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On November 08 2011 12:51 s3rp wrote:
Cloaked Banshees are used in when you rush to them to kill workers . In actual armies they aren't used much sans 1-1-1. Vikings are support since the only real use is Anti-Air. On the ground they're pretty laughable.
But you don't see late game Banshees in any match up
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On November 08 2011 12:39 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:33 ArcticFox wrote:On November 08 2011 12:26 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:23 ArcticFox wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:14 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:13 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:12 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:10 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:07 ZorBa.G wrote:OK, I must admit that I'm a sad Marine now. How come Terran doesn't get a powerful unit that we can simply a move with hardly any micro? Zergs get the broodlord, Toss gett the collossi... all in the meantime us Terrans keep getting nerfed and are expected to micro EVEN MORE! I used to do the 1 rax fe and 2 rax pressure fe builds against Toss..... I'm debating wether if I should now resort to doing the 1-1-1. If us Terrans keep spamming the 1-1-1 build, we'll just see more continous QQ from other races accusing us Terrans of being imba. I think we should just do the 1 rax fe builds now and hope to god we don't get nerfed even more. Hang on, what am I saying? No matter what Terran does, we will just keep getting nerfed lol. Screw it, I'm spamming 1-1-1 against every fkn toss now. I feel sorry for new players that are introduced to the game a couple years from now. It will be like, "Why the fuck do I have to micro so god damn much just to stay even with a toss or zerg army? They can just a move me!" I will reply "Well, back in the day everyone constantly QQ'd about the Terran race and basically blizzard just nerfed it into the ground, so don't bother with Terran.... just go play Toss or Zerg and simply macro a move  " dude if you don't like how ur fucking race works, JUST SWITCH for fuck sake u're not even complaining about balance right now There are some players for example me that absolutely dispise the other races they don't play and don't want to switch ... then don't fucking complain about ur race mechanics Why not ? There's plenty wrong with Terran ( and the other 2 races as well ) that need change.... oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? You're assuming that all 3 races are being played optimally right now. I've yet to seen a single game where every mule was landed at exactly 50 energy, every inject was landed at exactly 25 energy, every chrono boost was used (the best protosses in the world seem to forget that they even have CB after the midgame has passed). And that's just the most basic of macro mechanics, let alone perfectly managed armies, the best possible mixes of everything figured out, the exact perfect timings for tech switches. The metagame is still very much in its infancy. Truth be told, the game still has a long way to go before we even know what optimal play looks like. That being said, in the current metagame, at the topmost level, Terran is the strongest. As play develops, Zerg could become the strongest, or Protoss could become the strongest. Or it could cycle between them. For God's sake, we still have 2 more expansions worth of units coming out on top of that. I'm ok with Terran being nerfed into the ground now, so long as when Protoss or Zerg owns 20/32 spots in GSL and Terran is only winning foreign tournaments, that Terran gets buffed and the other races get nerfed too, and nobody's on here saying, "Finally, game's balanced and takes skill, go to Hell Terrans!" Or, they could leave units alone and let the game get figured out more before they keep adjusting things as we get used to them. If they were actually balancing for the tip-top level of play, these are not the changes that would be getting made. I highly doubt that they were watching MC/HuK and the like play and go "You know what they really need? a 75/75 resource break on their upgrades." it's really only the fact that kiting is probably one of the most cost effective thing you can do in starcraft with your units and terran can do that the best True, though you could argue that both Z and P have "anti-kiting" mechanics in Force Fields and Fungal Growths, both of which are being subtly buffed in XvT by the Ghost nerf. I think I'm just tired of "balance by removal" instead of "balance by addition". Every time something is figured out to be "OP" for Terran in the current metagame, it's nerfed into the ground, instead of trying to figure out ways to give the other races just as cool and powerful stuff to do. Every patch is watering the game down, instead of making it a more exciting and dynamic experience. Again, I'll take whatever balance measures they give us and deal with it. I just hope HotS gives everyone cool things to work with instead of further watering down all the matchups. dude protoss has been nerfed to the ground since the beta.... it has just recently been buffed due to results lately
KA removal, WG research time, pylon radius, VR nerfs, and Blink research time are the only things springing to mind as protoss nerfs since release. Only the KA removal was really a high level balance change, VR massing was for the low leagues, and everything else was something related to PvP.
