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On November 08 2011 18:57 VPFaith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 18:55 tuestresfat wrote:On November 08 2011 18:51 VPFaith wrote:On November 08 2011 18:43 Heavenly wrote:On November 08 2011 18:38 avilo wrote:
Pretty sure they will revert the forge changes in 1-2 weeks. You're about to see ridiculous protoss dominance. EMP is iffy as well. Lol, the forge changes. Yeah, that one extra stalker or so is going to change the midgame so much. Hi, the one extra stalker/ unit that protoss player can squeeze in is totally wrong logic. Cheaper upgrades for all protoss ground units means faster upgrade times, which means this will buff the protoss army in mid-game exponentially. For example, protoss gets upgrades timing for +2 done at 14 minute mark which makes their army +2 attacks for all protoss units. So its not really that protoss can squeeze in another unit or 2, it just will help protoss increase army strength exponentially faster. The reason why they did not buff the research times for those upgrades instead is that if they do so, protoss will get x2 faster upgrades due to chronoboosts. At any rate, the shield upgrade will help PvZ a lot as zergs don't have emp. I hope this will clear up a lot of the misunderstandings. Thanks. But if I simply cut one warp in worth of production from one of my gateways, would I not be able to afford the pre-patch upgrades and have them finish at the exact same time? I think that's what he meant when he said "one extra stalker". Hi, if you are a protoss progamer, you would know protoss players love to abuse upgrade timings compared to the other 2 races because they have chronoboosts.
This is exactly what is fearing me... It's not the fact that you have cheaper upgrades, it's the fact that now every protoss will try to abuse more of the CB on upgrades. It was already strong before, but nobody used it cauz it wasn't perfectly clear if it was strong or not.
Now that they'll use it more and more, i feel that they'll start to believe it's stronger than they thought...
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On November 08 2011 19:00 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 18:57 VPFaith wrote:On November 08 2011 18:55 tuestresfat wrote:On November 08 2011 18:51 VPFaith wrote:On November 08 2011 18:43 Heavenly wrote:On November 08 2011 18:38 avilo wrote:
Pretty sure they will revert the forge changes in 1-2 weeks. You're about to see ridiculous protoss dominance. EMP is iffy as well. Lol, the forge changes. Yeah, that one extra stalker or so is going to change the midgame so much. Hi, the one extra stalker/ unit that protoss player can squeeze in is totally wrong logic. Cheaper upgrades for all protoss ground units means faster upgrade times, which means this will buff the protoss army in mid-game exponentially. For example, protoss gets upgrades timing for +2 done at 14 minute mark which makes their army +2 attacks for all protoss units. So its not really that protoss can squeeze in another unit or 2, it just will help protoss increase army strength exponentially faster. The reason why they did not buff the research times for those upgrades instead is that if they do so, protoss will get x2 faster upgrades due to chronoboosts. At any rate, the shield upgrade will help PvZ a lot as zergs don't have emp. I hope this will clear up a lot of the misunderstandings. Thanks. But if I simply cut one warp in worth of production from one of my gateways, would I not be able to afford the pre-patch upgrades and have them finish at the exact same time? I think that's what he meant when he said "one extra stalker". Hi, if you are a protoss progamer, you would know protoss players love to abuse upgrade timings compared to the other 2 races because they have chronoboosts. Hi I am not a progamer or even grandmaster player by any means which is why I appreciate your opinions on these changes. I play protoss at the masters level, not that it's relevant, but I have trouble recognizing how this patch affect the use of chronoboost on forges?
Thank you. It might be a bit harder for you to understand, but people in Korea makes new build regarding patches all day everyday to fit in tight build orders, so changes like cheaper upgrades, it will produce faster timings to help them win. Barely any protoss players in KR, so this will help them! Fighting!
