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On November 08 2011 21:59 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 21:50 FallDownMarigold wrote:On November 08 2011 21:38 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 21:27 FallDownMarigold wrote:On November 08 2011 21:22 yeint wrote:
One full energy ghost can snipe 8 times. It takes 13 snipes to kill an Ultra, i.e. about 1.65 ghosts.
1 Ultra = 300/200
1.65 ghosts = 330/165
Considering that ghosts are made to counter Broodlords, and the Ultra switch comes afterwards, full energy ghosts are highly unlikely. It takes more than 3 half energy ghosts to kill 1 ultra. I really don't understand how it's "horrific" for 600/300 6 food to kill 300/200 6 food. This is retarded. You can make anything seem reasonable by playing around with numbers in a meaningless speculative way. How is it meaningless? Why is massing an expensive caster to counter specific massive units "horrific", especially against a late game strategy that relies on a fast tech switch between two unit types? Just countering brood/ultra doesn't automatically make them "horrific", you need some rationale to explain why they're unfair. Are they too cheap? No. Do they counter everything the Zerg has? No, just the T3 power units. Straw man? I'm not arguing for whether or not something is "horrific", nor am I saying anything about massing caster units. It's not a strawman, since I wasn't talking to you in the first place. I was responding to someone else who said ghosts are imbalanced. Show nested quote +I said your use of numbers and generalizations/assumptions about scenarios are meaningless in your response to him. It's just a laughable way of evaluating a unit's utility or commenting on its effectiveness. That's really all I'm going to say. If you can't broaden your thinking and realize why it is totally illogical, that's not my concern. How is it laughable to discuss the resource and supply cost of units, when discussing perceived imbalances in an economy-based RTS? What other metric could there possibly be? Infrastructure requirements?
BECAUSE YOU ARE USING A STUPID CONTRIVED EXAMPLE WITH NUMBERS AND ILLOGICAL MATH COMPARISONS TO PROVE A SUBJECTIVE POINT ABOUT THE GAME, WHICH HASN'T EVEN HAD TIME TO PAN OUT YET IN PRACTICE.
edit: wow lol, only meant to caps-lock the first few words
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On November 08 2011 21:44 IgnE wrote:
Even if the auto-matchmaking system gives you 50% wins in all 3 matchups, it's not fun to win 50% of your mirror, 60+% of tvz and feel hopeless going into tvp, knowing that you have to win before he gets out collosus and HTs.
Cheaper upgrades make upgrades faster. Anyone who "does math" and says that the upgrades are still the same length have no real concept of how the game actually works. Upgrades are rarely, except in special builds, hit at a certain time, all the time, at the expense of other basic macro priorities. They are typically fit into the builds by using extra accumulated gas/minerals that would have been used to tech somewhere else/add more production/set up an expansion/gear up for an attack/defense. When you have cheaper upgrades, its much easier to accumulate the required resources in the normal course of macro and hence makes it easier to fit in earlier in builds. In empirical practice, cheaper means faster, on average, across all players and games. That said, I would be fine with the upgrade buff if the emp nerf weren't so bad.
I'd almost rather have KA back in the game than have to nerf emp. I like the shield upgrade idea reducing emp damage to shields.
The emp nerf effectively kills early ghost builds which depended on doing cost effective damage to shields/sentry energy. Terrans have one less pressure build to use, allowing protoss to either macro up more easily, or use their more powerful 2 base timings. This also makes it more dangerous for terrans to take an early third, which they now need even more in order to get out more ghosts to deal with the protoss deathball.
Of corse you'd prefer KA back instead of EMP Nerf, because ghosts could EMP Templars anyways...you could give like 100 energy to every new Templar and that'd be true....
in short...you wanna Ghost as the main imba counter everything but Terran units...
=P
Get along my boy, the remove of KA is far more impressive change than this EMP radious nerf !
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On November 08 2011 21:53 yeint wrote:Ghosts kill lings about as effectively as drones kill ultralisks.
ghosts 2 shot lings w/ autoattack
why would you snipe?
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On November 08 2011 22:06 tuestresfat wrote:
Reading threads like these seriously makes me pray no one from blizzard ever browses this site.
Still much better than the bnet forums lol.
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On November 08 2011 22:17 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 21:59 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 21:50 FallDownMarigold wrote:On November 08 2011 21:38 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 21:27 FallDownMarigold wrote:On November 08 2011 21:22 yeint wrote:
One full energy ghost can snipe 8 times. It takes 13 snipes to kill an Ultra, i.e. about 1.65 ghosts.
