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So I think everyone has his favorite match-up to watch and I think everyone knows about basic compositions and timings and everyone has his own theorys about "gameending" compositions. ("infestor/broodlord", "mass ghost", "Deathball"...)
But all this usually relates back to the question: "What can be done by race 1, when race 2 has reached a certain level of development?"
Ultimatly in a game that is wellbalanced at all stages of the game, there should always be an answer to this question, even if it requires a certain amount of (achievable) preparation and even if the only possible outcome is a draw.
At least, that should be the aim of balancing. (not relying on blindcounters & coinflips, everything can be defended out of an even position)
Poll: Which one is the most developed matchup?TvZ (485) 58% TvT (263) 31% PvZ (32) 4% PvT (22) 3% PvP (19) 2% ZvZ (18) 2% 839 total votes Your vote: Which one is the most developed matchup? (Vote): PvP
(Vote): PvT
(Vote): PvZ
(Vote): TvT
(Vote): TvZ
(Vote): ZvZ
So, here are my charts of matchups:
the good ones:
1) TvT: The MU seems pretty solved. Mech has the potential to beat every other ground style and then gets countered by Air which can counter every ground style, ultimatly forcing a stalemate on mass BC, Viking, Raven, Turret that can only be won if you got an advantage/better control.
2) TvZ: Various possibilities for both players through all game, usually resulting in a Tank/Thor based ground army + support units (ghosts, vikings, marines, marauders) for Terran and a Infestorbased army for Zerg (Infestor/Broodlord, Infestor/Ultralisk/baneling) + reinforcements. Still the MU hardly ever goes to a stalemate situation in which the defender has such a huge advantage, that the aggressor can't force an engagement --> still some room to improve
3) TvP: very stable compositionwise, but judging from latest results it seems like a well turteling protoss has an advantage over the biobased terran forces. ("double forge builds")
For me this looks like terran has done very well until now, but the good winrates are relying a lot on early wins, while Terrans get stuck on MMMVG in the lategame and at some point simply can't match the Protoss anymore, if terran didn't get an advantage earlier. I think there is still room to improve compositionwise for the terrans in the lategame.
the bad ones:
4) PvZ: 57:43 winrate for Protoss in the early days, the same for Zerg these days. I think there is not a lot more to say, the match-up simply seems unstable. Lots of variations in openings, timings and compositions makes it pretty hard to predict how a lategame scenario looks like. (mass mutalisks, infestor/BL, banelingdrops vs mass voidrays, "usual" deathballs, HT/Archon armies, mass blink stalker all has seen a lot of play, depending on the situation)
Usually the games end with a failed or a successful aggressive move, very rarely we see situations in which some form of stalemate occurs.
5) ZvZ: this is a really hard one to decide upon it's stability. Games vary from 1base vs 1base ling/bling wars, to stable midgame roach based or mutaliskbased compositions.
I'd say the matchup is pretty stable until it comes to hive tech, at least as long as mutalisks are kept out of the equation. After that it becomes a wild guessing game. Broodlords and Ultralisks both have seen play... and both have obvious problems. Mass spinecrawlers seems reasonable... as long as the maps allow them to participate in games. I'd say the matchup can be pretty stable, but only as long as the players keep on mirroring each other.
6) PvP: ok, clearly my last choice, and who can blame me? PvP was held back for over half a year by 4gate. The current metagame is simply younger than the metagame of every other matchup. Also it is still very wild. Blink stalkers, mass colossi, phoenix, chargelots and archons all seem to find a place in compositions. Canons and upgrades exist but seem a little secondary, compared to colossus numbers and phoenix openings. I can see a lot of potential in this matchup (spread defensive colossi, phoenix vs phoenix play), but the strength of rushes seem to allow only for a very slow rate of development.
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Definetly TvZ.
It's all about the little things IMMVP does to get an advtange. Fake pushes, counter attack defense & muta manipulation are all excellent indicators of high level play.
The most interesting comparison to me is PvZ, which feels much more about mind games and suprises.
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TvZ by far! It has remained the same for a long time and most people know what to do in most situations. You can also do different things and I feel that the matchup is very clear and "figured out"
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ZvT and TvZ both have a converging midgame, even two, that can work against the opponent if played correctly. Because of that, it has a lot of tiny details and advantages to get.
ZvP and PvZ however don't really have a converging midgame, but a very fluid set of reactions that can either put the Zerg or Protoss behind. I'd say that they both have one of the most experimentation to it, but they aren't really all that stable. I believe that the people with a high winrate in PvZ or ZvP just have much better decisionmaking than their opponents, which is rather hard to train and can only really come from making a lot of in game decisions over a long period of time.
ZvZ is rather well developped at the highest levels. But the nuances are pretty much invisible to the average viewer. Mindgames are also really strong in this match up and can sometimes decide the game really quickly. Coming back is nigh impossible so...
I'm indifferent to the other match ups because I don't play them. I watch them but have absolutely no authority whatsoever over it.
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I don't know how you can say something else than TvZ. Such a deep match up with lot of micro involved and some very neat transitions between phases.
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I dont get it, though im a protoss player but i love watching a good TvZ, i can understand it well (i think) compared to say ZvZ
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No TvT? The mass amount of builds + cool tricks + sick cheeses have shown how many people have put effort into their tvt.
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Yes ZvT is the most figured out matchup, why I don't enjoy it as much as others. I prefer chaotic & mindfucking slugfests that sometimes develops in a ZvP matchup. Yes you can pretend that's happen more often in TvZ but I disagree as the unit composition (heck even the strategies) is the same like always as opposed to ZvP.
The only thing I hate about ZvP is the roach-all-ins/void-ray-all-ins. If the match up can evolve away from that, it's going to be the most entertaining match up IMHO.
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I agree with you about TvP being stable up to some point. TvP is about early one base very strong pushes by Terran and late game 2-3 base strong pushes by toss if toss survives. Also most of the battles results with rolling one side, rarely results with both sides backed up. Toss is forced to form a deathball because of the lack of individual unith strength and dependence of upgrades. It is stable in an unstable condition. Like order in chaos.I think there is not much room for improvement in this MU until some major changes like new units etc.
I thought PvZ is the most entertaining MU now. As you mentioned lots of variations in openings, timings and compositions make this MU insanely surprising. Also all kind of composition is viable in different scenarios unlike TvP (like mech vs toss or heavy stargate play etc ). It needs some improvement surely and open every kind of crazy play.
In addition to your thoughts about TvT, I should add MMA proves bio play over mech in some cases with insane control. Mech is not the king of all ground cases right now.
Mirror MUs generally heavily relies on micro ,the idea of not over committing and surprise. All have rooms for late game improvements (less for TvT).
I do not expect any more miraculous breakthrough in MUs until HOTS release.
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honestly i feel it's TvT. especially with terran specialization in slayers. TvT is the most played match up (or at least in the GSL), and terrans are practicing TvT more than anything else. with so much hours put into TvT, i think TvT is the most developed match up. the only new things that are coming so far is just the starting builds / cheeses. the metagame has pretty much been solved now, unless we start to see ghost snipes being used on... marines and ghosts.
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The best matchup is probably TvT -.-.
ZvT lategame-Ghosts seem just stupid... Else i would vote this.
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TvZ has a very relevant stale mate situation late game. On maps where the terran can split the map and bunkers in the middle with tank/ghost/pf/thor/turrets and sometimes endless nukes the game gets very, very stale.
The play on the highest level seems to be centered around marine tank vs muta ling bling for mor then a half year now with hellions/thors making minor appearances as core army units.
In my opinion most development potential lies in ghost timings, nuke usage, terran mass expands and air styles. Air seems nearly abaddoned aside from mass raven late game because of the dominance of mutalisks and the hard counter corruptors are to battle cruisers but the recent hunter seeker buff could possibly change that.
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On November 21 2011 23:50 Laserist wrote:
In addition to your thoughts about TvT, I should add MMA proves bio play over mech in some cases with insane control. Mech is not the king of all ground cases right now.
I disagree. MMA showed that starting with Mech might be wrong. F.e: In his games vs MVP he always went bio into biomech, which if he didn't take huge advantages from his early bio play and won the games early might have led to pure mech or air play. Of course this is a little theorycrafty, but I think MMA shows that everyone who "goes Mech" might be wrong, because he can get an economical advantage through marineplay, hold on through marauder play and ultimatly have the same/similar army in the lategame, due to the 200supply and 3/3 upgrade cap. (but of a better economy - at least on maps with a lot of expansions)
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TvZ has the good old Brood War flavor, and quite solid standards with dominant compositions.
PvZ is definitely the worst in my eyes. Nothing that anyone ever did in that matchup seemed quite "right", especially on Protoss end (so-so on Zerg end). I quit Protoss because of it as I simply didn't know what to do nor do I admire anyone's play enough to learn from it. HerO plays an inspiring PvZ every once in a dozen games and Nani just had a few really good ones, but that's just not enough for the matchup as a whole.
Out of mirror matchups, TvT used to be brilliant for some time (Jinro vs Ensnare in GSL was mind blowing), but now that people are using bio again it just seems twitchy and volatile with plenty of cheap abuse. ZvZ is the only matchup that I consider to be better than its Brood War equivalent. I always though PvP had a lot of potential once the bullshit builds get shut down too (which is kinda happening right now).
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Probably TvT because the dynamics of positioning is so important in the matchup that lasts the entire game. ZvZ is either volatile sling/bling or roach massing usually. Z v anything else has issues with end game army fights, so everything rests with how much base restriction and defense zerg can put up. PvT has issue with emp and bio power being too dominant. PvP is fairly monotonous as well, somewhat like zvz after sling/bling.
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TvT is the most developed overall. When watching the pros it feels like players generally have a firm understanding on how the game should flow and more than any matchup it can go back and forth. Out of all the matches this is the one where a player is most likely to come back from being behind. Not necessarily the most entertaining, however.
