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TvZ is probably most developed. A variety of openings for terrans and zergs, also totally different midgame strategies that are deployed. But endgame is usually pretty much ghost/viking destroying whatever the zerg throws.the only time I see broodlords/infestor do well against a terran army, is a terran army that is still stuck in tank/marine, because of lack of gas.
TvT is 2nd most developed. I think a lot of terrans are still working out the kinks of mech, such as having to switch to sky-terran, or perhaps better tech transitions over all. Early game can be pretty volatile, such as hellion openings, or banshee openings. Generally TvT is most stable when both players fast expand, however if either of them decide to tech instead of FE, the matchup doesn't feel quite as developed.
ZvP is rapidly evolving. This matchup has a lot of openings for both protoss and zerg, the midgame of this matchup is ridiculously volatile, usually most ZvP end in midgame.
TvP is slightly changing. The games still feel pretty icky. Rarely do I ever see a fully max protoss army face a fully maxed terran army, so matchup hasn't quite developed past midgame antics. I think a big part of this is how usless terran mech is against protoss.
ZvZ, to be honest this is my favorite matchup if it goes pass the bling/ling shenanigans. with that being said, the fact that ling/bling shenanigans haven't been solved, is the reason why I think this matchup hasn't quite evolved.
PvP, same thing as ZvZ, except with 4gate stuff
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On December 04 2011 21:00 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 20:51 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 20:49 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 04 2011 20:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 20:40 Micket wrote:On December 04 2011 19:25 Noocta wrote:On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. 2 tournament ago, every terran opened hellions in TvZ and got punished hard. There's a lot of roaches timing that work against greedy follow up to hellions. And even if hellions make you safe, it's not like opening hellions is getting an enormous advantage. oO But Terrans have figured out the roach timings. That's why no one does them any more. Just a week after IPL3, Stephano lost to Boxer because he did a stupid roach timing vs reactor hellions. If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard. You are making it sound like TvZ is heavily Terran favored, when in fact it is the most balanced non-mirror matchup. No he's not, he's clarifying a fact. Where in his post does he cite incorrect match-up statistics, or imply Terran is ultimately stronger? If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard.ie. Zergs have no way of dealing with the goto build in TvZ, meaning that there is an imbalance. If that's your way of thinking, I don't know what to say. My comment was merely saying that reactor hellions will ALWAYS do their job. They will deny scouting, prevent a third, stop creep spread OR they will force roaches. Either situation is beneficial to Terran. By your way of thinking, 15 hatch vs Terran is imbalanced. Terrans cannot punish a Zerg for going 15 hatch, therefore they cannot deal with the goto ZvT build, therefore imba!!
You're still saying that hellions will ALWAYS put Terran into a advantageous position, and an upperhand in the matchup.
The 15 hatch example is a bad analogy for what you are saying. It does not ALWAYS give Zerg the upper hand. Terran can do early aggression or fast expand himself.
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On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe.
Dimaga had some really bad roach slips, and bad zergling angles.
Morrow didn't build any simcity, and had like 1 spinecrawler, and thorzain built like 200 hellions.
Idra vs Puma, idra got greedy, puma punished.
As it is now, zergs simply don't build enough spinecrawlers, nor enough roaches.
I don't understand how they think 2 spinecrawlers is going to defend against 8 hellions? Just do the mineral cost math....
The major problem that zergs do have, that I think they're trying to figure out, is trying to find out whether or not its just going to be 4-6 hellions, or much more? But to tell the truth, just those NASL games, the zergs really under built defense.