Terrans have had EMP nerfed twice, hellions nerfed, siege tanks nerfed twice, thors nerfed, medivacs nerfed, stim research time nerfed, reapers nerfed to the point of uselessness in anything but TvT, and if that wasn't bad enough, they slapped an extra 5 sec build time on the Barracks to make *every single terran build* slower. I'm not sure how you can even compare the two.
The various nerfs have forced exactly 1 successful playstyle in both high level TvZ and TvP. To be fair, there's only 1 truly effective playstyle in high level ZvT and PvT as well. This leaves little room for innovation, and just routine repetition and execution of different openings that lead to the *exact same* mid and late games every time.
Personally, I'd rather have 3 or 4 different playstyles that were all equally viable at the highest levels of play, and actually needing to scout and react to what your opponent is doing to make an extremely dynamic game that keeps players on their toes, rather than figuring out whether you need to make more Ghosts or Vikings in this particular TvP, or when you need to make your Ghosts and Vikings in TvZ.
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On November 08 2011 12:35 upperbound wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:30 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 08 2011 12:26 SoKHo wrote:On November 08 2011 12:22 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 08 2011 12:09 Daralii wrote:On November 08 2011 12:07 ZorBa.G wrote:OK, I must admit that I'm a sad Marine now. How come Terran doesn't get a powerful unit that we can simply a move with hardly any micro? Zergs get the broodlord, Toss gett the collossi... all in the meantime us Terrans keep getting nerfed and are expected to micro EVEN MORE! I used to do the 1 rax fe and 2 rax pressure fe builds against Toss..... I'm debating wether if I should now resort to doing the 1-1-1. If us Terrans keep spamming the 1-1-1 build, we'll just see more continous QQ from other races accusing us Terrans of being imba. I think we should just do the 1 rax fe builds now and hope to god we don't get nerfed even more. Hang on, what am I saying? No matter what Terran does, we will just keep getting nerfed lol. Screw it, I'm spamming 1-1-1 against every fkn toss now. I feel sorry for new players that are introduced to the game a couple years from now. It will be like, "Why the fuck do I have to micro so god damn much just to stay even with a toss or zerg army? They can just a move me!" I will reply "Well, back in the day everyone constantly QQ'd about the Terran race and basically blizzard just nerfed it into the ground, so don't bother with Terran.... just go play Toss or Zerg and simply macro a move " Hasn't everyone been arguing since beta that there isn't enough in SC2 that rewards good micro? Is expecting you to micro really that big a deal? Well to be quiet honest, Iove the Terran race because of how micro intensive it is. But one has to draw a line between being able to achieve only so much with this micro whereas the other 2 races can pretty much A move and achieve the same thing. Don't even even try to make excuses how how toss and zerg armies require so much micro, it's a load of crap. Come and play Terran and you will realise just how much micro you essentially need to put in to achieve what another race can by simply a moving. Where is the fungal radius nerf? Why not increase sentry FF cost? At least toss will actually be more conservative of the FF's instead of just spamming a freaking line. Yeeaaaaah! boi spamming force fields takes SKILL! races are different. Yes Terran micro is the hardest, but their macro is far the easiest and the best. Stop whining. Um I think protoss macro is the easiest honestly... I play T and I disagree. With terran, when you build a marine, you have 30 seconds gametime to queue up another one without losing production time. With warpins, you have to hit a warp instantly when it comes up, or that is production time that you will never, ever get back. Also, supply drop means that T has a supply block buffer, even though it costs about 150 minerals. I think terran macro is somewhat easier, even though arguably less forgiving in some aspects.
