: have you ever thought about creating a more complete SC2 environment? I've always thought that to properly learn SC2, especially if you intend to be a bit more professional about it, it should be important to reflect on your games, to set goals for future practice sessions and such. In short, you need a professional environment to help you manage these aspects. And while it's possible to just write stuff down in notepad, it seems like there could be a bit of a market for managing software here.

Sounds a lot like something you could do with a calendar, unless I'm underthinking it?

Show nested quote +
On November 22 2011 02:45 legatus legionis wrote:
I posted a ton of feedback in the thread of the previous version and was a bit sad when, but could understand, you said the utility did what you wanted to and would not get developed further. So I'm once again very excited to see this pop up because it truly has a ton of potential.


Unless I can think of more cool shit to add, I want to add unit images, fix the overlay fps issues and maybe make a build database server. Then I'm done. For real this time

No, like, if you're a professional chess player you'd have computer software that details an incredible amount of builds for you that you can quickly check through. I imagine you can also experiment with moves and such and have chess AIs to test your builds.
Now for Starcraft 2, suppose you live in a teamhouse, you're being coached, you're a professional that plays the game every day. Wouldn't it be helpful then to have something similar in scope? A constantly updated list of build orders, with example replays, that you could also overlay on the screen if you wanted to. And this would be shared between the entire teamhouse, coaches could write comments next to it. Part of the program could also be a calendar, a notebook/diary, and so on. So kind of like your program mixed with liquipedia, except not public, but private. I don't know exactly how it should be, but I guess I can imagine it being useful for players or coaches.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Veritas
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom106 Posts
November 21 2011 18:05 GMT
#24
On November 22 2011 03:03 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2011 02:54 Veritas. wrote:
On November 22 2011 02:40 Grumbels wrote:
On November 22 2011 02:34 Veritas. wrote:
On November 22 2011 02:28 -swordguy wrote:
In customs this is fine for refining/practicing builds but on ladder I would definitely consider this cheating. This is a real time strategy game and requires people to learn builds and counters if they want to achieve some kind of success. The person that remembers their build and the counters will have the advantage and should win. By adding the build order overlays you take out that important part of the game ( I know you still have to execute the build but remembering it is just as important) and that makes it easier for people to play. The game is meant to take a lot of practice in order to learn/optimize the builds and this program will help with that but using a 3rd party source just isn't acceptable in my opinion (and in the TOS).


And the difference between using this instead of notepad is... ?

Having the build in your eyeline rather than having to alt tab or look at a different monitor is considerably easier. Although I'm excited to hear your method of learning a build that doesn't involve looking at it and then doing it.

A question to you: have you ever thought about creating a more complete SC2 environment? I've always thought that to properly learn SC2, especially if you intend to be a bit more professional about it, it should be important to reflect on your games, to set goals for future practice sessions and such. In short, you need a professional environment to help you manage these aspects. And while it's possible to just write stuff down in notepad, it seems like there could be a bit of a market for managing software here.

Sounds a lot like something you could do with a calendar, unless I'm underthinking it?

On November 22 2011 02:45 legatus legionis wrote:
I posted a ton of feedback in the thread of the previous version and was a bit sad when, but could understand, you said the utility did what you wanted to and would not get developed further. So I'm once again very excited to see this pop up because it truly has a ton of potential.


Unless I can think of more cool shit to add, I want to add unit images, fix the overlay fps issues and maybe make a build database server. Then I'm done. For real this time

No, like, if you're a professional chess player you'd have computer software that details an incredible amount of builds for you that you can quickly check through. I imagine you can also experiment with moves and such and have chess AIs to test your builds.
Now for Starcraft 2, suppose you live in a teamhouse, you're being coached, you're a professional that plays the game every day. Wouldn't it be helpful then to have something similar in scope? A constantly updated list of build orders, with example replays, that you could also overlay on the screen if you wanted to. And this would be shared between the entire teamhouse, coaches could write comments next to it. Part of the program could also be a calendar, a notebook/diary, and so on. So kind of like your program mixed with liquipedia, except not public, but private. I don't know exactly how it should be, but I guess I can imagine it being useful for players or coaches.