TvZ is far more entertaining, the best matchup to watch, but still needs improvement. I feel some areas of the matchup are still underexplored. Especially with what seems to be an onset of mech play from the terrans.
ZvZ can sometimes be up there with TvZ and TvT in entertainment, but I feel like this one is the least understood. This is probably due to the design of zerg. Being the best at tech switching, producing a lot of units at once, and agility makes for a match that can immediately turn on its ass.
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On November 21 2011 23:58 Talin wrote:
TvZ has the good old Brood War flavor, and quite solid standards with dominant compositions.
PvZ is definitely the worst in my eyes. Nothing that anyone ever did in that matchup seemed quite "right", especially on Protoss end (so-so on Zerg end). I quit Protoss because of it as I simply didn't know what to do nor do I admire anyone's play enough to learn from it. HerO plays an inspiring PvZ every once in a dozen games and Nani just had a few really good ones, but that's just not enough for the matchup as a whole.
Out of mirror matchups, TvT used to be brilliant for some time, but now that people are using bio again it just seems twitchy and volatile with plenty of cheap abuse. ZvZ is the only matchup that I consider to be better than its Brood War equivalent. I always though PvP had a lot of potential once the bullshit builds get shut down too (which is kinda happening right now).
Agree mostly.
But i'd like to add that even if PvZ feels stupid right now / since a long time, it MAY have potential. In my opinion
PvZ has the most potential of any match-up to grow into something amazing. But only time and patches will tell.
PvT i feel is the worst. It's stale and boring to watch and play. You don't have lots of exchanges, fluid transitions, position based plays and exciting micro battles. Add to that, from a spectator point of view, until the late game it seems extremely volatile for the Protoss, and in the late game both are afraid to attack into each other and battles end in a frustration quickly fashion mostly with one player losing 30 supply while the other loses everything. And i see terrans having problems with finishing off a Protoss once he has sufficient Gateways, or during fights, when he rewarps 15 new Zealots. It just feels dumb, it's more a theoretical matchup than anything else.
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TvZ seems the least developed to me, we still go mainly marine tank medivac. My vote goes to TvT because that's where the most innovation comes from.
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I personally think TvT is the most developed MU because usually the best player always wins,it's not like ZvZ where in a flip of a coin a player like IM.NesTea can lose to TLAF'Liquid.HayprO
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TvT is definitely the most developed, though TvZ is usually more fun to watch.
I would differ from the OP though and put TvP down on the bad list. It basically swings wildly from a heavily Terran-favored early game to a heavily Protoss-favored late game with a small window in the middle where things are sort of stable. Terran is basically stuck with the same unit comp throughout the entire game and whatever units Protoss is making dictates everything. Even though we have standard play, I hesitate to call it "developed" because a number of Terran units that see common use in TvT and TvZ just don't have a place in TvP. It's a bad, dull, stale matchup.
ZvZ is starting to get somewhere, and it might develop into something good in the future. Right now though it's still highly unstable and nobody really knows how to play past 10-15 minutes. PvP has the same issue.
ZvP is like TvP to a point. Zerg can hit some really powerful timings off of 2 base that annihilate all but the most immaculately prepared Protoss defense, but if Protoss can survive and get the colossus deathball rolling, Zerg has a hard time keeping up. However, we've also seen that once Zerg gets on hive tech with high economy, there are some compositions with brood lords that Protoss has almost no chance against.
Ultimately I think the primary issue with SC2 is that Protoss is pretty badly designed in a few significant ways, and it's gotta get fixed before any matchup involving Protoss becomes fun to watch or play.
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TvT late game has been solved but early OP still a problem. Recently we just see a mass reaper+ghost in GSL beat Hellions marine opening. Clearly Terran still have not yet fully utilize their tech tree to the max.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51484 Posts
TvT and TvZ seem to be the most developed i think!
Always seem to get the best matches out of them, and they are played at high levels the most.
I wouldnt consider any protos match up the most developed yet considering they have still to find the way there race is to be played STILL...sometimes protos own a match up for a few weeks, then they get destroyed in it and complain unbalance for another week or 10 or months....
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It's actually a bit sad... all 3 of the PvX matchups seem "undeveloped" compared to the rest of the matchups in the game. I think it's just the design of the race in general that has some issues, but it's hard to pinpoint exactly where. Some examples:
-Warpgate removes all concepts of defender's advantage
-Colossus is just a boring unit compared to reaver and often becomes the center-piece of the army in all 3 matchups in the mid-late game
-Their armies are too ball-centric (not necessarily a bad thing, as it was the same in BW but the balls need to be more interesting)
-Forcefields can be frustrating to watch sometimes because they usually seem like an all-or-nothing spell (they completely limit the other player's ability to micro)
-Most PvZ games end up being either 2-base all-in or turtle to 200/200 death ball game
I can't really even predict how the matchups will evolve, but I do think something needs to be done about the colossus for HOTS.
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TvP Should DEFINITELY not be on the good matchups.. Terran cannot move away from T1 Bio, asides to support ghosts and vikings. That is not developed at all.
Not to mention all games lately just focus on protoss turtling hardcore to get a deathball or doing weird timing all ins. This is largely at fault to terran advantage early game and protoss advantage late.
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On November 22 2011 00:41 teamsolid wrote:-Forcefields can be frustrating to watch sometimes because they usually seem like an all-or-nothing spell (they completely limit the other player's ability to micro)
Moving your units as a clump is not micro. Using stimpack or guardian shielf isn't micro. A-moving Roaches isn't micro..
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On November 22 2011 01:02 xCenasfu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 00:41 teamsolid wrote:-Forcefields can be frustrating to watch sometimes because they usually seem like an all-or-nothing spell (they completely limit the other player's ability to micro) Moving your units as a clump is not micro. Using stimpack or guardian shielf isn't micro. A-moving Roaches isn't micro..
I think you missed the point lol.... How exactly do you micro units that can't move?
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On November 22 2011 00:50 xOff wrote:
TvP Should DEFINITELY not be on the good matchups.. Terran cannot move away from T1 Bio, asides to support ghosts and vikings. That is not developed at all.
Not to mention all games lately just focus on protoss turtling hardcore to get a deathball or doing weird timing all ins. This is largely at fault to terran advantage early game and protoss advantage late.
It's a personal opinion. In my eyes, a good terran can stand up to any Protoss composition in the lategame with properly played MMMVG (faster expanding then P, good snipes and EMPs, good upgrades, proper mobile play with drops and superior positioning)
Also every Protoss can turtle through any early-midgame aggression and still get a good piece of the map.
But I think it is rather map dependend. Terran can't be to far away from protoss, yet the map has to be open enough to allow for good kiting. That's where I think terrans can still improve (or have to improve)
Also there is no denying that we see a lot of lategame/stability focused play in the matchup (upgrades, lots of bases) though terran compositions could need a dash more of hightech units (but already using all nonmech T1-T2 units).
But compared to PvZ, PvP and ZvZ it is pretty stable imo, with these 3MUs getting completly dominated by wild allins.
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TvT is the only matchup where I see every single unit being used with a purpose. The only unit you could say doesn't have some key role is the Reaper who shouldn't be in the game anyway.
TvZ is close by though, and by far the most entertaining IMO. Pretty much every unit but the Hydralisk has a purpose but I don't think its developed the complex web of counters TvT has with mech, bio, and air all having such different interactions, but that may just be the result of a mirror vs non-mirror.
PvP is in the fucking stone age.
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On November 21 2011 23:54 Velr wrote:
The best matchup is probably TvT -.-.
ZvT lategame-Ghosts seem just stupid... Else i would vote this.
This thread is not asking about the 'best matchup' just he most 'developed matchup'. Which i would have to say ZvT is the most developed at this point. PvZ being the most underdeveloped.
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I think T v T is the most matured mu, closely followed by T v Z which still has a lot of room for growth on both sides.
I think t v p will never really reach a super interesting level because too much stuff was nerfed for both races. Really there aren't a lot of options left for either race so its always pretty bland. I've never cared for z v p, it's the most boring of the non mirror matches for me but then again I don't play either race so maybe I'm just biased.
I don't think anyone can argue that P v P is by far the least developed MU but I don't think that's necessarily because of the players. I mean when both sides have warp gates....yeah, you get some pretty stupid and unforgiving matches.
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On November 22 2011 01:07 sereniity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 01:02 xCenasfu wrote:On November 22 2011 00:41 teamsolid wrote:-Forcefields can be frustrating to watch sometimes because they usually seem like an all-or-nothing spell (they completely limit the other player's ability to micro) Moving your units as a clump is not micro. Using stimpack or guardian shielf isn't micro. A-moving Roaches isn't micro.. I think you missed the point lol.... How exactly do you micro units that can't move?
Exactly, Fungal Growth is frustrating to watch.
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Before Blizzard nerfed mech and made the matchup a retard a move bio fest TvT was by far the most developed. Now it's ZvT by default.
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I lol'd so hard at the ones who picked PvP or ZvZ
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On November 22 2011 01:57 fatworthlessvirgin wrote:
Before Blizzard nerfed mech and made the matchup a retard a move bio fest TvT was by far the most developed. Now it's ZvT by default.
lol? Marine/tank/medi in t v t is very micro intensive, certainly way more than just pure mech. I find mech vs mech highly boring in sc2.
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I feel it's TvZ, TvT is close but TvZ just feels the most fleshed out and balanced once the 5 rax reaper and maps became balanced out.
