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On November 08 2011 12:23 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:22 Daralii wrote:On November 08 2011 12:21 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:19 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:14 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:13 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:12 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:10 ReignFayth wrote:
[quote]
dude if you don't like how ur fucking race works, JUST SWITCH
for fuck sake u're not even complaining about balance right now There are some players for example me that absolutely dispise the other races they don't play and don't want to switch ... then don't fucking complain about ur race mechanics Why not ? There's plenty wrong with Terran ( and the other 2 races as well ) that need change.... oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? Thats not what i meant ......... . In an ideal game every race had plenty of ways to play that don't put you behind immidiatly , sadly thats not that the case right now. I want freaking variation and not the same shit all the time or you'll probably lose. so you just want more... options? isn't terran like the race with the most options? Yeah TvP is so full of options thats why every game of TvP that goes beyond ~15 Minutes looks exactly the same unless somebody plays some funky shit . ... And it's not like that in every other MU? No its not in TvZ and TvT you can actually use (almost) your full arsenal and play completely differently from game to game.
TvZ: Hellion harass vs predominantly ling/bling/roach until you move out with a marine/tank force to establish map control. Zerg builds up mutas and infestors and you constantly drop to keep their econ in check. T eventually starts building either vikings or ghosts as Z gets to hive tech, at which point they use brood/ling/infestor.
TvT: Hellion/tank/viking, eventually transitioning into pure air, very rarely BCs.
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On November 08 2011 12:23 Zidane wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:21 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:19 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:14 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:13 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:12 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:10 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:07 ZorBa.G wrote:OK, I must admit that I'm a sad Marine now. How come Terran doesn't get a powerful unit that we can simply a move with hardly any micro? Zergs get the broodlord, Toss gett the collossi... all in the meantime us Terrans keep getting nerfed and are expected to micro EVEN MORE! I used to do the 1 rax fe and 2 rax pressure fe builds against Toss..... I'm debating wether if I should now resort to doing the 1-1-1. If us Terrans keep spamming the 1-1-1 build, we'll just see more continous QQ from other races accusing us Terrans of being imba. I think we should just do the 1 rax fe builds now and hope to god we don't get nerfed even more. Hang on, what am I saying? No matter what Terran does, we will just keep getting nerfed lol. Screw it, I'm spamming 1-1-1 against every fkn toss now. I feel sorry for new players that are introduced to the game a couple years from now. It will be like, "Why the fuck do I have to micro so god damn much just to stay even with a toss or zerg army? They can just a move me!" I will reply "Well, back in the day everyone constantly QQ'd about the Terran race and basically blizzard just nerfed it into the ground, so don't bother with Terran.... just go play Toss or Zerg and simply macro a move  " dude if you don't like how ur fucking race works, JUST SWITCH for fuck sake u're not even complaining about balance right now There are some players for example me that absolutely dispise the other races they don't play and don't want to switch ... then don't fucking complain about ur race mechanics Why not ? There's plenty wrong with Terran ( and the other 2 races as well ) that need change.... oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? Thats not what i meant ......... . In an ideal game every race had plenty of ways to play that don't put you behind immidiatly , sadly thats not that the case right now. I want freaking variation and not the same shit all the time or you'll probably lose. so you just want more... options? isn't terran like the race with the most options? Yeah TvP is so full of options thats why every game of TvP that goes beyond ~20 Minutes looks exactly the same . Every game of TvZ ~ 20 minutes looks exactly the same
Yeah, the terran will always have a lot of marines and tanks. Unless he is going thor/hellion/tank. Or if he is going pure bio with medivacs.
And zerg will always have mutalisks and zergling baneling while teching to hive. Unless they are going ling infestor. Or even roach.
The fact is if terran goes anything other than marine marauder as their core unit composition they are putting themselves at a severe disadvantage. There is only one viable way to play TvP as it stands.
