1.4.2 Patch Live - Page 19
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Irre
United States646 Posts
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yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On November 08 2011 17:49 SeaSwift wrote: *Wiping tears of laughter from my eyes* I feel for you bro. Going up against all those 1-A Chargelot/Sentry/HT compositions must be hard with such a skill-based MMG composition. It's outrageous that this patch forces you to 1-1-1 every game too. [/sarcasm] I don't think Protoss should have to deal with ghosts stripping all their shields either. Why is everything a pissing match between the races? I am not accusing Protoss of a-moving, I am saying I dislike macro not counting for shit if either side makes a tiny mistake versus enemy spellcasters. I am not going to 1/1/1 all-in, I am just going to play tank/marine/banshee against protoss now. | ||
SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On November 08 2011 17:55 yeint wrote: I don't think Protoss should have to deal with ghosts stripping all their shields either. Why is everything a pissing match between the races? I am not accusing Protoss of a-moving, I am saying I dislike macro not counting for shit if either side makes a tiny mistake versus enemy spellcasters. I am not going to 1/1/1 all-in, I am just going to play tank/marine/banshee against protoss now. If you don't bring the scv's you push will be too late. if protoss have enough time to get 2 colossus or chargelot archon you'll be in trouble. non all-in 1/1/1 build isn't actually that great unless you do a tonne of damage with the banshee opening, in which case you're ahead anyway. In my experience anyway. | ||
yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On November 08 2011 17:54 Kharnage wrote: And I've never lost a game due to misclicking the FF on the ramp and letting the mm stim timing push into my base. ![]() If you're relying on nothing but that forcefield by the time your opponent has stim ready, then yes, it's perfectly reasonable that you have to land it properly, because you're teching rather greedily. It's just the one choke, and you really have nothing else to watch at that point. What I'm complaining about is the fact that both sides can be one 3+ bases, with big, upgraded armies, and the fight comes down to "will you EMP me before I split your army in half with forcefields". I dislike the idea of you losing all your shields just as much as I dislike the idea of forcefields preventing me from fighting chargelots properly. I would be far happier with a nerf to the amount of shield damage EMP does than making it harder to hit sentries with them. | ||
yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On November 08 2011 18:02 Kharnage wrote: If you don't bring the scv's you push will be too late. if protoss have enough time to get 2 colossus or chargelot archon you'll be in trouble. non all-in 1/1/1 build isn't actually that great unless you do a tonne of damage with the banshee opening, in which case you're ahead anyway. In my experience anyway. I think it works better if you just use it to deny the natural, then contain as you expand behind it, then fall back to defend your relatively quick third. Banshees and tanks keep colossus back, and marines protect tanks against chargelots. | ||
ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On November 08 2011 17:55 yeint wrote: [...] I am not going to 1/1/1 all-in, I am just going to play tank/marine/banshee against protoss now. You mean the macro build where you go one barracks, one factory, one starport, produces some SCVs but not too many, to leave more comfort room for the MULE. Then you produce some tank/marines/banshees, and go light pressure your opponent with it? (Bring some SCVs as well, just in case the mineral line is a bit too tight for the MULE). Sometimes you can do some damage, it's a good build ^^. And when you're finished mining out your main, you just lift your orbital and put it in the natural, it's very economical, you save one command center at the very least. | ||
yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On November 08 2011 18:07 ZenithM wrote: You mean the macro build where you go one barracks, one factory, one starport, produces some SCVs but not too many, to leave more comfort room for the MULE. Then you produce some tank/marines/banshees, and go light pressure your opponent with it? (Bring some SCVs as well, just in case the mineral line is a bit too tight for the MULE). Sometimes you can do some damage, it's a good build ^^. And when you're finished mining out your main, you just lift your orbital and put it in the natural, it's very economical, you save one command center at the very least. There's absolutely no need to be a dick. No, I mean a 1/1/1 tech opening that starts like the banshee/tank/rine 9 minute all-in timing, but instead of adding extra rax, you start your natural behind it. You seek to kill or deny the natural while retaining your army, then falling back to defend your third. I've seen plenty of GM terrans do this. | ||
pedduck
Thailand468 Posts
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Capped
United Kingdom7236 Posts
Drop harrass / attack them as they put up third --> force cancel ---> kill. Even when it gets to late macro games its pretty easy, unless they go mass zealot / templar / archon. Now that shit is even harder to beat. | ||
Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On November 08 2011 18:03 yeint wrote: If you're relying on nothing but that forcefield by the time your opponent has stim ready, then yes, it's perfectly reasonable that you have to land it properly, because you're teching rather greedily. It's just the one choke, and you really have nothing else to watch at that point. What I'm complaining about is the fact that both sides can be one 3+ bases, with big, upgraded armies, and the fight comes down to "will you EMP me before I split your army in half with forcefields". I dislike the idea of you losing all your shields just as much as I dislike the idea of forcefields preventing me from fighting chargelots properly. I would be far happier with a nerf to the amount of shield damage EMP does than making it harder to hit sentries with them. Personally I was hoping they would make shield upgrades reduce the amount of damage EMP does by say, 20dmg per upgrade? That way protoss would actually get shield ups vs terran. | ||
yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On November 08 2011 18:11 Kharnage wrote: Personally I was hoping they would make shield upgrades reduce the amount of damage EMP does by say, 20dmg per upgrade? That way protoss would actually get shield ups vs terran. I like that idea a lot. It would make EMP potent as a defense against early Immortal all-ins, but make it less of a damage dealer in the late game, and more about preventing storms and forcefields, which I think should be its primary purpose anyway. | ||
tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On November 08 2011 17:54 Irre wrote: great..so on NA and EU the gmaster ladder will be further dominated by protoss than it already is. Its pretty funny that all the foreign players feel they can complain about Terran imbalance when the only place its actually seen is by the best korean terrans which don't affect anyones ladder rankings. Oh well gg protoss, you'll just have to deal with even more all ins from frustrated terrans that don't want to deal with mass aoe and endless chargelot warpins that require far too much control/multitasking for mortal players. But by all means if they feel the pro level is imbalanced based on Protoss not winning things (lol) its much more important to balance the top tier (Aka korea). I'm getting so tired of posting this but it's not just Korea. The latest TLPD tournament win rates show protoss behind in both match ups worldwide. And they have been behind for several months. The highest level of the game is where balance has to happen because this is the only place where players are using the races at close to their full potential. If you balance based on lower levels you will end up with the ridiculous situation where there will not be any protoss left in high level competitions. On the ladder MMR determines that you will end up with a 50% win rate regardless so it simply does not matter. | ||
Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On November 08 2011 18:10 yeint wrote: There's absolutely no need to be a dick. No, I mean a 1/1/1 tech opening that starts like the banshee/tank/rine 9 minute all-in timing, but instead of adding extra rax, you start your natural behind it. You seek to kill or deny the natural while retaining your army, then falling back to defend your third. I've seen plenty of GM terrans do this. GL with it, but any protoss that scouts it will assume it's all in and be warping in units like crazy. I'd be hoping to catch you in transit with chargelots or immortals. Expansion timing is critical in PvT. You either go 1 gate expand or get an obs and wait for terran to expand. Putting your nexus down when terran is 1 basing is suicide. | ||
SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On November 08 2011 18:19 Kharnage wrote: Expansion timing is critical in PvT. You either go 1 gate expand or get an obs and wait for terran to expand. Putting your nexus down when terran is 1 basing is suicide. Actually, it's the other way round. To beat a 1-1-1 you NEED a fast expansion, or else gosu HerO/MC Phoenix/DT micro. 1basing vs a 1-1-1 does not work consistently. Look it up in the strategy guides. | ||
XenoX101
Australia729 Posts
1) Work a bit harder in PvT 2) Complain Please choose the right one. | ||
ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On November 08 2011 18:10 yeint wrote: There's absolutely no need to be a dick. No, I mean a 1/1/1 tech opening that starts like the banshee/tank/rine 9 minute all-in timing, but instead of adding extra rax, you start your natural behind it. You seek to kill or deny the natural while retaining your army, then falling back to defend your third. I've seen plenty of GM terrans do this. Rooh I was just joking man. And I know of what you're talking about, don't worry. It's something very popular among EU Terran GMs I believe (not KR ones), and it's because of openings like this that PvT seems more balanced in EU. That 111 opening gives Protoss the economic edge, so if you don't do shit with your banshee, you're basically behind and your push will be crushed by raw unit count. The reason the banshee sometimes does things is because it can work against slow players. Example (not with banshees but with a 1/1/1 hellion drop): Sjow vs Elfi at the ASUS Invitational. It was quite an awful set of games, Sjow doing a 1/1/1 expand and both players at barely 90 APM unable to defend slight harass (Sjow even losing his entire mineral line to 4 zealots, as Elfi did vs HuK) My point is not to bash players, but this kind of openings should not work against good players (good multitaskers). I'm so happy when someone opens banshees against me and doesn't push with the all in afterwards. 1 rax FE is way more scary, as well as good pressure openings like 2 rax. | ||
Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
But I'm wondering, did the Immortal patch fix the 1/1/1 problem? Or did Protoss figure out how to hold it off? Or is it no longer a problem because it's considered "dirty" and Terrans stopped using it? I mean, I don't see any material changes at all to make 1/1/1 less viable. Finally, IMHO MMM+V/G is honestly the only consistently good TvP composition. I'll believe otherwise when Terrans consistently use Mech/Air/even Biomech compositions in a non-all-in fashion. | ||
yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On November 08 2011 18:26 ZenithM wrote: Rooh I was just joking man. And I know of what you're talking about, don't worry. It's something very popular among EU Terran GMs I believe (not KR ones), and it's because of openings like this that PvT seems more balanced in EU. That 111 opening gives Protoss the economic edge, so if you don't do shit with your banshee, you're basically behind and your push will be crushed by raw unit count. The reason the banshee sometimes does things is because it can work against slow players. Example (not with banshees but with a 1/1/1 hellion drop): Sjow vs Elfi at the ASUS Invitational. It was quite an awful set of games, Sjow doing a 1/1/1 expand and both players at barely 90 APM unable to defend slight harass (Sjow even losing his entire mineral line to 4 zealots, as Elfi did vs HuK) My point is not to bash players, but this kind of openings should not work against good players (good multitaskers). I'm so happy when someone opens banshees against me and doesn't push with the all in afterwards. 1 rax FE is way more scary, as well as good pressure openings like 2 rax. Well, I don't have the issue of facing GM players, so it should work fine. It's just sad because I really enjoyed playing MMM/Viking back when Protoss hadn't discovered that zealots are really, really good. | ||
Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On November 08 2011 18:22 SeaSwift wrote: Actually, it's the other way round. To beat a 1-1-1 you NEED a fast expansion, or else gosu HerO/MC Phoenix/DT micro. 1basing vs a 1-1-1 does not work consistently. Look it up in the strategy guides. sorry, I think you're missing my point. If you HAVEN'T fast expanded, for what ever reason and then you scout a 1/1/1 build (obs, hallu pheonix, pick your poison) the WORST thing to do now is expand. you are by far better off dumping everything into army or getting some sort of tech edge (DT, immortal, whatever). putting an expansion down now is too late, you don't get enough economy in time to justify it, won't have enough army to defend it and will lose to the 1 base terran push. | ||
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