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On November 22 2011 00:41 teamsolid wrote:
It's actually a bit sad... all 3 of the PvX matchups seem "undeveloped" compared to the rest of the matchups in the game. I think it's just the design of the race in general that has some issues, but it's hard to pinpoint exactly where. Some examples:
-Warpgate removes all concepts of defender's advantage
-Colossus is just a boring unit compared to reaver and often becomes the center-piece of the army in all 3 matchups in the mid-late game
-Their armies are too ball-centric (not necessarily a bad thing, as it was the same in BW but the balls need to be more interesting)
-Forcefields can be frustrating to watch sometimes because they usually seem like an all-or-nothing spell (they completely limit the other player's ability to micro)
-Most PvZ games end up being either 2-base all-in or turtle to 200/200 death ball game
I can't really even predict how the matchups will evolve, but I do think something needs to be done about the colossus for HOTS.
I think it's also because Protoss matchups have had the most influential patches over time, so the PvX matchup never becomes stable.
Example: Tons of changes to Protoss early game in an attempt to make PvP better
(Immortal range, pylon radius, ramp warp-in, WG research time nerfed, Zealot/Sentry build times changed).
Most other changes to the game have been about the mid-lategame. The Infestor buff seemed huge but only really effected ZvX mid-lategame, so the early game stayed the same, and it only really changed one unit's viability with the rest of the Zerg composition remaining roughly the same.
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On November 22 2011 00:13 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
I personally think TvT is the most developed MU because usually the best player always wins,it's not like ZvZ where in a flip of a coin a player like IM.NesTea can lose to TLAF'Liquid.HayprO
Don't talk shit about banjo.
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France12873 Posts
Imo for T match-ups :
TvT is basically solved if you go past the early game volability that is still present, because most of the macro games tvt are won by making less mistakes than the opponent, and you can see pure mirror until very late in the game (Mvp vs TOP game 1 of the finals, watch it you'll understand :D).
TvZ is not that much developped, since Mvp can't play a lot of bio games, we don't get to see his bio play and he is nearly the only one with his teammate Happy who play mech TvZ so mech is not fully developped.
Plus there are players like MKP who can crush the likes of Leenock & DRG with a ton of different builds & playstyles so the standart play is not fully defined yet.
TvP is such a joke, as you can see with the various terrans all-ins (marine/tank and 1-1-1) and the protoss all-ins, and the fact that no one can win consistently with "standart" MMMVG in a macro game, the match-up is a mindfuck.
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On November 22 2011 01:56 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 01:07 sereniity wrote:On November 22 2011 01:02 xCenasfu wrote:On November 22 2011 00:41 teamsolid wrote:-Forcefields can be frustrating to watch sometimes because they usually seem like an all-or-nothing spell (they completely limit the other player's ability to micro) Moving your units as a clump is not micro. Using stimpack or guardian shielf isn't micro. A-moving Roaches isn't micro.. I think you missed the point lol.... How exactly do you micro units that can't move? Exactly, Fungal Growth is frustrating to watch.
That too yes!
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TvZ by far.
Protoss still have no idea what they're doing in any matchup. Not really their fault, there just isn't much they can do.
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Most
TvT: Early, mid and late game are mapped out. Early game can be fragile, but only if both players go for a 'kill scvs' build. If a player wants to play a macro game, it will be a macro game, because defending is quite easy. Air, bio and mech are all utilised, fast expos, fast tech, early all ins, proxy stuff, everything is used. Every unit in the Terran arsenal is used extensively (literally all of them). Reapers, Ravens, Battlecruisers are relatively common.
TvZ: Zergs still lose to random timing attacks and 2 rax. Terran has a million openers and people still don't know what is good and what isn't.
The other matchups have virtually no true 'metagame'. What's better in ZvP? Ling bling infestor, or roach infestor? Are mutas best ZvZ? In a blink observer vs blink observer game, does the person with earlier blink have advantage, or earlier immortal? Such simple questions have no answers. PvP is especially bad, because people lose games based on micro and not decision making. Zergs are still not able to close out build order advantages. 14/14 players still lose to a 9 pool player after taking 0 dmg
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even though the "population" is quite small, I have to wonder why people could think that PvP is the most developed match-up...it's by far the least, since 4gate vs 4gate pretty much delayed any development for about a year
I totally agree on TvZ - even though zergs still lose to the occasional cheese the builds are "very" tight, which means that the zerg builds usually have the potential to hold everything if they execute perfectly. Which is how it should be. If you do everything right, you hold and it doesn't matter if your opponent is MVP. If you make mistakes, you deserve to lose, even if it may be a low master or we.
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Ummm, a MU doesn´t need to be well balanced n at all points of the MU...
Look at the the BW MUs the balance of power in all MUs shifter constantly through all the game. Or unless I got you wrong..
Overall I think all MUs are quite figured out, but not really to the level of being well developed. Maybe TvT but overall I feel none of the Mus has been quite figured out. Just look at some games, after midgame many MUs feel kinda directionless. ZvT i feel Zergs are still struggling to find the right Hive timming, when to stop massing Mutas and stuff like that. PvZ P feels just lost(But oh well the same could be said about BW PvZ XD) TvP I feel that the T are the ones who have no endgame plan once Colossi and HT hit the field, P actually seem to have a more developed gameplan in that MU.
ZvZ both players seems too lost all game long. Wonky Hive\lair timmings, overaggressive, expansion timmings seem off.
TvT as i said I feel its the more developed one so no complaint here.
PvP has been getting better but lol still needs a long way to go. Early game is quite well figured out but once they have to take the nat i feel the MU feels kinda directionless.
ZvP I feel its more developed in the Zerg side, P are still struggling after they take their nat.(But oh well as I said PvZ felt similar in BW IMO)
ZvT I feel is much more figured out by the T than the Z. I feel Zergs still don't know when to transition into Hive safely
PvT I actually feel is more figured out by the P. They have an endgame plan while T feels kinda lost once Bio starts losing power when the insane P splash damage is out(and with the EMP nerf heh). I actually feel T will have to revise this MU in the near future. Early game is hard for P but overall that doesn't mean anything as they know how to defend it. Just because something is figured out doesn't mean that it has to be easy.
but yeah i still feel it needs much more figuring out, tech timmings don't feel as crisp as in BW. Transitions feel off, players overcommit too much.
I am not saying they are not entertaining mind you. I am just saying they have a lot more to figure out.
I don't know why people are complaining about spells. No Spell(except maybe snipe and so far it only has looked OP when MVP does it) seems too dominant at the moment and all can be dealt with.
Also a MU being figured out goes beyond unit compositions and standard play, its all about transitioning to the right tech at the same time, knowing the timming of when your current tech has started giving diminishing returrns and overall gameplan beyond "I will get mure bases dur hur".
Well SC2 is a young game still and its fun to watch still. All MUs need a lot of growing up
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I'm really optimistic for TvP in Hots, the addition of battle hellions and warhounds will make this matchup so much better making all 3 Terran matchups the best in the game.
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On November 22 2011 00:10 KobyKat wrote:
TvZ seems the least developed to me, we still go mainly marine tank medivac. My vote goes to TvT because that's where the most innovation comes from.
so you want raven thor reaper or something ? its by far the most developed matchup imo
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TvP may be stable, but I don't really like where it is. The diversity of strategies for both sides seems pretty limited.
TvZ has always been my favorite match up and for me is the iconic game of Starcraft 1 & 2. I think it is the most figured out and the most fun to play and watch.
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TvT by far is the most developed. There are no arguments about what to transition to at different points in the game, no talk about a certain style being "unbeatable," even on certain maps. It all comes down to the individual execution of 3 styles of play after an initial set-up early game. To top it off, the early game is never defined as "coinflippy."
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On November 22 2011 00:13 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
I personally think TvT is the most developed MU because usually the best player always wins,it's not like ZvZ where in a flip of a coin a player like IM.NesTea can lose to TLAF'Liquid.HayprO
this post deserves a ban
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Protoss have been doing better in tournaments again but it does still feel like all of their match-ups are underdeveloped due to the design of the race. I don't see this getting fixed in HotS because Blizzard doesn't seem to have any interest in altering warpgate or significantly changing the race. I'm personally disappointed that even after all these changes PvP still isn't really a matchup that goes past one base versus one base, other than once a player is far ahead they take a natural just as a final nail in the coffin.
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On November 22 2011 01:56 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 01:07 sereniity wrote:On November 22 2011 01:02 xCenasfu wrote:On November 22 2011 00:41 teamsolid wrote:-Forcefields can be frustrating to watch sometimes because they usually seem like an all-or-nothing spell (they completely limit the other player's ability to micro) Moving your units as a clump is not micro. Using stimpack or guardian shielf isn't micro. A-moving Roaches isn't micro.. I think you missed the point lol.... How exactly do you micro units that can't move? Exactly, Fungal Growth is frustrating to watch.
Fungal growth is interesting imo. You can micro around it with splitting and " dodging"
Centries are generally harder to dodge.
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I think it goes to show how much mature the thought process behind Terran was that the TvT mirror matchup is so much more stable and even the BFH phase did not make every high-level TvT game a worker-burn-fest. All units are used to a certain extent, while in PvP Void Rays, Carriers, Motherships etc are really rare, earlygame is really coinflippy and expansion timings... wait, expansions? 2base at most for PvP.
ZvZ is similar, but not as bad. At least you frequently get macro games, there is a standard opening (15 hatch) and there are a set few styles which work pretty well (early game: ling/bane, roach/ling. Midgame Roach/Hydra, Roach/Muta/ling. Lategame more Infestors come out), and multiple bases are common. However, you still sometimes get... not so much coinflippy, but really tense and fast moments like Bane/ling vs Bane/ling.
As far as matchups are concerned?
Honourable mention: Old PvP was pretty developed, when it was just 4gate vs 4gate. It wasn't pretty, but the intricacies in the 4gating were pretty developed. I didn't like it, but it was pretty developed.
TvT is the most developed.
TvZ is the second most developed.
ZvZ is the third most developed.
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On November 22 2011 04:02 windsupernova wrote:
Ummm, a MU doesn´t need to be well balanced n at all points of the MU...