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On November 08 2011 19:03 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 18:55 tuestresfat wrote:On November 08 2011 18:51 VPFaith wrote:On November 08 2011 18:43 Heavenly wrote:On November 08 2011 18:38 avilo wrote:
Pretty sure they will revert the forge changes in 1-2 weeks. You're about to see ridiculous protoss dominance. EMP is iffy as well. Lol, the forge changes. Yeah, that one extra stalker or so is going to change the midgame so much. Hi, the one extra stalker/ unit that protoss player can squeeze in is totally wrong logic. Cheaper upgrades for all protoss ground units means faster upgrade times, which means this will buff the protoss army in mid-game exponentially. For example, protoss gets upgrades timing for +2 done at 14 minute mark which makes their army +2 attacks for all protoss units. So its not really that protoss can squeeze in another unit or 2, it just will help protoss increase army strength exponentially faster. The reason why they did not buff the research times for those upgrades instead is that if they do so, protoss will get x2 faster upgrades due to chronoboosts. At any rate, the shield upgrade will help PvZ a lot as zergs don't have emp. I hope this will clear up a lot of the misunderstandings. Thanks. But if I simply cut one warp in worth of production from one of my gateways, would I not be able to afford the pre-patch upgrades and have them finish at the exact same time? I think that's what he meant when he said "one extra stalker". This is such a silly argument. The research time is identical, the price is changed by such a small amount that it now allows the production of a single unit like five seconds faster than before. I'm not even sure why Blizzard bothered making such an infinitesimally small change, and yet we have people on TL bitching and moaning that it's going to break their vP matchup. I want replays of the last game you won because your opponent had one more Zealot and one less Stalker while 2/2 was researching.
I don't understand, you start by calling my argument "silly" and then proceed to agree with everything I say?
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Where the Starcraft master portrait? only for grandmaster?
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marines OP -- nerf bunker
marines OP -- change zealot timing
marines OP -- nerf baracks building time
marines OP -- buff protoss upgrades
dont get me wrong i totally agree with blizz reducing the shield upgrade costs.
But its kind of ridiculous that protoss T3 ground armor is now 25/25 cheaper then zerg T2 (!) ground armor. (Protoss deathball will be reached even faster now which makes me worry about PvZ)
Instead of patching the game all around marines Blizz should at last just nerf marines which they are trying to avoid since release!!! Nerf marines NOW - it is about time!
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On November 08 2011 19:03 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 18:57 VPFaith wrote:On November 08 2011 18:55 tuestresfat wrote:On November 08 2011 18:51 VPFaith wrote:On November 08 2011 18:43 Heavenly wrote:On November 08 2011 18:38 avilo wrote:
Pretty sure they will revert the forge changes in 1-2 weeks. You're about to see ridiculous protoss dominance. EMP is iffy as well. Lol, the forge changes. Yeah, that one extra stalker or so is going to change the midgame so much. Hi, the one extra stalker/ unit that protoss player can squeeze in is totally wrong logic. Cheaper upgrades for all protoss ground units means faster upgrade times, which means this will buff the protoss army in mid-game exponentially. For example, protoss gets upgrades timing for +2 done at 14 minute mark which makes their army +2 attacks for all protoss units. So its not really that protoss can squeeze in another unit or 2, it just will help protoss increase army strength exponentially faster. The reason why they did not buff the research times for those upgrades instead is that if they do so, protoss will get x2 faster upgrades due to chronoboosts. At any rate, the shield upgrade will help PvZ a lot as zergs don't have emp. I hope this will clear up a lot of the misunderstandings. Thanks. But if I simply cut one warp in worth of production from one of my gateways, would I not be able to afford the pre-patch upgrades and have them finish at the exact same time? I think that's what he meant when he said "one extra stalker". Hi, if you are a protoss progamer, you would know protoss players love to abuse upgrade timings compared to the other 2 races because they have chronoboosts. This is exactly what is fearing me... It's not the fact that you have cheaper upgrades, it's the fact that now every protoss will try to abuse more of the CB on upgrades. It was already strong before, but nobody used it cauz it wasn't perfectly clear if it was strong or not. Now that they'll use it more and more, i feel that they'll start to believe it's stronger than they thought...
I don't think Protoss players are dumb enough to let a 25/25 discount influence their choice of builds. If hatcheries were increased to 325 minerals you wouldn't all of a sudden see Zergs stay on one base forever.
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On November 08 2011 18:54 VPFaith wrote:
Oh btw, I strongly believes this will help those Protoss players who loves 2 base all ins =)
Yeah, double forge play has always been geared toward 2 base all inning.
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god so many people arguing over whether a cost decrease will get upgrades out faster. yes it will, because they can afford the upgrade sooner. obviously we're talking a difference of 50 gas or whatever, so the upgrade timing will stay pretty much the same (especially since most toss don't time resources with upgrades anyway).
WOOOH EMP NERF. as a zerg player i'm happy about this. not that it really helps much in the matchup, but at least it makes ghosts less of a god unit and more of a specialty unit like it's supposed to be. now we just need a snipe nerf to massive and we're good.