Seems incredibly niche. Cool idea I suppose, but these things already exist. Albeit in multiple separate programs, but still.
Mitchlew
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia428 Posts
November 21 2011 18:21 GMT
#25
Not sure how to get this working. Can have overlay on desktop but doesn't work when i open scii?
CptCutter
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom370 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-21 18:23:41
November 21 2011 18:23 GMT
#26
On November 22 2011 02:29 PiLoKo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2011 02:15 rasers wrote:
holy fuck... actually start learning the game and dont let some programs or the game itself do everything for u guys...
now go make a bot that makes the build order for u so u can go afk the first 5minutes or what? ... rofl


Yeah, keep yourself close minded not to know this is a great practice tool.

Keep the good work, this one is great for all those low league players who can´t do a BO, this will help them a lot improve their game.


wait what? you do understand that 'build orders' passed the 15 food supply for any race are not required until high diamond right? if you want to advance from the lower leagues all you need to work on is your macro and decision making. not when i should place something... im high masters and im only now starting to formulate build orders.

good players are not good because of a build order, but because of their decision making and macro ability.

the reason im against applications like this is because they can be used abusively.
Grenadieris
Profile Joined November 2010
Latvia33 Posts
November 21 2011 18:31 GMT
#27
On November 22 2011 02:28 -swordguy wrote:
In customs this is fine for refining/practicing builds but on ladder I would definitely consider this cheating. This is a real time strategy game and requires people to learn builds and counters if they want to achieve some kind of success. The person that remembers their build and the counters will have the advantage and should win. By adding the build order overlays you take out that important part of the game ( I know you still have to execute the build but remembering it is just as important) and that makes it easier for people to play. The game is meant to take a lot of practice in order to learn/optimize the builds and this program will help with that but using a 3rd party source just isn't acceptable in my opinion (and in the TOS).

And you'd be dead wrong. It is not cheating.
SOOO MANY BANELINGS!!!!
iamcaustic
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada1509 Posts
November 21 2011 18:35 GMT
#28
I wonder if this would fall under violation of Blizzard's ToS for using third party programs. Maybe not though, since I suppose it's no different than people who follow Artosis' advice and have a little SC2 build order notebook by their computer.

Seems really neat, regardless! Good job on the effort put in.
Twitter: @iamcaustic
Balgrog
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1221 Posts
November 21 2011 18:47 GMT
#29
I think that if people make sure to use this as just a learning tool it will be great for nailing down builds when you first start working on one. I just hope people don't get dependent on this!
The only way to attack structure is with chaos.
Damwing
Profile Joined May 2011
Switzerland19 Posts
November 21 2011 18:48 GMT
#30
sry dude appreciate your work but this is gay :/ i know many ppl just have it on paper but this takes away all the creativity from the players and theyll just stomp through a BO...
Veritas
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom106 Posts
November 21 2011 18:53 GMT
#31
On November 22 2011 03:21 Mitchlew wrote:
Not sure how to get this working. Can have overlay on desktop but doesn't work when i open scii?


You must be running Windowed Mode.
driftme
Profile Joined June 2010
United States360 Posts
November 21 2011 18:53 GMT
#32
On November 22 2011 03:35 stormfoxSC wrote:
I wonder if this would fall under violation of Blizzard's ToS for using third party programs. Maybe not though, since I suppose it's no different than people who follow Artosis' advice and have a little SC2 build order notebook by their computer.

Seems really neat, regardless! Good job on the effort put in.


First of all, the term you're looking for is Terms of Use, not Terms of Service.

and no... it doesnt.
http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/about/termsofuse.html
Veritas
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom106 Posts
November 21 2011 18:55 GMT
#33
On November 22 2011 03:48 Damwing wrote:
sry dude appreciate your work but this is gay :/ i know many ppl just have it on paper but this takes away all the creativity from the players and theyll just stomp through a BO...


Unless you're in the top 1% you've pretty much got no business trying to be creative. Even then, do you think pros just do it live 100% of the time?
MiyaviTeddy
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Canada697 Posts
November 21 2011 18:56 GMT
#34
This is actually pretty useful for off-racing (or learning a new race). It's hard to remember BO's first thing and its a pain in the ass to actually alt-tab back and fourth to make sure you got the BO down.
Aiyeeeee
Non0
Profile Joined April 2010
United States100 Posts
November 21 2011 19:02 GMT
#35
I don't understand why people are saying this is cheating. I regularly use a second monitor with a build order notepad and an overlay is roughly the same thing except placed in a more convenient location.