Look at the the BW MUs the balance of power in all MUs shifter constantly through all the game. Or unless I got you wrong..
Well, I'd call a MU balanced at each stage of the game, if you can't lose at any future point as long as you haven't made a mistake yet and play it "perfectly" and leads to similar overall winrates.
I guess this is discusable, as theoretically it would be enough if the MU had something ~50:50 winrates, but if this can only be achieved via "coinflips" or one race only having a limited amount of time to beat the other one I would call the game badly designed.
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On November 22 2011 04:21 CandyHunterz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 00:13 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
I personally think TvT is the most developed MU because usually the best player always wins,it's not like ZvZ where in a flip of a coin a player like IM.NesTea can lose to TLAF'Liquid.HayprO this post deserves a ban
why? it's the truth. TvT we see the better player win way more than other mirrors. Do you think MvP would lose to Jinro? lol
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On November 22 2011 04:53 fatworthlessvirgin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 04:21 CandyHunterz wrote:On November 22 2011 00:13 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
I personally think TvT is the most developed MU because usually the best player always wins,it's not like ZvZ where in a flip of a coin a player like IM.NesTea can lose to TLAF'Liquid.HayprO this post deserves a ban why? it's the truth. TvT we see the better player win way more than other mirrors. Do you think MvP would lose to Jinro? lol
No it isn't, that's flat out idiotic. Nestea still wins 95% of his ZvZs. So he lost a series to BBoong in AoL and lost a series to Haypro. But instead of giving credit where credit is due, and acknowledging that even Nestea and MVP are human, no, Nestea MUST WIN ALL HIS ZvZs ALWAYS ALWAYS or the match up makes no sense at all.
MVP has lost TvTs to Terrans that would be considered worse than him.
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2 % pvz ? you people are funny 
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PvT. The end all be all, will always be ht's, colossus, archons. All that can change are the timings.
PvZ hasn't reached mass ravens, medivac, marine, ghosts yet and it's a long road ahead.
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On November 22 2011 05:07 ejozl wrote:
PvZ hasn't reached mass ravens, medivac, marine, ghosts yet and it's a long road ahead.
If PvZ ever uses any of those units I will be quite shocked 
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TvZ is such a dynamic matchup and fun micro-wise for both sides. A lot of different possible strategies, most of them viable and a tough, but rewarding endgame as well.
It's by far the most developed (at least since they nerfed the hellion otherwise it would be TvT), although TvT endgame is very advanced as well.
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TvT because of defenders advantage and the lack of volatility of early game counter attacks due to the power of defensive siege tank timings. TvZ for the same reason.
PvT is probably a Protoss' most stable matchup, with most games ending in more or less the same manner - one of the two deathballs killing each other.
Most fun is TvZ.
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I think that TvT was strongly affected by the Blue Flame nerf, not quite as much as PvP was affected by WG nerf, but it changed the balance between bio and mech yet again. TvT is still probably the most "figured out" match-up, though, in that we have seen the most GSL games in that match-up.
I still regularly see pro-level TvTs today that look indistinguishable from games played 9 months ago (though perhaps with more bio now). That isn't true of any other match-up.
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Due to the flux, PvZ is actually the most figured out, or at least the most explored.
TvZ is not very explored though as Mech and Hydras have roles I'm sure will be found in the coming months.
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On November 22 2011 05:30 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Due to the flux, PvZ is actually the most figured out, or at least the most explored.
TvZ is not very explored though as Mech and Hydras have roles I'm sure will be found in the coming months.
Lol, hydra having a role in ZvT... lol...
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On November 22 2011 05:09 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 05:07 ejozl wrote:
PvZ hasn't reached mass ravens, medivac, marine, ghosts yet and it's a long road ahead. If PvZ ever uses any of those units I will be quite shocked
Those are all the new Toss units in LoTV, true story.
Personally I think all the Toss matchups looked really well developed UNTIL a) Kheydarin Amulet removal (Yup I'm going there) and b) Warpgate nerf.
The warp gate nerf almost single-handedly killed 3 gate expo in PvZ (Which IMO looked pretty stable at that point, 2 base collosus --> moar expo for Protoss and Roach hydra --> lose game for Zerg LOL (Obviously a bit of an exaggeration)). Now if you are doing that build it is very difficult to hold off roach ling timings and in general all the timings associated with 3 gate expo were completely thrown off and are currently very weak.
It didn't effect PvT nearly as much but aggressive 3 gates and 4 gates became much weaker, meaning 1/1/1s could be much greedier.
In PvP right before the nerf I think the matchup was quite stable. Most often if both players 4 gated they could very easily transition into anything they could currently, and if one of the players were greedy he lost, simple as that. IMO 4 gate just kept everything honest. Since the nerf the matchup has had the grace of 2 monkeys flinging poo at each other.
For the amulet, it provided a means of a completely alternate playstyle from robo in PvZ. I don't think many Zergs would have considered it imbalanced or at the very least, more imbalanced than the Collosus  IMHO it made for a very fun and dynamic game. Even still I consider San vs Nestea on Shakuras Plateau to be the best game in SC2 since its release.
In PvT I think Terrans just overreacted b/c they didn't know that barracks' could build a unit called the Ghost at that point in time.
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i guess u havent been watching metagame in pvz that closely, seeing as now majority of the games zerg goes muta involves an entire map basetrade, which always somehow favors zerg lol
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On November 22 2011 06:40 Geovu wrote:
In PvT I think Terrans just overreacted b/c they didn't know that barracks' could build a unit called the Ghost at that point in time.
Funny thing is maybe...just MAYBE a slightly nerfed amulet (say, 70 or 65 energy?) would've worked so well that we wouldn't have even needed the ghost nerfs either.
Amulet removal indeed occured way too quickly and was a way too drastic nerf. I think there are few who wouldn't agree on that (I mean, there's always a way to just nerf it, no?)
Basicly PvT had to be completely re-developed from scratch.
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On November 22 2011 06:57 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 06:40 Geovu wrote:
In PvT I think Terrans just overreacted b/c they didn't know that barracks' could build a unit called the Ghost at that point in time.
Funny thing is maybe...just MAYBE a slightly nerfed amulet (say, 70 or 65 energy?) would've worked so well that we wouldn't have even needed the ghost nerfs either. Amulet removal indeed occured way too quickly and was a way too drastic nerf. I think there are few who wouldn't agree on that (I mean, there's always a way to just nerf it, no?) Basicly PvT had to be completely re-developed from scratch.
I definitely don't disagree with you, though my inner toss feels that it didn't need any nerf at all
PvT had to be re-developed from scratch b/c of Amulet.
PvP had to be re-developed from scratch b/c of Warpgate.
PvZ had to be re-developed a bit b/c of both.
The only time I think this has ever happened in any other MU is TvZ 5 rax reaper which was obviously lol and needed to be changed, while neither of these toss changes were at all 'necessary' in nearly the same way.
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For sure TvT and then TvZ and although TvT is a bit boring, especially after so many gomTV TvT's, TvZ on the other hand is very developed and interesting.
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As a terran, I feel like I have to spend 70% of my practice time working on TvZ because there's so much to work on. Thank god my best friend/blood brother is a zerg, we can play the best matchup together!
Otherwise, TvT is pretty fun and figured out but the variability keeps it fresh. I don't like watching TvT but I love playing it. Just the fact there's so many 1 base openings keep it fun, and the fact that so many compositions WORK. Bio, Bio+Tank, Pure Mech, Hellion Banshee, Skyterran.
Beyond that? ZvP and TvP seem about even on the "Figured out" scale, though slightly more volatile.
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isn't it amazing how good and how many TvZs we get despite there being so many more terrans than zerg? o.o
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TvZ seems the most developed to me. It seems like everything has its place.
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No question at all that it is TvZ. It's probably the only matchup with an established and well balanced meta game (imo).
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On November 22 2011 05:30 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Due to the flux, PvZ is actually the most figured out, or at least the most explored.
TvZ is not very explored though as Mech and Hydras have roles I'm sure will be found in the coming months.
What I completely disagree. A lot of zergs are struggling in zvp now so I wouldn't say its figured out at all as there is a lot of things that could happen in the mu that isn't figured out and what not compared to zvt lol.
TvZ is definitely the most developed balanced match up in the game for most of the game except possibly late late (ghosts).
But no hydra's won't have a role they are to slow and bad just like in zvp how most people try to avoid hydra's due to the same weaknesses that are just to unforgiving. If you attack with hydra's you have to commit you can not retreat 9 times out of 10 and that's just bad when you are guaranteed to either lose them if you engage an army with them ever.
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Interesting poll. I disagree strongly with the results.
I think PvP is the most developed matchup. Because of the warpin mechanic, there is no room for any mistakes, otherwise you'll instantly lose. Specifically, this means early and mid game is almost perfectly mapped out. Admittedly, late game PvP isn't completely actualized, but despite naysayers I'd say it's about as developed as any other matchup.
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I think it's either PvP or ZvZ just because there's the least to be figured out. There's the least room for error or greediness.
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Im in the opinion that PvZ is the match up most figured out. Protoss had free reign over zerg for an entire year to bash zerg. Now zerg has figured out how to play and it's quite obvious that zerg is extremely strong in that match up. Zerg have all the strats while protoss has to rely on 2 base timings and cheese strats and some very limited macro oriented strats to get that deathball up on more than 3 bases. I obviously don't really have much to support my opinions but it's how i think it's how it is now.
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I don't know about most developed, but least developed is definitely PvP. And the poll results do reflect that, so I'm all done here.
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I think anything that involves P is not yet fully developed.
Z and T in all match-ups may use the entire tech tree. That's why ZvT feels the most developed matchup.
Whenever P is in the mix, you get 1 race that has 2 less units to use vs the others. The Mothership and Carrier tech path is never a serious strategic choice. Even if you are already ahead.