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I don't think Protoss players are dumb enough to let a 25/25 discount influence their choice of builds. If hatcheries were increased to 325 minerals you wouldn't all of a sudden see Zergs stay on one base forever.[/QUOTE]
Its about the timings, and if Hatcheries are 325 minerals instead of 300 minerals, "smart" zerg players will send the drone out 2-3 seconds later. =)
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On November 08 2011 19:04 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 19:03 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On November 08 2011 18:55 tuestresfat wrote:On November 08 2011 18:51 VPFaith wrote:On November 08 2011 18:43 Heavenly wrote:On November 08 2011 18:38 avilo wrote:
Pretty sure they will revert the forge changes in 1-2 weeks. You're about to see ridiculous protoss dominance. EMP is iffy as well. Lol, the forge changes. Yeah, that one extra stalker or so is going to change the midgame so much. Hi, the one extra stalker/ unit that protoss player can squeeze in is totally wrong logic. Cheaper upgrades for all protoss ground units means faster upgrade times, which means this will buff the protoss army in mid-game exponentially. For example, protoss gets upgrades timing for +2 done at 14 minute mark which makes their army +2 attacks for all protoss units. So its not really that protoss can squeeze in another unit or 2, it just will help protoss increase army strength exponentially faster. The reason why they did not buff the research times for those upgrades instead is that if they do so, protoss will get x2 faster upgrades due to chronoboosts. At any rate, the shield upgrade will help PvZ a lot as zergs don't have emp. I hope this will clear up a lot of the misunderstandings. Thanks. But if I simply cut one warp in worth of production from one of my gateways, would I not be able to afford the pre-patch upgrades and have them finish at the exact same time? I think that's what he meant when he said "one extra stalker". This is such a silly argument. The research time is identical, the price is changed by such a small amount that it now allows the production of a single unit like five seconds faster than before. I'm not even sure why Blizzard bothered making such an infinitesimally small change, and yet we have people on TL bitching and moaning that it's going to break their vP matchup. I want replays of the last game you won because your opponent had one more Zealot and one less Stalker while 2/2 was researching. I don't understand, you start by calling my argument "silly" and then proceed to agree with everything I say?
Yeah, I edited my post. I meant that the entire discussion is silly, not that anything you said was silly. I can't believe that the debate is taking place that shaving half a unit worth of resources off of an upgrade is making Protoss OP.
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On November 08 2011 19:05 Meega wrote:
marines OP -- nerf bunker
marines OP -- change zealot timing
marines OP -- nerf baracks building time
marines OP -- buff protoss upgrades
dont get me wrong i totally agree with blizz reducing the shield upgrade costs.
But its kind of ridiculous that protoss T3 ground armor is now 25/25 cheaper then zerg T2 (!) ground armor. (Protoss deathball will be reached even faster now which makes me worry about PvZ)
Instead of patching the game all around marines Blizz should at last just nerf marines which they are trying to avoid since release!!! Nerf marines NOW - it is about time!
Protoss doesn't need nerfed Marines, Protoss needs nerfed Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts :D
I can't believe there are actually people complaining about these changes. "PROTOSS WILL NOW BE ABLE TO ABUSE CHRONOBOOST TO BE EVEN GIANTER CHEESY FAGGOTS". Has it gotten so bad that Protoss winning games is considered bad game design?
Obviously I'm taking things far, far out of proportion, but then again so does everyone who discusses balance.
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On November 08 2011 19:07 TheDraken wrote:
god so many people arguing over whether a cost decrease will get upgrades out faster. yes it will, because they can afford the upgrade sooner. obviously we're talking a difference of 50 gas or whatever, so the upgrade timing will stay pretty much the same (especially since most toss don't time resources with upgrades anyway).
WOOOH EMP NERF. as a zerg player i'm happy about this. not that it really helps much in the matchup, but at least it makes ghosts less of a god unit and more of a specialty unit like it's supposed to be. now we just need a snipe nerf to massive and we're good.
Haha, are snipes that Overpowered? 1 feedback pretty much kill any unit that has energy.
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I think Feedbacks should not be killing the unit completely, rather, drains Health to 1 HP. What do you guys think, I mean infestors can be saved =)
I suggest that because someone told me a unit in Broodwar cannot kill the unit but can only get the unit to like 1HP or something? Correct me if im wrong.
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On November 08 2011 19:15 VPFaith wrote:
I think Feedbacks should not be killing the unit completely, rather, drains Health to 1 HP. What do you guys think, I mean infestors can be saved =)
I suggest that because someone told me a unit in Broodwar cannot kill the unit but can only get the unit to like 1HP or something? Correct me if im wrong.
