|
Most
TvT: Early, mid and late game are mapped out. Early game can be fragile, but only if both players go for a 'kill scvs' build. If a player wants to play a macro game, it will be a macro game, because defending is quite easy. Air, bio and mech are all utilised, fast expos, fast tech, early all ins, proxy stuff, everything is used. Every unit in the Terran arsenal is used extensively (literally all of them). Reapers, Ravens, Battlecruisers are relatively common.
TvZ: Zergs still lose to random timing attacks and 2 rax. Terran has a million openers and people still don't know what is good and what isn't.
The other matchups have virtually no true 'metagame'. What's better in ZvP? Ling bling infestor, or roach infestor? Are mutas best ZvZ? In a blink observer vs blink observer game, does the person with earlier blink have advantage, or earlier immortal? Such simple questions have no answers. PvP is especially bad, because people lose games based on micro and not decision making. Zergs are still not able to close out build order advantages. 14/14 players still lose to a 9 pool player after taking 0 dmg
|
even though the "population" is quite small, I have to wonder why people could think that PvP is the most developed match-up...it's by far the least, since 4gate vs 4gate pretty much delayed any development for about a year
I totally agree on TvZ - even though zergs still lose to the occasional cheese the builds are "very" tight, which means that the zerg builds usually have the potential to hold everything if they execute perfectly. Which is how it should be. If you do everything right, you hold and it doesn't matter if your opponent is MVP. If you make mistakes, you deserve to lose, even if it may be a low master or we.
|
Ummm, a MU doesn´t need to be well balanced n at all points of the MU...
Look at the the BW MUs the balance of power in all MUs shifter constantly through all the game. Or unless I got you wrong..
Overall I think all MUs are quite figured out, but not really to the level of being well developed. Maybe TvT but overall I feel none of the Mus has been quite figured out. Just look at some games, after midgame many MUs feel kinda directionless. ZvT i feel Zergs are still struggling to find the right Hive timming, when to stop massing Mutas and stuff like that. PvZ P feels just lost(But oh well the same could be said about BW PvZ XD) TvP I feel that the T are the ones who have no endgame plan once Colossi and HT hit the field, P actually seem to have a more developed gameplan in that MU.
ZvZ both players seems too lost all game long. Wonky Hive\lair timmings, overaggressive, expansion timmings seem off.
TvT as i said I feel its the more developed one so no complaint here.
PvP has been getting better but lol still needs a long way to go. Early game is quite well figured out but once they have to take the nat i feel the MU feels kinda directionless.
ZvP I feel its more developed in the Zerg side, P are still struggling after they take their nat.(But oh well as I said PvZ felt similar in BW IMO)
ZvT I feel is much more figured out by the T than the Z. I feel Zergs still don't know when to transition into Hive safely
PvT I actually feel is more figured out by the P. They have an endgame plan while T feels kinda lost once Bio starts losing power when the insane P splash damage is out(and with the EMP nerf heh). I actually feel T will have to revise this MU in the near future. Early game is hard for P but overall that doesn't mean anything as they know how to defend it. Just because something is figured out doesn't mean that it has to be easy.
but yeah i still feel it needs much more figuring out, tech timmings don't feel as crisp as in BW. Transitions feel off, players overcommit too much.
I am not saying they are not entertaining mind you. I am just saying they have a lot more to figure out.
I don't know why people are complaining about spells. No Spell(except maybe snipe and so far it only has looked OP when MVP does it) seems too dominant at the moment and all can be dealt with.
Also a MU being figured out goes beyond unit compositions and standard play, its all about transitioning to the right tech at the same time, knowing the timming of when your current tech has started giving diminishing returrns and overall gameplan beyond "I will get mure bases dur hur".
Well SC2 is a young game still and its fun to watch still. All MUs need a lot of growing up
|
I'm really optimistic for TvP in Hots, the addition of battle hellions and warhounds will make this matchup so much better making all 3 Terran matchups the best in the game.
|
On November 22 2011 00:10 KobyKat wrote:
TvZ seems the least developed to me, we still go mainly marine tank medivac. My vote goes to TvT because that's where the most innovation comes from.
so you want raven thor reaper or something ? its by far the most developed matchup imo
|
TvP may be stable, but I don't really like where it is. The diversity of strategies for both sides seems pretty limited.
TvZ has always been my favorite match up and for me is the iconic game of Starcraft 1 & 2. I think it is the most figured out and the most fun to play and watch.
|
TvT by far is the most developed. There are no arguments about what to transition to at different points in the game, no talk about a certain style being "unbeatable," even on certain maps. It all comes down to the individual execution of 3 styles of play after an initial set-up early game. To top it off, the early game is never defined as "coinflippy."
|
On November 22 2011 00:13 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
I personally think TvT is the most developed MU because usually the best player always wins,it's not like ZvZ where in a flip of a coin a player like IM.NesTea can lose to TLAF'Liquid.HayprO
this post deserves a ban
|
Protoss have been doing better in tournaments again but it does still feel like all of their match-ups are underdeveloped due to the design of the race. I don't see this getting fixed in HotS because Blizzard doesn't seem to have any interest in altering warpgate or significantly changing the race. I'm personally disappointed that even after all these changes PvP still isn't really a matchup that goes past one base versus one base, other than once a player is far ahead they take a natural just as a final nail in the coffin.
|
On November 22 2011 01:56 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 01:07 sereniity wrote:On November 22 2011 01:02 xCenasfu wrote:On November 22 2011 00:41 teamsolid wrote:-Forcefields can be frustrating to watch sometimes because they usually seem like an all-or-nothing spell (they completely limit the other player's ability to micro) Moving your units as a clump is not micro. Using stimpack or guardian shielf isn't micro. A-moving Roaches isn't micro.. I think you missed the point lol.... How exactly do you micro units that can't move? Exactly, Fungal Growth is frustrating to watch.