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On December 04 2011 21:07 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 21:00 Micket wrote:On December 04 2011 20:51 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 20:49 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 04 2011 20:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 20:40 Micket wrote:On December 04 2011 19:25 Noocta wrote:On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. 2 tournament ago, every terran opened hellions in TvZ and got punished hard. There's a lot of roaches timing that work against greedy follow up to hellions. And even if hellions make you safe, it's not like opening hellions is getting an enormous advantage. oO But Terrans have figured out the roach timings. That's why no one does them any more. Just a week after IPL3, Stephano lost to Boxer because he did a stupid roach timing vs reactor hellions. If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard. You are making it sound like TvZ is heavily Terran favored, when in fact it is the most balanced non-mirror matchup. No he's not, he's clarifying a fact. Where in his post does he cite incorrect match-up statistics, or imply Terran is ultimately stronger? If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard.ie. Zergs have no way of dealing with the goto build in TvZ, meaning that there is an imbalance. If that's your way of thinking, I don't know what to say. My comment was merely saying that reactor hellions will ALWAYS do their job. They will deny scouting, prevent a third, stop creep spread OR they will force roaches. Either situation is beneficial to Terran. By your way of thinking, 15 hatch vs Terran is imbalanced. Terrans cannot punish a Zerg for going 15 hatch, therefore they cannot deal with the goto ZvT build, therefore imba!! You're still saying that hellions will ALWAYS put Terran into a advantageous position, and an upperhand in the matchup. The 15 hatch example is a bad analogy for what you are saying. It does not ALWAYS give Zerg the upper hand. Terran can do early aggression or fast expand himself.
I said beneficial, not advantageous. If Terrans couldn't move out vs Zerg after speed was done, the matchup would be Zerg favoured. Terrans would be complaining exactly like how Protoss complain about Zerg. Just because hellions will be good for Terran every game doesn't mean Terran imba. It means it is a solid build, just like 1 rax expand vs P, 15 hatch vs T. It is a build that does not fall behind against anything, except some ridiculously risky shenanigans.
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On December 04 2011 21:07 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 21:00 Micket wrote:On December 04 2011 20:51 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 20:49 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 04 2011 20:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 20:40 Micket wrote:On December 04 2011 19:25 Noocta wrote:On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. 2 tournament ago, every terran opened hellions in TvZ and got punished hard. There's a lot of roaches timing that work against greedy follow up to hellions. And even if hellions make you safe, it's not like opening hellions is getting an enormous advantage. oO But Terrans have figured out the roach timings. That's why no one does them any more. Just a week after IPL3, Stephano lost to Boxer because he did a stupid roach timing vs reactor hellions. If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard. You are making it sound like TvZ is heavily Terran favored, when in fact it is the most balanced non-mirror matchup. No he's not, he's clarifying a fact. Where in his post does he cite incorrect match-up statistics, or imply Terran is ultimately stronger? If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard.ie. Zergs have no way of dealing with the goto build in TvZ, meaning that there is an imbalance. If that's your way of thinking, I don't know what to say. My comment was merely saying that reactor hellions will ALWAYS do their job. They will deny scouting, prevent a third, stop creep spread OR they will force roaches. Either situation is beneficial to Terran. By your way of thinking, 15 hatch vs Terran is imbalanced. Terrans cannot punish a Zerg for going 15 hatch, therefore they cannot deal with the goto ZvT build, therefore imba!! You're still saying that hellions will ALWAYS put Terran into a advantageous position, and an upperhand in the matchup. The 15 hatch example is a bad analogy for what you are saying. It does not ALWAYS give Zerg the upper hand. Terran can do early aggression or fast expand himself.
I feel like you have a lack of understanding in both the match-up, and this game. The Terran invested 400-800 minerals in this 'advantage', not considering he also delayed all of his other tech/upgrades, his expand which ultimately results in slowing the build down (less mules) and less SCV's. The advantage is called map control. Many months before hellions became popular the Zerg ALWAYS had map dominance with speedlings. Zergs don't exactly need map control as they simply drone up til mutas then double expand.
The 15 hatch was a perfect analogy because it's simply the fact that in the current meta game, a Zerg CAN go 15 hatch without being punished, just as a Terran in this current meta game can grab hellions and push a zerg around when they're still droning. Terrans DO fast expand, regardless, AND put early aggression on. You simply state these facts arbitrarily with no regard to how, why, and in what meta game they materialize.
