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United States2302 Posts
Blizzard finally decided to tell us a way that will almost guarantee us to get a promotion 
About time if you ask me! :D
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/3947374/Climbing_the_Ladder_How_to_Earn_a_League_Promotion-11_15_2011#c-3595509581
Each new ladder season, we see many players on the community forums asking, “What do I need to do to earn a League promotion?” This post should provide you with enough information to answer that question.
One way to almost guarantee a promotion by next season is to earn the number of division ladder points given in the corresponding table entry below by December 13, in anticipation of a December 20 season roll.*
Q: Is this the only way to be promoted?
A: No, this is just one fairly reliable way. Some players may be promoted before reaching this number, and a rare few may remain in their current league after reaching the value. This rare few can expect a mid-season promotion if they maintain their skill level during the next season.
Q: How do I get my ladder points that high?
A: The only way to gain these points is to win more than you lose for a sustained period. For example, if you look at your match history and have won at least 12 of your last 20 games, you’re on the right track. Keep it up!
*Note:This assumes season 4 ends the week of December 19. This date is subject to change.
Target ladder point values for next season promotion, by region:
+ Show Spoiler +US 1v1 2v2 Random 2v2 Arranged 3v3 Random 3v3 Arranged 4v4 Random 4v4 Arranged
Bronze to Silver 1200 1100 1000 1000 900 1000 900
Silver to Gold 800 800 700 700 700 700 700
Gold to Platinum 800 700 700 700 700 700 600
Platinum to Diamond 800 800 700 700 700 700 700
Diamond to Master 900 900 800 800 800 800 700
Master to near GM 1400
EU 1v1 2v2 Random 2v2 Arranged 3v3 Random 3v3 Arranged 4v4 Random 4v4 Arranged
Bronze to Silver 1150 1090 1000 970 890 940 830
Silver to Gold 770 740 700 690 650 670 620
Gold to Platinum 710 690 650 640 610 630 590
Platinum to Diamond 770 740 700 690 650 670 620
Diamond to Master 890 850 790 770 720 750 690
Master to near GM 1340
KR 1v1 2v2 Random 2v2 Arranged 3v3 Random 3v3 Arranged 4v4 Random 4v4 Arranged
Bronze to Silver 1170 980 910 910 830 850 790
Silver to Gold 780 690 660 660 620 630 600
Gold to Platinum 720 650 620 620 590 600 570
Platinum to Diamond 780 690 660 660 620 630 600
Diamond to Master 900 780 740 740 690 700 660
Master to near GM 1350
SG 1v1 2v2 Random 2v2 Arranged 3v3 Random 3v3 Arranged 4v4 Random 4v4 Arranged
Bronze to Silver 1090 960 930 890 840 860 780
Silver to Gold 740 680 670 650 630 640 600
Gold to Platinum 690 640 630 610 590 600 570
Platinum to Diamond 740 680 670 650 630 640 600
Diamond to Master 850 770 750 720 690 710 650
Master to near GM 1280
CN 1v1 2v2 Random 2v2 Arranged 3v3 Random 3v3 Arranged 4v4 Random 4v4 Arranged
Bronze to Silver 1000 940 880 900 830 880 830
Silver to Gold 700 670 640 650 620 650 620
Gold to Platinum 650 630 610 620 590 610 590
Platinum to Diamond 700 670 640 650 620 650 620
Diamond to Master 790 750 720 730 690 720 680
Master to near GM 1200
TY Blizzard!
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United States2302 Posts
I don;t know how to make a table 
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Can anyone explain the difference in points between regions?
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Interesting around 1400 Points to GrandMasters in NA? Woah... got 850 points to go until GM
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Interesting.. thanks for posting
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i believe the difference in points between regions is related to server population.
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These are the points we can see right? not the mmr?
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thanks :D
but now i need to play more T_T almost 500 in platinum T_T
On November 16 2011 02:19 Dujek wrote:
Can anyone explain the difference in points between regions?
well i think that is considering the lower and upper points in the league in each region.
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I'm at 843 points... so at an average of 12 points per day from bonus pool (starting today till Dec 19), that is 35 days * 12 points = 420 points. Damn, only 1263... I'm still short about 140 points to GM
So really anyone who is at 980 points or higher right now in NA Masters is playing at a GM level (assuming no bonus pool).
We should have a table for when to expect to get demoted.
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You guys are doing it wrong: The points Blizz is talking about is not the points that you are having (at least I think). Else their statement that you have to win over 50% of the time for a long period of time wouldn't make sense. If I play 1 game every day my bonuspool is more than enough to gain me a steady income of points if I keep a 50% winrate. So I guess they are talking about other points. Also it would be stupid to need more points to get from Bronze to Silver then from Silver to Gold.
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Is there a way to see how many points you have currently?
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On November 16 2011 02:28 Elendoil wrote:
You guys are doing it wrong: The points Blizz is talking about is not the points that you are having (at least I think). Else their statement that you have to win over 50% of the time for a long period of time wouldn't make sense. If I play 1 game every day my bonuspool is more than enough to gain me a steady income of points if I keep a 50% winrate. So I guess they are talking about other points. Also it would be stupid to need more points to get from Bronze to Silver then from Silver to Gold.
No, they're talking about points. Your bonus pool is probably not enough to get you over that level by the end of the season. So that's where winning over 50% of the time comes in.
Also each division is different, it doesn't matter that you need more points from B -> S than S -> G because when you get promoted your point total changes, if I remember correctly.
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Awee but I want to stay in Bronze
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On November 16 2011 02:28 mahi29 wrote:
Is there a way to see how many points you have currently?
Yes, log onto Battle.net and check your ladder points...
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So, in translation and less detail: just win lol
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I play like at most 20 games a season, though I win more than I lose. Does that mean I'll never be promoted?
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On November 16 2011 02:38 SpeaKEaSY wrote:
I play like at most 20 games a season, though I win more than I lose. Does that mean I'll never be promoted?
No it'll just take a lot longer than one season for you to get promoted.
The new figures they've released are just a way of measuring the current system, the system itself hasn't changed.
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This is kind of nice, gives people a goal!
On November 16 2011 02:28 mahi29 wrote:
Is there a way to see how many points you have currently?
Yes go to SC2, click on leagues and ladders, and under points are your points!
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who wouldda thought you had to PLAY GAMES to get promoted?
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1400 is a joke for near grandmaster.... that means at 1600 or so i should have been promoted instead of sitting in master still...
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On November 16 2011 02:45 KiF1rE wrote:
1400 is a joke for near grandmaster.... that means at 1600 or so i should have been promoted instead of sitting in master still...
It says near grandmaster, GM obviously works a bit differently than the other leagues.
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Fuck that - I'm getting promoted this week. No waiting for a month ~~
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On November 16 2011 02:45 KiF1rE wrote:
1400 is a joke for near grandmaster.... that means at 1600 or so i should have been promoted instead of sitting in master still...
You do realize it's not talking about S3, right?
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So if I would just grind out games vs high diamond/mid diamond while losing all my games to masters player would I as a diamond player be able to reach 900 points and thus hopefully be masters next season?
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On November 16 2011 02:45 KiF1rE wrote:
1400 is a joke for near grandmaster.... that means at 1600 or so i should have been promoted instead of sitting in master still...
I believe this chart is only for seasons that are 2 months long (season 4 onwards), so applying the 1600 points you had on season 3 doesn't work here.
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On November 16 2011 02:51 Kodak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:45 KiF1rE wrote:
1400 is a joke for near grandmaster.... that means at 1600 or so i should have been promoted instead of sitting in master still... You do realize it's not talking about S3, right?
s3 was the same 2 month length, so the values should still hold true... and if they truly mean near grandmaster because it works differently this stupid announcement from blizzard has actually 0 value to a competitive player asking the question, of how do i actually earn a league promotion.... besides crush GM's and still be stuck in masters? in season 3 i was getting paired with players like RSVP when they were in the top 16 range of GM. and im still masters why?
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On November 16 2011 02:56 KiF1rE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:51 Kodak wrote:On November 16 2011 02:45 KiF1rE wrote:
1400 is a joke for near grandmaster.... that means at 1600 or so i should have been promoted instead of sitting in master still... You do realize it's not talking about S3, right? s3 was the same 2 month length, so the values should still hold true... and if they truly mean near grandmaster because it works differently this stupid announcement from blizzard has actually 0 value to a competitive player asking the question, of how do i actually earn a league promotion.... besides crush GM's and still be stuck in masters? in season 3 i was getting paired with players like RSVP when they were in the top 16 range of GM. and im still masters why? Likely cause the league is full?
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On November 16 2011 02:45 KiF1rE wrote:
1400 is a joke for near grandmaster.... that means at 1600 or so i should have been promoted instead of sitting in master still...
I think this is for the upcoming rollover, not this most recent one.
Also, any hard number like that is subject to change-- the competition for grandmaster is surely quite brutal, and will only get moreso with shorter seasons, I think.
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How much is the current bonus pool increase for each league? Didn't they change it for lower leagues recently?
(I'm interested in Plat)
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On November 16 2011 02:57 Elem wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:56 KiF1rE wrote:On November 16 2011 02:51 Kodak wrote:On November 16 2011 02:45 KiF1rE wrote:
1400 is a joke for near grandmaster.... that means at 1600 or so i should have been promoted instead of sitting in master still... You do realize it's not talking about S3, right? s3 was the same 2 month length, so the values should still hold true... and if they truly mean near grandmaster because it works differently this stupid announcement from blizzard has actually 0 value to a competitive player asking the question, of how do i actually earn a league promotion.... besides crush GM's and still be stuck in masters? in season 3 i was getting paired with players like RSVP when they were in the top 16 range of GM. and im still masters why? Likely cause the league is full?
i didnt play the day it was bugged, then i played when the ineligbles were kicked and still didnt get promoted. and yes now it is full, despite the lower levels of GM being terrible.
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Idk this is kinda dumb lol, I mean who would of thought that the more you win, the better chance you have of moving up lolol. Whatever need 300more points for masters gogogo!!!
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people have to realize that they are probably not factoring in bonus pool but who knows..If your 300 points off..thats 30 games you have to win if your playing evenly matched people..probably around 25 to be more consistent..and this is without losses.
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I want to give some further discussion about this new revealed promotion system.
1. for a long time we know that Blizzard always use MMR system to promote/demote between leagues. Yet this system has some kind of known issues that it's quite hard for some ppl to promote if you have just played too many games. Your MMR is so stable that you may be required to win more games to promote than a fresh account.
2. based on the previous MMR promotion/demotion system, if you are a top 3 diamond player who constantly facing top 8 diamond or low master opponent, your MMR is the same as low master player who constantly facing low master opponent or top 8 diamond. Though top 3 diamond/ low master have the same MMR, they are in different league, and actually it's hard for the MMR system to promote top 3 diamond to master league and demote low master to diamond league. This is just system design flaw to use pure MMR to promote/demote.
3. one obvious point is that Blizzard want us to play more ladder games. This is why we have a shorter season. This is why we have grandmaster league. Yet under the pure MMR promotion/demotion system, it makes ppl in the high end tier of each league reluctant to play. Coz you need to win way more games which requires a significant improve of your skills. It's just too hard to do that in a short time so players are just tired and stop playing due to not gaining any benefit from playing more.
4. Blizzard new system is encouraging ppl to play more, which is basically if you play more, and have a slightly winning advantage in your recent record (not a significant advantage as required by previous MMR system) you will get promote in the next season. By this means, if you are in top 3 diamond, and your win/loss ratio is OK, you will be guaranteed to be in master league next season.
5. well, we all have to remember: league is just percentage. Some ppl got promotion indicates some ppl will be demoted So who are those poor guys under then new system? As in the previous example, it's highly possible that the former low master player who constantly facing low master opponent or top 8 diamond will be demoted. But that's kind of fair for the general principle: if you dont work hard, you fail! So is starcraft II laddering. If you dont ladder hard, BANG, you have been replaced into XXX league and lose your former league pride
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I think this is good information to have out there so people realize how many games it actually takes to get promoted. Gotta work for those medals.