1 Ultra = 300/200
1.65 ghosts = 330/165
Considering that ghosts are made to counter Broodlords, and the Ultra switch comes afterwards, full energy ghosts are highly unlikely. It takes more than 3 half energy ghosts to kill 1 ultra. I really don't understand how it's "horrific" for 600/300 6 food to kill 300/200 6 food. This is retarded. You can make anything seem reasonable by playing around with numbers in a meaningless speculative way. How is it meaningless? Why is massing an expensive caster to counter specific massive units "horrific", especially against a late game strategy that relies on a fast tech switch between two unit types? Just countering brood/ultra doesn't automatically make them "horrific", you need some rationale to explain why they're unfair. Are they too cheap? No. Do they counter everything the Zerg has? No, just the T3 power units. Straw man? I'm not arguing for whether or not something is "horrific", nor am I saying anything about massing caster units. It's not a strawman, since I wasn't talking to you in the first place. I was responding to someone else who said ghosts are imbalanced. I said your use of numbers and generalizations/assumptions about scenarios are meaningless in your response to him. It's just a laughable way of evaluating a unit's utility or commenting on its effectiveness. That's really all I'm going to say. If you can't broaden your thinking and realize why it is totally illogical, that's not my concern. How is it laughable to discuss the resource and supply cost of units, when discussing perceived imbalances in an economy-based RTS? What other metric could there possibly be? Infrastructure requirements? BECAUSE YOU ARE USING A STUPID CONTRIVED EXAMPLE WITH NUMBERS AND ILLOGICAL MATH COMPARISONS TO PROVE A SUBJECTIVE POINT ABOUT THE GAME, WHICH HASN'T EVEN HAD TIME TO PAN OUT YET IN PRACTICE. edit: wow lol, only meant to caps-lock the first few words
What is contrived about saying that even full-energy ghosts aren't cheaper, and then giving a random example of how many half-energy ghosts it takes to kill an ultra?
And what the hell is a subjective point? If it's just to say "I dislike that ghosts kill ultras and can't explain why", then you're not really contributing anything to a discussion about whether they need to be rebalanced or not.
If you dislike ghosts for a reason, then it needs to be an objective one. Since no such reason was provided, I pointed out that at least as far as unit costs go, ghosts in sufficient numbers to kill anything aren't cheap at all.
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On November 08 2011 22:21 taintmachine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 21:53 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 21:44 Lorch wrote:
Ghost: Kills every zerg unit. Ghosts kill lings about as effectively as drones kill ultralisks. ghosts 2 shot lings w/ autoattack why would you snipe?
Okay, I'm officially done with this topic, people are seriously arguing against "ghosts are terrible against lings".
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On November 08 2011 22:21 taintmachine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 21:53 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 21:44 Lorch wrote:
Ghost: Kills every zerg unit. Ghosts kill lings about as effectively as drones kill ultralisks. ghosts 2 shot lings w/ autoattack why would you snipe?
because ghosts attack friggin slow and get ripped apart by lings? Go into a unit tester and try 10 ghosts against 50 lings. The ghosts will disappear even if they cost far more.
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On November 08 2011 22:27 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 22:17 FallDownMarigold wrote:On November 08 2011 21:59 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 21:50 FallDownMarigold wrote:On November 08 2011 21:38 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 21:27 FallDownMarigold wrote:On November 08 2011 21:22 yeint wrote:
One full energy ghost can snipe 8 times. It takes 13 snipes to kill an Ultra, i.e. about 1.65 ghosts.
1 Ultra = 300/200
1.65 ghosts = 330/165
Considering that ghosts are made to counter Broodlords, and the Ultra switch comes afterwards, full energy ghosts are highly unlikely. It takes more than 3 half energy ghosts to kill 1 ultra. I really don't understand how it's "horrific" for 600/300 6 food to kill 300/200 6 food. This is retarded. You can make anything seem reasonable by playing around with numbers in a meaningless speculative way. How is it meaningless? Why is massing an expensive caster to counter specific massive units "horrific", especially against a late game strategy that relies on a fast tech switch between two unit types? Just countering brood/ultra doesn't automatically make them "horrific", you need some rationale to explain why they're unfair. Are they too cheap? No. Do they counter everything the Zerg has? No, just the T3 power units. Straw man? I'm not arguing for whether or not something is "horrific", nor am I saying anything about massing caster units. It's not a strawman, since I wasn't talking to you in the first place. I was responding to someone else who said ghosts are imbalanced. I said your use of numbers and generalizations/assumptions about scenarios are meaningless in your response to him. It's just a laughable way of evaluating a unit's utility or commenting on its effectiveness. That's really all I'm going to say. If you can't broaden your thinking and realize why it is totally illogical, that's not my concern. How is it laughable to discuss the resource and supply cost of units, when discussing perceived imbalances in an economy-based RTS? What other metric could there possibly be? Infrastructure requirements? BECAUSE YOU ARE USING A STUPID CONTRIVED EXAMPLE WITH NUMBERS AND ILLOGICAL MATH COMPARISONS TO PROVE A SUBJECTIVE POINT ABOUT THE GAME, WHICH HASN'T EVEN HAD TIME TO PAN OUT YET IN PRACTICE. edit: wow lol, only meant to caps-lock the first few words What is contrived about saying that even full-energy ghosts aren't cheaper, and then giving a random example of how many half-energy ghosts it takes to kill an ultra? And what the hell is a subjective point? If it's just to say "I dislike that ghosts kill ultras and can't explain why", then you're not really contributing anything to a discussion about whether they need to be rebalanced or not. If you dislike ghosts for a reason, then it needs to be an objective one. Since no such reason was provided, I pointed out that at least as far as unit costs go, ghosts in sufficient numbers to kill anything aren't cheap at all.