Fungal growth is interesting imo. You can micro around it with splitting and " dodging"
Centries are generally harder to dodge.
|
I think it goes to show how much mature the thought process behind Terran was that the TvT mirror matchup is so much more stable and even the BFH phase did not make every high-level TvT game a worker-burn-fest. All units are used to a certain extent, while in PvP Void Rays, Carriers, Motherships etc are really rare, earlygame is really coinflippy and expansion timings... wait, expansions? 2base at most for PvP.
ZvZ is similar, but not as bad. At least you frequently get macro games, there is a standard opening (15 hatch) and there are a set few styles which work pretty well (early game: ling/bane, roach/ling. Midgame Roach/Hydra, Roach/Muta/ling. Lategame more Infestors come out), and multiple bases are common. However, you still sometimes get... not so much coinflippy, but really tense and fast moments like Bane/ling vs Bane/ling.
As far as matchups are concerned?
Honourable mention: Old PvP was pretty developed, when it was just 4gate vs 4gate. It wasn't pretty, but the intricacies in the 4gating were pretty developed. I didn't like it, but it was pretty developed.
TvT is the most developed.
TvZ is the second most developed.
ZvZ is the third most developed.
|
On November 22 2011 04:02 windsupernova wrote:
Ummm, a MU doesn´t need to be well balanced n at all points of the MU...
Look at the the BW MUs the balance of power in all MUs shifter constantly through all the game. Or unless I got you wrong..
Well, I'd call a MU balanced at each stage of the game, if you can't lose at any future point as long as you haven't made a mistake yet and play it "perfectly" and leads to similar overall winrates.
I guess this is discusable, as theoretically it would be enough if the MU had something ~50:50 winrates, but if this can only be achieved via "coinflips" or one race only having a limited amount of time to beat the other one I would call the game badly designed.
|
On November 22 2011 04:21 CandyHunterz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 00:13 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
I personally think TvT is the most developed MU because usually the best player always wins,it's not like ZvZ where in a flip of a coin a player like IM.NesTea can lose to TLAF'Liquid.HayprO this post deserves a ban
why? it's the truth. TvT we see the better player win way more than other mirrors. Do you think MvP would lose to Jinro? lol
|
On November 22 2011 04:53 fatworthlessvirgin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 04:21 CandyHunterz wrote:On November 22 2011 00:13 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
I personally think TvT is the most developed MU because usually the best player always wins,it's not like ZvZ where in a flip of a coin a player like IM.NesTea can lose to TLAF'Liquid.HayprO this post deserves a ban why? it's the truth. TvT we see the better player win way more than other mirrors. Do you think MvP would lose to Jinro? lol
No it isn't, that's flat out idiotic. Nestea still wins 95% of his ZvZs. So he lost a series to BBoong in AoL and lost a series to Haypro. But instead of giving credit where credit is due, and acknowledging that even Nestea and MVP are human, no, Nestea MUST WIN ALL HIS ZvZs ALWAYS ALWAYS or the match up makes no sense at all.
MVP has lost TvTs to Terrans that would be considered worse than him.
|
2 % pvz ? you people are funny 
|
PvT. The end all be all, will always be ht's, colossus, archons. All that can change are the timings.
PvZ hasn't reached mass ravens, medivac, marine, ghosts yet and it's a long road ahead.
|
On November 22 2011 05:07 ejozl wrote:
PvZ hasn't reached mass ravens, medivac, marine, ghosts yet and it's a long road ahead.
If PvZ ever uses any of those units I will be quite shocked 
|
TvZ is such a dynamic matchup and fun micro-wise for both sides. A lot of different possible strategies, most of them viable and a tough, but rewarding endgame as well.
It's by far the most developed (at least since they nerfed the hellion otherwise it would be TvT), although TvT endgame is very advanced as well.
|
TvT because of defenders advantage and the lack of volatility of early game counter attacks due to the power of defensive siege tank timings. TvZ for the same reason.
PvT is probably a Protoss' most stable matchup, with most games ending in more or less the same manner - one of the two deathballs killing each other.
Most fun is TvZ.
|
I think that TvT was strongly affected by the Blue Flame nerf, not quite as much as PvP was affected by WG nerf, but it changed the balance between bio and mech yet again. TvT is still probably the most "figured out" match-up, though, in that we have seen the most GSL games in that match-up.
I still regularly see pro-level TvTs today that look indistinguishable from games played 9 months ago (though perhaps with more bio now). That isn't true of any other match-up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