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i want to see excalibur_z thoughts on that post.
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On November 16 2011 02:59 KiF1rE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:57 Elem wrote:On November 16 2011 02:56 KiF1rE wrote:On November 16 2011 02:51 Kodak wrote:On November 16 2011 02:45 KiF1rE wrote:
1400 is a joke for near grandmaster.... that means at 1600 or so i should have been promoted instead of sitting in master still... You do realize it's not talking about S3, right? s3 was the same 2 month length, so the values should still hold true... and if they truly mean near grandmaster because it works differently this stupid announcement from blizzard has actually 0 value to a competitive player asking the question, of how do i actually earn a league promotion.... besides crush GM's and still be stuck in masters? in season 3 i was getting paired with players like RSVP when they were in the top 16 range of GM. and im still masters why? Likely cause the league is full? i didnt play the day it was bugged, then i played when the ineligbles were kicked and still didnt get promoted. and yes now it is full, despite the lower levels of GM being terrible.
if MMR is a value that is always rising as the top players get better and continue to play, then the point values for each season should be different.
Thats why is season's 2-3 it took players like 2-3 weeks to hit 1k points when in season 4 they hit 1k in the first week.
stop QQing about not getting GM. There's a number in front of you, go get it
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Canada4885 Posts
You guys don't get it. You can't just get enough points by playing enough.
The point "requirements" are more than your bonus pool will accrue all season. This means that you absolutely must have a winrate > 50% in order to be promoted. What that means is your MMR is climbing.
They still use MMR as an indicator of promotions (which is why they say these are approximates and not exact numbers). They are just estimating what number of points will get your MMR high enough.
On the other hand, if you win 30 games in a row you'll probably be promoted regardless of your point total (because your MMR will have climbed enough).
Basically they are just using ladder points to approximate when your MMR will have reached high enough.
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The only way to gain these points is to win more than you lose for a sustained period.
No shit sherlock... Why do people care so much about the system. All the attention you commit to it, you should redirect to improving your gameplay. System just puts you to the league with people that have similar results to you. It's about performance. Play well long enaugh and you'll get promoted. You can't do anything but that. There is no magic ways to advance to higher leagues, just play better and stop caring about it.
It's exactly the same with fat people that are obsessed with diets, pills and other magic crap that they think will make them fit in blink of an eye, when in reality they just need to eat healthy, eat less and exercise more.
So if I would just grind out games vs high diamond/mid diamond while losing all my games to masters player would I as a diamond player be able to reach 900 points and thus hopefully be masters next season?
No, you have to win 50%+ games vs masters players to advance to masters league.
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On November 16 2011 02:21 XRaDiiX wrote:Interesting around 1400 Points to GrandMasters in NA? Woah... got 850 points to go until GM
Hey, off-topic but aren't you "the priest-radi" (sorry about the capital letters, my memory doesn't go THAT far) I used to see in quite a lot of 4v4 or something wc3 replays, AGGGGEEEEESSSSS ago (2005/6 ?) Or has it nothing to do ? :D
Kinda cool to see how it works, won't be of much use to me since I don't actually play sc2 though ;p
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Well atleast now I have a number to work for.
To the cheesegrinder!
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Nice, now i know i just need to aim for 1340pts  P
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Releasing this is a good idea by them.
For people who don't understand, they did a calculation on how many points you would need to have at the end of a season (a fixed time for these calculations) for your MMR to be within the promotion range to get to the next league. This gives people a point total to shoot for to get a promotion, and overall re-incentivizes people to play ladder.
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On November 16 2011 02:59 KiF1rE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:57 Elem wrote:On November 16 2011 02:56 KiF1rE wrote:On November 16 2011 02:51 Kodak wrote:On November 16 2011 02:45 KiF1rE wrote:
1400 is a joke for near grandmaster.... that means at 1600 or so i should have been promoted instead of sitting in master still... You do realize it's not talking about S3, right? s3 was the same 2 month length, so the values should still hold true... and if they truly mean near grandmaster because it works differently this stupid announcement from blizzard has actually 0 value to a competitive player asking the question, of how do i actually earn a league promotion.... besides crush GM's and still be stuck in masters? in season 3 i was getting paired with players like RSVP when they were in the top 16 range of GM. and im still masters why? Likely cause the league is full? i didnt play the day it was bugged, then i played when the ineligbles were kicked and still didnt get promoted. and yes now it is full, despite the lower levels of GM being terrible.
Stop whining.
I'm like 100 points above you in the same ladder and yet barely in the Top 200 of Masters, it's not like you are anywhere close to sniffing GM, and it has nothing to do with the GM bug.
EDIT: 160 points.
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On November 16 2011 02:21 XRaDiiX wrote:Interesting around 1400 Points to GrandMasters in NA? Woah... got 850 points to go until GM
there are a lot of ppl that i know who have around 800pts and are playing top GM so im not sure about that completely
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On November 16 2011 03:29 unit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:21 XRaDiiX wrote:Interesting around 1400 Points to GrandMasters in NA? Woah... got 850 points to go until GM there are a lot of ppl that i know who have around 800pts and are playing top GM so im not sure about that completely
1400 points at end of season. That means you need about 980 points right now to get to 1400 points, unless you go on a win streak.
I'm at 840-ish right now, and definitely play some decent grandmasters players (was playing ppl at the top last year), but that doesn't mean I'm at a GM level.
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OMG that means I need like 550 more points in diamond to get to masters
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On November 16 2011 03:33 ig0tfish wrote:OMG that means I need like 550 more points in diamond to get to masters Take 1 months point inflation into the calculation and it doesnt seem that horrible.
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cool good to know props to you for sharing
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I won less than 12 out of my last 20 games
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It's be really awesome if someone could compute the bonus pool # included in that so we could figure out where we are now.
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On November 16 2011 03:44 NATO wrote:
It's be really awesome if someone could compute the bonus pool # included in that so we could figure out where we are now.
This. Because now it's hard to imagine how much points someone gonna have by the end of the season.
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How does this tie in with the past work on MMR analysis? excalibr's if I remember correctly.
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Not sure why the cutoff for GM is so low. Should be more like 1700-1800 for AM
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I think they greatly overestimate the number of points you need to get promoted. I got promoted in 2v2s this season with far fewer points than they listed.
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Hmm this is really interesting because I've been trying to get to masters for a few months and keep scraping the cusp of the level of players I need to beat to be promoted. The amount of points is kind of insane though haha, Im at 300 currently. Only 600 more to go haha.
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So are they changing the ladder system in any, or is this just a rough ladder-points estimate to encourage people to play more?
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500 points to go til GM... tho its until 13 Dec so would need to know bonus pool left til then, anyone knows it >?
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On November 16 2011 02:28 Elendoil wrote:
You guys are doing it wrong: The points Blizz is talking about is not the points that you are having (at least I think). Else their statement that you have to win over 50% of the time for a long period of time wouldn't make sense. If I play 1 game every day my bonuspool is more than enough to gain me a steady income of points if I keep a 50% winrate. So I guess they are talking about other points. Also it would be stupid to need more points to get from Bronze to Silver then from Silver to Gold.
The point values in their table assume that you're earning 100% of your bonus pool, which is why they caveat the whole thing saying "all of this assumes the season ends the week of December 19th."
The bonus pool will only be a portion of those points. The rest of the points roughly track your MMR, and to increase MMR you generally have to win more than you lose.
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On November 16 2011 03:56 KevinIX wrote:
I think they greatly overestimate the number of points you need to get promoted. I got promoted in 2v2s this season with far fewer points than they listed.
This is how much you'd need (approx) at end of season to get promoted next season. If you're high enough you can get promoted mid-season, presumably with a much smaller # of points (since it's based on your Moving Average MMR, not your points - points is just a representation of your MMR and bonus pool).
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On November 16 2011 03:08 DoomsVille wrote:
You guys don't get it. You can't just get enough points by playing enough.
The point "requirements" are more than your bonus pool will accrue all season. This means that you absolutely must have a winrate > 50% in order to be promoted. What that means is your MMR is climbing.
They still use MMR as an indicator of promotions (which is why they say these are approximates and not exact numbers). They are just estimating what number of points will get your MMR high enough.
On the other hand, if you win 30 games in a row you'll probably be promoted regardless of your point total (because your MMR will have climbed enough).
Basically they are just using ladder points to approximate when your MMR will have reached high enough.
Thank god someone else gets it. This is not a new system, its just them giving a somewhat tangible measure of the MMR required for promotions.
Why would they do this? Probably because they are banking on people saying "oh wow I just have to get that many points, I should play more now!"
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On November 16 2011 03:56 KevinIX wrote:
I think they greatly overestimate the number of points you need to get promoted. I got promoted in 2v2s this season with far fewer points than they listed.
Those numbers are not the number of points you *need* to be promoted. Instead, what they're saying is that if you can hit those numbers, you're very likely to be promoted. For example, you may be able to get a promotion while using only a small fraction of your bonus points, and since bonus points don't affect promotion, your point value might be much lower.
However, by stating a number that assumes you've used all your bonus points, they can be relatively sure that people who hit those numbers are likely to be promoted.
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On November 16 2011 04:10 Shadrak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 03:08 DoomsVille wrote:
You guys don't get it. You can't just get enough points by playing enough.
The point "requirements" are more than your bonus pool will accrue all season. This means that you absolutely must have a winrate > 50% in order to be promoted. What that means is your MMR is climbing.
They still use MMR as an indicator of promotions (which is why they say these are approximates and not exact numbers). They are just estimating what number of points will get your MMR high enough.
On the other hand, if you win 30 games in a row you'll probably be promoted regardless of your point total (because your MMR will have climbed enough).
Basically they are just using ladder points to approximate when your MMR will have reached high enough. Thank god someone else gets it. This is not a new system, its just them giving a somewhat tangible measure of the MMR required for promotions. Why would they do this? Probably because they are banking on people saying "oh wow I just have to get that many points, I should play more now!"
Exactly.
A better way to do it is to calculate the # of points you'd need now to hit that plateau if you only accrued bonus points (it's 12/day for Masters/GM, dunno for lower leagues). And compare.
So for me, I'm at 840. I'd need 980 to hit 1400 at end of season (420 bonus points rest of season). So I'm still relatively far from hitting GM.
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Um, aren't the divisions tiered before masters? Meaning 900 points in a tier1 diamond division may be equivalent to 1800 points in a tier 7 diamond division. Doesn't this mean the points valued listed are extremely general? Or am I missing something?
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Good for people who were curious and/or wanted a ladder goal to reach for. Not good for people who see these as set in stone numbers and the second they go 3 points over that goal will whine about how they should be promoted and how the system doesn't work. Good thing this place isn't b.net general forums..
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On November 16 2011 03:53 frankster wrote:
How does this tie in with the past work on MMR analysis? excalibr's if I remember correctly.
It's consistent with it.
Your ladder score consists of two components, your earned bonus points and a residual point score.
The system adjusts your residual point score based on your league and division, then compares it with your opponent's MMR to decide how many points to award or take away based on the game's result. This allows that part of your point score to move up and down with your MMR, once you've played enough games.
Those numbers they've quoted are almost certainly worst-case numbers, meaning assuming you use all your bonus pool and probably that you're in the lowest division tier. You can tell this because they phrased it as "if you hit these numbers, you're likely to get promoted," rather than "these are the numbers you need to get promoted."
Answering what minimum score a person needs to hit to get promoted is much more complicated, because it varies by division as well as when in the season a person hits that score (due to bonus points accruing along the way.)
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On November 16 2011 04:18 stokes17 wrote:
Um, aren't the divisions tiered before masters? Meaning 900 points in a tier1 diamond division may be equivalent to 1800 points in a tier 7 diamond division. Doesn't this mean the points valued listed are extremely general? Or am I missing something?
