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On November 08 2011 13:07 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:55 canikizu wrote:On November 08 2011 12:35 upperbound wrote:On November 08 2011 12:30 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 08 2011 12:26 SoKHo wrote:On November 08 2011 12:22 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 08 2011 12:09 Daralii wrote:On November 08 2011 12:07 ZorBa.G wrote:OK, I must admit that I'm a sad Marine now. How come Terran doesn't get a powerful unit that we can simply a move with hardly any micro? Zergs get the broodlord, Toss gett the collossi... all in the meantime us Terrans keep getting nerfed and are expected to micro EVEN MORE! I used to do the 1 rax fe and 2 rax pressure fe builds against Toss..... I'm debating wether if I should now resort to doing the 1-1-1. If us Terrans keep spamming the 1-1-1 build, we'll just see more continous QQ from other races accusing us Terrans of being imba. I think we should just do the 1 rax fe builds now and hope to god we don't get nerfed even more. Hang on, what am I saying? No matter what Terran does, we will just keep getting nerfed lol. Screw it, I'm spamming 1-1-1 against every fkn toss now. I feel sorry for new players that are introduced to the game a couple years from now. It will be like, "Why the fuck do I have to micro so god damn much just to stay even with a toss or zerg army? They can just a move me!" I will reply "Well, back in the day everyone constantly QQ'd about the Terran race and basically blizzard just nerfed it into the ground, so don't bother with Terran.... just go play Toss or Zerg and simply macro a move  " Hasn't everyone been arguing since beta that there isn't enough in SC2 that rewards good micro? Is expecting you to micro really that big a deal? Well to be quiet honest, Iove the Terran race because of how micro intensive it is. But one has to draw a line between being able to achieve only so much with this micro whereas the other 2 races can pretty much A move and achieve the same thing. Don't even even try to make excuses how how toss and zerg armies require so much micro, it's a load of crap. Come and play Terran and you will realise just how much micro you essentially need to put in to achieve what another race can by simply a moving. Where is the fungal radius nerf? Why not increase sentry FF cost? At least toss will actually be more conservative of the FF's instead of just spamming a freaking line. Yeeaaaaah! boi spamming force fields takes SKILL! races are different. Yes Terran micro is the hardest, but their macro is far the easiest and the best. Stop whining. Um I think protoss macro is the easiest honestly... I play T and I disagree. With terran, when you build a marine, you have 30 seconds gametime to queue up another one without losing production time. With warpins, you have to hit a warp instantly when it comes up, or that is production time that you will never, ever get back. Also, supply drop means that T has a supply block buffer, even though it costs about 150 minerals. I think terran macro is somewhat easier, even though arguably less forgiving in some aspects. As a T and P I disagree. It seems like you need to hit exactly Protoss's warpgate cooldown to be optimize the production time, but in reality that is not the case. You don't need to wait for 5 warpgate to cool down to warp in 5 units at once, you can warp in one unit at a time. As long as you have enough money, just warp your units in. If you have more money, and your warpgates are still in cooldown, that just means that you don't have enough warpgates to optimize your income. If you want to be optimal then you would use as few as possible. But due to nature of Warpgates a) It isn't always possible to hit warpgate cycles, especially during the heat of battle b) just due to the nature of Warpgates and how they eliminate travel time it is quite advantageous to have more than you are capable of spending, an opportunity cost if you well Terran can do the exact same thing with Barracks, but there isn't a big enough insensitive. Terran can a) Queue up unit creation so they don't run into situations where they are overflowing as often and b) all their production can be queued and rally points be set without having to look away from their screen
But also because of the nature of Warpgates, you can warp in as much as your income allow. It doesn't really matter if you warpgate is off cooldown for 10sec, if you don't have money, you can't warp units in. With Terran, you can queue until your money hit zero, but with protoss, you can actually produce units until your money hit zero if you have enough warpgates (well technically terran can do it too, but I doubt people do it)
Now you talk about it, I guess queuing units is the best features for terran race. Imagine if you have to remember all different unit cooldown to produce units lolz.
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What's the new decal? I'm really super curious!