As a T and P I disagree. It seems like you need to hit exactly Protoss's warpgate cooldown to be optimize the production time, but in reality that is not the case. You don't need to wait for 5 warpgate to cool down to warp in 5 units at once, you can warp in one unit at a time. As long as you have enough money, just warp your units in. If you have more money, and your warpgates are still in cooldown, that just means that you don't have enough warpgates to optimize your income.
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I started up sc2 and didn't get a patch update, is it live on NA
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On November 08 2011 12:53 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:51 s3rp wrote:
Cloaked Banshees are used in when you rush to them to kill workers . In actual armies they aren't used much sans 1-1-1. Vikings are support since the only real use is Anti-Air. On the ground they're pretty laughable. But you don't see late game Banshees in any match up
Well they are used in TvT to break siege lines when you have the Air-control. In TvZ well if the Zerg goes Mutas they are useless since they don't hit air and die very fast to Mutas. They're actually pretty good if the Zerg doesn't though.
Now that doesn't mean that Banshees are a great late game unit. They aren't , in any matchup . But the other MU give you far more options then TvP.
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OK, just saying ... If I were had someone new to Starcraft that asked me which race he should play. I'd say;
Protoss for Bronze to Gold leauges. It's easier to play.
Zerg for Plat to Master Leauges. It's easier to play.
then swtich to Terran for Grandmaster. Because apparently Terran is OP @ that level.
Don't take that literally, but do you guys see what I'm getting at here?
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On November 08 2011 12:55 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:35 upperbound wrote:On November 08 2011 12:30 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 08 2011 12:26 SoKHo wrote:On November 08 2011 12:22 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 08 2011 12:09 Daralii wrote:On November 08 2011 12:07 ZorBa.G wrote:OK, I must admit that I'm a sad Marine now. How come Terran doesn't get a powerful unit that we can simply a move with hardly any micro? Zergs get the broodlord, Toss gett the collossi... all in the meantime us Terrans keep getting nerfed and are expected to micro EVEN MORE! I used to do the 1 rax fe and 2 rax pressure fe builds against Toss..... I'm debating wether if I should now resort to doing the 1-1-1. If us Terrans keep spamming the 1-1-1 build, we'll just see more continous QQ from other races accusing us Terrans of being imba. I think we should just do the 1 rax fe builds now and hope to god we don't get nerfed even more. Hang on, what am I saying? No matter what Terran does, we will just keep getting nerfed lol. Screw it, I'm spamming 1-1-1 against every fkn toss now. I feel sorry for new players that are introduced to the game a couple years from now. It will be like, "Why the fuck do I have to micro so god damn much just to stay even with a toss or zerg army? They can just a move me!" I will reply "Well, back in the day everyone constantly QQ'd about the Terran race and basically blizzard just nerfed it into the ground, so don't bother with Terran.... just go play Toss or Zerg and simply macro a move " Hasn't everyone been arguing since beta that there isn't enough in SC2 that rewards good micro? Is expecting you to micro really that big a deal? Well to be quiet honest, Iove the Terran race because of how micro intensive it is. But one has to draw a line between being able to achieve only so much with this micro whereas the other 2 races can pretty much A move and achieve the same thing. Don't even even try to make excuses how how toss and zerg armies require so much micro, it's a load of crap. Come and play Terran and you will realise just how much micro you essentially need to put in to achieve what another race can by simply a moving. Where is the fungal radius nerf? Why not increase sentry FF cost? At least toss will actually be more conservative of the FF's instead of just spamming a freaking line. Yeeaaaaah! boi spamming force fields takes SKILL! races are different. Yes Terran micro is the hardest, but their macro is far the easiest and the best. Stop whining. Um I think protoss macro is the easiest honestly... I play T and I disagree. With terran, when you build a marine, you have 30 seconds gametime to queue up another one without losing production time. With warpins, you have to hit a warp instantly when it comes up, or that is production time that you will never, ever get back. Also, supply drop means that T has a supply block buffer, even though it costs about 150 minerals. I think terran macro is somewhat easier, even though arguably less forgiving in some aspects. As a T and P I disagree. It seems like you need to hit exactly Protoss's warpgate cooldown to be optimize the production time, but in reality that is not the case. You don't need to wait for 5 warpgate to cool down to warp in 5 units at once, you can warp in one unit at a time. As long as you have enough money, just warp your units in. If you have more money, and your warpgates are still in cooldown, that just means that you don't have enough warpgates to optimize your income.
