EPT1.4.2 Patch Live - Page 23
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Deckkie
Netherlands1595 Posts
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yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On November 08 2011 20:16 Heavenly wrote: 10 full energy sentries is also 500/1000. Try getting some medivacs, picking them up, and moving away, since all those forcefields have just wasted 1000 gas worth of stuff from the protoss side? That's like saying 10 medivacs are 1000 wasted gas, because you could just opt to not stim. Medivac lifting is a reasonable tactic in small-scale encounters, it would require completely ridiculous APM to do it with a major army, and you'd lose half those loaded medivacs to stalkers anyway. I think EMP is bad for the matchup, but it needs to exist as a counter to casters. I don't understand why you're being so defensive, as if I was calling Protoss a mindless 1a race or something. Everyone on SotG also said that they find this change odd, and would have preferred a shield damage reduction instead. | ||
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Avan
Brazil121 Posts
On November 08 2011 08:35 Deleuze wrote: Hopefully TvP will be a little more balanced now, though we'll have to see whether the upgrades buff burns my zerg ass... Don't worry. You can always mass mutas. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On November 08 2011 09:13 Minarva wrote: I find it the other way around. Latest statistics show that the MU is around 53.9% in favour of terran. Yes this is, indeed, favourable for terran, but it is not a statistically significant figure to claim imbalance or "heavily in favour of the terran" as you so boldly claim. Tanks clearly needed toning down from where they were, so I won't comment on that. Personally I think protoss needed a little help, and I thought EMP was too strong - but I also feel colossus and storm are too strong too, as well as the marauder - generally I feel the matchup doesn't FEEL right. Essentially the terran has to go bio and its a case of MMMVG vs deathballs or zealot archon attacks. HoTS should bring some nice variety to the mix with the potential of mech. If Protoss want to whine about their win rates, they should be directing it at Zerg by your logic, statistically ZvP is the most imbalanced matchup right now at around 56.3%. But you don't because you have a sense that this is just the metagame, or the small sample size. Please don't selectively pick and choose when you use statistics, I don't think its contributory to discussion. I just wanted to comment on the bold part. You're wrong here, mainly because I think you're using the term "statistically significant" inappropriately. If you look at the latest graphs you'll see there are error bars on them. The error bars for PvT do not overlap, therefore the difference is statistically significant assuming the error bars are accurate. It may or may not be a huge difference, but it is a stastically significant difference. And yes, theres a statistically significant difference in the PvZ matchup as well; but I think the Terran matchup gets most of the criticism because the ZvP statistics are generally in favour of Terran as well. Which means Terran is favoured in both matchups, hence a more likely source of imbalance. And for the record I reckon the PvZ numbers are due to the problems Protoss has with mutas. As far as the patch goes this couldn't have come at a better time for me. I ususally go with a rather standard robo-bay-colossus deathball build. However last night I played a PvT where I scouted my opponent blindly going with a whole load of Vikings. So rather than walking into it I decided to give High Templars a shot and just use my robo for immortals, getting charge (was worried about a conc push after I scouted tech rax early) and later adding on double forge. Absolutely destroyed him, I think I've fallen in love with High Templar and this EMP nerf just makes them better; couple that with double forge cheaper upgrades and zealots and I think I've got my new vT mid-game composition. | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On November 08 2011 20:23 yeint wrote: That's like saying 10 medivacs are 1000 wasted gas, because you could just opt to not stim. Medivac lifting is a reasonable tactic in small-scale encounters, it would require completely ridiculous APM to do it with a major army, and you'd lose half those loaded medivacs to stalkers anyway. I think EMP is bad for the matchup, but it needs to exist as a counter to casters. I don't understand why you're being so defensive, as if I was calling Protoss a mindless 1a race or something. Everyone on SotG also said that they find this change odd, and would have preferred a shield damage reduction instead. It's not like saying that, because I offered a way in which you can make those sentries wasted gas whereas medivacs are never wasted gas. You are also assuming you are at a point where somehow stalkers can blink forward into your stimmed army to be able to snipe out those medivacs without a ton of stalkers also being destroyed. If they have 10 sentries and enough stalkers to do that, you should have enough EMPs do deal the number of sentries. If not, the protoss should probably win that engagement anyway, especially if his micro is good enough for proper blinking + forcefields + positioning of his sentries to avoid clumping against EMP (very difficult with the way SC2 unit pathing works) compared to your inability to EMP properly means you were outmicroed and/or outmacroed. | ||