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On November 08 2011 12:26 SoKHo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:22 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 08 2011 12:09 Daralii wrote:On November 08 2011 12:07 ZorBa.G wrote:OK, I must admit that I'm a sad Marine now. How come Terran doesn't get a powerful unit that we can simply a move with hardly any micro? Zergs get the broodlord, Toss gett the collossi... all in the meantime us Terrans keep getting nerfed and are expected to micro EVEN MORE! I used to do the 1 rax fe and 2 rax pressure fe builds against Toss..... I'm debating wether if I should now resort to doing the 1-1-1. If us Terrans keep spamming the 1-1-1 build, we'll just see more continous QQ from other races accusing us Terrans of being imba. I think we should just do the 1 rax fe builds now and hope to god we don't get nerfed even more. Hang on, what am I saying? No matter what Terran does, we will just keep getting nerfed lol. Screw it, I'm spamming 1-1-1 against every fkn toss now. I feel sorry for new players that are introduced to the game a couple years from now. It will be like, "Why the fuck do I have to micro so god damn much just to stay even with a toss or zerg army? They can just a move me!" I will reply "Well, back in the day everyone constantly QQ'd about the Terran race and basically blizzard just nerfed it into the ground, so don't bother with Terran.... just go play Toss or Zerg and simply macro a move " Hasn't everyone been arguing since beta that there isn't enough in SC2 that rewards good micro? Is expecting you to micro really that big a deal? Well to be quiet honest, Iove the Terran race because of how micro intensive it is. But one has to draw a line between being able to achieve only so much with this micro whereas the other 2 races can pretty much A move and achieve the same thing. Don't even even try to make excuses how how toss and zerg armies require so much micro, it's a load of crap. Come and play Terran and you will realise just how much micro you essentially need to put in to achieve what another race can by simply a moving. Where is the fungal radius nerf? Why not increase sentry FF cost? At least toss will actually be more conservative of the FF's instead of just spamming a freaking line. Yeeaaaaah! boi spamming force fields takes SKILL! races are different. Yes Terran micro is the hardest, but their macro is far the easiest and the best. Stop whining.
Um I think protoss macro is the easiest honestly...
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On November 08 2011 12:27 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:26 Quotidian wrote:On November 08 2011 12:22 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:21 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:19 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:14 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:13 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:12 s3rp wrote:
[quote]
There are some players for example me that absolutely dispise the other races they don't play and don't want to switch ... then don't fucking complain about ur race mechanics Why not ? There's plenty wrong with Terran ( and the other 2 races as well ) that need change.... oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? Thats not what i meant ......... . In an ideal game every race had plenty of ways to play that don't put you behind immidiatly , sadly thats not that the case right now. I want freaking variation and not the same shit all the time or you'll probably lose. so you just want more... options? isn't terran like the race with the most options? Yeah TvP is so full of options thats why every game of TvP that goes beyond ~15 Minutes looks exactly the same unless somebody plays some funky shit . yeah people generally wants to win, if you want to play a casual game don't play competitive SC2 games where did you get the idea that people don't want to win casual games as well? Just admit it, beyond some cute harass and openings, terran has less options in tvp than the other way around. It's a huge fucking bore you can win with all kind of stupid shit in casual games so it's not even an issue..
what do you consider casual? bronze-gold? Because playing mech, for instance, generally doesn't work in diamond, and considering the amount of shit talking in those games, they're not casual either. Just because I don't want to go pro, or even get to masters for that matter, that doesn't mean I just mess around with "stupid shit." I actually want to win - everybody does.
I like how you're not even trying to defend the whole "terran has the most options" bullcrap though..
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On November 08 2011 12:28 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:23 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:22 Daralii wrote:On November 08 2011 12:21 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:19 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:14 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:13 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:12 s3rp wrote:
[quote]
There are some players for example me that absolutely dispise the other races they don't play and don't want to switch ... then don't fucking complain about ur race mechanics Why not ? There's plenty wrong with Terran ( and the other 2 races as well ) that need change.... oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? Thats not what i meant ......... . In an ideal game every race had plenty of ways to play that don't put you behind immidiatly , sadly thats not that the case right now. I want freaking variation and not the same shit all the time or you'll probably lose. so you just want more... options? isn't terran like the race with the most options? Yeah TvP is so full of options thats why every game of TvP that goes beyond ~15 Minutes looks exactly the same unless somebody plays some funky shit . ... And it's not like that in every other MU? No its not in TvZ and TvT you can actually use (almost) your full arsenal and play completely differently from game to game. TvZ: Hellion harass vs predominantly ling/bling/roach until you move out with a marine/tank force to establish map control. Zerg builds up mutas and infestors and you constantly drop to keep their econ in check. T eventually starts building either vikings or ghosts as Z gets to hive tech, at which point they use brood/ling/infestor. TvT: Hellion/tank/viking, eventually transitioning into pure air, very rarely BCs.
You just you named standard play. There's plenty of strats that are actually pretty good without beeing standard. In TvP there's basically only standard play unless you cheese or don't care that much about winning.
