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On November 08 2011 15:31 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +The safest change is a nerf. It's the one where you know what you get, and will most likely solve the problem with the least blowback. Why does it always need to be the safest possible change every time They have the PTR to test out patches. Why not try shit in there? ~~ Probably going to be switching to protoss now. Offraced as them sometimes, but now with dual forge being even stronger, and EMP being less effective, it's not worth it to try and beat toss with terran Show nested quote +Out of curiosity, why can't a terran open 4 rax, get 1/1 and mmm then build some extra factories, swap over the tech labs and use the naked rax for marines, which are always good (even more so with combat shield and 1/1 already researched) and transition into mech?
I know that 200m/200g has been "sunk" into those marines, but it's not exactly a huge investment and it's not like 4 marine making rax is a total loss either. In fact, now that I think about it, your gas gets immediately freed up while your marines keep you safe during your transition. Why isn't it viable? Marines are really bad against toss if they aren't going mass immortal or mass Vray/Phoenix colossi and stalkers are all really good at chipping away at marines from range, while chargelots with +armor dominate marines in straight up fights and archons can also dominate. Coincidentally, chargelots also destroy mech unless you have like 20 hellions, because tanks are terrible and expensive.
No one is playing there go get a good enough feedback. That's why. The only place they can try "adding" new things is in beta, where a LOT of ppl play.
EDIT: you are wayyyy over reacting for the toss buff. As someone pointed out, for the timing push, it effectively transformes a zealot into a stalker. That's it! It's not some phenomenal changes that broke the game. As for EMP, it now effectively has the same radius as storm (which is 1.5 since release).
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Whatever. I'm still going to 1/1/1 or do some other all-in against every Protoss on the ladder because it's such a lame matchup. When Blizzard introduces some sort of patch or expansion that makes my factory good for something besides scouting in a real game I'll consider playing straight up.
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these forge upgrades are just
going to create problems...
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On November 08 2011 15:31 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +The safest change is a nerf. It's the one where you know what you get, and will most likely solve the problem with the least blowback. Why does it always need to be the safest possible change every time They have the PTR to test out patches. Why not try shit in there? ~~ Probably going to be switching to protoss now. Offraced as them sometimes, but now with dual forge being even stronger, and EMP being less effective, it's not worth it to try and beat toss with terran Show nested quote +Out of curiosity, why can't a terran open 4 rax, get 1/1 and mmm then build some extra factories, swap over the tech labs and use the naked rax for marines, which are always good (even more so with combat shield and 1/1 already researched) and transition into mech?
I know that 200m/200g has been "sunk" into those marines, but it's not exactly a huge investment and it's not like 4 marine making rax is a total loss either. In fact, now that I think about it, your gas gets immediately freed up while your marines keep you safe during your transition. Why isn't it viable? Marines are really bad against toss if they aren't going mass immortal or mass Vray/Phoenix colossi and stalkers are all really good at chipping away at marines from range, while chargelots with +armor dominate marines in straight up fights and archons can also dominate. Coincidentally, chargelots also destroy mech unless you have like 20 hellions, because tanks are terrible and expensive.
but isn't that an arguement FOR getting 1/1 bio into mech? stalkers upgrade terribly and you can't make colossus AND immortals. chargelots do well vs small numbers, but once the army size gets high they die like lings.
I guess the more important question is what mech should terran build since thors and tanks aren't actually that great vs protoss in general.
huh, i guess that answers my question for me. terran don't tech switch cause MMM + ghost + viking (and maybe some banshees) is actually the best units terran CAN field vs protoss. if you could build a dream composition vs a protoss player with whatever upgrades you want you probably wouldn't get thors and tanks anyway.
it has nothing to do with upgrade "synergy" it's just you don't want mech units in that army.
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On November 08 2011 15:45 Ryze wrote:
these forge upgrades are just
going to create problems...
Why? People have done the math and it nets you a few more units. Not game changing in the slightest.
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On November 08 2011 15:45 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 15:31 Active.815 wrote:The safest change is a nerf. It's the one where you know what you get, and will most likely solve the problem with the least blowback. Why does it always need to be the safest possible change every time They have the PTR to test out patches. Why not try shit in there? ~~ Probably going to be switching to protoss now. Offraced as them sometimes, but now with dual forge being even stronger, and EMP being less effective, it's not worth it to try and beat toss with terran Out of curiosity, why can't a terran open 4 rax, get 1/1 and mmm then build some extra factories, swap over the tech labs and use the naked rax for marines, which are always good (even more so with combat shield and 1/1 already researched) and transition into mech?