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On November 08 2011 13:33 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:54 ArcticFox wrote:On November 08 2011 12:39 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:33 ArcticFox wrote:On November 08 2011 12:26 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:23 ArcticFox wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:14 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:13 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:12 s3rp wrote:
[quote]
There are some players for example me that absolutely dispise the other races they don't play and don't want to switch ... then don't fucking complain about ur race mechanics Why not ? There's plenty wrong with Terran ( and the other 2 races as well ) that need change.... oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? You're assuming that all 3 races are being played optimally right now. I've yet to seen a single game where every mule was landed at exactly 50 energy, every inject was landed at exactly 25 energy, every chrono boost was used (the best protosses in the world seem to forget that they even have CB after the midgame has passed). And that's just the most basic of macro mechanics, let alone perfectly managed armies, the best possible mixes of everything figured out, the exact perfect timings for tech switches. The metagame is still very much in its infancy. Truth be told, the game still has a long way to go before we even know what optimal play looks like. That being said, in the current metagame, at the topmost level, Terran is the strongest. As play develops, Zerg could become the strongest, or Protoss could become the strongest. Or it could cycle between them. For God's sake, we still have 2 more expansions worth of units coming out on top of that. I'm ok with Terran being nerfed into the ground now, so long as when Protoss or Zerg owns 20/32 spots in GSL and Terran is only winning foreign tournaments, that Terran gets buffed and the other races get nerfed too, and nobody's on here saying, "Finally, game's balanced and takes skill, go to Hell Terrans!" Or, they could leave units alone and let the game get figured out more before they keep adjusting things as we get used to them. If they were actually balancing for the tip-top level of play, these are not the changes that would be getting made. I highly doubt that they were watching MC/HuK and the like play and go "You know what they really need? a 75/75 resource break on their upgrades." it's really only the fact that kiting is probably one of the most cost effective thing you can do in starcraft with your units and terran can do that the best True, though you could argue that both Z and P have "anti-kiting" mechanics in Force Fields and Fungal Growths, both of which are being subtly buffed in XvT by the Ghost nerf. I think I'm just tired of "balance by removal" instead of "balance by addition". Every time something is figured out to be "OP" for Terran in the current metagame, it's nerfed into the ground, instead of trying to figure out ways to give the other races just as cool and powerful stuff to do. Every patch is watering the game down, instead of making it a more exciting and dynamic experience. Again, I'll take whatever balance measures they give us and deal with it. I just hope HotS gives everyone cool things to work with instead of further watering down all the matchups. dude protoss has been nerfed to the ground since the beta.... it has just recently been buffed due to results lately KA removal, WG research time, pylon radius, VR nerfs, and Blink research time are the only things springing to mind as protoss nerfs since release. Only the KA removal was really a high level balance change, VR massing was for the low leagues, and everything else was something related to PvP. Terrans have had EMP nerfed twice, hellions nerfed, siege tanks nerfed twice, thors nerfed, medivacs nerfed, stim research time nerfed, reapers nerfed to the point of uselessness in anything but TvT, and if that wasn't bad enough, they slapped an extra 5 sec build time on the Barracks to make *every single terran build* slower. I'm not sure how you can even compare the two. The various nerfs have forced exactly 1 successful playstyle in both high level TvZ and TvP. To be fair, there's only 1 truly effective playstyle in high level ZvT and PvT as well. This leaves little room for innovation, and just routine repetition and execution of different openings that lead to the *exact same* mid and late games every time. Personally, I'd rather have 3 or 4 different playstyles that were all equally viable at the highest levels of play, and actually needing to scout and react to what your opponent is doing to make an extremely dynamic game that keeps players on their toes, rather than figuring out whether you need to make more Ghosts or Vikings in this particular TvP, or when you need to make your Ghosts and Vikings in TvZ. did you see that many different builds in broodwar? the game was a huge success and at the highest level, the same exact units compositions were used over and over, it is how you use ur units that makes the difference
But don't you think if it's possible to make more builds viable for everyone it would become more interesting ? I can't speak for BW since never really played it but in Wc3 you basically knew how the game will unfold while you're in the loading screen after years of playing. And it made the game kinda boring.
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On November 08 2011 13:42 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 13:33 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:54 ArcticFox wrote:On November 08 2011 12:39 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:33 ArcticFox wrote:On November 08 2011 12:26 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:23 ArcticFox wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:14 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:13 ReignFayth wrote:
[quote]