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On December 04 2011 21:17 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 21:07 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 21:00 Micket wrote:On December 04 2011 20:51 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 20:49 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 04 2011 20:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:On December 04 2011 20:40 Micket wrote:On December 04 2011 19:25 Noocta wrote:On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:
[quote]
What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. 2 tournament ago, every terran opened hellions in TvZ and got punished hard. There's a lot of roaches timing that work against greedy follow up to hellions. And even if hellions make you safe, it's not like opening hellions is getting an enormous advantage. oO But Terrans have figured out the roach timings. That's why no one does them any more. Just a week after IPL3, Stephano lost to Boxer because he did a stupid roach timing vs reactor hellions. If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard. You are making it sound like TvZ is heavily Terran favored, when in fact it is the most balanced non-mirror matchup. No he's not, he's clarifying a fact. Where in his post does he cite incorrect match-up statistics, or imply Terran is ultimately stronger? If the Zerg had a build which dealt with THE goto build in TvZ, Zergs would use it. Unfortunately, roaches suck and scouting is hard.ie. Zergs have no way of dealing with the goto build in TvZ, meaning that there is an imbalance. If that's your way of thinking, I don't know what to say. My comment was merely saying that reactor hellions will ALWAYS do their job. They will deny scouting, prevent a third, stop creep spread OR they will force roaches. Either situation is beneficial to Terran. By your way of thinking, 15 hatch vs Terran is imbalanced. Terrans cannot punish a Zerg for going 15 hatch, therefore they cannot deal with the goto ZvT build, therefore imba!! You're still saying that hellions will ALWAYS put Terran into a advantageous position, and an upperhand in the matchup. The 15 hatch example is a bad analogy for what you are saying. It does not ALWAYS give Zerg the upper hand. Terran can do early aggression or fast expand himself. I said beneficial, not advantageous. If Terrans couldn't move out vs Zerg after speed was done, the matchup would be Zerg favoured. Terrans would be complaining exactly like how Protoss complain about Zerg. Just because hellions will be good for Terran every game doesn't mean Terran imba. It means it is a solid build, just like 1 rax expand vs P, 15 hatch vs T. It is a build that does not fall behind against anything, except some ridiculously risky shenanigans.
Whatever. I just can't comprehend how you can say that Zergs have no way of dealing with the "goto build in TvZ" and "roaches suck and scouting is hard" one moment, then claim you weren't balance whining the next.
Hopefully we can all agree that TvZ is balanced quite well and no need for QQ.
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On December 04 2011 21:09 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. Dimaga had some really bad roach slips, and bad zergling angles. Morrow didn't build any simcity, and had like 1 spinecrawler, and thorzain built like 200 hellions. Idra vs Puma, idra got greedy, puma punished. ]As it is now, zergs simply don't build enough spinecrawlers, nor enough roaches.
I don't understand how they think 2 spinecrawlers is going to defend against 8 hellions? Just do the mineral cost math....
The major problem that zergs do have, that I think they're trying to figure out, is trying to find out whether or not its just going to be 4-6 hellions, or much more? But to tell the truth, just those NASL games, the zergs really under built defense.
2 spines, 2 queen that's 600 minerals, 8 hellions that's 800 minerals.
So yeah, from the cost point of view it should be more than enough considering that :
1) static defense is supposed to be much stronger in a fight that highly mobile units
2) Helion are specialised against light unit, and neither queens nor spines are light.
I don't know how you do your "mineral cost math" but if you think that a player with 600 mineral of static defense should outright die to 800 minerals of harassement units, you are out of your mind. Not to mention, that there is usually some zerglings there too.
Making more spines is suicidal, for the simple fact that if you rely too much on spines you die to a tank push. I dare you to find a way to defend a push like the puma vs Idra on shattered temple, with 3 spines or more (with a defensive build, not an all in aggression).
The correct answer is not to overproduce defense, it's just to outmicro the terran.
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mineral cost math is so not useful in this scenario. that's like saying that we terrans should build 20 turrets around our 2 bases to protect against mutas.
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On December 04 2011 22:08 bLah. wrote:
mineral cost math is so not useful in this scenario. that's like saying that we terrans should build 20 turrets around our 2 bases to protect against mutas.