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ULuMuGuLu
190 Posts
On November 08 2011 20:15 poofie wrote: You mean this? BLIZZCON AVATAR + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/thefrog_/aaa-6.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/thefrog_/111-7.jpg) I love that Panda-Rine :-) pretty sweet style of art. Just wondering about that 2nd thing. What is that hidden and locked Starcraft 2 - Masters Portrait thing? Anyone knows more about it? | ||
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yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On November 08 2011 20:19 Heavenly wrote: The point of what I wrote is, if your computer can't handle the game, don't play it. I've also seen tons of games where no ghost armies have still won against protoss 'deathballs' with proper positioning. My computer is also a piece of crap and I live high up in an apartment where the wifi is horrible, and I get decimated by ling/baneling all the time, that's none of Blizzard's concern. I'm not a big fan of 10 banelings destroying all of my zealots and 100 gas sentries because my forcefields go down a second late but I live with it. It's also not going to 'break' anything on any level. And I'd be more than happy if it was a reduction to overall shield damage, that'd be the same general effect on EMP (reducing the overall damage it inflicts in an AOE even if the AOE is now wider). Though most likely there would be a much bigger uproar if that was the case. The problem is instant cast spells are different from banelings. You can see banelings coming, and can react in order to save at least some of your units. With EMP and FF, there's really nothing you can do. The reason I brought up my shitty computer wasn't to say Blizzard needs to make sure everyone can play at 5 fps, but that I don't have these problems in other matchups. TvZ is so much more micro and multitasking intensive, but you can still play positionally, and little fuck-ups don't really cost you the game. If you can't target fire banelings with tanks as effectily, you have to run marines back a little further, and will maybe lose 1 or 2 more tanks. There's an effect, but it's not crippling. I find TvP to be a generally boring and uninspired matchup where from the mid-game onward, conflict is actively avoided because the battles are generally so one-sided, and focusing too much on harass draws your attention away from your main army, which can be decimated by spellcasters instantly. There's no real space control for either side, unlike creep/tanks are for Z and T. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On November 08 2011 15:06 NicolBolas wrote: Except that it doesn't. In TvT, you don't spend any real time with Bio. You build just enough to survive the early game and head straight to Tanks and Vikings. that's nonsense. There are plenty of games where the terran player stays on bio in tvt for an extended period, and then later switching into something else, or starts adding on better units to their bio composition, which is still a tech transition. Boxer's game yesterday is the first game that comes to mind - he even had two maxed out upgrade paths by the end of the game. | ||
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yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On November 08 2011 20:28 Heavenly wrote: It's not like saying that, because I offered a way in which you can make those sentries wasted gas whereas medivacs are never wasted gas. You are also assuming you are at a point where somehow stalkers can blink forward into your stimmed army to be able to snipe out those medivacs without a ton of stalkers also being destroyed. If they have 10 sentries and enough stalkers to do that, you should have enough EMPs do deal the number of sentries. If not, the protoss should probably win that engagement anyway, especially if his micro is good enough for proper blinking + forcefields + positioning of his sentries to avoid clumping against EMP (very difficult with the way SC2 unit pathing works) compared to your inability to EMP properly means you were outmicroed and/or outmacroed. I am talking about chargelot heavy comps, and forcefielding nearly the entire army to prevent kiting. Trying to airlift out of that will result in dead medivacs. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3703 Posts
On November 08 2011 20:33 Quotidian wrote: that's nonsense. There are plenty of games where the terran player stays on bio in tvt for an extended period, and then later switching into something else, or starts adding on better units to their bio composition, which is still a tech transition. Boxer's game yesterday is the first game that comes to mind - he even had two maxed out upgrade paths by the end of the game. You can go pure Bio vs Mech for a reasonable time. If your opponnent goes Marine/Tank you can only go mech or Marine/Tank yourself pure bio usually just straight up looses vs marine/tank (unless the tank guy does a mistake). | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On November 08 2011 20:34 yeint wrote: I am talking about chargelot heavy comps, and forcefielding nearly the entire army to prevent kiting. Trying to airlift out of that will result in dead medivacs. Make a ton of marines and ghosts then. I've watched plenty of games where equal supply terran absolutely annihilates gateway-centric protoss play. If you have enough chargelots to do significant damage + 10 sentries + enough stalkers to blink forward to get those medivacs then they have a ton of supply in gateway which would melt. All you are doing is giving a hypothetical engagement where protoss will win, I can also offer you plenty of hypothetical engagements where terran could win if they catch protoss in an unfavorable way. | ||