then don't fucking complain about ur race mechanics Why not ? There's plenty wrong with Terran ( and the other 2 races as well ) that need change.... oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? You're assuming that all 3 races are being played optimally right now. I've yet to seen a single game where every mule was landed at exactly 50 energy, every inject was landed at exactly 25 energy, every chrono boost was used (the best protosses in the world seem to forget that they even have CB after the midgame has passed). And that's just the most basic of macro mechanics, let alone perfectly managed armies, the best possible mixes of everything figured out, the exact perfect timings for tech switches. The metagame is still very much in its infancy. Truth be told, the game still has a long way to go before we even know what optimal play looks like. That being said, in the current metagame, at the topmost level, Terran is the strongest. As play develops, Zerg could become the strongest, or Protoss could become the strongest. Or it could cycle between them. For God's sake, we still have 2 more expansions worth of units coming out on top of that. I'm ok with Terran being nerfed into the ground now, so long as when Protoss or Zerg owns 20/32 spots in GSL and Terran is only winning foreign tournaments, that Terran gets buffed and the other races get nerfed too, and nobody's on here saying, "Finally, game's balanced and takes skill, go to Hell Terrans!" Or, they could leave units alone and let the game get figured out more before they keep adjusting things as we get used to them. If they were actually balancing for the tip-top level of play, these are not the changes that would be getting made. I highly doubt that they were watching MC/HuK and the like play and go "You know what they really need? a 75/75 resource break on their upgrades." it's really only the fact that kiting is probably one of the most cost effective thing you can do in starcraft with your units and terran can do that the best True, though you could argue that both Z and P have "anti-kiting" mechanics in Force Fields and Fungal Growths, both of which are being subtly buffed in XvT by the Ghost nerf. I think I'm just tired of "balance by removal" instead of "balance by addition". Every time something is figured out to be "OP" for Terran in the current metagame, it's nerfed into the ground, instead of trying to figure out ways to give the other races just as cool and powerful stuff to do. Every patch is watering the game down, instead of making it a more exciting and dynamic experience. Again, I'll take whatever balance measures they give us and deal with it. I just hope HotS gives everyone cool things to work with instead of further watering down all the matchups. dude protoss has been nerfed to the ground since the beta.... it has just recently been buffed due to results lately KA removal, WG research time, pylon radius, VR nerfs, and Blink research time are the only things springing to mind as protoss nerfs since release. Only the KA removal was really a high level balance change, VR massing was for the low leagues, and everything else was something related to PvP. Terrans have had EMP nerfed twice, hellions nerfed, siege tanks nerfed twice, thors nerfed, medivacs nerfed, stim research time nerfed, reapers nerfed to the point of uselessness in anything but TvT, and if that wasn't bad enough, they slapped an extra 5 sec build time on the Barracks to make *every single terran build* slower. I'm not sure how you can even compare the two. The various nerfs have forced exactly 1 successful playstyle in both high level TvZ and TvP. To be fair, there's only 1 truly effective playstyle in high level ZvT and PvT as well. This leaves little room for innovation, and just routine repetition and execution of different openings that lead to the *exact same* mid and late games every time. Personally, I'd rather have 3 or 4 different playstyles that were all equally viable at the highest levels of play, and actually needing to scout and react to what your opponent is doing to make an extremely dynamic game that keeps players on their toes, rather than figuring out whether you need to make more Ghosts or Vikings in this particular TvP, or when you need to make your Ghosts and Vikings in TvZ. did you see that many different builds in broodwar? the game was a huge success and at the highest level, the same exact units compositions were used over and over, it is how you use ur units that makes the difference But don't you think if it's possible to make more builds viable for everyone it would become more interesting ? I can't speak for BW since never really played it but in Wc3 you basically knew how the game will unfold while you're in the loading screen after years of playing. And it made the game kinda boring.
ok it's not about X build not working it's about metagame, it's about worse players following the build orders of better players, everybody is just trying to copy builds that are seen on GSL or other tournaments with top players, cuz you can acutally go mech TvP and win vs very good players if done properly
you have to note that it also takes a lot more practice to be able to play different style just as effectively
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On November 08 2011 13:45 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 13:42 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 13:33 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:54 ArcticFox wrote:On November 08 2011 12:39 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:33 ArcticFox wrote:On November 08 2011 12:26 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:23 ArcticFox wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:14 s3rp wrote:
[quote]
Why not ? There's plenty wrong with Terran ( and the other 2 races as well ) that need change....
oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? You're assuming that all 3 races are being played optimally right now. I've yet to seen a single game where every mule was landed at exactly 50 energy, every inject was landed at exactly 25 energy, every chrono boost was used (the best protosses in the world seem to forget that they even have CB after the midgame has passed). And that's just the most basic of macro mechanics, let alone perfectly managed armies, the best possible mixes of everything figured out, the exact perfect timings for tech switches. The metagame is still very much in its infancy. Truth be told, the game still has a long way to go before we even know what optimal play looks like. That being said, in the current metagame, at the topmost level, Terran is the strongest. As play develops, Zerg could become the strongest, or Protoss could become the strongest. Or it could cycle between them. For God's sake, we still have 2 more expansions worth of units coming out on top of that. I'm ok with Terran being nerfed into the ground