Maybe terrans should but since turrets are a far harder counter to mutas then spines are to hellions it's just not necessary further supporting my opinion of the far too powerful hellion in the early game.
We're in a stage where hellions almost feel like reapers prepatch.
Even on creep Hellions can kite queens forever and spines have far too low rate of fire to be effective against hellions.
Look at this replay http://drop.sc/67059 and tell me that 4 hellions are supposed to pass a wall of two queens and spinecrawlers to then have free reign in the zerg eco.
As seen in the leenock vs jjakji game even runbys with 40+ speedlings don't do anything. They don't even make up for their cost because they kill no workers at all if one marine is present. 6 hellions on the opposite eradicate mineral lines in seconds.
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TvZ for sure. It looks like the match up that is most evolved to me. It's one of my favorites to watch but not my most favorite.
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On December 05 2011 00:08 Simonius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 22:08 bLah. wrote:
mineral cost math is so not useful in this scenario. that's like saying that we terrans should build 20 turrets around our 2 bases to protect against mutas. Maybe terrans should but since turrets are a far harder counter to mutas then spines are to hellions it's just not necessary further supporting my opinion of the far too powerful hellion in the early game. We're in a stage where hellions almost feel like reapers prepatch. Even on creep Hellions can kite queens forever and spines have far too low rate of fire to be effective against hellions. Look at this replay http://drop.sc/67059 and tell me that 4 hellions are supposed to pass a wall of two queens and spinecrawlers to then have free reign in the zerg eco.
As seen in the leenock vs jjakji game even runbys with 40+ speedlings don't do anything. They don't even make up for their cost because they kill no workers at all if one marine is present. 6 hellions on the opposite eradicate mineral lines in seconds.
Stop using these weird comparisons. The reason 40 speedlings didn't do anything was because jjakji had amazing simcity. (screw amazing, it was the single most brilliant form of depot simcity I've ever witnessed). I've seen foreigners get completely decimated by such a runby. Anyway all the top korean zergs have this hellion thing completely figured out and it's only the foreign zergs that seem to be struggling with it.
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i disagree with people saying that ZvZ is unstable. it is my best MU and i think i know a lot about it!
1) zergling baneling wars are an all-in, whichever way you look at it. when a zerg is not producing drones and does not have 50 drones, its an all-in. and they happen. on some maps they are VERY powerful and its become standard (tal'darim alter because there is no ramp). on other maps it is not very effective but still used every once in a while to catch their opponent being to greedy.
2) the lots of different roach timings, are all-ins. they too are just like zergling baneling wars. the zerg stops producing drones, and most likely does not have 50 drones (if they do then it is a stupid timing attack). the idea is that when you push out wiht your roahces, the opponent made a round of drones so has less units and your roaches kill him. once again this is meant to catch your opponent being too greedy.
3) for the mid game there are currently 2 different styles. there is mutalisks/zergling/baneling (roaches sometimes) and roach, hydra, (sometimes), infestor. these 2 different styles have their ups and downs and really (in my opinion) make this match up so cool. there are 2 different styles that can be played, each just as effective and both having their ups and downs.
that is the reason why i think ZvZ is so developed. but really in the end TvZ is the most developed!
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I think TvZ is the most similar to what it was in BW and therefore a lot of the match-up and the tactics have been figured out in general and just needed adapting.
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It's clearly TvT, TvZ is just retarded because of ghost.
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On December 04 2011 21:49 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 21:09 wei2coolman wrote:On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. Dimaga had some really bad roach slips, and bad zergling angles. Morrow didn't build any simcity, and had like 1 spinecrawler, and thorzain built like 200 hellions. Idra vs Puma, idra got greedy, puma punished. ]As it is now, zergs simply don't build enough spinecrawlers, nor enough roaches.
I don't understand how they think 2 spinecrawlers is going to defend against 8 hellions? Just do the mineral cost math....