Pretty hard to kill infestors with feedback, actually, it is not something you see very often in pro matches right? Ghosts as well, even harder. And medivacs are almost always low energy. So having a spell that sometimes can kill an enemy unit is pretty fine, otherwise it would have been nerfed a long time ago. It needs to be that way, as a matter of fact, feedback is single target and kills, emp is aoe and do not kill. I would change feedback with emp anytime =D
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On November 08 2011 18:39 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 18:25 XenoX101 wrote:
You have two options as a Terran
1) Work a bit harder in PvT
2) Complain
3) Complain despite the fact I never figured out how to use ghost emp effectively anyway
Please choose the right one. I think I know what most people chose. The majority of TL posters are diamond or lower. 99% of you guys never figured out how to use EMP in your standard PvT anyway so quit complaining.
We shouldn't have pro-gamer level spellcasting micro to be able to win TvP (or vice versa). I understand that balancing should address concerns at the very highest skill levels first and foremost, but if Blizzard wants people to buy their games, they need to at least attempt to correct things in ways that don't break bronze through diamond, because that comprises literally 98% of people who paid $60 for their game.
I personally can't get good EMPs off consistently because my computer is a piece of shit that occasionally drops to 5-10 FPS during big protoss laser beam/storm battles. This change will make it even harder. This doesn't break things in TvZ or TvT, because army positioning and composition matters much more than landing individual spells in a 1 second window.
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On November 08 2011 19:01 Ramble wrote:
This thread just constantly reminds me why i should not read patch threads, how is reducing cost allowing people to upgrade faster?
Make stim 50/50 and I'll show you.
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On November 08 2011 19:32 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 19:01 Ramble wrote:
This thread just constantly reminds me why i should not read patch threads, how is reducing cost allowing people to upgrade faster? Make stim 50/50 and I'll show you.
It isn't +1 they have reduced the cost for.
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On November 08 2011 19:34 Twinmold wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 19:32 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 19:01 Ramble wrote:
This thread just constantly reminds me why i should not read patch threads, how is reducing cost allowing people to upgrade faster? Make stim 50/50 and I'll show you. It isn't +1 they have reduced the cost for.
The point being that when something costs less, you can start it earlier.
People saying "it's just like cutting one stalker" are making an odd argument. By the time 1/1 finishes, people at top levels of play aren't (hopefully) making a haphazardly chosen amount of stalkers, but rather exactly the amount of stalkers they need at that point.
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On November 08 2011 19:30 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 18:39 tuestresfat wrote:On November 08 2011 18:25 XenoX101 wrote:
You have two options as a Terran
1) Work a bit harder in PvT
2) Complain
3) Complain despite the fact I never figured out how to use ghost emp effectively anyway
Please choose the right one. I think I know what most people chose. The majority of TL posters are diamond or lower. 99% of you guys never figured out how to use EMP in your standard PvT anyway so quit complaining. We shouldn't have pro-gamer level spellcasting micro to be able to win TvP (or vice versa). I understand that balancing should address concerns at the very highest skill levels first and foremost, but if Blizzard wants people to buy their games, they need to at least attempt to correct things in ways that don't break bronze through diamond, because that comprises literally 98% of people who paid $60 for their game. I personally can't get good EMPs off consistently because my computer is a piece of shit that occasionally drops to 5-10 FPS during big protoss laser beam/storm battles. This change will make it even harder. This doesn't break things in TvZ or TvT, because army positioning and composition matters much more than landing individual spells in a 1 second window.
So not only does Blizzard need to make the game well balanced and entertaining to watch at the highest levels, and it needs to be balanced for bronzies, but it also has to be balanced when played on computers that can't render the game's graphics? Should SC2 also be balanced for players who can't afford a keyboard?
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On November 08 2011 19:37 yeint wrote:
The point being that when something costs less, you can start it earlier.
People saying "it's just like cutting one stalker" are making an odd argument. By the time 1/1 finishes, people at top levels of play aren't (hopefully) making a haphazardly chosen amount of stalkers, but rather exactly the amount of stalkers they need at that point.
-> When you are going for lots of upgrades, as soon as you have finished +1/+1 you will go straight for +2/+2, no? You rarely see pros delaying their 2/2 upgrades because they don't have enough money have 1/1.
-> The patch does not affect +1 Weapons or Armour
-> The patch will not speed up 2/2 at all
-> The patch will only affect the speed people get Shield upgrades.
-> If you are complaining about Shield upgrade speed I don't want to discuss anything with you anyway, as you have clearly fallen into the land of Cheshire cats and the Queen of Hearts.
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EPT