Even with notes it is difficult to time out a build order to perfection, the only thing that gets you there is practice with it. If you have to read the build order as you're executing, you're not executing at the highest level.
Teraka
Profile Joined November 2011
France1 Post
November 21 2011 19:05 GMT
#36
On November 22 2011 03:55 Veritas. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2011 03:48 Damwing wrote:
sry dude appreciate your work but this is gay :/ i know many ppl just have it on paper but this takes away all the creativity from the players and theyll just stomp through a BO...


Unless you're in the top 1% you've pretty much got no business trying to be creative. Even then, do you think pros just do it live 100% of the time?

I don't think that's true. You're definitely not going to come up with a new brilliant build order that has its place in the current meta-game, but you can definitely throw off your opponent if you know a minimum what you're doing.
I actually think you have a better chance of winning by trying a creative strategy with well-defined objectives rather than blindly following a BO and not knowing how to follow it up.
Glacierz
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1244 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-21 19:08:43
November 21 2011 19:06 GMT
#37
On November 22 2011 03:23 CptCutter wrote:
good players are not good because of a build order, but because of their decision making and macro ability.


I disagree. There are clearly pro replays with extremely well timed builds designed to counter a particular strategy up to the nearest seconds. These builds have been practiced and optimized by the pro players who spent hundreds of hours perfecting it, and the quicker people adopt to them, the quicker sc2 evolves. Like you said, this is very beneficial for the pro-wannabes, don't see anything wrong with that.
buzzkill568
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada56 Posts
November 21 2011 19:18 GMT
#38
On November 22 2011 02:15 rasers wrote:
holy fuck... actually start learning the game and dont let some programs or the game itself do everything for u guys...
now go make a bot that makes the build order for u so u can go afk the first 5minutes or what? ... rofl


Shut up. Seriously. Obviously no one is going to use this during ladder games or there fucking retarded. These things have been around since bw and you can continue to respond like so but you just fill the community with more shit. Please do us all a favor and just stop it. Obviously for lower end players it helps to have a build order written down. Having it on screen is a stretch but who cares. You obviously are butt hurt about bronze - gold people getting better. :S
Bap181
Profile Joined November 2011
France13 Posts
November 21 2011 20:21 GMT
#39
I always have new/Bo's I'm not comfortable with on my second screen when I play, this is no big deal, and it certainly isnt anything new. I'm not sure why everyone is getting so excited.

The BO itself in general isnt that usefull anyway, even assuming you could follow it perfectly, it doesnt mean you understand the BO or what your trying to achieve; its like doing a reactor helion opening and keeping them in your base.

Understanding the BO is much more important than excecuting it perfectly, once you understand the BO, nailing it down is the next step. What am I supposed to do? Learn every single Build Order by heart before playing? Play twice the amount of games to learn it under the pretence that looking at a BO while playing is cheating? Doing the build and having something to help you along in the game is incredibly usefull.

I doubt this gives any significant advantage in any league anyway, good people are good enough to not need it, and bad people will fudge something up anyway, having the BO right there can actually be quite the distraction.

More-over I've seen pros alt-tab out to notepad files with BO's on them during ladder games.
rasers
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden691 Posts
November 21 2011 20:45 GMT
#40
On November 22 2011 04:18 buzzkill568 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2011 02:15 rasers wrote:
holy fuck... actually start learning the game and dont let some programs or the game itself do everything for u guys...
now go make a bot that makes the build order for u so u can go afk the first 5minutes or what? ... rofl


Shut up. Seriously. Obviously no one is going to use this during ladder games or there fucking retarded. These things have been around since bw and you can continue to respond like so but you just fill the community with more shit. Please do us all a favor and just stop it. Obviously for lower end players it helps to have a build order written down. Having it on screen is a stretch but who cares. You obviously are butt hurt about bronze - gold people getting better. :S

if they need all that programs 2 get better i doubt they get better and i couldnt care less about if they get better or not.

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