I'd guess based on how they phrased it that these are worst-case numbers, assuming that one's in the division tier that's hardest to get promoted out of.
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On November 16 2011 02:56 KiF1rE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:51 Kodak wrote:On November 16 2011 02:45 KiF1rE wrote:
1400 is a joke for near grandmaster.... that means at 1600 or so i should have been promoted instead of sitting in master still... You do realize it's not talking about S3, right? s3 was the same 2 month length, so the values should still hold true... and if they truly mean near grandmaster because it works differently this stupid announcement from blizzard has actually 0 value to a competitive player asking the question, of how do i actually earn a league promotion.... besides crush GM's and still be stuck in masters? in season 3 i was getting paired with players like RSVP when they were in the top 16 range of GM. and im still masters why?
Season 3 was a bit over 3 months, so no.
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On November 16 2011 03:00 Sc2Null wrote:
people have to realize that they are probably not factoring in bonus pool but who knows.
They are almost certainly factoring in the bonus pool because they stated that the numbers assume that the season ends on a certain date.
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On November 16 2011 03:02 eleaf wrote:
1. for a long time we know that Blizzard always use MMR system to promote/demote between leagues. Yet this system has some kind of known issues that it's quite hard for some ppl to promote if you have just played too many games. Your MMR is so stable that you may be required to win more games to promote than a fresh account.
The implication that the system is incorrectly estimating the skill of very active players is not accurate. Regardless of how many games you've played, if you suddenly start winning more than you're losing, your MMR will trend upward.
The only impact of playing a small number of games is that the system is guessing your MMR based on a small amount of data, so you're more likely to get promoted or demoted as you play enough for it to guess your MMR more accurately.
Regardless, if you start winning more than you're losing, whether you've played 100 or 5000 games, your MMR will increase at the same rate.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On November 16 2011 04:14 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 04:10 Shadrak wrote:On November 16 2011 03:08 DoomsVille wrote:
You guys don't get it. You can't just get enough points by playing enough.
The point "requirements" are more than your bonus pool will accrue all season. This means that you absolutely must have a winrate > 50% in order to be promoted. What that means is your MMR is climbing.
They still use MMR as an indicator of promotions (which is why they say these are approximates and not exact numbers). They are just estimating what number of points will get your MMR high enough.
On the other hand, if you win 30 games in a row you'll probably be promoted regardless of your point total (because your MMR will have climbed enough).
Basically they are just using ladder points to approximate when your MMR will have reached high enough. Thank god someone else gets it. This is not a new system, its just them giving a somewhat tangible measure of the MMR required for promotions. Why would they do this? Probably because they are banking on people saying "oh wow I just have to get that many points, I should play more now!" Exactly. A better way to do it is to calculate the # of points you'd need now to hit that plateau if you only accrued bonus points (it's 12/day for Masters/GM, dunno for lower leagues). And compare. So for me, I'm at 840. I'd need 980 to hit 1400 at end of season (420 bonus points rest of season). So I'm still relatively far from hitting GM.
A ray of light in a dark cave!
And of course, how do you get more points? or get more points ahead?
Same as always, same as it's always been, and as it always will be: to get into diamond league or whatever the next league up is, you need to get stronger at sc2. Improve your play, and win more games, and you'll get more MMR and points and eventually promotions.
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On November 16 2011 04:08 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 03:56 KevinIX wrote:
I think they greatly overestimate the number of points you need to get promoted. I got promoted in 2v2s this season with far fewer points than they listed. This is how much you'd need (approx) at end of season to get promoted next season. If you're high enough you can get promoted mid-season, presumably with a much smaller # of points (since it's based on your Moving Average MMR, not your points - points is just a representation of your MMR and bonus pool).
Oh I see. That makes sense.
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This is an interesting and reasonable decision from them from a business standpoint, in my opinion. People are given a solid goal to work toward, math-lovers have some data to calculate games/wins (probably) needed for promotion, and hopefully it will decrease the amount of people complaining about not being promoted. It also makes it clear that simply being a good player is not enough, if you don't play a ton you won't get promoted. I know that I am more motivated now to play a bunch of games before the season is over. The only disappointing thing about this info release is that I have more than 700 points to go before I can be masters lol.
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On November 16 2011 02:16 carloselcoco wrote:I don;t know how to make a table
It was interesting regardless. Thanks for the effort.
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Ohh crap, 640 points more to go if I want to get out of diamond. I bet I will move up sooner if I can keep winning 60-70% of my games like I have been doing for the last few days.. But I can't :D
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The problem with this announcement is that a lot of people are going to suddenly get active and these figures will not be accurate come Dec. 13th because more people are playing more games.
Unless I'm really misunderstanding something.
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Hmm this is interesting yet a little confusing. At least it's something by Blizzard on the topic for once.
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On November 16 2011 04:56 SpaceYeti wrote:
The problem with this announcement is that a lot of people are going to suddenly get active and these figures will not be accurate come Dec. 13th because more people are playing more games.
Unless I'm really misunderstanding something.
Assuming that the number of people who suddenly become active are normally distributed in terms of MMR, then the figures will still be accurate come December.
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On November 16 2011 04:20 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 04:18 stokes17 wrote:
Um, aren't the divisions tiered before masters? Meaning 900 points in a tier1 diamond division may be equivalent to 1800 points in a tier 7 diamond division. Doesn't this mean the points valued listed are extremely general? Or am I missing something? I'd guess based on how they phrased it that these are worst-case numbers, assuming that one's in the division tier that's hardest to get promoted out of.
I guess so, But I believe the difference between tier one and tier 7 diamond is like a few hundred points... seems like it makes the 900 point value for masters promotion very vague
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Based on this, I am probably not leaving bronze for another 2 seasons.
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On November 16 2011 05:02 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 04:56 SpaceYeti wrote:
The problem with this announcement is that a lot of people are going to suddenly get active and these figures will not be accurate come Dec. 13th because more people are playing more games.
Unless I'm really misunderstanding something. Assuming that the number of people who suddenly become active are normally distributed in terms of MMR, then the figures will still be accurate come December.
This is the main thing i was wondering, thanks for clearing that up. So, can anyone confirm, the sudden influx of players/games played will not affect the target point goals to promote?
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On November 16 2011 04:56 SpaceYeti wrote:
The problem with this announcement is that a lot of people are going to suddenly get active and these figures will not be accurate come Dec. 13th because more people are playing more games.
Unless I'm really misunderstanding something.
The promotion boundaries are generally fixed, unless Blizzard tweaks them by hand. This is because MMRs generally bear a stable relationship to percentile in the population.
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On November 16 2011 05:13 fallore wrote:
This is the main thing i was wondering, thanks for clearing that up. So, can anyone confirm, the sudden influx of players/games played will not affect the target point goals to promote?
Shouldn't have anything to do with it. An influx of people may make an individual's MMR move up or down depending on how those players stand within the population, but it won't change the promotion boundaries because the relationship of MMR to percentile, like I say, is pretty stable.
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United States12235 Posts
Okay I'm still analyzing here, but let's think this out.
Season 4 began on Oct 25 and will lock on Dec 13. This means 630 bonus pool for Master, 630*0.58=365 bonus pool for lower leagues over that period. If you deduct the max bonus pool for a particular league, you're left with roughly the amount of adjusted points that will equate to a promotion. This presumably factors in the confidence buffer as well, and constitutes (mostly) the max adjusted points required to go from the bottom of one league to the bottom of the next league. That is, this chart is not counting division tiers.
I wonder if it's possible, given that we know how many division tiers are in each league, to determine rough estimates of what the point offsets per division tier are? For example, we know Diamond has 7 tiers since we've proven it before, and the point requirement they've provided is 900. 900 - 365 = 535 adjusted points, 535 / 7 = ~76 per tier, correct for the confidence barrier, and the 76 reported value appears to be pretty close to the previously-established 63 value. This could mean that the confidence barrier is around 76 / 63 = 1.20x, which would mean that your MMR's moving average has to be 20% higher than the breakpoint in order to get promoted. We still need to look into this more to be sure.
Also worth noting in this chart is what we've been saying for a while: Blizzard has the ability to adjust the MMR breakpoints per league and per region independently until they get closer to the expected distribution. That's why the requirements aren't uniform per game type and per region.
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On November 16 2011 05:07 stokes17 wrote:
I guess so, But I believe the difference between tier one and tier 7 diamond is like a few hundred points... seems like it makes the 900 point value for masters promotion very vague
If the numbers are worst-case numbers, then you may be able to do a lot worse than 900 and still get promoted.
It's also possible that the number of division tiers per league has varied from season to season. I'm not sure we'd have any way to know this.
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On November 16 2011 05:02 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 04:56 SpaceYeti wrote:
The problem with this announcement is that a lot of people are going to suddenly get active and these figures will not be accurate come Dec. 13th because more people are playing more games.
Unless I'm really misunderstanding something. Assuming that the number of people who suddenly become active are normally distributed in terms of MMR, then the figures will still be accurate come December.
I feel like that is a big assumption tho. :/ I'm guessing the the number of people who care seriously about the league and rankings differs greatly with MMR.
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On November 16 2011 05:17 Excalibur_Z wrote:
For example, we know Diamond has 7 tiers since we've proven it before
Is there any particular reason to believe that this hasn't changed since it was deduced first season? I mean, if they were to have added or subtracted tiers since then, or even gotten rid of division tiers entirely, would we have noticed?
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On November 16 2011 05:21 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:17 Excalibur_Z wrote:
For example, we know Diamond has 7 tiers since we've proven it before Is there any particular reason to believe that this hasn't changed since it was deduced first season? I mean, if they were to have added or subtracted tiers since then, or even gotten rid of division tiers entirely, would we have noticed? This is a good point. We know they've changed a lot of things about leagues since Season 1, but what things have they changed behind the scenes that we don't know about?
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On November 16 2011 05:18 SpaceYeti wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:02 Piledriver wrote:
Assuming that the number of people who suddenly become active are normally distributed in terms of MMR, then the figures will still be accurate come December.
I feel like that is a big assumption tho. :/ I'm guessing the the number of people who care seriously about the league and rankings differs greatly with MMR.
If there were a huge influx of people in a certain MMR range, that influx would compress the MMRs of certain ranges of the population and spread out the MMR range among the people who came in. You'd still end up with a similar (probably not perfectly identical) relationship between MMR and percentile.
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wow this is amazing haha xD
Does this have any effect on the comprehensive guide to the ladder? These are just rough numbers right? Basically like they said, the points you need to promote in the table just shows how well you have to be doing (winning more than losing, playing against better players, etc.) so they're just telling us that rough magic number?
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So I need around 800 points to get into Diamond.
This is a great way to quantify my goal. It makes it that much more real.
I think I'll probably get in before reaching 800 points, however.
Thanks very much for the post.
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United States12235 Posts
On November 16 2011 05:21 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:17 Excalibur_Z wrote:
For example, we know Diamond has 7 tiers since we've proven it before Is there any particular reason to believe that this hasn't changed since it was deduced first season? I mean, if they were to have added or subtracted tiers since then, or even gotten rid of division tiers entirely, would we have noticed?
According to SC2Ranks, there are still 7 open divisions per game mode in Diamond, so I don't think the number of tiers has changed or will change. However, it might be possible that the offsets will change depending on how far they adjust the breakpoints, considering the offsets have a direct connection with MMR.
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On November 16 2011 05:30 Excalibur_Z wrote:
According to SC2Ranks, there are still 7 open divisions per game mode in Diamond
That there is a damn clever inference, my friend.
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I'm a rank 1 Diamond player constantly beating masters so I better get promoted this season or next.
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Canada385 Posts
On November 16 2011 03:08 DoomsVille wrote:
You guys don't get it. You can't just get enough points by playing enough.
The point "requirements" are more than your bonus pool will accrue all season. This means that you absolutely must have a winrate > 50% in order to be promoted. What that means is your MMR is climbing.
They still use MMR as an indicator of promotions (which is why they say these are approximates and not exact numbers). They are just estimating what number of points will get your MMR high enough.