I know that 200m/200g has been "sunk" into those marines, but it's not exactly a huge investment and it's not like 4 marine making rax is a total loss either. In fact, now that I think about it, your gas gets immediately freed up while your marines keep you safe during your transition. Why isn't it viable? Marines are really bad against toss if they aren't going mass immortal or mass Vray/Phoenix colossi and stalkers are all really good at chipping away at marines from range, while chargelots with +armor dominate marines in straight up fights and archons can also dominate. Coincidentally, chargelots also destroy mech unless you have like 20 hellions, because tanks are terrible and expensive. but isn't that an arguement FOR getting 1/1 bio into mech? stalkers upgrade terribly and you can't make colossus AND immortals. chargelots do well vs small numbers, but once the army size gets high they die like lings. I guess the more important question is what mech should terran build since thors and tanks aren't actually that great vs protoss in general. huh, i guess that answers my question for me. terran don't tech switch cause MMM + ghost + viking (and maybe some banshees) is actually the best units terran CAN field vs protoss. if you could build a dream composition vs a protoss player with whatever upgrades you want you probably wouldn't get thors and tanks anyway. it has nothing to do with upgrade "synergy" it's just you don't want mech units in that army.
Bleugh 1/1 bio into mech?
Cant really see that working, you waste so much time and quite a lot of money on 1/1 for bio that will be completely useless later. Ugrade synergy is a very important aspect of the game. You think its hard for Toss to tech switch now? Imagine if gateway units AND robo units AND stargate units had separate ugrades. Yuk.
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Is there a reverse version of the playtime parental controls being implemented for koreans? I mean, I hear Julyzerg's dad would be pretty choked if he played less than 8 hours a day.
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On November 08 2011 16:06 Gatored wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 15:45 Ryze wrote:
these forge upgrades are just
going to create problems... Why? People have done the math and it nets you a few more units. Not game changing in the slightest.
It's kind of like the halluc buff.
Before, it was good but kind of rarely seen. Now that it's been buffed, every laddertoss is going to be "omg upgrades", and give terran an even harder time in non 1-1-1 games
Meanwhile, at the top level (speculating), upgrades are going to be more accessible for forge FE plays, and robo/council will probably get a few new +x timing pushes that will really help in PvZ, but hurt PvT even more.
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the upgrade buff will not have any effect on lower league players (i.e. masters and lower). the cost difference is too minimal and blizzard just wanted to target pros with the upgrade buff.
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On November 08 2011 16:17 SoKHo wrote:
the upgrade buff will not have any effect on lower league players (i.e. masters and lower). the cost difference is too minimal and blizzard just wanted to target pros with the upgrade buff.
actually i think shortly after the patch there will be an effect, but it will be more psychological. People will go for upgrades more just because they are cheaper. It will make no difference in those leagues as far as costs go, but it will encourage people to use upgrades more
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On November 08 2011 16:06 Gatored wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 15:45 Ryze wrote:
these forge upgrades are just
going to create problems... Why? People have done the math and it nets you a few more units. Not game changing in the slightest.
It means you can get the upgrades sooner more easily because they cost less, you don't need as much of an economy to get the upgrades and still produce units. I'd say it's a big deal.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 08 2011 16:27 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 16:06 Gatored wrote:On November 08 2011 15:45 Ryze wrote:
these forge upgrades are just
going to create problems... Why? People have done the math and it nets you a few more units. Not game changing in the slightest. It means you can get the upgrades sooner more easily because they cost less, you don't need as much of an economy to get the upgrades and still produce units. I'd say it's a big deal.
It's going to amount to no more than a few seconds, if your spending and macro are literally 100% perfect.
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On November 08 2011 09:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 09:04 FuzzyJAM wrote:
So basically every Terran who isn't a Korean GM will be losing TvPs even more.
I recognise the need for changes for the pros, it's just a shame that everyone else is going to have issues. Hopefully Terrans can figure out a way to play, because TvP is really hard at non-pro level, at least as far as I'm concerned. Make ghosts o.O They still trump high templar. I still don't understand why so many Terrans never used ghosts in their army for so long, and now that they may have to make one or two more to cast an extra EMP or two, they feel like all hope is lost.
I never understood why people insist on making passive aggressive comments.
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ooooooooof good patch for us Protoss!! part of me would of prefered mayb 1 or 2 range less instead on emp but lets see how this pans out!!
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On November 08 2011 16:49 Tommylew wrote:
ooooooooof good patch for us Protoss!! part of me would of prefered mayb 1 or 2 range less instead on emp but lets see how this pans out!!