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On November 08 2011 12:26 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:23 ArcticFox wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:14 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:13 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:12 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:10 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:07 ZorBa.G wrote:OK, I must admit that I'm a sad Marine now. How come Terran doesn't get a powerful unit that we can simply a move with hardly any micro? Zergs get the broodlord, Toss gett the collossi... all in the meantime us Terrans keep getting nerfed and are expected to micro EVEN MORE! I used to do the 1 rax fe and 2 rax pressure fe builds against Toss..... I'm debating wether if I should now resort to doing the 1-1-1. If us Terrans keep spamming the 1-1-1 build, we'll just see more continous QQ from other races accusing us Terrans of being imba. I think we should just do the 1 rax fe builds now and hope to god we don't get nerfed even more. Hang on, what am I saying? No matter what Terran does, we will just keep getting nerfed lol. Screw it, I'm spamming 1-1-1 against every fkn toss now. I feel sorry for new players that are introduced to the game a couple years from now. It will be like, "Why the fuck do I have to micro so god damn much just to stay even with a toss or zerg army? They can just a move me!" I will reply "Well, back in the day everyone constantly QQ'd about the Terran race and basically blizzard just nerfed it into the ground, so don't bother with Terran.... just go play Toss or Zerg and simply macro a move " dude if you don't like how ur fucking race works, JUST SWITCH for fuck sake u're not even complaining about balance right now There are some players for example me that absolutely dispise the other races they don't play and don't want to switch ... then don't fucking complain about ur race mechanics Why not ? There's plenty wrong with Terran ( and the other 2 races as well ) that need change.... oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? You're assuming that all 3 races are being played optimally right now. I've yet to seen a single game where every mule was landed at exactly 50 energy, every inject was landed at exactly 25 energy, every chrono boost was used (the best protosses in the world seem to forget that they even have CB after the midgame has passed). And that's just the most basic of macro mechanics, let alone perfectly managed armies, the best possible mixes of everything figured out, the exact perfect timings for tech switches. The metagame is still very much in its infancy. Truth be told, the game still has a long way to go before we even know what optimal play looks like. That being said, in the current metagame, at the topmost level, Terran is the strongest. As play develops, Zerg could become the strongest, or Protoss could become the strongest. Or it could cycle between them. For God's sake, we still have 2 more expansions worth of units coming out on top of that. I'm ok with Terran being nerfed into the ground now, so long as when Protoss or Zerg owns 20/32 spots in GSL and Terran is only winning foreign tournaments, that Terran gets buffed and the other races get nerfed too, and nobody's on here saying, "Finally, game's balanced and takes skill, go to Hell Terrans!" Or, they could leave units alone and let the game get figured out more before they keep adjusting things as we get used to them. If they were actually balancing for the tip-top level of play, these are not the changes that would be getting made. I highly doubt that they were watching MC/HuK and the like play and go "You know what they really need? a 75/75 resource break on their upgrades." it's really only the fact that kiting is probably one of the most cost effective thing you can do in starcraft with your units and terran can do that the best
True, though you could argue that both Z and P have "anti-kiting" mechanics in Force Fields and Fungal Growths, both of which are being subtly buffed in XvT by the Ghost nerf.
I think I'm just tired of "balance by removal" instead of "balance by addition". Every time something is figured out to be "OP" for Terran in the current metagame, it's nerfed into the ground, instead of trying to figure out ways to give the other races just as cool and powerful stuff to do. Every patch is watering the game down, instead of making it a more exciting and dynamic experience.
Again, I'll take whatever balance measures they give us and deal with it. I just hope HotS gives everyone cool things to work with instead of further watering down all the matchups.
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On November 08 2011 12:30 IlIlIlIl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:26 SoKHo wrote:On November 08 2011 12:22 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 08 2011 12:09 Daralii wrote:On November 08 2011 12:07 ZorBa.G wrote:OK, I must admit that I'm a sad Marine now. How come Terran doesn't get a powerful unit that we can simply a move with hardly any micro? Zergs get the broodlord, Toss gett the collossi... all in the meantime us Terrans keep getting nerfed and are expected to micro EVEN MORE! I used to do the 1 rax fe and 2 rax pressure fe builds against Toss..... I'm debating wether if I should now resort to doing the 1-1-1. If us Terrans keep spamming the 1-1-1 build, we'll just see more continous QQ from other races accusing us Terrans of being imba. I think we should just do the 1 rax fe builds now and hope to god we don't get nerfed even more. Hang on, what am I saying? No matter what Terran does, we will just keep getting nerfed lol. Screw it, I'm spamming 1-1-1 against every fkn toss now. I feel sorry for new players that are introduced to the game a couple years from now. It will be like, "Why the fuck do I have to micro so god damn much just to stay even with a toss or zerg army? They can just a move me!" I will reply "Well, back in the day everyone constantly QQ'd about the Terran race and basically blizzard just nerfed it into the ground, so don't bother with Terran.... just go play Toss or Zerg and simply macro a move " Hasn't everyone been arguing since beta that there isn't enough in SC2 that rewards good micro? Is expecting you to micro really that big a deal? Well to be quiet honest, Iove the Terran race because of how micro intensive it is. But one has to draw a line between being able to achieve only so much with this micro whereas the other 2 races can pretty much A move and achieve the same thing. Don't even even try to make excuses how how toss and zerg armies require so much micro, it's a load of crap. Come and play Terran and you will realise just how much micro you essentially need to put in to achieve what another race can by simply a moving. Where is the fungal radius nerf? Why not increase sentry FF cost? At least toss will actually be more conservative of the FF's instead of just spamming a freaking line. Yeeaaaaah! boi spamming force fields takes SKILL! races are different. Yes Terran micro is the hardest, but their macro is far the easiest and the best. Stop whining. Um I think protoss macro is the easiest honestly...
