EPTI think TvT is the most developed, so many playstyles and all units are viable in one way or another.
Most Developed Match-Up - Page 6
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
I think TvT is the most developed, so many playstyles and all units are viable in one way or another. | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
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kabar
United States616 Posts
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Simonius
Germany98 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote: Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. | ||
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Simonius
Germany98 Posts
What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. | ||
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TheRealFluid
United States501 Posts
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pPingu
Switzerland2892 Posts
On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote: What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. This type of play is really weak against early roaches and many terrans die to roach push when they do this build It worked really well because dimaga, morrow and idra didn't go really (or not at all) early roaches | ||
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Simonius
Germany98 Posts
On December 04 2011 11:13 pPingu wrote: This type of play is really weak against early roaches and many terrans die to roach push when they do this build It worked really well because dimaga, morrow and idra didn't go really (or not at all) early roaches Many terrans die? Maybe if you do a nonreactive 7 roach rush but certainly not against reactive roaches. Terran is practically invincible in the early game If roaches are such an easy solution why do pros try to not use roaches to the point where they try to defend double reactor hellion on crevasse with ling queen spine? That tells me that roaches have to somehow suck in tvz. And the last game idra vs puma showed it. the reactive roach where unable to do a thing. They could not even deny the 6:40 terran third..........and had to walk all the way back because of two full bunkers.......... During the push you could also see how bad the map control is that roaches provide. The hellions run just past them and tried to roast drones regardless. If you commit to roaches and it turns out to be a marauder hellion push you are dead. The problem is after hellions it could be anything. Ridiculously greedy expands, more hellions, hellion drops, hellion marine drops, hellion thor rush, hellion marauder, hellion marine tank push if the terran was good and didn't lose the hellions and hellion banshee of course. Hellions are just far too good. You can not nerf thenm becasue the hellion on its own is a completely dominating unit in the early game. They outrange queens, roaches have not the dps, you cannot possible surround more than 4 hellions wih speedlings at all. They just get instantly roasted even without blue flame. The hellion is just a too good early game unit because of its design. It is depressing to see that top zergs like morrow die to completely standard stuff because of hellions. They don't take damage like a terran does if you deny his expansion they outright die against mass hellions. Two games on two different maps. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote: What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. 2 tournament ago, every terran opened hellions in TvZ and got punished hard. There's a lot of roaches timing that work against greedy follow up to hellions. And even if hellions make you safe, it's not like opening hellions is getting an enormous advantage. oO | ||
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
PvZ has potential. Imo a really good PvZ game is as entertaining as anything else, with lots of stuff happening and lots of units used, but it seems like it's more rare that you get games like this. Still so many 2 base allins and stuff happen in that matchup. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On November 22 2011 00:50 xOff wrote: TvP Should DEFINITELY not be on the good matchups.. Terran cannot move away from T1 Bio, asides to support ghosts and vikings. That is not developed at all. Not to mention all games lately just focus on protoss turtling hardcore to get a deathball or doing weird timing all ins. This is largely at fault to terran advantage early game and protoss advantage late. Yeah, but that's not the fault of the Terran. Protoss on the other hand have thrown almost every unit in the tech tree at Terran Bio with varied success at different stages of the meta game. Protoss have a ton of options. Theres also no 'advantage' late game. If a protoss doesn't land any storms/loses his colossus he will melt. The meta game has shifted vastly as to which race dominated late game and it still goes down to who comes out of the mid game with the better economy, and who can engage the best. | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
On December 04 2011 19:25 Noocta wrote: 2 tournament ago, every terran opened hellions in TvZ and got punished hard. There's a lot of roaches timing that work against greedy follow up to hellions. And even if hellions make you safe, it's not like opening hellions is getting an enormous advantage. oO But Terrans have figured out the roach timings. That's why no one does them any more. Just a week after IPL3, Stephano lost to Boxer because he did a stupid roach timing vs reactor hellions. If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard. | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On December 04 2011 20:40 Micket wrote: But Terrans have figured out the roach timings. That's why no one does them any more. Just a week after IPL3, Stephano lost to Boxer because he did a stupid roach timing vs reactor hellions. If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard. You are making it sound like TvZ is heavily Terran favored, when in fact it is the most balanced non-mirror matchup. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On December 04 2011 20:43 SarcasmMonster wrote: You are making it sound like TvZ is heavily Terran favored, when in fact it is the most balanced non-mirror matchup. No he's not, he's clarifying a fact. Where in his post does he cite incorrect match-up statistics, or imply Terran is ultimately stronger? | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On December 04 2011 20:49 Tyrant0 wrote: No he's not, he's clarifying a fact. Where in his post does he cite incorrect match-up statistics, or imply Terran is ultimately stronger? If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard. ie. Zergs have no way of dealing with the goto build in TvZ, meaning that there is an imbalance. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On December 04 2011 20:51 SarcasmMonster wrote: If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard. ie. Zergs have no way of dealing with the goto build in TvZ, meaning that there is an imbalance. That's a huge assumption. It first goes from Zerg not having a build that can punish Terrans for being greedy and over committing with hellions, to Zerg having absolutely no way of dealing with the build at all and it's imbalanced. Seem's like you're just arguing with strawmans. | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
On December 04 2011 20:51 SarcasmMonster wrote: If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard. ie. Zergs have no way of dealing with the goto build in TvZ, meaning that there is an imbalance. If that's your way of thinking, I don't know what to say. My comment was merely saying that reactor hellions will ALWAYS do their job. They will deny scouting, prevent a third, stop creep spread OR they will force roaches. Either situation is beneficial to Terran. By your way of thinking, 15 hatch vs Terran is imbalanced. Terrans cannot punish a Zerg for going 15 hatch, therefore they cannot deal with the goto ZvT build, therefore imba!! | ||
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Cel.erity
United States4890 Posts
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