On the other hand, if you win 30 games in a row you'll probably be promoted regardless of your point total (because your MMR will have climbed enough).
Basically they are just using ladder points to approximate when your MMR will have reached high enough.
This is my interpretation of this as well.
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Finally we get some specific information about that topic.
in the beginning it was: Win and you get promoted
Now it is: Reach XXX Points and the chances of promotion are really big. huurayy! =)
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Wait I'm confused... ;\ I'm playing masters in 2v2 about 50% of the time and Im over 500 points short of the promo to masters. And I just got promoted to masters 4v4 and had like 600 points short.
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Funny part of all this is: if the players start playing more to strive for these numbers they just posted, then there's likely going to be some influence in said numbers (as in, average MMR threshold for promotion changes), and by releasing their estimates they'll influence results in an unforeseeable way, thus making the estimates fall short.
Maybe...
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On November 16 2011 06:00 SupLilSon wrote:
Wait I'm confused... ;\ I'm playing masters in 2v2 about 50% of the time and Im over 500 points short of the promo to masters. And I just got promoted to masters 4v4 and had like 600 points short.
Don't be, the numbers they point are not a definitive measure, and more importantly, those are the points they estimate you would need by the end of the season to get promoted. But promotions can occur mid-season if you have good results.
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Man i see i need to play way more games then i do if i ever want to get to masters xD
Won over 50% of my matches against master players, but then again i only played around 20 games the whole season .
Good that the numbers are released, although this doesn't cover everything i guess.
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Well once I get off my skyrim addiction, that will make a nice goal for me for trying to get back on track to getting promoted to masters on my korean account :3 I was thinking they would give a bit more detail, like a rough estimate of say what % of your games should be vs the next higher league and what % of games vs those in your league and vs the higher up league you should be winning to know if you're on track or not.
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On November 16 2011 05:52 Coopa826 wrote:
Finally we get some specific information about that topic.
in the beginning it was: Win and you get promoted
Now it is: Reach XXX Points and the chances of promotion are really big. huurayy! =)
It is nice that they gave us a bit more information, but this is really just a different way of presenting the same thing we already knew. The point system, ignoring bonus points, is meant to map roughly to the MMR system; the points you're awarded for wins and losses are adjusted to cause a bias in the direction of a point total corresponding to your MMR. Since the MMR thresholds are hard coded, the approximate number of points the system will be nudging you toward if your MMR is at the threshold is effectively also hard coded. Add the number of bonus points awarded per season and voila, you have your goal for the season. Given that sc2ranks has promotion information, I'd bet we could even have deduced these numbers, at least for leagues (just Diamond, right?) for which we knew the tier offsets.
The only question I have is with regard to the tiers. Won't the point total corresponding to a given MMR will be different by as much as a couple hundred points depending on what tier you're in? I don't understand how the numbers can be made meaningful for all players in all tiers given that fact? And if they're not, Blizzard is going to unleash a shitstorm on itself when the system doesn't behave as advertised. I wish they'd just let us see our MMRs and tell us where the promotion thresholds are; all of these obfuscating layers of abstraction just annoy me.
On November 16 2011 05:17 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I wonder if it's possible, given that we know how many division tiers are in each league, to determine rough estimates of what the point offsets per division tier are? For example, we know Diamond has 7 tiers since we've proven it before, and the point requirement they've provided is 900. 900 - 365 = 535 adjusted points, 535 / 7 = ~76 per tier, correct for the confidence barrier, and the 76 reported value appears to be pretty close to the previously-established 63 value. This could mean that the confidence barrier is around 76 / 63 = 1.20x, which would mean that your MMR's moving average has to be 20% higher than the breakpoint in order to get promoted. We still need to look into this more to be sure..
If I understand how you're describing this, wouldn't that mean that the tier with the lowest point offset had to earn the largest number of points to achieve their promotion? I don't see how that would make sense; you'd effectively have to have a higher MMR to reach 535 points starting from a 0 offset than starting from 228. Have I completely misunderstood something?
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On November 16 2011 02:28 Elendoil wrote:
You guys are doing it wrong: The points Blizz is talking about is not the points that you are having (at least I think). Else their statement that you have to win over 50% of the time for a long period of time wouldn't make sense. If I play 1 game every day my bonuspool is more than enough to gain me a steady income of points if I keep a 50% winrate. So I guess they are talking about other points. Also it would be stupid to need more points to get from Bronze to Silver then from Silver to Gold.
you have it completely wrong, read blizzard's post. also you can't just idly use BP
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On November 16 2011 05:17 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Okay I'm still analyzing here, but let's think this out.
Season 4 began on Oct 25 and will lock on Dec 13. This means 630 bonus pool for Master, 630*0.58=365 bonus pool for lower leagues over that period. If you deduct the max bonus pool for a particular league, you're left with roughly the amount of adjusted points that will equate to a promotion. This presumably factors in the confidence buffer as well, and constitutes (mostly) the max adjusted points required to go from the bottom of one league to the bottom of the next league. That is, this chart is not counting division tiers.
I wonder if it's possible, given that we know how many division tiers are in each league, to determine rough estimates of what the point offsets per division tier are? For example, we know Diamond has 7 tiers since we've proven it before, and the point requirement they've provided is 900. 900 - 365 = 535 adjusted points, 535 / 7 = ~76 per tier, correct for the confidence barrier, and the 76 reported value appears to be pretty close to the previously-established 63 value. This could mean that the confidence barrier is around 76 / 63 = 1.20x, which would mean that your MMR's moving average has to be 20% higher than the breakpoint in order to get promoted. We still need to look into this more to be sure.
Also worth noting in this chart is what we've been saying for a while: Blizzard has the ability to adjust the MMR breakpoints per league and per region independently until they get closer to the expected distribution. That's why the requirements aren't uniform per game type and per region.
I'm not sure why you divided 535 by 7. The way I see it:
Diamond S-Rank: 0
Diamond A-Rank: +63
Diamond B-Rank: +126
Diamond C-Rank: +189
Diamond D-Rank: +252
Diamond E-Rank: +315
Diamond F-Rank: +378
By publishing that a Diamond player needs 535 adjusted points to be promoted to Master, Blizzard is probably referring to F tier Diamond players, since if they referred to a higher tier, then all the F players would overshoot 535 adjusted points and be asking themselves why they haven't been promoted yet. If anything, I would conclude from the new numbers that 535-378=157 adjusted points (this time taking tier into account) is how much a typical Diamond player needs to go above 0 in order to reach the point where he's likely to be promoted to Master.
Edit:
At first 157 adjusted points (taking into account bonus pool and division tier) struck me as a bit on the low side, but then I noticed something. It is known Master players are -150 points compared to Diamond S-Rank players at 0 points. 150 points is actually really close to 157. Interesting.
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I would not be surprised if these numbers were not correct and this was just a way to make people ladder more, I think it's a good iDea.
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On November 16 2011 02:56 KiF1rE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:51 Kodak wrote:On November 16 2011 02:45 KiF1rE wrote:
1400 is a joke for near grandmaster.... that means at 1600 or so i should have been promoted instead of sitting in master still... You do realize it's not talking about S3, right? s3 was the same 2 month length, so the values should still hold true... and if they truly mean near grandmaster because it works differently this stupid announcement from blizzard has actually 0 value to a competitive player asking the question, of how do i actually earn a league promotion.... besides crush GM's and still be stuck in masters? in season 3 i was getting paired with players like RSVP when they were in the top 16 range of GM. and im still masters why?
Probably because you were losing 80% of the time vs them? Get close to 50% vs top 50 gm players and you will be promoted as soon as new space is available.
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I feel like these numbers are totally overshooting, and that if you win that much to get near this many points, you'll be promoted before you hit the actual number.
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lol this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. why would blizz even take the time out of its life to make such a useless chart
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On November 16 2011 06:00 SupLilSon wrote:
Wait I'm confused... ;\ I'm playing masters in 2v2 about 50% of the time and Im over 500 points short of the promo to masters. And I just got promoted to masters 4v4 and had like 600 points short.
So that they can offer a number that's pretty reliably going to lead to a promotion, they have to overestimate. That number includes bonus points that have not yet been awarded and also is probably tuned for the hardest divisions to get a promotion out of.
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On November 16 2011 06:27 Animostas wrote:
I feel like these numbers are totally overshooting, and that if you win that much to get near this many points, you'll be promoted before you hit the actual number.
These are points to shoot for to have at the end of one season to get promoted early into the next, not how many points you need mid season to get promoted.
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On November 16 2011 06:15 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
Won't the point total corresponding to a given MMR will be different by as much as a couple hundred points depending on what tier you're in? I don't understand how the numbers can be made meaningful for all players in all tiers given that fact? And if they're not, Blizzard is going to unleash a shitstorm on itself when the system doesn't behave as advertised.
Sure it will vary by tier. Note that they didn't say "these are the numbers you need to be promoted," they said "if you hit these numbers you're very likely to be promoted." Those two statements are very different.
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Its not set in stone that you have to have these exact points to be promoted. If you still win a lot in your league you will surely be promoted the short route. At least that's what I hope..
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On November 16 2011 02:56 KiF1rE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:51 Kodak wrote:On November 16 2011 02:45 KiF1rE wrote:
1400 is a joke for near grandmaster.... that means at 1600 or so i should have been promoted instead of sitting in master still... You do realize it's not talking about S3, right? s3 was the same 2 month length, so the values should still hold true... and if they truly mean near grandmaster because it works differently this stupid announcement from blizzard has actually 0 value to a competitive player asking the question, of how do i actually earn a league promotion.... besides crush GM's and still be stuck in masters? in season 3 i was getting paired with players like RSVP when they were in the top 16 range of GM. and im still masters why?
It wouldn't hold true, there simply is no way, I was over 1700 points, and there were many up at 1900 if I recall at season end.
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On November 16 2011 02:51 Kodak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:45 KiF1rE wrote:
1400 is a joke for near grandmaster.... that means at 1600 or so i should have been promoted instead of sitting in master still... You do realize it's not talking about S3, right?
that is a good point... if the season lasted longer it would be higher. This is 2 month season. Season 3 was 3 month or so.
Season Four: 25 October 2011 - Present
Season Three: 26 July 2011 - 24 October 2011 (locked 10 October)
Season Two: 29 March 2011 - 26 July 2011 (locked 5 July)
Season One: 27 July 2010 - 29 March 2011 (locked 29 Mar)
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The top player in the Diamond league has 500 points. You need 900 to get a promotion. I'm half way there!
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I don't know if this sounds right. I was between 1400-1500 at the end of last season (EU) and I was very seldom hitting GM players.
Like... I can only think of one.
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On November 16 2011 06:50 MrBitter wrote:
I don't know if this sounds right. I was between 1400-1500 at the end of last season (EU) and I was very seldom hitting GM players.
Like... I can only think of one.
Different season = different ending point values....
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United States2302 Posts
On November 16 2011 06:50 MrBitter wrote:
I don't know if this sounds right. I was between 1400-1500 at the end of last season (EU) and I was very seldom hitting GM players.
Like... I can only think of one.
This table only applies to the new shorter seasons.
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*cracks knuckles*
Let's get down to it!
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On November 16 2011 06:52 FabledIntegral wrote:
Different season = different ending point values....
The season 3 vs. season 4 bonus point totals will be lower this season by at least a couple hundred points for master league.
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Wow, glad blizzard revealed this information
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Not really "revealing", as it's just their predictions; They did confirm however that points influence the MMR.
What about the league "division tiers", discovered months ago? Maybe they just dropped that idea altogether?
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On November 16 2011 07:57 Zephirdd wrote:
Not really "revealing", as it's just their predictions; They did confirm however that points influence the MMR.
What about the league "division tiers", discovered months ago? Maybe they just dropped that idea altogether?
Well not applicable for masters at least! :D No idea about the rest though... maybe that's the unmodified point values.