no matter how you warp, if you had your gateway of cd for 10 seconds and didn't warp a unit, you lost 10 seconds of production time. if your doing 5 gateways at a time its obviously worse (5x10 seconds), etc. In this exact area T is a bit easier because you can cue, but this alone doesnt mean that overall T macro is easier
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yea lets give a race that already goes fast upgrades also cheaper upgrades and see if it effects anything at all..barely going to be noticeable or not at all..maybe faster +1 zealot atk idk? Also i figure the emp nerf won't effect much when terran just blankets the protoss army in emps anyway, and the only thing is it will just make them use more emps which is hardly a problem since T gets a lot of ghost kind of mid/late game.
might help with MM + ghost early game atk or something.
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yeahh! time to start laddering again.
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I think Terran is going to be a race that excels in High level pro play but sucks at the diamond/Masters level. If you don't have pro caliber micro and multitasking then your Rines/Rauders won't be cost efficient enough to beat Toss/Zerg armies. Its just how Terran will be. I don't know what Blizzard can do besides making factory tech more viable. We'll see how the Battle Hellion and Warhound work-out.
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On November 08 2011 13:01 mlspmatt wrote:
I think Terran is going to be a race that excels in High level pro play but sucks at the diamond/Masters level. If you don't have pro caliber micro and multitasking then your Rines/Rauders won't be cost efficient enough to beat Toss/Zerg armies. Its just how Terran will be. I don't know what Blizzard can do besides making factory tech more viable. We'll see how the Battle Hellion and Warhound work-out.
factory tech wth..you have 1-1-1/MM + tank/hellion expand and probably more i am missing, but wth is wrong with factory tech..i mean you can even mech TvT (disadvantage till late game with it though i think)
also races should be balanced around highest level of play. sry bronze.
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On November 08 2011 12:55 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:35 upperbound wrote:On November 08 2011 12:30 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 08 2011 12:26 SoKHo wrote:On November 08 2011 12:22 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 08 2011 12:09 Daralii wrote:On November 08 2011 12:07 ZorBa.G wrote:OK, I must admit that I'm a sad Marine now. How come Terran doesn't get a powerful unit that we can simply a move with hardly any micro? Zergs get the broodlord, Toss gett the collossi... all in the meantime us Terrans keep getting nerfed and are expected to micro EVEN MORE! I used to do the 1 rax fe and 2 rax pressure fe builds against Toss..... I'm debating wether if I should now resort to doing the 1-1-1. If us Terrans keep spamming the 1-1-1 build, we'll just see more continous QQ from other races accusing us Terrans of being imba. I think we should just do the 1 rax fe builds now and hope to god we don't get nerfed even more. Hang on, what am I saying? No matter what Terran does, we will just keep getting nerfed lol. Screw it, I'm spamming 1-1-1 against every fkn toss now. I feel sorry for new players that are introduced to the game a couple years from now. It will be like, "Why the fuck do I have to micro so god damn much just to stay even with a toss or zerg army? They can just a move me!" I will reply "Well, back in the day everyone constantly QQ'd about the Terran race and basically blizzard just nerfed it into the ground, so don't bother with Terran.... just go play Toss or Zerg and simply macro a move " Hasn't everyone been arguing since beta that there isn't enough in SC2 that rewards good micro? Is expecting you to micro really that big a deal? Well to be quiet honest, Iove the Terran race because of how micro intensive it is. But one has to draw a line between being able to achieve only so much with this micro whereas the other 2 races can pretty much A move and achieve the same thing. Don't even even try to make excuses how how toss and zerg armies