well i don't want to derail the thread too much, but terran is definitely the easiest to macro with. 1) mules (very forgiving) 2) supply drop (again newb friendly) 3) You can queue units (in case you forget), whereas protoss, it's harder to spend your money than terran 4) when you warp in with protoss you have to go to the location to warp in whereas as terran, you just do 3aaadddadddd. Im not saying toss is way harder, but it is definitely not easier than terran macro. I played both races at mid-high master and yes terran micro is harder, but terran has the easiest macro in the game
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On November 08 2011 12:30 IlIlIlIl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:26 SoKHo wrote:On November 08 2011 12:22 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 08 2011 12:09 Daralii wrote:On November 08 2011 12:07 ZorBa.G wrote:OK, I must admit that I'm a sad Marine now. How come Terran doesn't get a powerful unit that we can simply a move with hardly any micro? Zergs get the broodlord, Toss gett the collossi... all in the meantime us Terrans keep getting nerfed and are expected to micro EVEN MORE! I used to do the 1 rax fe and 2 rax pressure fe builds against Toss..... I'm debating wether if I should now resort to doing the 1-1-1. If us Terrans keep spamming the 1-1-1 build, we'll just see more continous QQ from other races accusing us Terrans of being imba. I think we should just do the 1 rax fe builds now and hope to god we don't get nerfed even more. Hang on, what am I saying? No matter what Terran does, we will just keep getting nerfed lol. Screw it, I'm spamming 1-1-1 against every fkn toss now. I feel sorry for new players that are introduced to the game a couple years from now. It will be like, "Why the fuck do I have to micro so god damn much just to stay even with a toss or zerg army? They can just a move me!" I will reply "Well, back in the day everyone constantly QQ'd about the Terran race and basically blizzard just nerfed it into the ground, so don't bother with Terran.... just go play Toss or Zerg and simply macro a move " Hasn't everyone been arguing since beta that there isn't enough in SC2 that rewards good micro? Is expecting you to micro really that big a deal? Well to be quiet honest, Iove the Terran race because of how micro intensive it is. But one has to draw a line between being able to achieve only so much with this micro whereas the other 2 races can pretty much A move and achieve the same thing. Don't even even try to make excuses how how toss and zerg armies require so much micro, it's a load of crap. Come and play Terran and you will realise just how much micro you essentially need to put in to achieve what another race can by simply a moving. Where is the fungal radius nerf? Why not increase sentry FF cost? At least toss will actually be more conservative of the FF's instead of just spamming a freaking line. Yeeaaaaah! boi spamming force fields takes SKILL! races are different. Yes Terran micro is the hardest, but their macro is far the easiest and the best. Stop whining. Um I think protoss macro is the easiest honestly...
I play T and I disagree. With terran, when you build a marine, you have 30 seconds gametime to queue up another one without losing production time. With warpins, you have to hit a warp instantly when it comes up, or that is production time that you will never, ever get back. Also, supply drop means that T has a supply block buffer, even though it costs about 150 minerals. I think terran macro is somewhat easier, even though arguably less forgiving in some aspects.
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On November 08 2011 12:05 iokke wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:51 IlIlIlIl wrote:
Ugh, I know blizzard needs to patch it for pro play but TvP is so hard when you don't have the mechanics of pros. People don't realize how hard it is to play Terran when Toss/Zerg can actually macro. Like the other guy said, there's just going to be less and less terrans in ladder. this is actually pretty silly, you're implying that T will be too weak, but it could just as well mean that people chose T before because it was too strong, and now that it may not be that strong anymore those who were seeking an advantage will switch. I doubt a lot of terrans will switch races because of this patch. Anywho, as P im obviously happy about this, upgrade costs aren't that much of a buff but still nice, while EMP change is huge I think. If its too much Bliz might change it back later, or maybe T will adapt fine, with extra ghosts for example. its amazing how hard it is to separate yourself from bias towards your race, as most post show (including my own). It would be cool to see a balance discussion threat were only people that play random post
I think that only some people actually switch. I think many people just stop playing the game, as the overall number of players in the ladder decreases. Terran used to be around 33%. Nowdays, it's not even 30%. And that's with protoss always being the most played race with around 35%.
European Grandmaster Terran 24%. European Master Terran 27.6%. European Diam 25%. Rest of the races around or above 33%.
NA Grandmaster Terran 28%. NA Master 28.2%. Na Diam 23.9%. Again other races both around or over 33% in every mentioned league.
Only exception is the Korean server, where there are actually percentages over 35%. But then again, there are only a little fraction of the amount of players playing than on NA/EU.