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So... if I have 800 points by the 13th of December, then I get into Diamond? Is that what they're saying?
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On November 16 2011 02:44 optical630 wrote:
who wouldda thought you had to PLAY GAMES to get promoted?
My thoguhts exactly. If you have to ask how to get promoted your doing it wrong. Glad they released this for those who didnt know you had to win.
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ugh 900 points to get to masters
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Is SG.supposed to be SEA?
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the bonus pool for silver-diamond is 1 point through 193 hours. It is nov 15 in NA so there is 28 days left at (24x28)/3.3 which is 203 or so points. lets just call it 200; So essentially all points for people under masters is 200 less. ie 1200 for bronze, 600 for s-p and 700 for diamond. Now take your current point total and minus that from the points left over. Divide that number by 10 to get an approximate amount of games you have to win more than lose.
Using myself as an example, 623 points + 200=823. 900-823=77/10=7.7 round up to 8. I have to win 8 more games than I lose to hit 900 points by Dec 13. I would like to make sure i am promoted so I will shoot for 18 more games than I lose. Because my current win rate is high and I am facing a lot of Masters players I expect to be promoted if I get my 900 points.
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I like this release by Blizzard because it gives all of us a goal to strive for to reach the next division. No longer is it simply win a lot of games, but a clear, defined goal.
That being said, I think these point values could be much more concise if there was no bonus pool. The bonus pool artificially inflates the number of points on the ladder, making Points deviate a lot from our MMR. Without a bonus pool, we could easily see if we are improving and by how much we are improving.
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On November 16 2011 08:41 ixi.genocide wrote:
the bonus pool for silver-diamond is 1 point through 193 hours. It is nov 15 in NA so there is 28 days left at (24x28)/3.3 which is 203 or so points. lets just call it 200; So essentially all points for people under masters is 200 less. ie 1200 for bronze, 600 for s-p and 700 for diamond. Now take your current point total and minus that from the points left over. Divide that number by 10 to get an approximate amount of games you have to win more than lose.
Using myself as an example, 623 points + 200=823. 900-823=77/10=7.7 round up to 8. I have to win 8 more games than I lose to hit 900 points by Dec 13. I would like to make sure i am promoted so I will shoot for 18 more games than I lose. Because my current win rate is high and I am facing a lot of Masters players I expect to be promoted if I get my 900 points.
That can't be right... i'm like 270 for diamond R4's, adding 200 would give me 470? That would mean someone at the top of their division would have to go +360 to get a promotion? That seems a little extreme, a 35+ game differential to get promoted....
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On November 16 2011 02:28 Elendoil wrote:
You guys are doing it wrong: The points Blizz is talking about is not the points that you are having (at least I think). Else their statement that you have to win over 50% of the time for a long period of time wouldn't make sense. If I play 1 game every day my bonuspool is more than enough to gain me a steady income of points if I keep a 50% winrate. So I guess they are talking about other points. Also it would be stupid to need more points to get from Bronze to Silver then from Silver to Gold.
Actually, you are doing it wrong. As leagues are now a limited and decided (beforehand) amount of time, IE a decided amount of bonuspool points being given, they can calculate what points is equal to promotion and demotion. Thus it is the points that shows on your profile that they are mentioning, but it's the points you have after using up all your bonus pool at the end of a season.
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On November 16 2011 07:57 Zephirdd wrote:
Not really "revealing", as it's just their predictions; They did confirm however that points influence the MMR.
What about the league "division tiers", discovered months ago? Maybe they just dropped that idea altogether?
They have total control over the boundaries and how they map to points, so while those numbers aren't perfect (because individual players' recent game histories will vary somewhat), they're better than a "prediction."
As for division tiers, we discussed that a couple pages ago. There's some good info there that I won't repeat here.
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So I'm already 1/9th of the way to master league on my account where I have 117 points and 4 wins with 6 games played this season (I'm playing on my offracing account more right now)? This seems kinda sketchy. I guess I'll just keep 7pooling in ZvP and keep them points climbing.
All this basically says is if you play regularly and spend your bonus pool you will be promoted. In reality that means you are playing enough that you might actually improve. At least it gives somewhat of a goal I guess.
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On November 16 2011 08:45 envisioN . wrote:
That being said, I think these point values could be much more concise if there was no bonus pool. The bonus pool artificially inflates the number of points on the ladder, making Points deviate a lot from our MMR. Without a bonus pool, we could easily see if we are improving and by how much we are improving.
The bonus pool serves one purpose only, which is to ensure that maintaining one's ladder spot requires continued play.
You could argue that continued play shouldn't be necessary to hold one's spot, but a counter-argument is that the MMRs get stale over time without games played, both because the overall population's skill increases with more practice, and because the player who's not playing falls out of practice.
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On November 16 2011 02:38 Torte de Lini wrote:
So, in translation and less detail: just win lol
You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar :D Haha srsly tho truth, but I did get promoted to 2v2 masters once on a loss. Very rare tho from what I've seen and it may have been that my points allowed it.
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I like this because it gives me an objective, tangible, goal, something I can reach for.
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On November 16 2011 02:28 FairForever wrote:I'm at 843 points... so at an average of 12 points per day from bonus pool (starting today till Dec 19), that is 35 days * 12 points = 420 points. Damn, only 1263... I'm still short about 140 points to GM So really anyone who is at 980 points or higher right now in NA Masters is playing at a GM level (assuming no bonus pool). We should have a table for when to expect to get demoted.
It says near GM. Pretty sure it was 1700~ last season, and that probably wouldn't have guaranteed you a spot. 1400 was around top 1,000 NA masters (not including GM itself). You can do the math from that point, unless the average rating takes a wild skew this season.
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Wow, so you win more than you lose and you get promoted? Man I NEVER would have guessed... durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr lol
I guess the points estimation is somewhat useful... But blah. Just play, get better, and it will all come together naturally.
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Isn't this number going to change constantly? Due to bonus pool?
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On November 16 2011 09:29 tsuxiit wrote:
Isn't this number going to change constantly? Due to bonus pool?
The estimate includes an end-of-season bonus pool based on the season ending December 19th. If that date changes, the number will change.
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900 points to get to master :S that will be hard. But still thanks for the information Blizzard, I can now stop dreaming.
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Finally :O thank you bliz YOU TEASE!
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so...i'm at about 234 points and need 900..without BP thats about 670 points...which is about 60ish games i need to win..without losing
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Lowliest of masters to the tip top is such a big skill gap. Sigh, back to le grind.
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On November 16 2011 08:46 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 08:41 ixi.genocide wrote:
the bonus pool for silver-diamond is 1 point through 193 hours. It is nov 15 in NA so there is 28 days left at (24x28)/3.3 which is 203 or so points. lets just call it 200; So essentially all points for people under masters is 200 less. ie 1200 for bronze, 600 for s-p and 700 for diamond. Now take your current point total and minus that from the points left over. Divide that number by 10 to get an approximate amount of games you have to win more than lose.
Using myself as an example, 623 points + 200=823. 900-823=77/10=7.7 round up to 8. I have to win 8 more games than I lose to hit 900 points by Dec 13. I would like to make sure i am promoted so I will shoot for 18 more games than I lose. Because my current win rate is high and I am facing a lot of Masters players I expect to be promoted if I get my 900 points. That can't be right... i'm like 270 for diamond R4's, adding 200 would give me 470? That would mean someone at the top of their division would have to go +360 to get a promotion? That seems a little extreme, a 35+ game differential to get promoted....
oct 25-dec 13 is 49 days x 24 hours= 365 bonus points for the entire season. Oct 25-Nov 15th is (21x24x60)/193=156 points. You have 270 points which means that you have approximately +11 wins (this isn't approximate and tbh can't be relied on because the point differences between each win and loss). How is your win rate btw? The catch to this is that if you keep on winning eventually it will match you with people that give you 24 points (they are favored) per win.
Edit: didn't do the full math above.
49*24=1176*60=70560/193=365
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This actually makes me a ton more motivated to ladder to try to get masters, in fact it makes it even look a bit easy o.O (that is, if I have the time...)
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9w/190pts and how far is this season along?
Bonus pool, marvelous thing. Getting promoted so much work lol but 900 pts seems more than doable .-. what if you have a 60% wr you'll get promoted in no time?
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On November 16 2011 02:45 KiF1rE wrote:
1400 is a joke for near grandmaster.... that means at 1600 or so i should have been promoted instead of sitting in master still...
1600 is what you had Last Season in masters probably more longer Season = More Bonus Pool Points. So that's why the Number for GM is Lower For these Newer Seasons.
I looked at SC2 Ranks and the highest Ranked Masters are like 1000-1100 so your Points are impossible in Masters this Season.
That was your points Last Season probably.
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Not sure if this is said previously but I think this is solid proof that in a new season, the ladder stickiness is reduced - i.e. the placement match is more aggressive in placing someone in a league.
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I mean its interesting.. but realistically everyone will be promoted before they hit that #. And that # also fluctuates daily I am guessing...
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900 for diamond to masters seems a little weird.. i have friends in the 300s who are playing masters already with no more bonus pool
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On November 16 2011 13:32 luck_star21 wrote:
900 for diamond to masters seems a little weird.. i have friends in the 300s who are playing masters already with no more bonus pool
that's not including division tiers and bonus pool over the next few weeks
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On November 16 2011 13:32 luck_star21 wrote:
900 for diamond to masters seems a little weird.. i have friends in the 300s who are playing masters already with no more bonus pool
That's 900 by the end of the season. It's also an approximate estimate of what it takes to make Masters. Win streaks can speed up the process.
For an extreme example. If you're in Diamond and you win 20 straight games to start the season, you'll only have about 300 points, but your MMR will spike such that the system is likely to promote you. Also note that your 300 points after 20 games is much much higher than the average, which is probably in the 150-200 range after 20 games in the upper 3rd of diamond.
If you're 60-40 after 3 days of grinding ladder, you'll still have about 300 points, but your MMR won't spike because the losses will drop your MMR. Your 60-40 would be the equivalent of going 12-8 in your first 20 games to start the season. Heck, 60-40 just a few days in might even have you on the border between diamond and masters... I'm just laying out arbitrary examples to illustrate a point.
If near the end of the season you have a record of 300-200. You would have about 1000-1300 points, and very likely to get promoted.
That's a 60% win rate, and I believe the system will promote on gaps as small as 55% at 275-225 you could even be battling for a spot in masters.
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On November 16 2011 12:57 XRaDiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:45 KiF1rE wrote:
1400 is a joke for near grandmaster.... that means at 1600 or so i should have been promoted instead of sitting in master still... 1600 is what you had Last Season in masters probably more longer Season = More Bonus Pool Points. So that's why the Number for GM is Lower For these Newer Seasons. I looked at SC2 Ranks and the highest Ranked Masters are like 1000-1100 so your Points are impossible in Masters this Season. That was your points Last Season probably.
Yup, KiF1rE you would have needed about 1850 points to promote to GM, since 1400 + (4weeks * 90points) = 1760
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On November 16 2011 13:56 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 13:32 luck_star21 wrote:
900 for diamond to masters seems a little weird.. i have friends in the 300s who are playing masters already with no more bonus pool That's 900 by the end of the season. It's also an approximate estimate of what it takes to make Masters. Win streaks can speed up the process. For an extreme example. If you're in Diamond and you win 20 straight games to start the season, you'll only have about 300 points, but your MMR will spike such that the system is likely to promote you. Also note that your 300 points after 20 games is much much higher than the average, which is probably in the 150-200 range after 20 games in the upper 3rd of diamond. If you're 60-40 after 3 days of grinding ladder, you'll still have about 300 points, but your MMR won't spike because the losses will drop your MMR. Your 60-40 would be the equivalent of going 12-8 in your first 20 games to start the season. Heck, 60-40 just a few days in might even have you on the border between diamond and masters... I'm just laying out arbitrary examples to illustrate a point. If near the end of the season you have a record of 300-200. You would have about 1000-1300 points, and very likely to get promoted. That's a 60% win rate, and I believe the system will promote on gaps as small as 55% at 275-225 you could even be battling for a spot in masters.