now, so long as when Protoss or Zerg owns 20/32 spots in GSL and Terran is only winning foreign tournaments, that Terran gets buffed and the other races get nerfed too, and nobody's on here saying, "Finally, game's balanced and takes skill, go to Hell Terrans!" Or, they could leave units alone and let the game get figured out more before they keep adjusting things as we get used to them. If they were actually balancing for the tip-top level of play, these are not the changes that would be getting made. I highly doubt that they were watching MC/HuK and the like play and go "You know what they really need? a 75/75 resource break on their upgrades." it's really only the fact that kiting is probably one of the most cost effective thing you can do in starcraft with your units and terran can do that the best True, though you could argue that both Z and P have "anti-kiting" mechanics in Force Fields and Fungal Growths, both of which are being subtly buffed in XvT by the Ghost nerf. I think I'm just tired of "balance by removal" instead of "balance by addition". Every time something is figured out to be "OP" for Terran in the current metagame, it's nerfed into the ground, instead of trying to figure out ways to give the other races just as cool and powerful stuff to do. Every patch is watering the game down, instead of making it a more exciting and dynamic experience. Again, I'll take whatever balance measures they give us and deal with it. I just hope HotS gives everyone cool things to work with instead of further watering down all the matchups. dude protoss has been nerfed to the ground since the beta.... it has just recently been buffed due to results lately KA removal, WG research time, pylon radius, VR nerfs, and Blink research time are the only things springing to mind as protoss nerfs since release. Only the KA removal was really a high level balance change, VR massing was for the low leagues, and everything else was something related to PvP. Terrans have had EMP nerfed twice, hellions nerfed, siege tanks nerfed twice, thors nerfed, medivacs nerfed, stim research time nerfed, reapers nerfed to the point of uselessness in anything but TvT, and if that wasn't bad enough, they slapped an extra 5 sec build time on the Barracks to make *every single terran build* slower. I'm not sure how you can even compare the two. The various nerfs have forced exactly 1 successful playstyle in both high level TvZ and TvP. To be fair, there's only 1 truly effective playstyle in high level ZvT and PvT as well. This leaves little room for innovation, and just routine repetition and execution of different openings that lead to the *exact same* mid and late games every time. Personally, I'd rather have 3 or 4 different playstyles that were all equally viable at the highest levels of play, and actually needing to scout and react to what your opponent is doing to make an extremely dynamic game that keeps players on their toes, rather than figuring out whether you need to make more Ghosts or Vikings in this particular TvP, or when you need to make your Ghosts and Vikings in TvZ. did you see that many different builds in broodwar? the game was a huge success and at the highest level, the same exact units compositions were used over and over, it is how you use ur units that makes the difference But don't you think if it's possible to make more builds viable for everyone it would become more interesting ? I can't speak for BW since never really played it but in Wc3 you basically knew how the game will unfold while you're in the loading screen after years of playing. And it made the game kinda boring. ok it's not about X build not working it's about metagame, it's about worse players following the build orders of better players, everybody is just trying to copy builds that are seen on GSL or other tournaments with top players, cuz you can acutally go mech TvP and win vs very good players if done properly you have to note that it also takes a lot more practice to be able to play different style just as effectively
Yes you can go Mech but the question is . Is it as good as Bio when both are used to their max ? ( at least the max of the players capeabilities ) . The answers is , probably not or the absolute best players would play it at least occasionally Not to say it can't be strong but still inferior to well played Bio. I've played a ton of mech in TvP myself in earlier patches but at some point i just gave up and came to the conclusion it's not worth it at least for me. There's so much more that can go wrong with Mech then with Bio.
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On November 08 2011 10:59 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 10:50 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Epic! Also what's the Starcraft master portriat? it's blue-d out? On November 08 2011 10:46 s3rp wrote:
TvP is just not fun to play . What i hate most that only 1 unit comp is valid unless you cheese. There's basically 5 useful Terran Units in long macro games MMM/Ghosts/Vikings the rest is just gimmicky or near useless unless you push fast with it or get years of time.
Protoss has alot more variation if the chose to use it. Only 1 Techtree is kinda bad against Terran and thats Stargate. For Terran its 2 of 3 Techtrees that just suck against Toss It's still 5 units... Zealot Sentry Stalker and then Colossi HT. Not that I agree with that. Mech and Air do work in TvP, depending on the level of play and the map, etc. Mech and Air rarely work and are always worse then Bio once the opponent sees your unit composition. Mech and Air are way easier countered and are alot harder to replace if you start to lose units. They just are not more cost effecient then Bio even though they are more expensive.
Well, Mech works at the Korean GM level, so I'd think that means it's good enough. Seen even more rarely are air strategies, but I do it all the time and my high master protoss opponents have a very hard time against it ( I beat almost every single Master Protoss I play these days, literally... can't remember the last time I lost against a Protoss). These are also used at the GM level on KR though I don't know where to find the replays yet.
Also, the way you posted sounds like when you think about Mech and Air, it is as if you play the same way as Bio. But Mech and especially especially Air are almost completely different. Many things you do with Bio you would never do, and many things you don't do with bio, you do do.