require so much micro, it's a load of crap. Come and play Terran and you will realise just how much micro you essentially need to put in to achieve what another race can by simply a moving. Where is the fungal radius nerf? Why not increase sentry FF cost? At least toss will actually be more conservative of the FF's instead of just spamming a freaking line. Yeeaaaaah! boi spamming force fields takes SKILL! races are different. Yes Terran micro is the hardest, but their macro is far the easiest and the best. Stop whining. Um I think protoss macro is the easiest honestly... I play T and I disagree. With terran, when you build a marine, you have 30 seconds gametime to queue up another one without losing production time. With warpins, you have to hit a warp instantly when it comes up, or that is production time that you will never, ever get back. Also, supply drop means that T has a supply block buffer, even though it costs about 150 minerals. I think terran macro is somewhat easier, even though arguably less forgiving in some aspects. As a T and P I disagree. It seems like you need to hit exactly Protoss's warpgate cooldown to be optimize the production time, but in reality that is not the case. You don't need to wait for 5 warpgate to cool down to warp in 5 units at once, you can warp in one unit at a time. As long as you have enough money, just warp your units in. If you have more money, and your warpgates are still in cooldown, that just means that you don't have enough warpgates to optimize your income.
If you want to be optimal then you would use as few as possible.
But due to nature of Warpgates a) It isn't always possible to hit warpgate cycles, especially during the heat of battle b) just due to the nature of Warpgates and how they eliminate travel time it is quite advantageous to have more than you are capable of spending, an opportunity cost if you well
Terran can do the exact same thing with Barracks, but there isn't a big enough insensitive. Terran can a) Queue up unit creation so they don't run into situations where they are overflowing as often and b) all their production can be queued and rally points be set without having to look away from their screen
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Im actually more concerned about infestors than T v P with the recent emp nerf..
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On November 08 2011 13:12 ThaSlayer wrote:
Im actually more concerned about infestors than T v P with the recent emp nerf..
This kind of... my TVP macro game winrate is already 0 so ghost nerf won't really do anything lol... but infestors are gonna be a bigger pain the in the ass, there already very very strong... I should go to KR ladder because apparently they havn't caught on there really.
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On November 08 2011 13:07 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:55 canikizu wrote:On November 08 2011 12:35 upperbound wrote:On November 08 2011 12:30 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 08 2011 12:26 SoKHo wrote:On November 08 2011 12:22 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 08 2011 12:09 Daralii wrote:On November 08 2011 12:07 ZorBa.G wrote:OK, I must admit that I'm a sad Marine now. How come Terran doesn't get a powerful unit that we can simply a move with hardly any micro? Zergs get the broodlord, Toss gett the collossi... all in the meantime us Terrans keep getting nerfed and are expected to micro EVEN MORE! I used to do the 1 rax fe and 2 rax pressure fe builds against Toss..... I'm debating wether if I should now resort to doing the 1-1-1. If us Terrans keep spamming the 1-1-1 build, we'll just see more continous QQ from other races accusing us Terrans of being imba. I think we should just do the 1 rax fe builds now and hope to god we don't get nerfed even more. Hang on, what am I saying? No matter what Terran does, we will just keep getting nerfed lol. Screw it, I'm spamming 1-1-1 against every fkn toss now. I feel sorry for new players that are introduced to the game a couple years from now. It will be like, "Why the fuck do I have to micro so god damn much just to stay even with a toss or zerg army? They can just a move me!" I will reply "Well, back in the day everyone constantly