I started the season with my alt account at the bottome of diamond and I have just about a 65% win ratio and I am now playing high diamond and 300 point masters players consistently.
There is quite a it of info to glean from this post and excaliur is on the right path. Hopefully before too long we will know exactly how the MMR and ladder works.
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On November 16 2011 14:54 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 13:56 Nemireck wrote:On November 16 2011 13:32 luck_star21 wrote:
900 for diamond to masters seems a little weird.. i have friends in the 300s who are playing masters already with no more bonus pool That's 900 by the end of the season. It's also an approximate estimate of what it takes to make Masters. Win streaks can speed up the process. For an extreme example. If you're in Diamond and you win 20 straight games to start the season, you'll only have about 300 points, but your MMR will spike such that the system is likely to promote you. Also note that your 300 points after 20 games is much much higher than the average, which is probably in the 150-200 range after 20 games in the upper 3rd of diamond. If you're 60-40 after 3 days of grinding ladder, you'll still have about 300 points, but your MMR won't spike because the losses will drop your MMR. Your 60-40 would be the equivalent of going 12-8 in your first 20 games to start the season. Heck, 60-40 just a few days in might even have you on the border between diamond and masters... I'm just laying out arbitrary examples to illustrate a point. If near the end of the season you have a record of 300-200. You would have about 1000-1300 points, and very likely to get promoted. That's a 60% win rate, and I believe the system will promote on gaps as small as 55% at 275-225 you could even be battling for a spot in masters. I started the season with my alt account at the bottome of diamond and I have just about a 65% win ratio and I am now playing high diamond and 300 point masters players consistently. There is quite a it of info to glean from this post and excaliur is on the right path. Hopefully before too long we will know exactly how the MMR and ladder works.
I think we've already figured it all out o.o have you checked out the comprehensive guide to the ladder?
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On November 16 2011 14:54 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 13:56 Nemireck wrote:On November 16 2011 13:32 luck_star21 wrote:
900 for diamond to masters seems a little weird.. i have friends in the 300s who are playing masters already with no more bonus pool That's 900 by the end of the season. It's also an approximate estimate of what it takes to make Masters. Win streaks can speed up the process. For an extreme example. If you're in Diamond and you win 20 straight games to start the season, you'll only have about 300 points, but your MMR will spike such that the system is likely to promote you. Also note that your 300 points after 20 games is much much higher than the average, which is probably in the 150-200 range after 20 games in the upper 3rd of diamond. If you're 60-40 after 3 days of grinding ladder, you'll still have about 300 points, but your MMR won't spike because the losses will drop your MMR. Your 60-40 would be the equivalent of going 12-8 in your first 20 games to start the season. Heck, 60-40 just a few days in might even have you on the border between diamond and masters... I'm just laying out arbitrary examples to illustrate a point. If near the end of the season you have a record of 300-200. You would have about 1000-1300 points, and very likely to get promoted. That's a 60% win rate, and I believe the system will promote on gaps as small as 55% at 275-225 you could even be battling for a spot in masters. I started the season with my alt account at the bottome of diamond and I have just about a 65% win ratio and I am now playing high diamond and 300 point masters players consistently. There is quite a it of info to glean from this post and excaliur is on the right path. Hopefully before too long we will know exactly how the MMR and ladder works.
Ya I think you're backing up my thoughts. At a 65% win rate (I'm interested in the win/loss count if you can dig that up) you're bordering on Masters already. If you had won 20 games in a row to start the season, you might already be in Masters.
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On November 16 2011 15:21 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 14:54 ixi.genocide wrote:On November 16 2011 13:56 Nemireck wrote:On November 16 2011 13:32 luck_star21 wrote:
900 for diamond to masters seems a little weird.. i have friends in the 300s who are playing masters already with no more bonus pool That's 900 by the end of the season. It's also an approximate estimate of what it takes to make Masters. Win streaks can speed up the process. For an extreme example. If you're in Diamond and you win 20 straight games to start the season, you'll only have about 300 points, but your MMR will spike such that the system is likely to promote you. Also note that your 300 points after 20 games is much much higher than the average, which is probably in the 150-200 range after 20 games in the upper 3rd of diamond. If you're 60-40 after 3 days of grinding ladder, you'll still have about 300 points, but your MMR won't spike because the losses will drop your MMR. Your 60-40 would be the equivalent of going 12-8 in your first 20 games to start the season. Heck, 60-40 just a few days in might even have you on the border between diamond and masters... I'm just laying out arbitrary examples to illustrate a point. If near the end of the season you have a record of 300-200. You would have about 1000-1300 points, and very likely to get promoted. That's a 60% win rate, and I believe the system will promote on gaps as small as 55% at 275-225 you could even be battling for a spot in masters. I started the season with my alt account at the bottome of diamond and I have just about a 65% win ratio and I am now playing high diamond and 300 point masters players consistently. There is quite a it of info to glean from this post and excaliur is on the right path. Hopefully before too long we will know exactly how the MMR and ladder works. Ya I think you're backing up my thoughts. At a 65% win rate (I'm interested in the win/loss count if you can dig that up) you're bordering on Masters already. If you had won 20 games in a row to start the season, you might already be in Masters.
I am backing up what you are saying. I have won 68 out of the last 100 games. I didn't win 20 straight but my first 20 games were like 14-6 or something like that.
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So, can someone please verify my math?
I am plat 1v1. I have 312 points this season. Seems as though my goal is 800.
Now, if I have to factor in Bonus Pool, I'm going to use Excal's number = 365.
So I need to earn=(Goal)-(BP accrued till end of season)-(Points accrued so far.)
(800)-(365)-(312)= 123! Yay, that's not that bad!
However, if the chart corrects for Bonus Pool accrued, it's just (800)-(365)= 435... oh hell.
Help please?
EDIT: I think we all realize you just have to get better to get promoted, regardless of having a clear number to strive for or not. We're not idiots. I just like having a goal that is very tangible. These numbers have sort of assuaged my fears of being stuck in Platinum forever.
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Thanks for the info !
I just feel like having quite the level to be in silver in 1v1 for at least 2 seasons (I'm already in other leagues), though I still have to stay in bronze. I began to write down my results cos I really felt like having much more wins that losses. And indeed I have exactly 14 wins v 10 losses for the beginning of season 4. And I think it was not so different last season. wtf !?
I think points also depends on how many bonus points (earned when u don't play) you have remaining. You need to play every day not too much (or vary between 1v1 2v2 4v4 etc...) if you want to make the most of these points.
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On November 16 2011 03:02 eleaf wrote:
I want to give some further discussion about this new revealed promotion system.
It's not a new system.
It's just the average amount of points people should have when their MMR hits the cutoff point that only Blizzard knows about.
Let's say the MMR cutoff to go from plat to diamond is 500 MMR. Blizzard has data that shows what the average point score is for people with 500+ MMR, then adjust it for season length and bonus pool, and give you a rough number. That's why they're different point scores in different regions.
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At the end of the day, it does not matter. Think about how to improve your mechanics, decision making , opening optimizing or strategic thinking and not necessarily play to win, but to get better. As an eventual result you will advance up the ladder, and imo faster and higher than if you only play to win.
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Going to be like 150 points short of GM if I maintain a 50% winrate, ugh
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Damn, I still need more than 500 points to make it into masters. Let's see, I guess you get around 5 points per game with 50% winrate ? 100 games in 3 weeks. Should be doable if I take vacation 
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Isn't 'how to earn a league promotion' just to be better than everyone in your league?
Not to poopoo on the OP or anything but you can't achieve those points unless you have the skill to anyway, hence making it irrelevant whether or not you know how many points you need.
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On November 16 2011 02:44 optical630 wrote:
who wouldda thought you had to PLAY GAMES to get promoted?
Yeah what happend to the good old days when you won your placements and played a few games of 3rax all in and could sit on diamond for ages?
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On November 16 2011 17:59 Canas wrote:
Going to be like 150 points short of GM if I maintain a 50% winrate, ugh
On November 16 2011 19:12 BGrael wrote:Damn, I still need more than 500 points to make it into masters. Let's see, I guess you get around 5 points per game with 50% winrate ? 100 games in 3 weeks. Should be doable if I take vacation
If you've got a 50% win rate then you won't get promoted because you're already at the level you should be at. The whole point of the way Blizzard has calculated this is to put a rough figure on how many points you will have if you tend towards an increasing MMR. The points themselves don't really matter except as an indication that you're winning more than you lose and thus your MMR is increasing.
The key point is that in order to get these kind of points you need to be winning more than you lose. To quote that article:
Q: How do I get my ladder points that high?
A: The only way to gain these points is to win more than you lose for a sustained period. For example, if you look at your match history and have won at least 12 of your last 20 games, you’re on the right track. Keep it up!
Therefore with a 50% win rate you will not get this level of points, hence your MMR won't increase and you won't get promoted.
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I'm glad that they finally released how to advance in ladders rather then making us all guess. Looks like I have a lot of work to do before I hit diamond.
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Promotions based on point totals seems silly at best, no idea why the hidden MMR wouldn't be the only factor instead. Getting to X ladder points is a lot more about grinding then actual skill.
Do you need to win more then you lose sure, but based on that post having 900 points in a diamond league to go to masters would seem to have more emphasis then if someone is at 500 points with a higher win % but not that 900 point mark. I'm sure you can / do get promoted if you win some silly % of your games...but for everyone else having an arbitrary point mark seems like a bad system.
EX. Player A and Player B...Both players are trying to go from diamond to masters this season. Player A and B are both college students. If player A plays player B player A wins 65% of the time.
Player A works and goes to school regularly and normally only has enough time to play to get around 650 points per season. Despite this fact player A wins about 58% of their ladder games games.
Player B doesn't work, and skips classes and homework a lot. Player B plays a ton and gets to around 950 points this season. Player B however only wins about 52% of their ladder games.
Seasons end comes and Player B gets promoted and Player A does not....now tell me how that is good :/
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Damn that number is high, Blizzard took a pretty safe bet there. I like that they did this, promotion is still based around MMR, and people with that number of points are without doubt close to that MMR.
I got 362 points and low bonus pool (+-30), GM would be 1340 points for EU. Conclusion, I will never reach GM .
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On November 17 2011 00:03 Nerski wrote:
Promotions based on point totals seems silly at best, no idea why the hidden MMR wouldn't be the only factor instead. Getting to X ladder points is a lot more about grinding then actual skill.
It is the only factor. This is not a change in how promotions work, it's simply a guide to what your points will generally be at once your MMR gets high enough for a promotion.
I repeat, nothing has changed.
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Why are people having such an issue understanding this?
Since the bonus points accrue at a fixed rate why is it hard to understand how Blizzard can come up with the point total for league promotion?
There is a relation between MMR & Ladder Points minus Bonus Points.
You gain points or lose points based on winning and losing… your MMR also either goes up or down based on winning and losing…
So parse out the bonus points and account for “favored” points.. and you can come to your point relation to MMR.
I’d assume they’re giving this target for the end of the season because I’d bet the “stabilizing” factor gets reset at the end of a season.
Meaning if you go on a 25 game winning streak before the season ends and don’t get promoted it’s because it hasn’t stabilized… but if a new season starts you will get placed in the appropriate rank based on your MMR because the history starts over… that’s a pure guess on my part though
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On November 17 2011 00:03 Nerski wrote:
Promotions based on point totals seems silly at best, no idea why the hidden MMR wouldn't be the only factor instead. Getting to X ladder points is a lot more about grinding then actual skill.
Do you need to win more then you lose sure, but based on that post having 900 points in a diamond league to go to masters would seem to have more emphasis then if someone is at 500 points with a higher win % but not that 900 point mark. I'm sure you can / do get promoted if you win some silly % of your games...but for everyone else having an arbitrary point mark seems like a bad system.