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On November 08 2011 13:52 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 13:45 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 13:42 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 13:33 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:54 ArcticFox wrote:On November 08 2011 12:39 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:33 ArcticFox wrote:On November 08 2011 12:26 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:23 ArcticFox wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:
[quote]
oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? You're assuming that all 3 races are being played optimally right now. I've yet to seen a single game where every mule was landed at exactly 50 energy, every inject was landed at exactly 25 energy, every chrono boost was used (the best protosses in the world seem to forget that they even have CB after the midgame has passed). And that's just the most basic of macro mechanics, let alone perfectly managed armies, the best possible mixes of everything figured out, the exact perfect timings for tech switches. The metagame is still very much in its infancy. Truth be told, the game still has a long way to go before we even know what optimal play looks like. That being said, in the current metagame, at the topmost level, Terran is the strongest. As play develops, Zerg could become the strongest, or Protoss could become the strongest. Or it could cycle between them. For God's sake, we still have 2 more expansions worth of units coming out on top of that. I'm ok with Terran being nerfed into the ground now, so long as when Protoss or Zerg owns 20/32 spots in GSL and Terran is only winning foreign tournaments, that Terran gets buffed and the other races get nerfed too, and nobody's on here saying, "Finally, game's balanced and takes skill, go to Hell Terrans!" Or, they could leave units alone and let the game get figured out more before they keep adjusting things as we get used to them. If they were actually balancing for the tip-top level of play, these are not the changes that would be getting made. I highly doubt that they were watching MC/HuK and the like play and go "You know what they really need? a 75/75 resource break on their upgrades." it's really only the fact that kiting is probably one of the most cost effective thing you can do in starcraft with your units and terran can do that the best True, though you could argue that both Z and P have "anti-kiting" mechanics in Force Fields and Fungal Growths, both of which are being subtly buffed in XvT by the Ghost nerf. I think I'm just tired of "balance by removal" instead of "balance by addition". Every time something is figured out to be "OP" for Terran in the current metagame, it's nerfed into the ground, instead of trying to figure out ways to give the other races just as cool and powerful stuff to do. Every patch is watering the game down, instead of making it a more exciting and dynamic experience. Again, I'll take whatever balance measures they give us and deal with it. I just hope HotS gives everyone cool things to work with instead of further watering down all the matchups. dude protoss has been nerfed to the ground since the beta.... it has just recently been buffed due to results lately KA removal, WG research time, pylon radius, VR nerfs, and Blink research time are the only things springing to mind as protoss nerfs since release. Only the KA removal was really a high level balance change, VR massing was for the low leagues, and everything else was something related to PvP. Terrans have had EMP nerfed twice, hellions nerfed, siege tanks nerfed twice, thors nerfed, medivacs nerfed, stim research time nerfed, reapers nerfed to the point of uselessness in anything but TvT, and if that wasn't bad enough, they slapped an extra 5 sec build time on the Barracks to make *every single terran build* slower. I'm not sure how you can even compare the two. The various nerfs have forced exactly 1 successful playstyle in both high level TvZ and TvP. To be fair, there's only 1 truly effective playstyle in high level ZvT and PvT as well. This leaves little room for innovation, and just routine repetition and execution of different openings that lead to the *exact same* mid and late games every time. Personally, I'd rather have 3 or 4 different playstyles that were all equally viable at the highest levels of play, and actually needing to scout and react to what your opponent is doing to make an extremely dynamic game that keeps players on their toes, rather than figuring out whether you need to make more Ghosts or Vikings in this particular TvP, or when you need to make your Ghosts and Vikings in TvZ. did you see that many different builds in broodwar? the game was a huge success and at the highest level, the same exact units compositions were used over and over, it is how you use ur units that makes the difference But don't you think if it's possible to make more builds viable for everyone it would become more interesting ? I can't speak for BW since never really played it but in Wc3 you basically knew how the game will unfold while you're in the loading screen after years of playing. And it made the game kinda boring. ok it's not about X build not working it's about metagame, it's about worse players following the build orders of better players, everybody is just trying to copy builds that are seen on GSL or other tournaments with top players, cuz you can acutally go mech TvP and win vs very good players if done properly you have to note that it also takes a lot more practice to be able to play different style just as effectively Yes you can go Mech but the question is . Is it as good as Bio when both are used to their max ? ( at least the max of the players capeabilities ) . The answers is , probably not or the absolute best players would play it at least occasionally Not to say it can't be strong but still inferior to well played Bio. I've played a ton of mech in TvP myself in earlier patches but at some point i just gave up and came to the conclusion it's not worth it at least for me. There's so much more that can go wrong with Mech then with Bio.
It depends on the player, but yes. If the perfect player was playing, bio > mech. If you hate micro, then mech > bio for you. Goody plays mech way better than bio.
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Whats with the 2nd spoiler pic? SC2 Master icon?
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On November 08 2011 13:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 10:59 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 10:50 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Epic! Also what's the Starcraft master portriat? it's blue-d out? On November 08 2011 10:46 s3rp wrote:
TvP is just not fun to play . What i hate most that only 1 unit comp is valid unless you cheese. There's basically 5 useful Terran Units in long macro games MMM/Ghosts/Vikings the rest is just gimmicky or near useless unless you push fast with it or get years of time.
Protoss has alot more variation if the chose to use it. Only 1 Techtree is kinda bad against Terran and thats Stargate. For Terran its 2 of 3 Techtrees that just suck against Toss It's still 5 units... Zealot Sentry Stalker and then Colossi HT. Not that I agree with that. Mech and Air do work in TvP, depending on the level of play and the map, etc. Mech and Air rarely work and are always worse then Bio once the opponent sees your unit composition. Mech and Air are way easier countered and are alot harder to replace if you start to lose units. They just are not more cost effecient then Bio even though they are more expensive. Well, Mech works at the Korean GM level, so I'd think that means it's good enough. Seen even more rarely are air strategies, but I do it all the time and my high master protoss opponents have a very hard time against it ( I beat almost every single Master Protoss I play these days, literally... can't remember the last time I lost against a Protoss). These are also used at the GM level on KR though I don't know where to find the replays yet.
who uses mech in korean GM? can you guide me to some replays so i can learn their style/build order?
and no air terran definitely does not work at the gm level
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Mech is disgustingly slow and has absolutely no map control in TvP.