QQ'd about the Terran race and basically blizzard just nerfed it into the ground, so don't bother with Terran.... just go play Toss or Zerg and simply macro a move " Hasn't everyone been arguing since beta that there isn't enough in SC2 that rewards good micro? Is expecting you to micro really that big a deal? Well to be quiet honest, Iove the Terran race because of how micro intensive it is. But one has to draw a line between being able to achieve only so much with this micro whereas the other 2 races can pretty much A move and achieve the same thing. Don't even even try to make excuses how how toss and zerg armies require so much micro, it's a load of crap. Come and play Terran and you will realise just how much micro you essentially need to put in to achieve what another race can by simply a moving. Where is the fungal radius nerf? Why not increase sentry FF cost? At least toss will actually be more conservative of the FF's instead of just spamming a freaking line. Yeeaaaaah! boi spamming force fields takes SKILL! races are different. Yes Terran micro is the hardest, but their macro is far the easiest and the best. Stop whining. Um I think protoss macro is the easiest honestly... I play T and I disagree. With terran, when you build a marine, you have 30 seconds gametime to queue up another one without losing production time. With warpins, you have to hit a warp instantly when it comes up, or that is production time that you will never, ever get back. Also, supply drop means that T has a supply block buffer, even though it costs about 150 minerals. I think terran macro is somewhat easier, even though arguably less forgiving in some aspects. As a T and P I disagree. It seems like you need to hit exactly Protoss's warpgate cooldown to be optimize the production time, but in reality that is not the case. You don't need to wait for 5 warpgate to cool down to warp in 5 units at once, you can warp in one unit at a time. As long as you have enough money, just warp your units in. If you have more money, and your warpgates are still in cooldown, that just means that you don't have enough warpgates to optimize your income. If you want to be optimal then you would use as few as possible. But due to nature of Warpgates a) It isn't always possible to hit warpgate cycles, especially during the heat of battle b) just due to the nature of Warpgates and how they eliminate travel time it is quite advantageous to have more than you are capable of spending, an opportunity cost if you well Terran can do the exact same thing with Barracks, but there isn't a big enough insensitive. Terran can a) Queue up unit creation so they don't run into situations where they are overflowing as often and b) all their production can be queued and rally points be set without having to look away from their screen
I don't even think that it is necessary to produce non stop from warpgates. I don't even think that it does any good, but rather harms the protoss player. You can basically choose when to get your last warp in cycle, so that you're on par right before the engagement, leaving you more options to play reactionary. And time per cost, you can push out much more units worth of cost with one warpgate than with a barracks. And Terran buildings cost the most ressources, too (both minerals and gas). Every Barracks really does costs 200 minerals and some gas, not 150 mins like a warpgate. But who actually cares about that? Even more so that terran is mechanically unable to ever outproduce a protoss or a zerg in harvestercount...Ever! Yeah, but Mules are still op. So, at least terran units should be somewhat cost efficient.
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On November 08 2011 13:15 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 13:12 ThaSlayer wrote:
Im actually more concerned about infestors than T v P with the recent emp nerf.. This kind of... my TVP macro game winrate is already 0 so ghost nerf won't really do anything lol... but infestors are gonna be a bigger pain the in the ass, there already very very strong... I should go to KR ladder because apparently they havn't caught on there really.
Idk even before the nerf EMP was never that great against Infestors . I either build Ghosts for Snipe in TvZ or don't build them at all.