EX. Player A and Player B...Both players are trying to go from diamond to masters this season. Player A and B are both college students. If player A plays player B player A wins 65% of the time.
Player A works and goes to school regularly and normally only has enough time to play to get around 650 points per season. Despite this fact player A wins about 58% of their ladder games games.
Player B doesn't work, and skips classes and homework a lot. Player B plays a ton and gets to around 950 points this season. Player B however only wins about 52% of their ladder games.
Seasons end comes and Player B gets promoted and Player A does not....now tell me how that is good :/
True. but I prefer this method. I mean, look at last season's GMs, where many of them only had 10 games from maintaining the previous season's MMR. Or, some of these players only had 20 games with 17-3 records. Given that GM is about grinding games and not having your bonus pool go over a certain amount, doesn't it make sense to set this expectation right at league promotion?
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On November 17 2011 00:03 Nerski wrote:
Promotions based on point totals seems silly at best, no idea why the hidden MMR wouldn't be the only factor instead. Getting to X ladder points is a lot more about grinding then actual skill.
Do you need to win more then you lose sure, but based on that post having 900 points in a diamond league to go to masters would seem to have more emphasis then if someone is at 500 points with a higher win % but not that 900 point mark. I'm sure you can / do get promoted if you win some silly % of your games...but for everyone else having an arbitrary point mark seems like a bad system.
EX. Player A and Player B...Both players are trying to go from diamond to masters this season. Player A and B are both college students. If player A plays player B player A wins 65% of the time.
Player A works and goes to school regularly and normally only has enough time to play to get around 650 points per season. Despite this fact player A wins about 58% of their ladder games games.
Player B doesn't work, and skips classes and homework a lot. Player B plays a ton and gets to around 950 points this season. Player B however only wins about 52% of their ladder games.
Seasons end comes and Player B gets promoted and Player A does not....now tell me how that is good :/
Yeah that sucks =/. Especially since I'm Player A .. xD
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United States12235 Posts
On November 17 2011 00:03 Nerski wrote:
Promotions based on point totals seems silly at best, no idea why the hidden MMR wouldn't be the only factor instead. Getting to X ladder points is a lot more about grinding then actual skill.
Do you need to win more then you lose sure, but based on that post having 900 points in a diamond league to go to masters would seem to have more emphasis then if someone is at 500 points with a higher win % but not that 900 point mark. I'm sure you can / do get promoted if you win some silly % of your games...but for everyone else having an arbitrary point mark seems like a bad system.
EX. Player A and Player B...Both players are trying to go from diamond to masters this season. Player A and B are both college students. If player A plays player B player A wins 65% of the time.
Player A works and goes to school regularly and normally only has enough time to play to get around 650 points per season. Despite this fact player A wins about 58% of their ladder games games.
Player B doesn't work, and skips classes and homework a lot. Player B plays a ton and gets to around 950 points this season. Player B however only wins about 52% of their ladder games.
Seasons end comes and Player B gets promoted and Player A does not....now tell me how that is good :/
You're misinterpreting or not reading thoroughly enough. These correspond to maximum values -- that is, the point (but also MMR) difference between the lowest division tier of one league and the lowest division tier of the next-highest league.
- If you're in a league with 3 tiers and you happen to be in the highest tier, you will only need to earn 1/3 of the necessary points listed at most.
- If your win ratio is very high, then your MMR is rising faster than your points and a promotion will happen more quickly.
- These values include bonus pool over the entire season, you need to take into account the amount of adjusted points which is what really matters.
Skill dictates promotion eligibility and it always has. Nothing changed internally as a result of these tables being published.
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This will be helpful for the people on the forums wondering why they're top of their Bronze division for ages and haven't gone to silver. The requires points/MMR for Bronze->Silver is just really really high compared to the other league gaps.
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On November 17 2011 00:03 Nerski wrote:
Promotions based on point totals seems silly at best, no idea why the hidden MMR wouldn't be the only factor instead. Getting to X ladder points is a lot more about grinding then actual skill.
Promotion is based on the hidden MMR only. What they've done is provided the end-of-season point totals that correspond to those MMRs for people in the lowest division tier who have used 100% of their bonus points.
The non-bonus-point part of a player's score tracks MMR, so it's possible for Blizzard to translate back and forth. In this table, they've done that.
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yay time to get promoted lol....
playing games is key. who woulda thought!
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On November 17 2011 02:21 Excalibur_Z wrote:
- If your win ratio is very high, then your MMR is rising faster than your points and a promotion will happen more quickly.
A little off-topic, but I found this comment interesting.
What I personally have noticed is that when I have the occasional several-game losing streak, after a while my opponents will be listed as "slightly favored." This suggests to me that my point score is dropping faster than my MMR. Wouldn't a winning streak result in points rising faster than MMR?
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At least got a goal now to hit on EU server. 700 points and counting to go, sadly never get much done this season but now got a goal :D.
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this is really good info, gives us something to aim for
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Calgary25980 Posts
On November 16 2011 19:42 ZiegFeld wrote:
Read my sig...
I don't know how you could think this is acceptable. Change your sig immediately.
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Was it always like this or did this change when Season length changed?
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On November 17 2011 04:27 lynx.oblige wrote:
Was it always like this or did this change when Season length changed?
It was always like this. Nothing at all has changed.
Obviously the point amounts were different when seasons were longer (more bonus pool).
Nothing has changed about promotions. Blizzard is simply giving you approximate ladder scores for promotion-ready MMR.
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I will admit that this now takes the veil off promotions which is kinda nice. I know there is already a thread around here that shows how to calculate what your hidden MMR is (or approximate it), so this sorta completes that picture.
Still makes you wonder how the hell you get to 800 points in a two month period unless you are literally playing every day and, of course, winning over 50% of your games to compensate for not having any bonus pool during that time.
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On November 17 2011 04:33 DjSpectre wrote:
Still makes you wonder how the hell you get to 800 points in a two month period unless you are literally playing every day and, of course, winning over 50% of your games to compensate for not having any bonus pool during that time.
Remember that a top-tier Diamond player would have a few hundred fewer points to earn to get promoted than a bottom-tier Diamond player. These numbers are probably a worst-case scenario (because of course Blizzard doesn't want people showing up saying "OMG I GOT 1000 POINTS AND DIDN'T GET PROMOTED")
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United States12235 Posts
On November 17 2011 04:12 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 02:21 Excalibur_Z wrote:
- If your win ratio is very high, then your MMR is rising faster than your points and a promotion will happen more quickly. A little off-topic, but I found this comment interesting. What I personally have noticed is that when I have the occasional several-game losing streak, after a while my opponents will be listed as "slightly favored." This suggests to me that my point score is dropping faster than my MMR. Wouldn't a winning streak result in points rising faster than MMR?
I think that depending on the length of the streak and how fast uncertainty changes, changes in MMR happen faster or slower depending on how stable you've been in the past. For a brand new player with high uncertainty, MMR would certainly move much faster than points.
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now I have motivation to play ^^
Its good knowing what you toughly have to aim for....time to start the grinds before I go traveling ^^ ^^
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I know there are a lot of people here that say do not worry about what league you or your opponents are in, because it just you will just play people who are evenly matched. The problem with that statement for me is I know I can play better then people in my league, which is platinum, and when I do not face diamond player I get a little angry. That is just me knowing I am not playing at my regular skill level. It also forces me to want to be better, and if you just accept that you will just be playing people in X league because you are in X league, that is just selling yourself short. That is what I think when I am playing ladder.
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On November 17 2011 16:43 Kybuar wrote:
The problem with that statement for me is I know I can play better then people in my league, which is platinum, and when I do not face diamond player I get a little angry
If you want to improve, that's exactly the wrong way to think about it. Instead you should be asking: "If I'm so sure what I ought to be doing, why am I in platinum, and what are the diamond players doing that I'm not?"
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one year into the game Blizz finally deemed it fine to let people know a tiny bit more how the leagues work - considering that in warcraft 3 you saw exactly how far you are from promotion/demotion I remain underwhelmed, tbh
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I like this by Blizzard. I know leagues and promotions really shouldn't be my priority vs actually improving, but it gives me much more incentive to actually ladder. There's actually a tangible target to achieve now, instead of randomly guessing if I'm close or not based on who I win/lose against.
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yeh its nice to see that they do reward mass gaming and winning.
237 poiints now so 533 points to get back to Diamond and keep up the winning record!!!
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It's shocking how misinterpreted this has become. Nothing has changed in the promotion process. It's still all about MMR and who you are winning against and how much you're winning. The numbers are estimates just so people stop asking and probably to give people a clear goal.
If you have that 800 points or whatever it may be, odds are you're dominating your league so you're going to be moved up. That's pretty much all it means...
They just really explained the promotion process in a different way than talking about MMR which was like gibberish to some people.
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Today I just got promoted to Diamond after being 400 point plat, so as season have been going about 4 weeks and there is 4 weeks left I can see this chart being pretty accurate about promotions
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never understood why people were so confused about how promotion works. you are never going to have 2,000 points and be in diamond still, i would hope.
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This is plain useless... If you get this amount of points you'll be promoted anyways because it means that you have at least a 60% wlr... I can't see why people overhype this. Blizzard just told you the evidence: You have to win to get promoted. dur dur dur
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ofc its obvious that you need to win most of your games to get promoted, blizzard did just all the math so you get to know the moment where you are gona get promotion
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On November 17 2011 02:21 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 00:03 Nerski wrote:
Promotions based on point totals seems silly at best, no idea why the hidden MMR wouldn't be the only factor instead. Getting to X ladder points is a lot more about grinding then actual skill.
Do you need to win more then you lose sure, but based on that post having 900 points in a diamond league to go to masters would seem to have more emphasis then if someone is at 500 points with a higher win % but not that 900 point mark. I'm sure you can / do get promoted if you win some silly % of your games...but for everyone else having an arbitrary point mark seems like a bad system.
EX. Player A and Player B...Both players are trying to go from diamond to masters this season. Player A and B are both college students. If player A plays player B player A wins 65% of the time.
Player A works and goes to school regularly and normally only has enough time to play to get around 650 points per season. Despite this fact player A wins about 58% of their ladder games games.
Player B doesn't work, and skips classes and homework a lot. Player B plays a ton and gets to around 950 points this season. Player B however only wins about 52% of their ladder games.
Seasons end comes and Player B gets promoted and Player A does not....now tell me how that is good :/
You're misinterpreting or not reading thoroughly enough. These correspond to maximum values -- that is, the point (but also MMR) difference between the lowest division tier of one league and the lowest division tier of the next-highest league. - If you're in a league with 3 tiers and you happen to be in the highest tier, you will only need to earn 1/3 of the necessary points listed at most. - If your win ratio is very high, then your MMR is rising faster than your points and a promotion will happen more quickly. - These values include bonus pool over the entire season, you need to take into account the amount of adjusted points which is what really matters. Skill dictates promotion eligibility and it always has. Nothing changed internally as a result of these tables being published.
After taking the time to read through blizzards post it's apparent the points are only a relative guideline. So your right nothing has changed, I do think blizzard might be opening themselves up to a can of worms though if by seasons end there are players at or past point thresholds that don't get promoted and get upset because they just grind a lot and don't actually win a lot.
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On November 18 2011 03:36 Nerski wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 02:21 Excalibur_Z wrote:On November 17 2011 00:03 Nerski wrote:
Promotions based on point totals seems silly at best, no idea why the hidden MMR wouldn't be the only factor instead. Getting to X ladder points is a lot more about grinding then actual skill.
Do you need to win more then you lose sure, but based on that post having 900 points in a diamond league to go to masters would seem to have more emphasis then if someone is at 500 points with a higher win % but not that 900 point mark. I'm sure you can / do get promoted if you win some silly % of your games...but for everyone else having an arbitrary point mark seems like a bad system.
EX. Player A and Player B...Both players are trying to go from diamond to masters this season. Player A and B are both college students. If player A plays player B player A wins 65% of the time.