I think the key is to change the stats around the carrier and interceptor so that it becomes a heavy defensive unit as opposed to the offensive nature of the colossi.
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TvZ until ghosts. i havent seen some good zerg play vs lots of ghost.
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Didn't an interviewer at MLG ask MVP if he agreed with what Artosis said about TvT turning into mech war, and MVP basically said no, larger maps actually favor heavy bio play?
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"ZvG" - Lindsey Sporrer
But all jokes aside I think TvT is the most developed match-up :D
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Heh funny enough ... the matchups are figured out in the exact order of scouting abilities early game.
TvT: Scans for both players. Enough said.
TvZ: Scan for one player, overlords that can skip chokes and sneak into a base to scout.
TvP: Scan for one player, the other ... pretty much nothing. Same for the rest of the matchups, except neither player have scan.
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TvT easily, TvZ only seems the most developed because it appears to be the most balanced non-mirror, however all the games are the same... i don't see how that is developed.
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On November 22 2011 17:08 aebriol wrote:
Heh funny enough ... the matchups are figured out in the exact order of scouting abilities early game.
TvT: Scans for both players. Enough said.
TvZ: Scan for one player, overlords that can skip chokes and sneak into a base to scout.
TvP: Scan for one player, the other ... pretty much nothing. Same for the rest of the matchups, except neither player have scan.
guess observers are nothing
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literally this is a hard answer for me... i believe that TvP is good, and solid. TvT is boring trench warfare but yes it is solid and the winner of a good TvT will deserve it. as for TvZ i was really shocked that that was the highest rated, when as a Zerg it somewhat good and bad. really off right now :/
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pvp seems like the most dicey MU because of various points of time that you cant raelly scout an opponent (inbeetwen probe scout and observer tech), zvz doesnt really follow as bad scouting restrictions as pvp, overseer or even overlords are always available, zergling/changeling, creep/overlord spread are really giving a huge information boost generally rewarding the player for his information gathering. Also overseer is really strong in this MU as it cant really be stopped until late-midgame. Everyone points on rock-paper-scissor openings, which are not raelly true, cheese exists in every MU, and opening fast pool is the same risk as opening late pool (after expand). Its actually all depending on maps, on biggest maps like Terminus, there is much less risk involved in hatch first, as even fast pool would have bad statistical record.
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TvT closely followed by TvZ imo.
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I hate watching ZvP, it is just based around one big battle, and unless the person who wins makes a major mistake afterwards the game is just over :/ .
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Id say TvT and TvZ as well. But I really liked ZvZ at Providence. Big tourneys such as MLG, where the best go head to head really helps the metagame a lot
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On November 22 2011 00:13 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
I personally think TvT is the most developed MU because usually the best player always wins,it's not like ZvZ where in a flip of a coin a player like IM.NesTea can lose to TLAF'Liquid.HayprO
Haypro almost beat MVP....he is no joke of a player.
I agree with the poll. TvT and TvZ are the most developed, with TvP right behind. All the other matchups are a bit wonky at the moment.
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I don't think you can say any of ther terran matchups are very evolved becuase terran players don't use most of their units because the simple ones are soo good.
I don't think zerg is very defined as we still go for the big engagement style, I think in the future anyone who macros off one hatch hotkey is going to be an eample of sloppy play. I think the future of zerg is a lot of backstabs and small groups of units throughout the map for most of the game forcing trades and not keeping the opponent at home, but letting him come to you and getting a lot of gas early
Protoss, well, protoss isn't very defined either, as they've been doing the same thing since beta, really. Most people will say that's all they can do, but that's been proven wrong, and protoss just needs to be shaped out.
So, I don't think any matchup is very defined at all, we are all still playing like shit, honestly. I can't wait till we see the REALLY good strategies in the coming years.
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TvZ isn't quite as figured out as people tend to think. Muta-ling-bling vs. marine-tank-medivac is still a mainstay, but alternative styles (mech, Stephano style, roach openings, etc.) are starting to look just as good, or even better.
TvT, on the other hand, is definitely settling down. Bio vs. mech is still somewhat of a question, but pretty much every permutation of that has been played out and there's very little variation in what each side has to do. The fact that almost every 20+ minute TvT falls into the same pattern is proof of the MU's stability.
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TvT easily, theres a bit of weird stuff ultra late game but otherwise everythings figured I think
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I voted TvZ, but I think it's actually TvT. TvZ I find more exciting, but there are still a couple of units in TvZ which almost have no place (hydras, battlecruisers). Though then again, TvT has just slowly evolved into a matchup with many viable builds on various numbers of bases with all units viable in someway or another.
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TvZ without a thought, TvT after some reflection.
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The incredible range of strategies and builds and compositions I've seen in TvT for the last year makes me think it's the most developed matchup. For every build there is a counter, and the game flows from early to mid and then to late game seamlessly. Of course it has had the advantage over TvZ of never being inbalanced, and the huge number of tip top Terran pros also helped.
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On November 22 2011 17:11 fatworthlessvirgin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 17:08 aebriol wrote:
Heh funny enough ... the matchups are figured out in the exact order of scouting abilities early game.
TvT: Scans for both players. Enough said.
TvZ: Scan for one player, overlords that can skip chokes and sneak into a base to scout.
TvP: Scan for one player, the other ... pretty much nothing. Same for the rest of the matchups, except neither player have scan.
guess observers are nothing
Early game As in, before tech routes are chosen.
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TvZ is interesting to watch, but its definitely not the most developed matchup
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On November 22 2011 18:41 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 17:11 fatworthlessvirgin wrote:On November 22 2011 17:08 aebriol wrote:
Heh funny enough ... the matchups are figured out in the exact order of scouting abilities early game.
TvT: Scans for both players. Enough said.
TvZ: Scan for one player, overlords that can skip chokes and sneak into a base to scout.
TvP: Scan for one player, the other ... pretty much nothing. Same for the rest of the matchups, except neither player have scan.
guess observers are nothing Early game As in, before tech routes are chosen.
Except Terrans only scan maybe once in the early game and often rely on SCV scouting and watchtower control for information instead. You have to mule your ass off early to avoid falling behind. It's not until much later that Terran can just drop scans more or less at will to get info.
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On November 22 2011 18:41 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 17:11 fatworthlessvirgin wrote:On November 22 2011 17:08 aebriol wrote:
Heh funny enough ... the matchups are figured out in the exact order of scouting abilities early game.
TvT: Scans for both players. Enough said.
TvZ: Scan for one player, overlords that can skip chokes and sneak into a base to scout.
TvP: Scan for one player, the other ... pretty much nothing. Same for the rest of the matchups, except neither player have scan.
guess observers are nothing Early game As in, before tech routes are chosen.
Scanning in the early game (before 8 minutes) is a HUGE investment that should almost never be done. The only exception to this is in TvT, when you go 1 rax FE and you have 2 OCs, so you can afford to burn a scan to see if you need an engy bay cause they are going banshees or other stuff like that.
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I feel people are just voting TvZ because its the best match-up. Which it is, but that doesn't make it the most developed. There's potential in units like ravens that we pretty much never see in TvZ, not even to clear tumors. Its just good old marine tank, with a ghost-based lategame.
I think TvT is the most developed, so many playstyles and all units are viable in one way or another.
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TvZ is the most devolped, because there are so many little things you have to do to succeed. Making sure you wall-off you natural, keeping your tanks seiged, slow pushing, drops, fake push-outs, plus the micro needed to marine split. Also, there different viable strategies in TvZ like marine/tank, mech, and mass marine (sC does this a lot), unlike in other matchups like TvP where you have to go bio. This makes TvT the 2nd most devolped MU, because you can do mech, bio, biomech, or air.
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tvt with tvz in a close second.
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Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now......
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On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now......
What are you talking about lol.
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On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol.
What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it.
Dimaga vs Bratok
Thorzain vs MorroW
Idra vs Puma.
Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game...
I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game......
terran early game is way to safe.
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TvZ. Evidence: Jiijakki vs Leenock. GSL Finals.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe.
This type of play is really weak against early roaches and many terrans die to roach push when they do this build
It worked really well because dimaga, morrow and idra didn't go really (or not at all) early roaches
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On December 04 2011 11:13 pPingu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. This type of play is really weak against early roaches and many terrans die to roach push when they do this build It worked really well because dimaga, morrow and idra didn't go really (or not at all) early roaches
Many terrans die? Maybe if you do a nonreactive 7 roach rush but certainly not against reactive roaches. Terran is practically invincible in the early game
If roaches are such an easy solution why do pros try to not use roaches to the point where they try to defend double reactor hellion on crevasse with ling queen spine? That tells me that roaches have to somehow suck in tvz. And the last game idra vs puma showed it. the reactive roach where unable to do a thing. They could not even deny the 6:40 terran third..........and had to walk all the way back because of two full bunkers..........
During the push you could also see how bad the map control is that roaches provide. The hellions run just past them and tried to roast drones regardless.
If you commit to roaches and it turns out to be a marauder hellion push you are dead. The problem is after hellions it could be anything. Ridiculously greedy expands, more hellions, hellion drops, hellion marine drops, hellion thor rush, hellion marauder, hellion marine tank push if the terran was good and didn't lose the hellions and hellion banshee of course. Hellions are just far too good. You can not nerf thenm becasue the hellion on its own is a completely dominating unit in the early game. They outrange queens, roaches have not the dps, you cannot possible surround more than 4 hellions wih speedlings at all. They just get instantly roasted even without blue flame.
The hellion is just a too good early game unit because of its design.
It is depressing to see that top zergs like morrow die to completely standard stuff because of hellions. They don't take damage like a terran does if you deny his expansion they outright die against mass hellions. Two games on two different maps.
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On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe.
2 tournament ago, every terran opened hellions in TvZ and got punished hard. There's a lot of roaches timing that work against greedy follow up to hellions.
