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Therehave always been (since broodwar times) people who cheated one way or the other to get something. In A regular sociaty there is a standard punishment for that sort of acting.
However, in eSports it seems that Admins dont want to do something like that. Tthere are plenty of resons for that sort of actuation (diffrent legal systems, having a better control over a tournament, or even reasons that could be considered unfair).
When people say something is "untolerable", they should notice that a diffrent person in a diffrent culture might not think the same way (taking it to the extreme, the Aztecs made ritual sacrifices by taking out the heart of the victim).
The only way to make this work and clear, is to make a simple "licence agreement" that will state easy:
If you cheat, you will pay a MONETARY fine of a certain ammount depending on the offence.
im betteing there are less severe and invasive ways to do this as well, but without pointing any fingers now, i remmber many broodwar players who got caught cheating, got banned "permanently" only to be playing the next year again.
I am not saying that handling your friend a CODE A spot since you already have a code S is unforgivable, but im sure if he had to strech $200 as a fine for match fixing something like this, he would:
A) Think it twice
B) Not be so critisized.
Well at least thats what i think.
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John called it a disservice to the fans to let something like this happen, which I agree on, but it's a further disservice to the fans to not let them play =/ As a fan of Coca, the thing I'm most upset about through all this is that I won't be able to see him in tournaments for awhile.
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MURICA15980 Posts
On November 15 2011 17:25 Skytalker wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 17:23 Not_That wrote:
I am very sad to read about this.
Personally I blame Byun more than Coca. Byun should've known better than to ask for this. Coca, while also in the wrong, I can understand him a bit more. He's young, Byun is his friend, and when Byun asked Coca made an on-the-spot decision in reaction to what Byun asked him. Coca made the wrong decision, but it was not premeditated. Byun, by asking Coca to give him the win, already came to the game with the mentality that if he loses then it's 'okay' to ask this of his friend Coca. I felt more upset with coca, but you have a very good point there.
No I'm pretty sure Byun was like "FUCK I LOST." and the thought / solution just came to mind at that instant. There's no evidence that it was premeditated at all otherwise they would have done it in bnet chat after Coca won the first game.
Stupid moves by two young players. Sucks for everybody involved.
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Seriously, this deserves this huge of a backlash just for the immense amount of stupidity displayed by Byun and especially CoCa here. If your opponent says in chat "leave now" and you want to not win, don't obviously throw the game like an idiot but just disconnect your ethernet cable for a re-game.
BAM, you just successfully match-fixed without anyone being able to prove anything.
People might get suspicious, but they did that with NesTea vs Mvp at Blizzcon too and nothing happened because they didn't go about it like complete retards.
Match-fixing is a big deal in Korea, yes they are young, but they should know how taboo it is, I mean they all witnessed the BW scandal, right?
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I agree with those saying that taking away the code S spot is the only "real" punishment available. Monetary fines are not an option, pro-gamers make little money as it is. It doesn't help anyone if the respective player starves...
Of course doing nothing would've been way worse.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 15 2011 17:36 iloveav wrote:
Therehave always been (since broodwar times) people who cheated one way or the other to get something. In A regular sociaty there is a standard punishment for that sort of acting.
However, in eSports it seems that Admins dont want to do something like that. Tthere are plenty of resons for that sort of actuation (diffrent legal systems, having a better control over a tournament, or even reasons that could be considered unfair).
When people say something is "untolerable", they should notice that a diffrent person in a diffrent culture might not think the same way (taking it to the extreme, the Aztecs made ritual sacrifices by taking out the heart of the victim).
The only way to make this work and clear, is to make a simple "licence agreement" that will state easy:
If you cheat, you will pay a MONETARY fine of a certain ammount depending on the offence.
im betteing there are less severe and invasive ways to do this as well, but without pointing any fingers now, i remmber many broodwar players who got caught cheating, got banned "permanently" only to be playing the next year again.
I am not saying that handling your friend a CODE A spot since you already have a code S is unforgivable, but im sure if he had to strech $200 as a fine for match fixing something like this, he would:
A) Think it twice
B) Not be so critisized.