So yes, people must increasingly not like playing terran. May it be the hussle that if you macro without harass, you most likely lose vs other races. Or the constant patch nerfs. Or being contantly called op. The numbers are real, rest is my opinion. (I think it just means that there are basically less players able to compete at a certain level with terran than with other races)
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On November 08 2011 12:31 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:27 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:26 Quotidian wrote:On November 08 2011 12:22 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:21 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:19 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:14 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:13 ReignFayth wrote:
[quote]
then don't fucking complain about ur race mechanics Why not ? There's plenty wrong with Terran ( and the other 2 races as well ) that need change.... oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? Thats not what i meant ......... . In an ideal game every race had plenty of ways to play that don't put you behind immidiatly , sadly thats not that the case right now. I want freaking variation and not the same shit all the time or you'll probably lose. so you just want more... options? isn't terran like the race with the most options? Yeah TvP is so full of options thats why every game of TvP that goes beyond ~15 Minutes looks exactly the same unless somebody plays some funky shit . yeah people generally wants to win, if you want to play a casual game don't play competitive SC2 games where did you get the idea that people don't want to win casual games as well? Just admit it, beyond some cute harass and openings, terran has less options in tvp than the other way around. It's a huge fucking bore you can win with all kind of stupid shit in casual games so it's not even an issue.. what do you consider casual? bronze-gold? Because playing mech, for instance, generally doesn't work in diamond, and considering the amount of shit talking in those games, they're not casual either. Just because I don't want to go pro, or even get to masters for that matter, that doesn't mean I just mess around with "stupid shit." I actually want to win - everybody does. I like how you're not even trying to defend the whole "terran has the most options" bullcrap though..
oh so you think GOody would lose with mech vs diamond protosses?
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On November 08 2011 12:33 ArcticFox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:26 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:23 ArcticFox wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:14 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:13 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:12 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:10 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:07 ZorBa.G wrote:OK, I must admit that I'm a sad Marine now. How come Terran doesn't get a powerful unit that we can simply a move with hardly any micro? Zergs get the broodlord, Toss gett the collossi... all in the meantime us Terrans keep getting nerfed and are expected to micro EVEN MORE! I used to do the 1 rax fe and 2 rax pressure fe builds against Toss..... I'm debating wether if I should now resort to doing the 1-1-1. If us Terrans keep spamming the 1-1-1 build, we'll just see more continous QQ from other races accusing us Terrans of being imba. I think we should just do the 1 rax fe builds now and hope to god we don't get nerfed even more. Hang on, what am I saying? No matter what Terran does, we will just keep getting nerfed lol. Screw it, I'm spamming 1-1-1 against every fkn toss now. I feel sorry for new players that are introduced to the game a couple years from now. It will be like, "Why the fuck do I have to micro so god damn much just to stay even with a toss or zerg army? They can just a move me!" I will reply "Well, back in the day everyone constantly QQ'd about the Terran race and basically blizzard just nerfed it into the ground, so don't bother with Terran.... just go play Toss or Zerg and simply macro a move " dude if you don't like how ur fucking race works, JUST SWITCH for fuck sake u're not even complaining about balance right now There are some players for example me that absolutely dispise the other races they don't play and don't want to switch ... then don't fucking complain about ur race mechanics Why not ? There's plenty wrong with Terran ( and the other 2 races as well ) that need change.... oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? You're assuming that all 3 races are being played optimally right now. I've yet to seen a single game where every mule was landed at exactly 50 energy, every inject was landed at exactly 25 energy, every chrono boost was used (the best protosses in the world seem to forget that they even have CB after the midgame has passed). And that's just the most basic of macro mechanics, let alone perfectly managed armies, the best possible mixes of everything figured out, the exact perfect timings for tech switches. The metagame is still very much in its infancy. Truth be told, the game still has a long way to go before we even know what optimal play looks like. That being said, in the current metagame, at the topmost level, Terran is the strongest. As play develops, Zerg could become the strongest, or Protoss could become the strongest. Or it could cycle between them. For God's sake, we still have 2 more expansions worth of units coming out on top of that. I'm ok with Terran being nerfed into the ground now, so long as when Protoss or Zerg owns 20/32 spots in GSL and Terran is only winning foreign tournaments, that Terran gets buffed and the other races get nerfed too, and nobody's on here saying, "Finally, game's balanced and takes skill, go to Hell Terrans!" Or, they could leave units alone and let the game get figured out more before they keep adjusting things as we get used to them. If they were actually balancing for the tip-top level of play, these are not the changes that would be getting made. I highly doubt that they were watching MC/HuK and the like play and go "You know what they really need? a 75/75 resource break on their upgrades." it's really only the fact that kiting is probably one of the most cost effective thing you can do in starcraft with your units and terran can do that the best True, though you could argue that both Z and P have "anti-kiting" mechanics in Force Fields and Fungal Growths, both of which are being subtly buffed in XvT by the Ghost nerf. I think I'm just tired of "balance by removal" instead of "balance by addition". Every time something is figured out to be "OP" for Terran in the current metagame, it's nerfed into the ground, instead of trying to figure out ways to give the other races just as cool and powerful stuff to do. Every patch is watering the game down, instead of making it a more exciting and dynamic experience. Again, I'll take whatever balance measures they give us and deal with it. I just hope HotS gives everyone cool things to work with instead of further watering down all the matchups.