And even if hellions make you safe, it's not like opening hellions is getting an enormous advantage. oO
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Definitely TvZ and TvT are the best matchups in my opinion. They just seem far more polished than the others.
PvZ has potential. Imo a really good PvZ game is as entertaining as anything else, with lots of stuff happening and lots of units used, but it seems like it's more rare that you get games like this. Still so many 2 base allins and stuff happen in that matchup.
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TvZ, TvT, PvZ in that order imo. The other match ups are pretty lame.
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On November 22 2011 00:50 xOff wrote:
TvP Should DEFINITELY not be on the good matchups.. Terran cannot move away from T1 Bio, asides to support ghosts and vikings. That is not developed at all.
Not to mention all games lately just focus on protoss turtling hardcore to get a deathball or doing weird timing all ins. This is largely at fault to terran advantage early game and protoss advantage late.
Yeah, but that's not the fault of the Terran. Protoss on the other hand have thrown almost every unit in the tech tree at Terran Bio with varied success at different stages of the meta game. Protoss have a ton of options. Theres also no 'advantage' late game. If a protoss doesn't land any storms/loses his colossus he will melt. The meta game has shifted vastly as to which race dominated late game and it still goes down to who comes out of the mid game with the better economy, and who can engage the best.
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On December 04 2011 19:25 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. 2 tournament ago, every terran opened hellions in TvZ and got punished hard. There's a lot of roaches timing that work against greedy follow up to hellions. And even if hellions make you safe, it's not like opening hellions is getting an enormous advantage. oO
But Terrans have figured out the roach timings. That's why no one does them any more. Just a week after IPL3, Stephano lost to Boxer because he did a stupid roach timing vs reactor hellions. If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard.
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On December 04 2011 20:40 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 19:25 Noocta wrote:On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. 2 tournament ago, every terran opened hellions in TvZ and got punished hard. There's a lot of roaches timing that work against greedy follow up to hellions. And even if hellions make you safe, it's not like opening hellions is getting an enormous advantage. oO But Terrans have figured out the roach timings. That's why no one does them any more. Just a week after IPL3, Stephano lost to Boxer because he did a stupid roach timing vs reactor hellions. If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard.
You are making it sound like TvZ is heavily Terran favored, when in fact it is the most balanced non-mirror matchup.
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On December 04 2011 20:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 20:40 Micket wrote:On December 04 2011 19:25 Noocta wrote:On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. 2 tournament ago, every terran opened hellions in TvZ and got punished hard. There's a lot of roaches timing that work against greedy follow up to hellions. And even if hellions make you safe, it's not like opening hellions is getting an enormous advantage. oO But Terrans have figured out the roach timings. That's why no one does them any more. Just a week after IPL3, Stephano lost to Boxer because he did a stupid roach timing vs reactor hellions. If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard. You are making it sound like TvZ is heavily Terran favored, when in fact it is the most balanced non-mirror matchup.
No he's not, he's clarifying a fact. Where in his post does he cite incorrect match-up statistics, or imply Terran is ultimately stronger?
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On December 04 2011 20:49 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 20:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 20:40 Micket wrote:On December 04 2011 19:25 Noocta wrote:On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. 2 tournament ago, every terran opened hellions in TvZ and got punished hard. There's a lot of roaches timing that work against greedy follow up to hellions. And even if hellions make you safe, it's not like opening hellions is getting an enormous advantage. oO But Terrans have figured out the roach timings. That's why no one does them any more. Just a week after IPL3, Stephano lost to Boxer because he did a stupid roach timing vs reactor hellions. If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard. You are making it sound like TvZ is heavily Terran favored, when in fact it is the most balanced non-mirror matchup. No he's not, he's clarifying a fact. Where in his post does he cite incorrect match-up statistics, or imply Terran is ultimately stronger?
If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard.
ie. Zergs have no way of dealing with the goto build in TvZ, meaning that there is an imbalance.
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On December 04 2011 20:51 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 20:49 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 04 2011 20:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 20:40 Micket wrote:On December 04 2011 19:25 Noocta wrote:On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. 2 tournament ago, every terran opened hellions in TvZ and got punished hard. There's a lot of roaches timing that work against greedy follow up to hellions. And even if hellions make you safe, it's not like opening hellions is getting an enormous advantage. oO But Terrans have figured out the roach timings. That's why no one does them any more. Just a week after IPL3, Stephano lost to Boxer because he did a stupid roach timing vs reactor hellions. If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard. You are making it sound like TvZ is heavily Terran favored, when in fact it is the most balanced non-mirror matchup. No he's not, he's clarifying a fact. Where in his post does he cite incorrect match-up statistics, or imply Terran is ultimately stronger? If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard.ie. Zergs have no way of dealing with the goto build in TvZ, meaning that there is an imbalance.
That's a huge assumption. It first goes from Zerg not having a build that can punish Terrans for being greedy and over committing with hellions, to Zerg having absolutely no way of dealing with the build at all and it's imbalanced. Seem's like you're just arguing with strawmans.
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On December 04 2011 20:51 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 20:49 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 04 2011 20:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 20:40 Micket wrote:On December 04 2011 19:25 Noocta wrote:On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. 2 tournament ago, every terran opened hellions in TvZ and got punished hard. There's a lot of roaches timing that work against greedy follow up to hellions. And even if hellions make you safe, it's not like opening hellions is getting an enormous advantage. oO But Terrans have figured out the roach timings. That's why no one does them any more. Just a week after IPL3, Stephano lost to Boxer because he did a stupid roach timing vs reactor hellions. If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard. You are making it sound like TvZ is heavily Terran favored, when in fact it is the most balanced non-mirror matchup. No he's not, he's clarifying a fact. Where in his post does he cite incorrect match-up statistics, or imply Terran is ultimately stronger? If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard.ie. Zergs have no way of dealing with the goto build in TvZ, meaning that there is an imbalance.
If that's your way of thinking, I don't know what to say.
My comment was merely saying that reactor hellions will ALWAYS do their job. They will deny scouting, prevent a third, stop creep spread OR they will force roaches. Either situation is beneficial to Terran.
By your way of thinking, 15 hatch vs Terran is imbalanced. Terrans cannot punish a Zerg for going 15 hatch, therefore they cannot deal with the goto ZvT build, therefore imba!!
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Wouldn't TvT have to be the most developed matchup almost by definition? Since there are far more high-level terrans than any other race, TvT is the matchup which has the most hours of work put into it. Perhaps there's some argument for TvZ since zerg has fewer options, but I think the lack of top zergs means there's a lot of unexplored ground yet to come.
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TvZ is probably most developed. A variety of openings for terrans and zergs, also totally different midgame strategies that are deployed. But endgame is usually pretty much ghost/viking destroying whatever the zerg throws.the only time I see broodlords/infestor do well against a terran army, is a terran army that is still stuck in tank/marine, because of lack of gas.
TvT is 2nd most developed. I think a lot of terrans are still working out the kinks of mech, such as having to switch to sky-terran, or perhaps better tech transitions over all. Early game can be pretty volatile, such as hellion openings, or banshee openings. Generally TvT is most stable when both players fast expand, however if either of them decide to tech instead of FE, the matchup doesn't feel quite as developed.
ZvP is rapidly evolving. This matchup has a lot of openings for both protoss and zerg, the midgame of this matchup is ridiculously volatile, usually most ZvP end in midgame.
TvP is slightly changing. The games still feel pretty icky. Rarely do I ever see a fully max protoss army face a fully maxed terran army, so matchup hasn't quite developed past midgame antics. I think a big part of this is how usless terran mech is against protoss.
ZvZ, to be honest this is my favorite matchup if it goes pass the bling/ling shenanigans. with that being said, the fact that ling/bling shenanigans haven't been solved, is the reason why I think this matchup hasn't quite evolved.
PvP, same thing as ZvZ, except with 4gate stuff
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On December 04 2011 21:00 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 20:51 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 20:49 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 04 2011 20:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 20:40 Micket wrote:On December 04 2011 19:25 Noocta wrote:On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. 2 tournament ago, every terran opened hellions in TvZ and got punished hard. There's a lot of roaches timing that work against greedy follow up to hellions. And even if hellions make you safe, it's not like opening hellions is getting an enormous advantage. oO But Terrans have figured out the roach timings. That's why no one does them any more. Just a week after IPL3, Stephano lost to Boxer because he did a stupid roach timing vs reactor hellions. If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard. You are making it sound like TvZ is heavily Terran favored, when in fact it is the most balanced non-mirror matchup. No he's not, he's clarifying a fact. Where in his post does he cite incorrect match-up statistics, or imply Terran is ultimately stronger? If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard.ie. Zergs have no way of dealing with the goto build in TvZ, meaning that there is an imbalance. If that's your way of thinking, I don't know what to say. My comment was merely saying that reactor hellions will ALWAYS do their job. They will deny scouting, prevent a third, stop creep spread OR they will force roaches. Either situation is beneficial to Terran. By your way of thinking, 15 hatch vs Terran is imbalanced. Terrans cannot punish a Zerg for going 15 hatch, therefore they cannot deal with the goto ZvT build, therefore imba!!
You're still saying that hellions will ALWAYS put Terran into a advantageous position, and an upperhand in the matchup.
The 15 hatch example is a bad analogy for what you are saying. It does not ALWAYS give Zerg the upper hand. Terran can do early aggression or fast expand himself.
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On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe.
Dimaga had some really bad roach slips, and bad zergling angles.
Morrow didn't build any simcity, and had like 1 spinecrawler, and thorzain built like 200 hellions.
Idra vs Puma, idra got greedy, puma punished.
As it is now, zergs simply don't build enough spinecrawlers, nor enough roaches.
I don't understand how they think 2 spinecrawlers is going to defend against 8 hellions? Just do the mineral cost math....