If there was spidermines and goliaths it'd be viable with this metagame but right now it only works on maps with very nearby and easily defendable 3rds like shakuras or xelnaga caverns.
You have to waste so many minerals by placing turrets absolutely everywhere so you don't die to an air switch or 1 warp prism flank or a blink into the main with obs vision. Protoss can expand absolutely everywhere and with good simcity your hellion drops won't do damage. If you start getting vikings he can just stop building colossus and go for zealot archon immortal, suddenly your 35 damage tanks can't kill anything and since you weren't getting many hellions because he was going colossus you won't be able to stop mass upgraded zealots.
Also taking a 4th is actually impossible, tanks cost too much supply to leave behind and don't do nearly enough damage to defend your expansions like you could in BW (again defensive spidermines, worth almost no supply and did massive damage).
Before SC2 Mech relied on those Hellion runbys that killed 40 probes and ended with a push 3 minutes later with a giant macro advantage. While they can still be done, its much harder due to the blue flame nerf and players like socke have figured out that to win vs goody mech you just gotta deny his hellion harass.
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On November 08 2011 08:29 Plexa wrote:
I hope this makes me a happy zealot
Very well put.
Double forge was already quite good in PvT, maybe with these upgrade buffs it will be worth it in PvZ, too?
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I just want PvT to be something different from 1 base expos into massing up tier unit balls into protoss loss.
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PanTerran Marine looks pretty sweet.
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goddamn, does this mean i have to disconnect from b.net to watch all the mlg orlando replays now? i'm only like 15% through them
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They are both hybrid casters and neither should hard counter the other by having a longer range anti caster ability. they should be the same range so it is purely the skil of the players which determines who's casters win the caster fight.
Except that ghosts cloak, are faster, have 100% spotting via scan, can be healed by medivacs, and are supported by a more mobile army.
Just think about it - when you see a TvP and the terran player gets off a bunch of good EMPs with little/no templar retaliation, you say to yourself 'well, no surprise there', but when the protoss player lands a bunch of feedbacks and/or good storms (without getting counter-EMPed!??!?!?! never happens), you go 'holy shit, what a boss!'
Right?
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On November 08 2011 12:13 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:56 NicolBolas wrote:On November 08 2011 11:42 Quotidian wrote:On November 08 2011 09:49 aksfjh wrote:
Can't believe the EMP nerf made it through as is. Wonder how many Terrans will flee during this patch... I'll just keep one-base all-ining. It's obviously what Blizzard wants terran players to do, considering that terran has to go for what is basically an early/midgame composition all game long and that factory units are worthless. Oh, and every protoss player with any brains will be doing double forge now, as if that style wasn't ridiculously strong already. Tvp has - since the damage modifier was added on tanks - been a garbage match up, now it's going to be worse. And from what I can tell from twiddling with the HOTS custom stuff, the expansion isn't going to make mech work there either. Fun I'm trying to understand something, so bear with me. You're upset that Terrans have to use "an early/midgame composition all game long," which is shorthand for "Barracks units." You lament that "factory units are worthless". OK. So what exactly is it that you want? It can't be to be able to go for MMM for a while, then transition into Mech. Because the Terran race doesn't work that way. Every Barracks you build for your MMM ball is a Factory you don't have. Every upgrade for your MMM ball is worthless for your eventual transition to Mech. That kind of transition works fine in tvt and tvz, why shouldn't it work in tvp?
Except that it doesn't. In TvT, you don't spend any real time with Bio. You build just enough to survive the early game and head straight to Tanks and Vikings.
Show nested quote +More than any other race, Terrans are hidebound to a single production structure. You have to pick your path and go with it. You can't go 4-rax and then transition into Mech, because those 4-rax and the associated upgrades are now worthless.
look at tvz, it's marine/siege tanks... two upgrade paths. Your dogma isn't actually based in reality.
Marine/Tank is not a transition. It's an augmentation. You had Marines for a while. Then you added some Tanks to them. You're still going Bio; you're just adding some extra units. It's like MMMGV; the Ghosts and the Vikings are augmentations, not replacements. They're and, not or. They're support units.
Also, Tanks in TvZ exist mainly to kill Banelings (though killing other stuff is good too). Because of that, they don't need upgrades, which is why unless the Zerg switches into Roaches, you won't see Terrans bother to upgrade them unless they have some spare gas lying around. The upgrades are still focused on Marines.
Mech is not the same thing as Marine/Tank. Mech is all Factory, all the time. Mech is what you do when you pump nothing but Factory units (and StarPort for augments). You know, TvT.
It's one of the reasons I have a huge problem taking all the protoss whine seriously, because I know that the code S terrans who are able to beat protoss players with lategame ghost play or whatever really are doing a lot of things almost to perfection, just in order to not simply die to the first colossus swipe.