dude protoss has been nerfed to the ground since the beta.... it has just recently been buffed due to results lately
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On November 08 2011 12:29 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:23 Zidane wrote:On November 08 2011 12:21 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:19 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:14 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:13 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:12 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:10 ReignFayth wrote:
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dude if you don't like how ur fucking race works, JUST SWITCH
for fuck sake u're not even complaining about balance right now There are some players for example me that absolutely dispise the other races they don't play and don't want to switch ... then don't fucking complain about ur race mechanics Why not ? There's plenty wrong with Terran ( and the other 2 races as well ) that need change.... oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? Thats not what i meant ......... . In an ideal game every race had plenty of ways to play that don't put you behind immidiatly , sadly thats not that the case right now. I want freaking variation and not the same shit all the time or you'll probably lose. so you just want more... options? isn't terran like the race with the most options? Yeah TvP is so full of options thats why every game of TvP that goes beyond ~20 Minutes looks exactly the same . Every game of TvZ ~ 20 minutes looks exactly the same Yeah, the terran will always have a lot of marines and tanks. Unless he is going thor/hellion/tank. Or if he is going pure bio with medivacs. And zerg will always have mutalisks and zergling baneling while teching to hive. Unless they are going ling infestor. Or even roach. The fact is if terran goes anything other than marine marauder as their core unit composition they are putting themselves at a severe disadvantage. There is only one viable way to play TvP as it stands.
Do you think Protoss has options in the match up?
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On November 08 2011 12:39 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:29 Horseballs wrote:On November 08 2011 12:23 Zidane wrote:On November 08 2011 12:21 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:19 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:14 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:13 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:12 s3rp wrote:
[quote]
There are some players for example me that absolutely dispise the other races they don't play and don't want to switch ... then don't fucking complain about ur race mechanics Why not ? There's plenty wrong with Terran ( and the other 2 races as well ) that need change.... oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? Thats not what i meant ......... . In an ideal game every race had plenty of ways to play that don't put you behind immidiatly , sadly thats not that the case right now. I want freaking variation and not the same shit all the time or you'll probably lose. so you just want more... options? isn't terran like the race with the most options? Yeah TvP is so full of options thats why every game of TvP that goes beyond ~20 Minutes looks exactly the same . Every game of TvZ ~ 20 minutes looks exactly the same Yeah, the terran will always have a lot of marines and tanks. Unless he is going thor/hellion/tank. Or if he is going pure bio with medivacs. And zerg will always have mutalisks and zergling baneling while teching to hive. Unless they are going ling infestor. Or even roach. The fact is if terran goes anything other than marine marauder as their core unit composition they are putting themselves at a severe disadvantage. There is only one viable way to play TvP as it stands. Do you think Protoss has options in the match up?
Well they can build just about anything besides big stargate tech. Although Protoss in general is pretty dull when it comes down to variation it's allways mass gateway + something in every MU .
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On November 08 2011 12:42 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:39 Dommk wrote:On November 08 2011 12:29 Horseballs wrote:On November 08 2011 12:23 Zidane wrote:On November 08 2011 12:21 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:19 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:14 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:13 ReignFayth wrote:
[quote]
then don't fucking complain about ur race mechanics Why not ? There's plenty wrong with Terran ( and the other 2 races as well ) that need change.... oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? Thats not what i meant ......... . In an ideal game every race had plenty of ways to play that don't put you behind immidiatly , sadly thats not that the case right now. I want freaking variation and not the same shit all the time or you'll probably lose. so you just want more... options? isn't terran like the race with the most options? Yeah TvP is so full of options thats why every game of TvP that goes beyond ~20 Minutes looks exactly the same . Every game of TvZ ~ 20 minutes looks exactly the same Yeah, the terran will always have a lot of marines and tanks. Unless he is going thor/hellion/tank. Or if he is going pure bio with medivacs. And zerg will always have mutalisks and zergling baneling while teching to hive. Unless they are going ling infestor. Or even roach. The fact is if terran goes anything other than marine marauder as their core unit composition they are putting themselves at a severe disadvantage. There is only one viable way to play TvP as it stands. Do you think Protoss has options in the match up? Well they can build just about anything besides big stargate tech. Although Protoss in general is pretty dull when it comes down to variation it's allways mass gateway + something.
Well, Terran in the same way can build everything sans Factory units--unless they are doing an all-in on one base. Then it is more like "build all the things!"