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On November 08 2011 13:17 Kwanny wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 13:07 Dommk wrote:On November 08 2011 12:55 canikizu wrote:On November 08 2011 12:35 upperbound wrote:On November 08 2011 12:30 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 08 2011 12:26 SoKHo wrote:On November 08 2011 12:22 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 08 2011 12:09 Daralii wrote:On November 08 2011 12:07 ZorBa.G wrote:OK, I must admit that I'm a sad Marine now. How come Terran doesn't get a powerful unit that we can simply a move with hardly any micro? Zergs get the broodlord, Toss gett the collossi... all in the meantime us Terrans keep getting nerfed and are expected to micro EVEN MORE! I used to do the 1 rax fe and 2 rax pressure fe builds against Toss..... I'm debating wether if I should now resort to doing the 1-1-1. If us Terrans keep spamming the 1-1-1 build, we'll just see more continous QQ from other races accusing us Terrans of being imba. I think we should just do the 1 rax fe builds now and hope to god we don't get nerfed even more. Hang on, what am I saying? No matter what Terran does, we will just keep getting nerfed lol. Screw it, I'm spamming 1-1-1 against every fkn toss now. I feel sorry for new players that are introduced to the game a couple years from now. It will be like, "Why the fuck do I have to micro so god damn much just to stay even with a toss or zerg army? They can just a move me!" I will reply "Well, back in the day everyone constantly QQ'd about the Terran race and basically blizzard just nerfed it into the ground, so don't bother with Terran.... just go play Toss or Zerg and simply macro a move " Hasn't everyone been arguing since beta that there isn't enough in SC2 that rewards good micro? Is expecting you to micro really that big a deal? Well to be quiet honest, Iove the Terran race because of how micro intensive it is. But one has to draw a line between being able to achieve only so much with this micro whereas the other 2 races can pretty much A move and achieve the same thing. Don't even even try to make excuses how how toss and zerg armies require so much micro, it's a load of crap. Come and play Terran and you will realise just how much micro you essentially need to put in to achieve what another race can by simply a moving. Where is the fungal radius nerf? Why not increase sentry FF cost? At least toss will actually be more conservative of the FF's instead of just spamming a freaking line. Yeeaaaaah! boi spamming force fields takes SKILL! races are different. Yes Terran micro is the hardest, but their macro is far the easiest and the best. Stop whining. Um I think protoss macro is the easiest honestly... I play T and I disagree. With terran, when you build a marine, you have 30 seconds gametime to queue up another one without losing production time. With warpins, you have to hit a warp instantly when it comes up, or that is production time that you will never, ever get back. Also, supply drop means that T has a supply block buffer, even though it costs about 150 minerals. I think terran macro is somewhat easier, even though arguably less forgiving in some aspects. As a T and P I disagree. It seems like you need to hit exactly Protoss's warpgate cooldown to be optimize the production time, but in reality that is not the case. You don't need to wait for 5 warpgate to cool down to warp in 5 units at once, you can warp in one unit at a time. As long as you have enough money, just warp your units in. If you have more money, and your warpgates are still in cooldown, that just means that you don't have enough warpgates to optimize your income. If you want to be optimal then you would use as few as possible. But due to nature of Warpgates a) It isn't always possible to hit warpgate cycles, especially during the heat of battle b) just due to the nature of Warpgates and how they eliminate travel time it is quite advantageous to have more than you are capable of spending, an opportunity cost if you well Terran can do the exact same thing with Barracks, but there isn't a big enough insensitive. Terran can a) Queue up unit creation so they don't run into situations where they are overflowing as often and b) all their production can be queued and rally points be set without having to look away from their screen I don't even think that it is necessary to produce non stop from warpgates. I don't even think that it does any good, but rather harms the protoss player. You can basically choose when to get your last warp in cycle, so that you're on par right before the engagement, leaving you more options to play reactionary. And time per cost, you can push out much more units worth of cost with one warpgate than with a barracks. And Terran buildings cost the most ressources, too (both minerals and gas). Every Barracks really does costs 200 minerals and some gas, not 150 mins like a warpgate. But who actually cares about that? Even more so that terran is mechanically unable to ever outproduce a protoss or a zerg in harvestercount...Ever! Yeah, but Mules are still op. So, at least terran units should be somewhat cost efficient.