The major problem that zergs do have, that I think they're trying to figure out, is trying to find out whether or not its just going to be 4-6 hellions, or much more? But to tell the truth, just those NASL games, the zergs really under built defense.
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On December 04 2011 21:07 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 21:00 Micket wrote:On December 04 2011 20:51 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 20:49 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 04 2011 20:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 20:40 Micket wrote:On December 04 2011 19:25 Noocta wrote:On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. 2 tournament ago, every terran opened hellions in TvZ and got punished hard. There's a lot of roaches timing that work against greedy follow up to hellions. And even if hellions make you safe, it's not like opening hellions is getting an enormous advantage. oO But Terrans have figured out the roach timings. That's why no one does them any more. Just a week after IPL3, Stephano lost to Boxer because he did a stupid roach timing vs reactor hellions. If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard. You are making it sound like TvZ is heavily Terran favored, when in fact it is the most balanced non-mirror matchup. No he's not, he's clarifying a fact. Where in his post does he cite incorrect match-up statistics, or imply Terran is ultimately stronger? If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard.ie. Zergs have no way of dealing with the goto build in TvZ, meaning that there is an imbalance. If that's your way of thinking, I don't know what to say. My comment was merely saying that reactor hellions will ALWAYS do their job. They will deny scouting, prevent a third, stop creep spread OR they will force roaches. Either situation is beneficial to Terran. By your way of thinking, 15 hatch vs Terran is imbalanced. Terrans cannot punish a Zerg for going 15 hatch, therefore they cannot deal with the goto ZvT build, therefore imba!! You're still saying that hellions will ALWAYS put Terran into a advantageous position, and an upperhand in the matchup. The 15 hatch example is a bad analogy for what you are saying. It does not ALWAYS give Zerg the upper hand. Terran can do early aggression or fast expand himself.
I said beneficial, not advantageous. If Terrans couldn't move out vs Zerg after speed was done, the matchup would be Zerg favoured. Terrans would be complaining exactly like how Protoss complain about Zerg. Just because hellions will be good for Terran every game doesn't mean Terran imba. It means it is a solid build, just like 1 rax expand vs P, 15 hatch vs T. It is a build that does not fall behind against anything, except some ridiculously risky shenanigans.
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On December 04 2011 21:07 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 21:00 Micket wrote:On December 04 2011 20:51 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 20:49 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 04 2011 20:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 20:40 Micket wrote:On December 04 2011 19:25 Noocta wrote:On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. 2 tournament ago, every terran opened hellions in TvZ and got punished hard. There's a lot of roaches timing that work against greedy follow up to hellions. And even if hellions make you safe, it's not like opening hellions is getting an enormous advantage. oO But Terrans have figured out the roach timings. That's why no one does them any more. Just a week after IPL3, Stephano lost to Boxer because he did a stupid roach timing vs reactor hellions. If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard. You are making it sound like TvZ is heavily Terran favored, when in fact it is the most balanced non-mirror matchup. No he's not, he's clarifying a fact. Where in his post does he cite incorrect match-up statistics, or imply Terran is ultimately stronger? If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard.ie. Zergs have no way of dealing with the goto build in TvZ, meaning that there is an imbalance. If that's your way of thinking, I don't know what to say. My comment was merely saying that reactor hellions will ALWAYS do their job. They will deny scouting, prevent a third, stop creep spread OR they will force roaches. Either situation is beneficial to Terran. By your way of thinking, 15 hatch vs Terran is imbalanced. Terrans cannot punish a Zerg for going 15 hatch, therefore they cannot deal with the goto ZvT build, therefore imba!! You're still saying that hellions will ALWAYS put Terran into a advantageous position, and an upperhand in the matchup. The 15 hatch example is a bad analogy for what you are saying. It does not ALWAYS give Zerg the upper hand. Terran can do early aggression or fast expand himself.
I feel like you have a lack of understanding in both the match-up, and this game. The Terran invested 400-800 minerals in this 'advantage', not considering he also delayed all of his other tech/upgrades, his expand which ultimately results in slowing the build down (less mules) and less SCV's. The advantage is called map control. Many months before hellions became popular the Zerg ALWAYS had map dominance with speedlings. Zergs don't exactly need map control as they simply drone up til mutas then double expand.
The 15 hatch was a perfect analogy because it's simply the fact that in the current meta game, a Zerg CAN go 15 hatch without being punished, just as a Terran in this current meta game can grab hellions and push a zerg around when they're still droning. Terrans DO fast expand, regardless, AND put early aggression on. You simply state these facts arbitrarily with no regard to how, why, and in what meta game they materialize.
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On December 04 2011 21:17 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 21:07 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 21:00 Micket wrote:On December 04 2011 20:51 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 20:49 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 04 2011 20:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 20:40 Micket wrote:On December 04 2011 19:25 Noocta wrote:On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:
[quote]
What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. 2 tournament ago, every terran opened hellions in TvZ and got punished hard. There's a lot of roaches timing that work against greedy follow up to hellions. And even if hellions make you safe, it's not like opening hellions is getting an enormous advantage. oO But Terrans have figured out the roach timings. That's why no one does them any more. Just a week after IPL3, Stephano lost to Boxer because he did a stupid roach timing vs reactor hellions. If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard. You are making it sound like TvZ is heavily Terran favored, when in fact it is the most balanced non-mirror matchup. No he's not, he's clarifying a fact. Where in his post does he cite incorrect match-up statistics, or imply Terran is ultimately stronger? If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard.ie. Zergs have no way of dealing with the goto build in TvZ, meaning that there is an imbalance. If that's your way of thinking, I don't know what to say. My comment was merely saying that reactor hellions will ALWAYS do their job. They will deny scouting, prevent a third, stop creep spread OR they will force roaches. Either situation is beneficial to Terran. By your way of thinking, 15 hatch vs Terran is imbalanced. Terrans cannot punish a Zerg for going 15 hatch, therefore they cannot deal with the goto ZvT build, therefore imba!! You're still saying that hellions will ALWAYS put Terran into a advantageous position, and an upperhand in the matchup. The 15 hatch example is a bad analogy for what you are saying. It does not ALWAYS give Zerg the upper hand. Terran can do early aggression or fast expand himself. I said beneficial, not advantageous. If Terrans couldn't move out vs Zerg after speed was done, the matchup would be Zerg favoured. Terrans would be complaining exactly like how Protoss complain about Zerg. Just because hellions will be good for Terran every game doesn't mean Terran imba. It means it is a solid build, just like 1 rax expand vs P, 15 hatch vs T. It is a build that does not fall behind against anything, except some ridiculously risky shenanigans.
Whatever. I just can't comprehend how you can say that Zergs have no way of dealing with the "goto build in TvZ" and "roaches suck and scouting is hard" one moment, then claim you weren't balance whining the next.
Hopefully we can all agree that TvZ is balanced quite well and no need for QQ.
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On December 04 2011 21:09 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. Dimaga had some really bad roach slips, and bad zergling angles. Morrow didn't build any simcity, and had like 1 spinecrawler, and thorzain built like 200 hellions. Idra vs Puma, idra got greedy, puma punished. ]As it is now, zergs simply don't build enough spinecrawlers, nor enough roaches.
I don't understand how they think 2 spinecrawlers is going to defend against 8 hellions? Just do the mineral cost math....
The major problem that zergs do have, that I think they're trying to figure out, is trying to find out whether or not its just going to be 4-6 hellions, or much more? But to tell the truth, just those NASL games, the zergs really under built defense.
2 spines, 2 queen that's 600 minerals, 8 hellions that's 800 minerals.
So yeah, from the cost point of view it should be more than enough considering that :
1) static defense is supposed to be much stronger in a fight that highly mobile units
2) Helion are specialised against light unit, and neither queens nor spines are light.
I don't know how you do your "mineral cost math" but if you think that a player with 600 mineral of static defense should outright die to 800 minerals of harassement units, you are out of your mind. Not to mention, that there is usually some zerglings there too.
Making more spines is suicidal, for the simple fact that if you rely too much on spines you die to a tank push. I dare you to find a way to defend a push like the puma vs Idra on shattered temple, with 3 spines or more (with a defensive build, not an all in aggression).
The correct answer is not to overproduce defense, it's just to outmicro the terran.
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mineral cost math is so not useful in this scenario. that's like saying that we terrans should build 20 turrets around our 2 bases to protect against mutas.
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On December 04 2011 22:08 bLah. wrote:
mineral cost math is so not useful in this scenario. that's like saying that we terrans should build 20 turrets around our 2 bases to protect against mutas.
Maybe terrans should but since turrets are a far harder counter to mutas then spines are to hellions it's just not necessary further supporting my opinion of the far too powerful hellion in the early game.
We're in a stage where hellions almost feel like reapers prepatch.
Even on creep Hellions can kite queens forever and spines have far too low rate of fire to be effective against hellions.
Look at this replay http://drop.sc/67059 and tell me that 4 hellions are supposed to pass a wall of two queens and spinecrawlers to then have free reign in the zerg eco.
As seen in the leenock vs jjakji game even runbys with 40+ speedlings don't do anything. They don't even make up for their cost because they kill no workers at all if one marine is present. 6 hellions on the opposite eradicate mineral lines in seconds.
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TvZ for sure. It looks like the match up that is most evolved to me. It's one of my favorites to watch but not my most favorite.
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On December 05 2011 00:08 Simonius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 22:08 bLah. wrote:
mineral cost math is so not useful in this scenario. that's like saying that we terrans should build 20 turrets around our 2 bases to protect against mutas. Maybe terrans should but since turrets are a far harder counter to mutas then spines are to hellions it's just not necessary further supporting my opinion of the far too powerful hellion in the early game. We're in a stage where hellions almost feel like reapers prepatch. Even on creep Hellions can kite queens forever and spines have far too low rate of fire to be effective against hellions. Look at this replay http://drop.sc/67059 and tell me that 4 hellions are supposed to pass a wall of two queens and spinecrawlers to then have free reign in the zerg eco.