Really?
"i can has 100% winrate?"
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On November 08 2011 16:06 HystericaLaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 15:45 Kharnage wrote:On November 08 2011 15:31 Active.815 wrote:The safest change is a nerf. It's the one where you know what you get, and will most likely solve the problem with the least blowback. Why does it always need to be the safest possible change every time They have the PTR to test out patches. Why not try shit in there? ~~ Probably going to be switching to protoss now. Offraced as them sometimes, but now with dual forge being even stronger, and EMP being less effective, it's not worth it to try and beat toss with terran Out of curiosity, why can't a terran open 4 rax, get 1/1 and mmm then build some extra factories, swap over the tech labs and use the naked rax for marines, which are always good (even more so with combat shield and 1/1 already researched) and transition into mech?
I know that 200m/200g has been "sunk" into those marines, but it's not exactly a huge investment and it's not like 4 marine making rax is a total loss either. In fact, now that I think about it, your gas gets immediately freed up while your marines keep you safe during your transition. Why isn't it viable? Marines are really bad against toss if they aren't going mass immortal or mass Vray/Phoenix colossi and stalkers are all really good at chipping away at marines from range, while chargelots with +armor dominate marines in straight up fights and archons can also dominate. Coincidentally, chargelots also destroy mech unless you have like 20 hellions, because tanks are terrible and expensive. but isn't that an arguement FOR getting 1/1 bio into mech? stalkers upgrade terribly and you can't make colossus AND immortals. chargelots do well vs small numbers, but once the army size gets high they die like lings. I guess the more important question is what mech should terran build since thors and tanks aren't actually that great vs protoss in general. huh, i guess that answers my question for me. terran don't tech switch cause MMM + ghost + viking (and maybe some banshees) is actually the best units terran CAN field vs protoss. if you could build a dream composition vs a protoss player with whatever upgrades you want you probably wouldn't get thors and tanks anyway. it has nothing to do with upgrade "synergy" it's just you don't want mech units in that army. Bleugh 1/1 bio into mech? Cant really see that working, you waste so much time and quite a lot of money on 1/1 for bio that will be completely useless later. Ugrade synergy is a very important aspect of the game. You think its hard for Toss to tech switch now? Imagine if gateway units AND robo units AND stargate units had separate ugrades. Yuk.
umm, stargate does have seperate upgrades to robo/gateway.
if robo had separate upgrades to gateway i can guarantee 2 things:
protoss would still get colossus and immortals.
protoss would still get gateway units.
there is no option.
upgrade synergy IS important, but I think you are over exaggerating it's importance.
If bio and mech shared upgrades, how much more likely would you be to switch to mech after opening bio vs protoss?
what mech units would you build?
I'd wager even if mech came out of barracks AND shared upgrades with bio you'd still think twice about building tanks over marauders vs protoss.
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On November 08 2011 16:17 SoKHo wrote:
the upgrade buff will not have any effect on lower league players (i.e. masters and lower). the cost difference is too minimal and blizzard just wanted to target pros with the upgrade buff.
Totally agree with this.
The emp nerf is big, still, deserved, too much damage in tvp for a tier 2 spell caster.
And the upgrades buff is really really a slight buff. Those very very small changes only affect the most perfected level of play where a little difference can give you the upper hand; it will not modify levels where players make tons of mistakes (masters and lower leagues).
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On November 08 2011 16:06 Gatored wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 15:45 Ryze wrote:
these forge upgrades are just
going to create problems... Why? People have done the math and it nets you a few more units. Not game changing in the slightest.
because protoss already gets on 3/3/3 way quicker than zerg can in the first place with chronoboost and now it will be even faster :\
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Canada13407 Posts
On November 08 2011 17:03 Ryze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 16:06 Gatored wrote:On November 08 2011 15:45 Ryze wrote:
these forge upgrades are just
going to create problems... Why? People have done the math and it nets you a few more units. Not game changing in the slightest. because protoss already gets on 3/3/3 way quicker than zerg can in the first place with chronoboost and now it will be even faster :\
Its not Faster. Research time: the same. Research cost: only minimally less.So little less that it won't start any earlier - We as protoss will still chrono and start +2 the second +1 is done. We will have one more stalker once +2 is done. Thats it :/
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Patch 1.4.2
In Addition
Zerg
Infestors Neural Parasite ability has been reverted back to its original state of 9 Yards.
Lol, first patch with no zerg changes? Well thank you for the ghost nerf, helped all of us!
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EPT