At the same time, there are a lot fewer micro opportunities with Protoss. Which is generally why Korean Terrans keep winning; because their Protoss counterparts don't have anything that gets that much better than they already have.
Basically, Terrans have a higher skill ceiling, but it also means that Terran units are more cost-effective.
The reason I chose to play terran in the first place, is that I want that big, slow, meticulously positioned siege tank army. I want position to matter, I want good tech switching to matter. Tvp just isn't any of these things.
So, you really want a race based solely around a single unit. That's what you're asking for. Every match, every matchup, every player, you don't care: no choices. You want it all to come down to how much you use and shepherd that one unit.
I don't like that myself. I don't like the idea of centering an entire race, every matchup, around a single unit. The Immortal exists basically as a guarantee that one Tv* matchup would be devoid of Siege Tanks. It's a big, giant sign that says, "learn to play with something else". Much like Reavers in SC1 were a big, giant sign that said, "don't build Marines unless you like losing."
Now, however-much I may like the Immortal ensuring that one Tv* match isn't centered around STs, I also wouldn't have at the same time given the Protoss a powerful, mobile AoE death-machine that stacks with other ground units.
On November 08 2011 12:16 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:14 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:13 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:12 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:10 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:07 ZorBa.G wrote:OK, I must admit that I'm a sad Marine now. How come Terran doesn't get a powerful unit that we can simply a move with hardly any micro? Zergs get the broodlord, Toss gett the collossi... all in the meantime us Terrans keep getting nerfed and are expected to micro EVEN MORE! I used to do the 1 rax fe and 2 rax pressure fe builds against Toss..... I'm debating wether if I should now resort to doing the 1-1-1. If us Terrans keep spamming the 1-1-1 build, we'll just see more continous QQ from other races accusing us Terrans of being imba. I think we should just do the 1 rax fe builds now and hope to god we don't get nerfed even more. Hang on, what am I saying? No matter what Terran does, we will just keep getting nerfed lol. Screw it, I'm spamming 1-1-1 against every fkn toss now. I feel sorry for new players that are introduced to the game a couple years from now. It will be like, "Why the fuck do I have to micro so god damn much just to stay even with a toss or zerg army? They can just a move me!" I will reply "Well, back in the day everyone constantly QQ'd about the Terran race and basically blizzard just nerfed it into the ground, so don't bother with Terran.... just go play Toss or Zerg and simply macro a move " dude if you don't like how ur fucking race works, JUST SWITCH for fuck sake u're not even complaining about balance right now There are some players for example me that absolutely dispise the other races they don't play and don't want to switch ... then don't fucking complain about ur race mechanics Why not ? There's plenty wrong with Terran ( and the other 2 races as well ) that need change.... oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? Thats not what i meant ......... . In an ideal game every race had plenty of ways to play that don't put you behind immidiatly , sadly thats not that the case right now. I want freaking variation and not the same shit all the time or you'll probably lose.
SC1 was not exactly a bastion of variation of play. SC1 TvP is always Mech vs. Protoss. Always. I seem to recall an extensive period of time where every TvP game on every map was almost exactly the same. Terran walls in. Zealot approaches wall. Marines shoot at Zealot. Dragoon appears. SCVs repair. Tank comes out to push Dragoons back. Dragoon range gets done. Dragoons try to snipe Tank. Siege is done. Harass ends.
Every. Single. Game.
Once the game starts getting standardized, the "right" moves are figured out, and the number of viable options shrinks. The more play gets figured out, the less variation there will be. In SC1, the match with the most variation of play was TvZ.
On November 08 2011 12:28 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:22 Daralii wrote:On November 08 2011 12:21 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:19 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:14 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:13 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:12 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:10 ReignFayth wrote:
[quote]
dude if you don't like how ur fucking race works, JUST SWITCH
for fuck sake u're not even complaining about balance right now There are some players for example me that absolutely dispise the other races they don't play and don't want to switch ... then don't fucking complain about ur race mechanics Why not ? There's plenty wrong with Terran ( and the other 2 races as well ) that need change.... oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? Thats not what i meant ......... . In an ideal game every race had plenty of ways to play that don't put you behind immidiatly , sadly thats not that the case right now. I want freaking variation and not the same shit all the time or you'll probably lose. so you just want more... options? isn't terran like the race with the most options? Yeah TvP is so full of options thats why every game of TvP that goes beyond ~15 Minutes looks exactly the same unless somebody plays some funky shit . ... And it's not like that in every other MU? Well how many times do you see a zerg transition in a game? ling to bling to muta to infestor to corrupter to broodlords or maybe ultras. He can also change it up and get roaches and hydras instead if he wants.
That's what Zerg do! That's what happens when all your stuff comes out of the same place. You transition.
The downside of that is that the Zerg have fewer units and their units are much more situational. They transition because they have to. When a problem comes up, the primary Zerg answer is "build something else". When a problem comes up for Terrans, their answer is , "use what I've got to stop it."