As seen in the leenock vs jjakji game even runbys with 40+ speedlings don't do anything. They don't even make up for their cost because they kill no workers at all if one marine is present. 6 hellions on the opposite eradicate mineral lines in seconds.
Stop using these weird comparisons. The reason 40 speedlings didn't do anything was because jjakji had amazing simcity. (screw amazing, it was the single most brilliant form of depot simcity I've ever witnessed). I've seen foreigners get completely decimated by such a runby. Anyway all the top korean zergs have this hellion thing completely figured out and it's only the foreign zergs that seem to be struggling with it.
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i disagree with people saying that ZvZ is unstable. it is my best MU and i think i know a lot about it!
1) zergling baneling wars are an all-in, whichever way you look at it. when a zerg is not producing drones and does not have 50 drones, its an all-in. and they happen. on some maps they are VERY powerful and its become standard (tal'darim alter because there is no ramp). on other maps it is not very effective but still used every once in a while to catch their opponent being to greedy.
2) the lots of different roach timings, are all-ins. they too are just like zergling baneling wars. the zerg stops producing drones, and most likely does not have 50 drones (if they do then it is a stupid timing attack). the idea is that when you push out wiht your roahces, the opponent made a round of drones so has less units and your roaches kill him. once again this is meant to catch your opponent being too greedy.
3) for the mid game there are currently 2 different styles. there is mutalisks/zergling/baneling (roaches sometimes) and roach, hydra, (sometimes), infestor. these 2 different styles have their ups and downs and really (in my opinion) make this match up so cool. there are 2 different styles that can be played, each just as effective and both having their ups and downs.
that is the reason why i think ZvZ is so developed. but really in the end TvZ is the most developed!
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I think TvZ is the most similar to what it was in BW and therefore a lot of the match-up and the tactics have been figured out in general and just needed adapting.
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It's clearly TvT, TvZ is just retarded because of ghost.
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On December 04 2011 21:49 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 21:09 wei2coolman wrote:On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. Dimaga had some really bad roach slips, and bad zergling angles. Morrow didn't build any simcity, and had like 1 spinecrawler, and thorzain built like 200 hellions. Idra vs Puma, idra got greedy, puma punished. ]As it is now, zergs simply don't build enough spinecrawlers, nor enough roaches.
I don't understand how they think 2 spinecrawlers is going to defend against 8 hellions? Just do the mineral cost math....
The major problem that zergs do have, that I think they're trying to figure out, is trying to find out whether or not its just going to be 4-6 hellions, or much more? But to tell the truth, just those NASL games, the zergs really under built defense. 2 spines, 2 queen that's 600 minerals, 8 hellions that's 800 minerals. So yeah, from the cost point of view it should be more than enough considering that : 1) static defense is supposed to be much stronger in a fight that highly mobile units 2) Helion are specialised against light unit, and neither queens nor spines are light. I don't know how you do your "mineral cost math" but if you think that a player with 600 mineral of static defense should outright die to 800 minerals of harassement units, you are out of your mind. Not to mention, that there is usually some zerglings there too. Making more spines is suicidal, for the simple fact that if you rely too much on spines you die to a tank push. I dare you to find a way to defend a push like the puma vs Idra on shattered temple, with 3 spines or more (with a defensive build, not an all in aggression). The correct answer is not to overproduce defense, it's just to outmicro the terran.
._. Because you totally don't use those queens for something else. It's like me saying I can't deal with baneling pushes even though I have invested as much as the zerg in defense as he has in army because I got 400 minerals in marines and 400 minerals in a cc, and they got 650 minerals/150 gas invested.
Also, the best way to do it is to either get roaches, or get speedlings and 1/2 spines, when the terran runs in you attack him so that he can't get past you without killing your lings meanwhile being in range of the spines.
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On December 05 2011 01:10 Theovide wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 21:49 Elean wrote:On December 04 2011 21:09 wei2coolman wrote:On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. Dimaga had some really bad roach slips, and bad zergling angles. Morrow didn't build any simcity, and had like 1 spinecrawler, and thorzain built like 200 hellions. Idra vs Puma, idra got greedy, puma punished. ]As it is now, zergs simply don't build enough spinecrawlers, nor enough roaches.
I don't understand how they think 2 spinecrawlers is going to defend against 8 hellions? Just do the mineral cost math....
The major problem that zergs do have, that I think they're trying to figure out, is trying to find out whether or not its just going to be 4-6 hellions, or much more? But to tell the truth, just those NASL games, the zergs really under built defense. 2 spines, 2 queen that's 600 minerals, 8 hellions that's 800 minerals. So yeah, from the cost point of view it should be more than enough considering that : 1) static defense is supposed to be much stronger in a fight that highly mobile units 2) Helion are specialised against light unit, and neither queens nor spines are light. I don't know how you do your "mineral cost math" but if you think that a player with 600 mineral of static defense should outright die to 800 minerals of harassement units, you are out of your mind. Not to mention, that there is usually some zerglings there too. Making more spines is suicidal, for the simple fact that if you rely too much on spines you die to a tank push. I dare you to find a way to defend a push like the puma vs Idra on shattered temple, with 3 spines or more (with a defensive build, not an all in aggression). The correct answer is not to overproduce defense, it's just to outmicro the terran. ._. Because you totally don't use those queens for something else. It's like me saying I can't deal with baneling pushes even though I have invested as much as the zerg in defense as he has in army because I got 400 minerals in marines and 400 minerals in a cc, and they got 650 minerals/150 gas invested. Also, the best way to do it is to either get roaches, or get speedlings and 1/2 spines, when the terran runs in you attack him so that he can't get past you without killing your lings meanwhile being in range of the spines.
Queens are fighting units and can take part of the fight. Unless you find a way to make the cc take part in the fight, it's just stupid. You can use a planetary fortress instead for the sake of the example.
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TvT is far and away the most developed matchup, simply because every single unit has a place in the arsenal, even in the endgame. Even the hardly-ever-seen-in-any-other-matchup BCs and Ravens get prime stage time as we approach the end game. The only really underused unit so far is the Ghost, as aside from a few rushes you hardly ever see them, but as the Raven/BC endgame starts becoming more and more prevalent, and people start to realize exactly how useful Nukes are, we'll see a resurgence of them.
TvZ is second, but we still have a ways to go here. It's the most exciting matchup to watch, as this matchup is balanced on a blade's edge (not so much as PvP, but close). Catch the Terran out of position just one time, and the game is more or less finished. Waste some banelings, or decide to engage just a little too early or late with your banes, or mistime your flank just slightly, and the Zerg can end up in an unrecoverable hole just as easily. Hydras don't really see a use, but you also don't see Terrans going for any heavy air play. Both have some viability in different situations, we just haven't seen anyone really take advantage of them yet.
TvZ and TvT both have the "feel" of how SC2 should be -- some good back and forth, both have good offensive and defensive options at all points of the game, because Tanks and burrowed banelings give the races an effective way to control space while using the rest of their army to move around and grab more territory. It's a very nice dance when performed properly.
TvP is so borked right now. Colossi, Storms, and EMP are all overpowered in their own way, which almost makes it feel balanced. Balanced doesn't particularly mean interesting though. Mass bio from Terran, mass Gateway from protoss. Mix in Vikings and Ghosts vs. Colossi and Templar. If you made too many vikings and they went heavier templar, Terran dies to storms. If they remake colossi and you're sitting on a bunch of ghosts and too few vikings, you're just as dead. But on the other hand, if a Terran keeps good recon and balances their army just right, coupled with some good drops, they can seem almost unbeatable. It feels balanced, though currently a lot harder for Terran to play than Protoss, but mostly it's just boring because there's not many real options for Terran other than balance your support units properly and pray you've reconned correctly. Also, mass zealot reinforcements make it harder to punish a Protoss after the Terran breaks him than it is for a Terran to just die after his army's wiped out.
ZvP is still developing. I think we'll feel better about this matchup after HotS, when Protoss has a good way to deal with mass Mutalisk strategies. We still don't see nearly enough baneling drops, or warp prism harass, or late game DTs to deny expos. They're starting to show up, though, and I'm excited to see where it goes.
ZvZ has seen a renaissance of sorts as of late. I'm really digging the mutaling style that has emerged, and am excited to see games actually reach Lair tech consistently (and occasionally even a hive!). It's still a very micro-intensive battle in the early game, which makes it fun to watch, but also makes it stressful as hell to play. There was some Ultra play before that I didn't think was very viable, but I'm liking seeing some Brood Lords come out recently. We're seeing Zerg start to branch out from the "ling/roach/bling into roach/infestor" play, and it's looking very sexy.
PvP. Yikes. What is there to say here? I think this matchup is screwed until HotS. Once the warp in on someone's high ground mechanic is removed, I think we'll see the early gateway pressures disappear almost entirely and we'll see how this matchup is actually supposed to look. We see flashes of it occasionally, with the occasional robo play, but right now it's either a 4gate, blinkstalker, or 3gate robo and chrono an immortal matchup, with the very rare stargate play mixed in.
So I say: TvT, TvZ, TvP, ZvP, ZvZ, and PvP, in that order. Whether it's because Terran has more options so those matchups feel more developed, or it's because there's been so many Terrans in GSL that we've seen everything, I'm not sure. But I'm excited to see what HotS does to our perceptions of all of these matchups.
TLDR: The TvT and TvZ matchups feel the most developed because they are the only matchups that have a good sense of space control with the usage of Siege Tanks and burrowed banelings. When space-controlling options become more prevalent in the other matchups, we'll see them feeling as awesome as those matchups. Maybe some hope coming in HotS?
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EPT