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On November 08 2011 12:44 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:42 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:39 Dommk wrote:On November 08 2011 12:29 Horseballs wrote:On November 08 2011 12:23 Zidane wrote:On November 08 2011 12:21 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:19 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:14 s3rp wrote:
[quote]
Why not ? There's plenty wrong with Terran ( and the other 2 races as well ) that need change....
oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? Thats not what i meant ......... . In an ideal game every race had plenty of ways to play that don't put you behind immidiatly , sadly thats not that the case right now. I want freaking variation and not the same shit all the time or you'll probably lose. so you just want more... options? isn't terran like the race with the most options? Yeah TvP is so full of options thats why every game of TvP that goes beyond ~20 Minutes looks exactly the same . Every game of TvZ ~ 20 minutes looks exactly the same Yeah, the terran will always have a lot of marines and tanks. Unless he is going thor/hellion/tank. Or if he is going pure bio with medivacs. And zerg will always have mutalisks and zergling baneling while teching to hive. Unless they are going ling infestor. Or even roach. The fact is if terran goes anything other than marine marauder as their core unit composition they are putting themselves at a severe disadvantage. There is only one viable way to play TvP as it stands. Do you think Protoss has options in the match up? Well they can build just about anything besides big stargate tech. Although Protoss in general is pretty dull when it comes down to variation it's allways mass gateway + something. Well, Terran in the same way can build everything sans Factory units--unless they are doing an all-in on one base. Then it is more like "build all the things!"
Also half the Starport units are basically useless. Every unit with only build with a techlab from Fax/Starports has extremely limited use in TvP . Thats basically half the units Terran has and you add Reapers to that.
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On November 08 2011 12:28 Dakure wrote:Show nested quote +Which means that what you really want is to be able to use a lategame composition all game long. Why is that any better than "an early/midgame composition all game long?" As long as the composition works, who cares what Tier it is? notice how I didn't use the word "tier." Isn't it really the same thing?
No, they're really not. I'd say the only race that fits the whole tier philosophy is zerg anyway. Saying something is an "early game composition" is much more nuanced. Fast hellions on one base in tvz is an early game composition, but it is also "tier 2."
Show nested quote +mmm + v/g has always felt to me like an army that is not actually supposed to win in a 200 vs 200 fight against protoss, and yet it is somehow the ONLY way to play lategame tvp. It's a flimsy, really shitty army that'll die instantly if you make one small mistake. Terran isn't Zerg. Don't even try to talk about flimsy or dying with one mistake, brah; you're out of your league.
What is that even supposed to mean? "Brah" ? ..seriously, get off the internet.
Are you saying that a marine/marauder army isn't a bunch of relatively low hitpoint, usually balled up units that can die very, very quickly to the massive lategame aoe that protoss has at their disposal? And what other race's army also generally fits that description?
Show nested quote +It's one of the reasons I have a huge problem taking all the protoss whine seriously, because I know that the code S terrans who are able to beat protoss players with lategame ghost play or whatever really are doing a lot of things almost to perfection, just in order to not simply die to the first colossus swipe. I honestly think this is how most players feel regarding their race.
except, as others have noted, the other races have way more a-move friendly lategame armies than terran does.
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On November 08 2011 12:27 IlIlIlIl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:05 iokke wrote:On November 08 2011 11:51 IlIlIlIl wrote:
Ugh, I know blizzard needs to patch it for pro play but TvP is so hard when you don't have the mechanics of pros. People don't realize how hard it is to play Terran when Toss/Zerg can actually macro. Like the other guy said, there's just going to be less and less terrans in ladder. + Show Spoiler +this is actually pretty silly, you're implying that T will be too weak, but it could just as well mean that people chose T before because it was too strong, and now that it may not be that strong anymore those who were seeking an advantage will switch. I doubt a lot of terrans will switch races because of this patch. Anywho, as P im obviously happy about this, upgrade costs aren't that much of a buff but still nice, while EMP change is huge I think. If its too much Bliz might change it back later, or maybe T will adapt fine, with extra ghosts for example. its amazing how hard it is to separate yourself from bias towards your race, as most post show (including my own). It would be cool to see a balance discussion threat were only people that play random post No, I don't think terran is weak at all. I think it's probably the strongest race when played properly. Terran requires a lot of micro and multitasking and people below masters (maybe even in masters) do not have these mechanics. Compare that to protoss or zerg where microing/multitasking is somewhat less important and I can see why terran has been declining in popularity over the last few seasons. Once 1 base all ins stop working and Zergs/Protoss can keep up in macro, Terran becomes a way harder race than the other two because you NEED micro or you will flat out die. Don't split your marines correctly vs. Banes? They all die. Can't kite 3/3 zealots with charge while emp'ing army and target firing colossi with vikings? You die. Accidentally keep marines or bio clumped up? Fungal/Storm kills everything. As terran you live and die by your micro, you can't just straight up macro and amove.