That's just how the races work.
I think I'm just tired of "balance by removal" instead of "balance by addition". Every time something is figured out to be "OP" for Terran in the current metagame, it's nerfed into the ground, instead of trying to figure out ways to give the other races just as cool and powerful stuff to do.
Well, what's the alternative? You've got three races, X, Y and Z. Let's say you're looking at XvY, and you see that X can do something that's a little too powerful. Nerfing it will necessarily make it weaker, thus fixing the problem. Since the change was made to race X, the matchups affected will be XvX, XvY, and XvZ. So, in the worst-case scenario, where the change screws something up, you've broken 3 matchups. Probably only 2, since one is a mirror.
If instead of nerfing the problem, you instead give races Y and Z something to better deal with it, you've got a lot more liability. You're now affecting all matchups except XvX. In the worst-case scenario, you have broken almost every matchup. Plus, it's a lot harder to predict what a buff or new ability/unit will do once in player hands. It's easy to know what a nerf will accomplish.
The safest change is a nerf. It's the one where you know what you get, and will most likely solve the problem with the least blowback.
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On November 08 2011 08:31 mrRoflpwn wrote:
EMP change doesn't make a difference late game because the terran usually has like 6 ghosts anyway. At the same time- it is better than no change. Also like the small changes to the upgrade costs =] overall not a bad patch.
says the protoss player.
interesting patch
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On November 08 2011 11:56 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:42 Quotidian wrote:On November 08 2011 09:49 aksfjh wrote:
Can't believe the EMP nerf made it through as is. Wonder how many Terrans will flee during this patch... I'll just keep one-base all-ining. It's obviously what Blizzard wants terran players to do, considering that terran has to go for what is basically an early/midgame composition all game long and that factory units are worthless. Oh, and every protoss player with any brains will be doing double forge now, as if that style wasn't ridiculously strong already. Tvp has - since the damage modifier was added on tanks - been a garbage match up, now it's going to be worse. And from what I can tell from twiddling with the HOTS custom stuff, the expansion isn't going to make mech work there either. Fun I'm trying to understand something, so bear with me. You're upset that Terrans have to use "an early/midgame composition all game long," which is shorthand for "Barracks units." You lament that "factory units are worthless". OK. So what exactly is it that you want? It can't be to be able to go for MMM for a while, then transition into Mech. Because the Terran race doesn't work that way. Every Barracks you build for your MMM ball is a Factory you don't have. Every upgrade for your MMM ball is worthless for your eventual transition to Mech. More than any other race, Terrans are hidebound to a single production structure. You have to pick your path and go with it. You can't go 4-rax and then transition into Mech, because those 4-rax and the associated upgrades are now worthless. Which means that what you really want is to be able to use a lategame composition all game long. Why is that any better than "an early/midgame composition all game long?" As long as the composition works, who cares what Tier it is? It seems to me that the problem is the structure of the Terran race. At some point, you become committed to a tech path, and there's nothing you can do except continue to follow it to its inevitable conclusion. You are either going to go with that earlygame composition forever or the lategame one. It sounds to me like what Terrans need are more StarPort units that can enhance the effectiveness of their "early/midgame composition". Medivacs are a good start, but beefing up the Raven would be a great addendum late-game to give MMM a good kick in the pants.
Out of curiosity, why can't a terran open 4 rax, get 1/1 and mmm then build some extra factories, swap over the tech labs and use the naked rax for marines, which are always good (even more so with combat shield and 1/1 already researched) and transition into mech?
I know that 200m/200g has been "sunk" into those marines, but it's not exactly a huge investment and it's not like 4 marine making rax is a total loss either. In fact, now that I think about it, your gas gets immediately freed up while your marines keep you safe during your transition. Why isn't it viable?
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The safest change is a nerf. It's the one where you know what you get, and will most likely solve the problem with the least blowback.
Why does it always need to be the safest possible change every time
They have the PTR to test out patches. Why not try shit in there? ~~
Probably going to be switching to protoss now. Offraced as them sometimes, but now with dual forge being even stronger, and EMP being less effective, it's not worth it to try and beat toss with terran
Out of curiosity, why can't a terran open 4 rax, get 1/1 and mmm then build some extra factories, swap over the tech labs and use the naked rax for marines, which are always good (even more so with combat shield and 1/1 already researched) and transition into mech?
I know that 200m/200g has been "sunk" into those marines, but it's not exactly a huge investment and it's not like 4 marine making rax is a total loss either. In fact, now that I think about it, your gas gets immediately freed up while your marines keep you safe during your transition. Why isn't it viable?
Marines are really bad against toss if they aren't going mass immortal or mass Vray/Phoenix
colossi and stalkers are all really good at chipping away at marines from range, while chargelots with +armor dominate marines in straight up fights and archons can also dominate. Coincidentally, chargelots also destroy mech unless you have like 20 hellions, because tanks are terrible and expensive.
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EPT