Well at least thats what i think.
There's no reason why a competent organization like GOM TV and the teams can't evaluate each offense on a case by case basis and come to an agreement (seems like the teams dealt with this pretty straight up). Differentiating circumstances and all that.
This was a couple of kids being stupid: they got punished harshly for it (especially Coca). If it was a more experienced player (like say ForGG) who got caught doing this, it'd likely be a worse punishment.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1oROg.jpg)
So sad =(
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I have a very serious question here that I hope people will address:
Did anything ever came of the MVP vs Nestea game at Blizzcon? This coca vs byun case doesn't seem to be premeditated, where as blizzcon game would be (if in fact fixed). However there is no hard evidence of MVP and Nestea fixing it.
I think 2 players with 6 championships possibly fixing their matches is infinitely worse than what what coca and byun did. I can't believe they weren't even asked about it.
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Way to bring the hammer down. If you allow match fixing, why have competition at all? They did what needed to be done.
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I feel sorry for these two. They're both young and aspiring players, but one little mistake and they get blacklisted. What they did was wrong, whether they had good intentions or not, but they dont need such harsh backlash from the Korean community.
What I assume happened was that since Coca is already Code S, he wanted Byun to have a better chance at qualifying and thus wanted it to go to a third game. His decision was lacking and shortsighted but it was a mere mistake.
I doubt if they REALLY wanted to match fix that they would blatantly in chat exclaim it like that. I think Diamond's punishment and statement are reasonable and proper and I hope Coca and Byun get to play again soon.
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On November 15 2011 17:45 mrkent wrote:
I have a very serious question here that I hope people will address:
Did anything ever came of the MVP vs Nestea game at Blizzcon? This case doesn't seem to be premeditated, where as blizzcon game would be (if in fact fixed). However there is no hard evidence of MVP and Nestea fixing it.
I think 2 players with 6 championships possibly fixing their matches is infinitely worse than what what coca and byun did.
There's no evidence of match-fixing (aside from Nestea being dumb) and no reason to fix the match also. You're innocent until proven guilty. Stop kicking a dead horse.
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I feel this is about equivalent to this type of situation:
+ Show Spoiler +A goalie celebrates too early, and ends up letting a goal go by while celebrating
Coca made a ballsy move and ended up losing. I don't see how anyone can call this match fixing. I see it as "I just wanted to play one more game". He looks like an idiot for not taking the win when he should have. That's all the more punishment he needs.
This kind of reaction is baffling:
On November 15 2011 17:25 Strydor wrote:
Now Coca on the other hand. It's obvious that he threw the game, regardless of the reasons. He was caught red handed with video and picture proof, not just some person going "Hey, I think they fixed the match." and saying things based on evidence that had not yet been brought to light.
What Coca did, to put it crudely, is throw all the hard work that the organisers of the tournament did to get to the level it is back to their faces. It could also have cost potential sponsors with a mark like this which calls into question the legitimacy of e-sports tournaments.
Are you serious? Caught red handed? He wasn't hiding anything. Calls into question the legitimacy of e-sports? I just don't see it at all.
On November 15 2011 17:25 .Sic. wrote:
2. Coca blatantly left a game that he had won. He took a tournament as a joke, thereby taking away its legitimacy.
...
4. Right now, his mere presence in code S is a stain on the legitimacy of the Korean SC2 scene
Conclusion:
1. It was necessary for Coca to forfeit his spot to ensure the survival of starcraft 2 in Korea
How would Starcraft 2 die if Coca didn't forfeit his spot? How is Coca being around do anything to the legitimacy of SC2? We have people smurfing in tournaments in the foreign scene and nothing is said, no action is taken. That is far worse than this. And even so, it still doesn't matter. It's not a big deal. SC2 will go on. MLB Players are going to use steroids, but Baseball will go on. This doesn't even come close to comparing to Steroids. People love to drum up their drama at the drop of a hat, but this is the most ludicrous overreaction I've ever seen.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 15 2011 17:45 mrkent wrote:
I have a very serious question here that I hope people will address:
Did anything ever came of the MVP vs Nestea game at Blizzcon? This coca vs byun case doesn't seem to be premeditated, where as blizzcon game would be (if in fact fixed). However there is no hard evidence of MVP and Nestea fixing it.