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oberhofer
Germany98 Posts
Edit: on the client screenshot the starcraft master portrait is also found between the predator and the adjutant portrait... so this could be it. but who is it? | ||
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ULuMuGuLu
190 Posts
On November 08 2011 20:41 oberhofer wrote: I'd be pretty dissapointed it this is the Masters Portrait. Really... i mean yet another Marine Portrait? There seem to be a million of them :-( Just every time another guy sitting in that boring Marine Dress x.xAnyone ever noticed this portrait? The one to the right of the predator portrait (http://sea.battle.net/sc2/static/local-common/images/sc2/portraits/3-75.jpg?v35 ) Could be related to Starcraft Master? Edit: on the client screenshot the starcraft master portrait is also found between the predator and the adjutant portrait... so this could be it. but who is it? | ||
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TheDraken
United States640 Posts
On November 08 2011 19:13 VPFaith wrote: Haha, are snipes that Overpowered? 1 feedback pretty much kill any unit that has energy. have you seen what a group of 8 ghosts can do to an army of broodlords or ultras? it's horrific. no way in hell a stupid little sniper should be able to take out an ultralisk. there's a difference between a unit that can instakill anything with energy and a unit that can semi-instakill (just needs spamming) absolutely every unit of an entire race. snipe would have a perfectly fine balance if it didn't affect massive or at the very least ultras. it would still be strong against banes, isolated infestors, overseers, mutas, or even used concurrently with a terran bio army against roach hydra to soften the enemy. it seems blizz has recognized it and it will fortunately get fixed both in patch and in the expansion, but i'm not going to hold my breath. | ||
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yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
1 Ultra = 300/200 1.65 ghosts = 330/165 Considering that ghosts are made to counter Broodlords, and the Ultra switch comes afterwards, full energy ghosts are highly unlikely. It takes more than 3 half energy ghosts to kill 1 ultra. I really don't understand how it's "horrific" for 600/300 6 food to kill 300/200 6 food. | ||
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On November 08 2011 21:22 yeint wrote: One full energy ghost can snipe 8 times. It takes 13 snipes to kill an Ultra, i.e. about 1.65 ghosts. 1 Ultra = 300/200 1.65 ghosts = 330/165 Considering that ghosts are made to counter Broodlords, and the Ultra switch comes afterwards, full energy ghosts are highly unlikely. It takes more than 3 half energy ghosts to kill 1 ultra. I really don't understand how it's "horrific" for 600/300 6 food to kill 300/200 6 food. This is retarded. You can make anything seem reasonable by playing around with numbers in a meaningless speculative way. | ||
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DrAbuse
Germany209 Posts
On November 08 2011 20:52 ULuMuGuLu wrote: I'd be pretty dissapointed it this is the Masters Portrait. Really... i mean yet another Marine Portrait? There seem to be a million of them :-( Just every time another guy sitting in that boring Marine Dress x.x Actually thats the Hercules from the campaign. | ||
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Iyerbeth
England2410 Posts
On November 08 2011 21:22 yeint wrote: One full energy ghost can snipe 8 times. It takes 13 snipes to kill an Ultra, i.e. about 1.65 ghosts. 1 Ultra = 300/200 1.65 ghosts = 330/165 Considering that ghosts are made to counter Broodlords, and the Ultra switch comes afterwards, full energy ghosts are highly unlikely. It takes more than 3 half energy ghosts to kill 1 ultra. I really don't understand how it's "horrific" for 600/300 6 food to kill 300/200 6 food. Generally the issue isn't the cost it's a mixture of the unit composition that the Zerg players can use, having one unit with that massive range that can spam down your biggest/strongest/highest tech units literallally as fast as your opponent can click without them even being able to get a hit in - and with one unit being the answer to all of it so that there's not even any choice to make to find the best answer to the Zergs most powerful tech options. That isn't intended as a balance complaint, but merely to point out there's more to it than the base cost. | ||
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turamn
United States1374 Posts
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redFF
United States3910 Posts
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