Player A works and goes to school regularly and normally only has enough time to play to get around 650 points per season. Despite this fact player A wins about 58% of their ladder games games.
Player B doesn't work, and skips classes and homework a lot. Player B plays a ton and gets to around 950 points this season. Player B however only wins about 52% of their ladder games.
Seasons end comes and Player B gets promoted and Player A does not....now tell me how that is good :/
You're misinterpreting or not reading thoroughly enough. These correspond to maximum values -- that is, the point (but also MMR) difference between the lowest division tier of one league and the lowest division tier of the next-highest league. - If you're in a league with 3 tiers and you happen to be in the highest tier, you will only need to earn 1/3 of the necessary points listed at most. - If your win ratio is very high, then your MMR is rising faster than your points and a promotion will happen more quickly. - These values include bonus pool over the entire season, you need to take into account the amount of adjusted points which is what really matters. Skill dictates promotion eligibility and it always has. Nothing changed internally as a result of these tables being published. After taking the time to read through blizzards post it's apparent the points are only a relative guideline. So your right nothing has changed, I do think blizzard might be opening themselves up to a can of worms though if by seasons end there are players at or past point thresholds that don't get promoted and get upset because they just grind a lot and don't actually win a lot.
Actually I dont think this will happen, for me example my promotion took suprising lot of wins, my last 25 games have been against Diamonds and I went 20-5 and just now got the promotion about on right spot what this grid showed
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WTF! So to get promoted one has to win more than they loose!!! Who would have thought?
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On November 18 2011 03:43 NadaSound wrote:
WTF! So to get promoted one has to win more than they loose!!! Who would have thought?
That's what Blizzard has been saying all along, but everyone's been saying "Waaaa I deserve a promotion, something's wrong!" This is a response to that.
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I think given the time frame remaining in the ladder season, you would probably need to win quite a few games to achieve that point count for promotion so it's purely an estimate.. Perhaps blizzard has overestimated the amount so the chances of you reaching the threshold and not being promoted is really low.
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On November 18 2011 05:09 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 03:43 NadaSound wrote:
WTF! So to get promoted one has to win more than they loose!!! Who would have thought?
That's what Blizzard has been saying all along, but everyone's been saying "Waaaa I deserve a promotion, something's wrong!" This is a response to that.
Their nerve, right?
Does anyone know if this changes as each season pass? I am pretty sure it does, since my points in the different seasons have moved a bit (to the lower side) throughout the seasons even though my winning percentage or number of victories haven´t changed too much.
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On November 18 2011 05:38 TiTanIum_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 05:09 Lysenko wrote:On November 18 2011 03:43 NadaSound wrote:
WTF! So to get promoted one has to win more than they loose!!! Who would have thought?
That's what Blizzard has been saying all along, but everyone's been saying "Waaaa I deserve a promotion, something's wrong!" This is a response to that. Their nerve, right? Does anyone know if this changes as each season pass? I am pretty sure it does, since my points in the different seasons have moved a bit (to the lower side) throughout the seasons even though my winning percentage or number of victories haven´t changed too much.
Yes, for 2 reaons:
1) Bonus points: they are useless actually, but they are there in the math, so every week that the season is delayed or just longer will increase the points necessary by 90 (for masters in 1x1). Adjusted points though would remain the same!
2) Blizzard does change the offsets slightly if they see that the desired 20/20/20/20/18/2 system isn't there for whatever reason, but it probably won't change drastically any time soon. (that's also the reason for different regions having different numbers).
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On November 18 2011 05:38 TiTanIum_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 05:09 Lysenko wrote:On November 18 2011 03:43 NadaSound wrote:
WTF! So to get promoted one has to win more than they loose!!! Who would have thought?
That's what Blizzard has been saying all along, but everyone's been saying "Waaaa I deserve a promotion, something's wrong!" This is a response to that. Their nerve, right? Does anyone know if this changes as each season pass? I am pretty sure it does, since my points in the different seasons have moved a bit (to the lower side) throughout the seasons even though my winning percentage or number of victories haven´t changed too much.
It probably has to do with the length of each season. Seasons in the past have been longer, especially the first one.
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On November 18 2011 03:42 Roynalf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 03:36 Nerski wrote:On November 17 2011 02:21 Excalibur_Z wrote:On November 17 2011 00:03 Nerski wrote:
Promotions based on point totals seems silly at best, no idea why the hidden MMR wouldn't be the only factor instead. Getting to X ladder points is a lot more about grinding then actual skill.
Do you need to win more then you lose sure, but based on that post having 900 points in a diamond league to go to masters would seem to have more emphasis then if someone is at 500 points with a higher win % but not that 900 point mark. I'm sure you can / do get promoted if you win some silly % of your games...but for everyone else having an arbitrary point mark seems like a bad system.
EX. Player A and Player B...Both players are trying to go from diamond to masters this season. Player A and B are both college students. If player A plays player B player A wins 65% of the time.
Player A works and goes to school regularly and normally only has enough time to play to get around 650 points per season. Despite this fact player A wins about 58% of their ladder games games.
Player B doesn't work, and skips classes and homework a lot. Player B plays a ton and gets to around 950 points this season. Player B however only wins about 52% of their ladder games.
Seasons end comes and Player B gets promoted and Player A does not....now tell me how that is good :/
You're misinterpreting or not reading thoroughly enough. These correspond to maximum values -- that is, the point (but also MMR) difference between the lowest division tier of one league and the lowest division tier of the next-highest league. - If you're in a league with 3 tiers and you happen to be in the highest tier, you will only need to earn 1/3 of the necessary points listed at most. - If your win ratio is very high, then your MMR is rising faster than your points and a promotion will happen more quickly. - These values include bonus pool over the entire season, you need to take into account the amount of adjusted points which is what really matters. Skill dictates promotion eligibility and it always has. Nothing changed internally as a result of these tables being published. After taking the time to read through blizzards post it's apparent the points are only a relative guideline. So your right nothing has changed, I do think blizzard might be opening themselves up to a can of worms though if by seasons end there are players at or past point thresholds that don't get promoted and get upset because they just grind a lot and don't actually win a lot. Actually I dont think this will happen, for me example my promotion took suprising lot of wins, my last 25 games have been against Diamonds and I went 20-5 and just now got the promotion about on right spot what this grid showed
Man there's some people in my division with 560 points. How many points did you have when you were promoted? The whole 900 as the chart indicates or was it less because the season isn't over (and hence the bonus pool has yet to be fully distributed)?
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Sounds false >.> Was 1600 Masters last season.= and no promotion. Would have rather not known about this then find out their system is just shit right now.
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On November 18 2011 06:15 zJayy962 wrote:
Sounds false >.> Was 1600 Masters last season.= and no promotion. Would have rather not known about this then find out their system is just shit right now.
Your brand of stupid is the reason I hate people.
They are simply giving whiners finite goals to quite them down. If you want to know how well their system actually works, and how well formatted it is to only promote someone when they are ready then you can check the link below.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195273
User was temp banned for this post.
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clearly last season was longer than this one.. so it's not unreasonable to think the point threshold would be different?
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On November 18 2011 05:42 SDream wrote:
1) Bonus points: they are useless actually, but they are there in the math, so every week that the season is delayed or just longer will increase the points necessary by 90 (for masters in 1x1). Adjusted points though would remain the same!
Bonus points serve a very useful purpose. MMRs get stale when players don't play a lot, for two reasons.
The first is that the rest of the population can increase in skill with continued practice while the player who doesn't play at best stays where they were, thus making their MMR inaccurately predict how well they'll do when they return.
The second is that inactivity often causes people to become rusty, which also makes the MMR inaccurately predict how they'll do when they next hit the "find game" button.
Bonus points ensure that players who aren't sufficiently active drop to the bottom of the division rankings rather than filling spots among the more active players that may not accurately reflect their current performance anyway, due to their MMR becoming stale, which would happen if only the "adjusted points" were used.
Edit: Remember that if everyone's absolute skill level at the game improve at the same place, such that their relative likelihood of beating each other remains the same, their MMRs wouldn't change.
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On November 18 2011 06:15 zJayy962 wrote:
Sounds false >.> Was 1600 Masters last season.= and no promotion. Would have rather not known about this then find out their system is just shit right now.
rofl are you kidding me? they explicitly state that this is not a complete guarantee. for a rare few this will not apply. read bro.
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This is the motivation I was looking for. An "almost" assured way to get promoted. This excites me I think will excite others to. Blizzard good job....didn't think I would be saying that but yeah...
Time to ladder and gain 800 ladder points then I can feel that I deserve to be promoted.
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It's nice that they show you a good way to do it and it give you a benchmark to strive for.
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To those who say my points from last season was this and this I did not get promoted:
S3 is 3 months. July 26 - October 24. In this case you'll get more points due to bonus pool.
S4 is 2 months. October 24 - December 20. Less overall points.
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isn't there an issue with this point approximation? I thought identitcal MMRs (and therefore promotions) could correspond to different points, due to specific league coefficients. Am I wrong?
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On November 18 2011 06:15 zJayy962 wrote:
Sounds false >.> Was 1600 Masters last season.= and no promotion. Would have rather not known about this then find out their system is just shit right now.
Earlier on in the thread it was worked out that you'd have needed 1760-1800 last season to be "almost" guarenteed a promotion as the season was longer so no, it does still work.
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This is stupid, if you had 900 points in diamond you'd be the #1 diamond player on the NA server right now! (trying to get promoted to ML on NA according to the chart.)
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Sweet, its nice to have a goal in terms of ladder points to get at the end of the season =). Time to double my ladder points and be a self proclaimed grandmaster.
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On December 03 2011 23:07 TRod wrote:
This is stupid, if you had 900 points in diamond you'd be the #1 diamond player on the NA server right now! (trying to get promoted to ML on NA according to the chart.)
Could this perhaps have something to do with most people reaching ~900 getting promoted to masters...?
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US toghest competition yea!
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Anyone have any word on if the date is changing or no? 8 more days might not be enough to get my 150 points..
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Hmm, 320 points to promotion. LETS GET GRINDING!
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On November 16 2011 02:44 optical630 wrote:
who wouldda thought you had to PLAY GAMES to get promoted?
i know right seriously who would thunk it u have to actually play more than 20 games in a season to get promoted its absolute luncacy u would have to put time and effort into a game to get good at it/promoted (sarcasm)...............................................................................................
User was temp banned for this post.
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necro on the lose... i wonder how these points have changed, or if they have changed at all
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The leap between Diamond to Master - 900 and Master to GM-level - 1400 seems far too big at the current time. Last season I ended up at 9 in my masters division and was at like 1080 points or so. I was in the top 10% of my division but only 180 out of the 500 points needed as a masters player to be "GM-level", despite top 8 masters playing GMs on a semi-frequent basis. I mean I wasn't overly high, but seemed to be nearing that mark, despite being not even halfway through the amount of points needed to be "near GM".
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Hopefully I get promoted either before the end of the season or at the start of the new one. I am an EU Protoss and my current stats from the last 30 or so games are:
33 Games - 21 Wins - 12 Losses
vs. Bronze - 1 Win - 1 Loss (50% winrate)
vs. Silver - 13 Wins - 1 Loss (92.86% winrate)
vs. Gold - 8 Wins - 9 Losses (47% winrate)
vs. Platinum - 0 Wins - 1 Loss (0% winrate)
I know you need to win more against higher ranked players to get promoted but that SC2Gears MMR Plugin says that I basically have the MMR of a gold player, which explains why I'm playing against gold players more. Although I'm not beating every gold player, as you can see I'm basically owning silver players. I'm on around 620 points and rank 3 in my division.
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Those last 100 points between Masters and GM is really fucking brutal .
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master to near GM is not 1400 anymore, it is way higher. the highest ranked masters players usually have 1600-1700 points mid season. I was at over 1400 points 2 weeks ago and now I am at 1400 again and I am not even top 100 masters. the data is outdated. the points needed to be promoted are way higher now at least from masters to GM.
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EPT