I think 2 players with 6 championships possibly fixing their matches is infinitely worse than what what coca and byun did. I can't believe they weren't even asked about it.
There's no evidence that it was fixed, and a lot of pro players said it looked real and probably wasn't faked (zerg felt like he had no options).
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"Am I finally going to become a 'smart person' today"
It seems like he finally bought a smart phone. Unrelated to this thingy.
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I wanna say ByuN was half-joking when he asked CoCa to leave, whereas CoCa, who didn't really care, and is friends with ByuN decided to just leave. Regardless this is really sad and disappointing, a huge fan of both players 
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Wow, that's some really bad match fixing! Like what the hell how stupid can you be?
Give Taeja Coca's slot instead 
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Well, there was evidently no malice behind this, so I'm willing to forgive them, though obviously that doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished. What they did was wrong.
Although frankly, I wouldn't inherently mind forfeiting matches in someone's favour so long as it was done openly. Say, warning the tournament organisers beforehand so that they can make it clear that one player has forfeited and that they'll only be playing a showmatch instead. Obviously I'd rather they played real games, but I can understand wanting to help out a friend, and in this case I think replacing a real match with a showmatch is well worth the price of not forcing someone to choose between their integrity or their friend.
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Guy felt bad for a friend and old teammate.
Gave him a fighting chance in good sport
Had the conversation via in-game chat
Everyone goes apeshit
Obviously it's a bad thing to do. They could've made it more believable on top of private-chatting that converstaion. Their punishment is appropriate and i'm sure it was a one-time mistake. Not a huge deal
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On November 15 2011 17:47 Zeddicus wrote:I feel this is about equivalent to this type of situation: + Show Spoiler +Coca made a ballsy move and ended up losing. I don't see how anyone can call this match fixing. I see it as "I just wanted to play one more game". He looks like an idiot for not taking the win when he should have. That's all the more punishment he needs. This kind of reaction is baffling: Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 17:25 Strydor wrote:
Now Coca on the other hand. It's obvious that he threw the game, regardless of the reasons. He was caught red handed with video and picture proof, not just some person going "Hey, I think they fixed the match." and saying things based on evidence that had not yet been brought to light.
What Coca did, to put it crudely, is throw all the hard work that the organisers of the tournament did to get to the level it is back to their faces. It could also have cost potential sponsors with a mark like this which calls into question the legitimacy of e-sports tournaments. Are you serious? Caught red handed? He wasn't hiding anything. Calls into question the legitimacy of e-sports? I just don't see it at all. Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 17:25 .Sic. wrote:
2. Coca blatantly left a game that he had won. He took a tournament as a joke, thereby taking away its legitimacy.
...
4. Right now, his mere presence in code S is a stain on the legitimacy of the Korean SC2 scene
Conclusion:
1. It was necessary for Coca to forfeit his spot to ensure the survival of starcraft 2 in Korea
How would Starcraft 2 die if Coca didn't forfeit his spot? How is Coca being around do anything to the legitimacy of SC2? We have people smurfing in tournaments in the foreign scene and nothing is said, no action is taken. That is far worse than this. And even so, it still doesn't matter. It's not a big deal. SC2 will go on. MLB Players are going to use steroids, but Baseball will go on. This doesn't even come close to comparing to Steroids. People love to drum up their drama at the drop of a hat, but this is the most ludicrous overreaction I've ever seen.
So, how would you tell if Coca meets another teammate in Code S and loses by playing badly? I meant that he got caught doing something he should not even have contemplating doing, it throws away the legitimacy by showing that he's doing this more for entertainment than playing to win, like a professional player should be doing.
If I wanted to watch players win in scripted matches, I'd be watching WWE. I watch Starcraft 2 to support the players I like and hope that they win in fair and straight up matches. If they get cheesed out... too bad, but at least they played fairly.
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