of course it is necessary to produce non-stop, or as close to it as you can, else you standing army would be smaller because you were not producing! Means next warp in cycle will come later, and so on. One of my biggest mistakes is not producing optimally from WG. But good point on building output in terms of cost effeciency, people usually do not consider that. However, you should also remind yourself that T barracks units themselves are more cost efficient (marauder vs stalker, for example). Kinda balances things out a bit=P
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On November 08 2011 12:54 ArcticFox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:39 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:33 ArcticFox wrote:On November 08 2011 12:26 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:23 ArcticFox wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:14 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:13 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:12 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:10 ReignFayth wrote:
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dude if you don't like how ur fucking race works, JUST SWITCH
for fuck sake u're not even complaining about balance right now There are some players for example me that absolutely dispise the other races they don't play and don't want to switch ... then don't fucking complain about ur race mechanics Why not ? There's plenty wrong with Terran ( and the other 2 races as well ) that need change.... oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? You're assuming that all 3 races are being played optimally right now. I've yet to seen a single game where every mule was landed at exactly 50 energy, every inject was landed at exactly 25 energy, every chrono boost was used (the best protosses in the world seem to forget that they even have CB after the midgame has passed). And that's just the most basic of macro mechanics, let alone perfectly managed armies, the best possible mixes of everything figured out, the exact perfect timings for tech switches. The metagame is still very much in its infancy. Truth be told, the game still has a long way to go before we even know what optimal play looks like. That being said, in the current metagame, at the topmost level, Terran is the strongest. As play develops, Zerg could become the strongest, or Protoss could become the strongest. Or it could cycle between them. For God's sake, we still have 2 more expansions worth of units coming out on top of that. I'm ok with Terran being nerfed into the ground now, so long as when Protoss or Zerg owns 20/32 spots in GSL and Terran is only winning foreign tournaments, that Terran gets buffed and the other races get nerfed too, and nobody's on here saying, "Finally, game's balanced and takes skill, go to Hell Terrans!" Or, they could leave units alone and let the game get figured out more before they keep adjusting things as we get used to them. If they were actually balancing for the tip-top level of play, these are not the changes that would be getting made. I highly doubt that they were watching MC/HuK and the like play and go "You know what they really need? a 75/75 resource break on their upgrades." it's really only the fact that kiting is probably one of the most cost effective thing you can do in starcraft with your units and terran can do that the best True, though you could argue that both Z and P have "anti-kiting" mechanics in Force Fields and Fungal Growths, both of which are being subtly buffed in XvT by the Ghost nerf. I think I'm just tired of "balance by removal" instead of "balance by addition". Every time something is figured out to be "OP" for Terran in the current metagame, it's nerfed into the ground, instead of trying to figure out ways to give the other races just as cool and powerful stuff to do. Every patch is watering the game down, instead of making it a more exciting and dynamic experience. Again, I'll take whatever balance measures they give us and deal with it. I just hope HotS gives everyone cool things to work with instead of further watering down all the matchups. dude protoss has been nerfed to the ground since the beta.... it has just recently been buffed due to results lately KA removal, WG research time, pylon radius, VR nerfs, and Blink research time are the only things springing to mind as protoss nerfs since release. Only the KA removal was really a high level balance change, VR massing was for the low leagues, and everything else was something related to PvP. Terrans have had EMP nerfed twice, hellions nerfed, siege tanks nerfed twice, thors nerfed, medivacs nerfed, stim research time nerfed, reapers nerfed to the point of uselessness in anything but TvT, and if that wasn't bad enough, they slapped an extra 5 sec build time on the Barracks to make *every single terran build* slower. I'm not sure how you can even compare the two. The various nerfs have forced exactly 1 successful playstyle in both high level TvZ and TvP. To be fair, there's only 1 truly effective playstyle in high level ZvT and PvT as well. This leaves little room for innovation, and just routine repetition and execution of different openings that lead to the *exact same* mid and late games every time. Personally, I'd rather have 3 or 4 different playstyles that were all equally viable at the highest levels of play, and actually needing to scout and react to what your opponent is doing to make an extremely dynamic game that keeps players on their toes, rather than figuring out whether you need to make more Ghosts or Vikings in this particular TvP, or when you need to make your Ghosts and Vikings in TvZ.
did you see that many different builds in broodwar? the game was a huge success and at the highest level, the same exact units compositions were used over and over, it is how you use ur units that makes the difference
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I really hope that the Blizzcon avatar is for the people that actually went to blizzcon, not those who just bought the online ticket thing... No offense to those who did...
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On November 08 2011 13:38 peekn wrote:
I really hope that the Blizzcon avatar is for the people that actually went to blizzcon, not those who just bought the online ticket thing... No offense to those who did...
and why is that?
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EPT