The major problem that zergs do have, that I think they're trying to figure out, is trying to find out whether or not its just going to be 4-6 hellions, or much more? But to tell the truth, just those NASL games, the zergs really under built defense. 2 spines, 2 queen that's 600 minerals, 8 hellions that's 800 minerals. So yeah, from the cost point of view it should be more than enough considering that : 1) static defense is supposed to be much stronger in a fight that highly mobile units 2) Helion are specialised against light unit, and neither queens nor spines are light. I don't know how you do your "mineral cost math" but if you think that a player with 600 mineral of static defense should outright die to 800 minerals of harassement units, you are out of your mind. Not to mention, that there is usually some zerglings there too. Making more spines is suicidal, for the simple fact that if you rely too much on spines you die to a tank push. I dare you to find a way to defend a push like the puma vs Idra on shattered temple, with 3 spines or more (with a defensive build, not an all in aggression). The correct answer is not to overproduce defense, it's just to outmicro the terran.
._. Because you totally don't use those queens for something else. It's like me saying I can't deal with baneling pushes even though I have invested as much as the zerg in defense as he has in army because I got 400 minerals in marines and 400 minerals in a cc, and they got 650 minerals/150 gas invested.
Also, the best way to do it is to either get roaches, or get speedlings and 1/2 spines, when the terran runs in you attack him so that he can't get past you without killing your lings meanwhile being in range of the spines.
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On December 05 2011 01:10 Theovide wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 21:49 Elean wrote:On December 04 2011 21:09 wei2coolman wrote:On December 04 2011 11:10 Simonius wrote:On December 04 2011 10:29 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2011 10:28 Simonius wrote:
Wow...TvZ is actually not developed at all. Judging from recent games it's in an absolutely ridiculous state right now...... What are you talking about lol. What is the answer to hellions? They completely dominate tvz early and terran can do pretty much anything behind it. Dimaga vs Bratok Thorzain vs MorroW Idra vs Puma. Unbelievable how alleged top zergs lose to completely standard terran pushes because hellions cloak every tech choice/path of the game... I am aware that you are a far better player than me and have obviously much more knowledge when it comes to play but how can you explain that top zergs frequently lose to completely standard stuff giving the terran quick and easy wins while the zerg has to force every single win out of the terran in a nerv wrecking +25 minute game...... terran early game is way to safe. Dimaga had some really bad roach slips, and bad zergling angles. Morrow didn't build any simcity, and had like 1 spinecrawler, and thorzain built like 200 hellions. Idra vs Puma, idra got greedy, puma punished. ]As it is now, zergs simply don't build enough spinecrawlers, nor enough roaches.
I don't understand how they think 2 spinecrawlers is going to defend against 8 hellions? Just do the mineral cost math....
The major problem that zergs do have, that I think they're trying to figure out, is trying to find out whether or not its just going to be 4-6 hellions, or much more? But to tell the truth, just those NASL games, the zergs really under built defense. 2 spines, 2 queen that's 600 minerals, 8 hellions that's 800 minerals. So yeah, from the cost point of view it should be more than enough considering that : 1) static defense is supposed to be much stronger in a fight that highly mobile units 2) Helion are specialised against light unit, and neither queens nor spines are light. I don't know how you do your "mineral cost math" but if you think that a player with 600 mineral of static defense should outright die to 800 minerals of harassement units, you are out of your mind. Not to mention, that there is usually some zerglings there too. Making more spines is suicidal, for the simple fact that if you rely too much on spines you die to a tank push. I dare you to find a way to defend a push like the puma vs Idra on shattered temple, with 3 spines or more (with a defensive build, not an all in aggression). The correct answer is not to overproduce defense, it's just to outmicro the terran. ._. Because you totally don't use those queens for something else. It's like me saying I can't deal with baneling pushes even though I have invested as much as the zerg in defense as he has in army because I got 400 minerals in marines and 400 minerals in a cc, and they got 650 minerals/150 gas invested. Also, the best way to do it is to either get roaches, or get speedlings and 1/2 spines, when the terran runs in you attack him so that he can't get past you without killing your lings meanwhile being in range of the spines.