As far as T's switching, same logic applies:
#1 possible reason - it is too hard to play at certain levels
#2 possible reason - it was (relatively) easier to play than it should have been, now its where it should be, but those T's that preferred the race because it used to be easier will go somewhere else. (btw, I'm not saying this is the case, but its possible)
I kinda agree with the rest of the post, but you could make same argument for other races as well, even if up to a certain point. At lower level, early game, P might lose a ton to kiting Terran because his positioning was bad, or ff were not as good, drops can do more damage etc. I for example went on a huge lose streak when I reached levels where Terrans start to kite, and again when T began kiting better than before (diamond - low masters, which isnt that high up). I still find T hard to deal with. Also i dont think kiting and stutter step is particularly difficult tbh. With that said, im certain that at some levels T is harder than P, but im also certain that reverse is true as well. In the end though, Balancing will be done for pro level anyway, so the point is kinda moot
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On November 08 2011 12:45 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:44 Dommk wrote:On November 08 2011 12:42 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:39 Dommk wrote:On November 08 2011 12:29 Horseballs wrote:On November 08 2011 12:23 Zidane wrote:On November 08 2011 12:21 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:19 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:
[quote]
oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? Thats not what i meant ......... . In an ideal game every race had plenty of ways to play that don't put you behind immidiatly , sadly thats not that the case right now. I want freaking variation and not the same shit all the time or you'll probably lose. so you just want more... options? isn't terran like the race with the most options? Yeah TvP is so full of options thats why every game of TvP that goes beyond ~20 Minutes looks exactly the same . Every game of TvZ ~ 20 minutes looks exactly the same Yeah, the terran will always have a lot of marines and tanks. Unless he is going thor/hellion/tank. Or if he is going pure bio with medivacs. And zerg will always have mutalisks and zergling baneling while teching to hive. Unless they are going ling infestor. Or even roach. The fact is if terran goes anything other than marine marauder as their core unit composition they are putting themselves at a severe disadvantage. There is only one viable way to play TvP as it stands. Do you think Protoss has options in the match up? Well they can build just about anything besides big stargate tech. Although Protoss in general is pretty dull when it comes down to variation it's allways mass gateway + something. Well, Terran in the same way can build everything sans Factory units--unless they are doing an all-in on one base. Then it is more like "build all the things!" Also sans Starport units that aren't support.
You see Cloaked Banshees/Ravens/Viking quite often in PvT. Battlecruisers are an oddity, but it is not like they are a bad unit, there is just no real need to get them
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Cloaked Banshees are used in when you rush to them to kill workers . In actual armies they aren't used much sans 1-1-1. Vikings are support ( at least in my mind ) since the only real use is Anti-Air. On the ground they're pretty laughable. You need to build them to support your Bio against Colossi and for nothing else.
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On November 08 2011 12:37 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:31 Quotidian wrote:On November 08 2011 12:27 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:26 Quotidian wrote:On November 08 2011 12:22 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:21 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:19 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 12:16 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 12:14 s3rp wrote:
[quote]
Why not ? There's plenty wrong with Terran ( and the other 2 races as well ) that need change....
oh so you think it's wrong that terran can be the strongest race when used optimally? you think the race should be dumbed down for stupider players to feel better about themselves? Thats not what i meant ......... . In an ideal game every race had plenty of ways to play that don't put you behind immidiatly , sadly thats not that the case right now. I want freaking variation and not the same shit all the time or you'll probably lose. so you just want more... options? isn't terran like the race with the most options? Yeah TvP is so full of options thats why every game of TvP that goes beyond ~15 Minutes looks exactly the same unless somebody plays some funky shit . yeah people generally wants to win, if you want to play a casual game don't play competitive SC2 games where did you get the idea that people don't want to win casual games as well? Just admit it, beyond some cute harass and openings, terran has less options in tvp than the other way around. It's a huge fucking bore you can win with all kind of stupid shit in casual games so it's not even an issue.. what do you consider casual? bronze-gold? Because playing mech, for instance, generally doesn't work in diamond, and considering the amount of shit talking in those games, they're not casual either. Just because I don't want to go pro, or even get to masters for that matter, that doesn't mean I just mess around with "stupid shit." I actually want to win - everybody does. I like how you're not even trying to defend the whole "terran has the most options" bullcrap though.. oh so you think GOody would lose with mech vs diamond protosses?
Why you gotta troll?
Of course Goody would win. He's a much more practiced player with better macro, micro and decision-making. He'd probably win with the early banshee harass or hellion drop or marauder bunker rush or whatever, even before getting to the mech phase of the game. The playing field isn't even close to be leveled, so you're just trying to make a dumb, simple point that isn't relative to anything at all.
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EPT