Queens are fighting units and can take part of the fight. Unless you find a way to make the cc take part in the fight, it's just stupid. You can use a planetary fortress instead for the sake of the example.
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TvT is far and away the most developed matchup, simply because every single unit has a place in the arsenal, even in the endgame. Even the hardly-ever-seen-in-any-other-matchup BCs and Ravens get prime stage time as we approach the end game. The only really underused unit so far is the Ghost, as aside from a few rushes you hardly ever see them, but as the Raven/BC endgame starts becoming more and more prevalent, and people start to realize exactly how useful Nukes are, we'll see a resurgence of them.
TvZ is second, but we still have a ways to go here. It's the most exciting matchup to watch, as this matchup is balanced on a blade's edge (not so much as PvP, but close). Catch the Terran out of position just one time, and the game is more or less finished. Waste some banelings, or decide to engage just a little too early or late with your banes, or mistime your flank just slightly, and the Zerg can end up in an unrecoverable hole just as easily. Hydras don't really see a use, but you also don't see Terrans going for any heavy air play. Both have some viability in different situations, we just haven't seen anyone really take advantage of them yet.
TvZ and TvT both have the "feel" of how SC2 should be -- some good back and forth, both have good offensive and defensive options at all points of the game, because Tanks and burrowed banelings give the races an effective way to control space while using the rest of their army to move around and grab more territory. It's a very nice dance when performed properly.
TvP is so borked right now. Colossi, Storms, and EMP are all overpowered in their own way, which almost makes it feel balanced. Balanced doesn't particularly mean interesting though. Mass bio from Terran, mass Gateway from protoss. Mix in Vikings and Ghosts vs. Colossi and Templar. If you made too many vikings and they went heavier templar, Terran dies to storms. If they remake colossi and you're sitting on a bunch of ghosts and too few vikings, you're just as dead. But on the other hand, if a Terran keeps good recon and balances their army just right, coupled with some good drops, they can seem almost unbeatable. It feels balanced, though currently a lot harder for Terran to play than Protoss, but mostly it's just boring because there's not many real options for Terran other than balance your support units properly and pray you've reconned correctly. Also, mass zealot reinforcements make it harder to punish a Protoss after the Terran breaks him than it is for a Terran to just die after his army's wiped out.
ZvP is still developing. I think we'll feel better about this matchup after HotS, when Protoss has a good way to deal with mass Mutalisk strategies. We still don't see nearly enough baneling drops, or warp prism harass, or late game DTs to deny expos. They're starting to show up, though, and I'm excited to see where it goes.
ZvZ has seen a renaissance of sorts as of late. I'm really digging the mutaling style that has emerged, and am excited to see games actually reach Lair tech consistently (and occasionally even a hive!). It's still a very micro-intensive battle in the early game, which makes it fun to watch, but also makes it stressful as hell to play. There was some Ultra play before that I didn't think was very viable, but I'm liking seeing some Brood Lords come out recently. We're seeing Zerg start to branch out from the "ling/roach/bling into roach/infestor" play, and it's looking very sexy.
PvP. Yikes. What is there to say here? I think this matchup is screwed until HotS. Once the warp in on someone's high ground mechanic is removed, I think we'll see the early gateway pressures disappear almost entirely and we'll see how this matchup is actually supposed to look. We see flashes of it occasionally, with the occasional robo play, but right now it's either a 4gate, blinkstalker, or 3gate robo and chrono an immortal matchup, with the very rare stargate play mixed in.
So I say: TvT, TvZ, TvP, ZvP, ZvZ, and PvP, in that order. Whether it's because Terran has more options so those matchups feel more developed, or it's because there's been so many Terrans in GSL that we've seen everything, I'm not sure. But I'm excited to see what HotS does to our perceptions of all of these matchups.
TLDR: The TvT and TvZ matchups feel the most developed because they are the only matchups that have a good sense of space control with the usage of Siege Tanks and burrowed banelings. When space-controlling options become more prevalent in the other matchups, we'll see them feeling as awesome as those matchups. Maybe some hope coming in HotS?
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EPT