Look at what I called "meaningless". I called your example meaningless because it uses numbers in a totally contrived and specific scenario, and you cannot do that to prove a point about something like a unit's overall value or whatever. It's illogical. Your fallacy is using math truths such as "X is greater than Y" to explain something as complex as race/unit differences and comparisons. It's stupid, and it's been discussed many many many many many times! It's not my original thought that one cannot make dumb cost-based comparisons about units -- especially when using the comparisons to make arguments about races and weakness/strengths. We can get into all kinds of stupid analysis that appears mathematically sound, would you not agree? As such, let's avoid using it to prove points such as "but u needs 1.65868 ghost to snipe 1.001 ultra so therefore u will need 3.6 ghost after the BLs pop and 1 minute to accrue energy and...blablabla" <---- obviously I'm exaggerating what you did, but you can see how useless or MEANINGLESS it is to do that type of analysis.
So then you ask, "why is it meaningless?". Shouldn't you be asking "why is my example meaningless?", since that is what I called meaningless? You directly follow the "why is it meaningless" with "why is massing casters that are good against 2 units horrific?". This does not make sense. I called your example meaningless, and I just explained to you why it's meaningless. It's illogical, thus it has no valuable meaning.
tl;dr I don't disagree with you on ghosts and their use, I just sorely disagree with your painfully bad use of numbers to say something about the overall utility of the ghost vs. ultra/BL/whatever
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On November 08 2011 22:31 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 22:21 taintmachine wrote:On November 08 2011 21:53 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 21:44 Lorch wrote:
Ghost: Kills every zerg unit. Ghosts kill lings about as effectively as drones kill ultralisks. ghosts 2 shot lings w/ autoattack why would you snipe? Okay, I'm officially done with this topic, people are seriously arguing against "ghosts are terrible against lings".
Yeah I mean Ghosts by default have a lower DPS for a price of 200/100 compared to the 25 Minerals for a Zergling. They obviously are the perfect counter. I think I follow your lead.
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On November 08 2011 22:36 FallDownMarigold wrote:
tl;dr I don't disagree with you on ghosts and their use, I just sorely disagree with your painfully bad use of numbers to say something about the overall utility of the ghost vs. ultra/BL/whatever
Look, it takes X number of ghosts to kill ultras dead. That's a fact. That is their utility. Their utility is also that they can do the same thing to BOTH hive tech units, unlike marauders/thors/vikings. This is not arguable. This is what I was pointing out. I used precise numbers for full energy ghosts, which is an unrealistic best case scenario. Even in this unrealistic best case scenario, the number of ghosts needed to kill 1 ultralisk have the same resource cost.
Now, if someone complains that the ghost can do this, they need to justify their complaint with something. Are ghosts too cheap? Are ghosts too easy to get? Can ghosts kill every single Zerg composition with ease?
I am arguing that the answer is no, no, and no. I am arguing that while ghosts are a problematic unit worthy of discussion in TvP, they are completely working as intended in TvZ.
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On November 08 2011 22:31 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 22:21 taintmachine wrote:On November 08 2011 21:53 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 21:44 Lorch wrote:
Ghost: Kills every zerg unit. Ghosts kill lings about as effectively as drones kill ultralisks. ghosts 2 shot lings w/ autoattack why would you snipe? Okay, I'm officially done with this topic, people are seriously arguing against "ghosts are terrible against lings".
Terran ball is good vs lings, and ghosts can hardcounter almost every other high tier zerg unit....
Muta, Ultra, Infestor, Broodlord...
I guess the point is that no other unit is a so versatile spellcaster. Aganist protos 3 ghosts can half damaging entire protoss deathball in one sec....did u ever put some calculations on this? this is AWESOME damage for just one skill that has no counter (No, protoss can't feedback properly)...
I can't stand that terran players thinks that Ghosts is not strong (way to strong for the costs). I mean, if by miracle terran gets underpowered i'd like to see buff in other units (but i really not seeing this change making terran so less powerful).
By the way terran should get more reapers lategame, and try transitions to half mech half bio (i'm not terran just arguing). Reapers lategame is awesome to put protoss death ball out of position. By the way protoss deathball is a counter to terran deathball. As a counter of this Terran should get to use more drops, more multitask.
The main problem is that terran thinks that facing deathball face to face has to be viable to terran, and its not true at all. by doing deathballs protoss is pinned by it's own slow units, so terran has to make a move and do multiples attacks and not stand ground and face deathball...that's the way it should be played.
It's like be protoss and make only stalkers vs. terran (believe i've done that so much and cursed myself about me being less skilled when actualy i was being less skilled AND doing a poor composition) and spect to win...he will probaly NOT win, the same goes to Terran that make balls to face protoss balls IT'll not happen...it's more likely you lose.
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On November 08 2011 22:50 The_DarkAngelz wrote:
By the way terran should get more reapers lategame, and try transitions to half mech half bio (i'm not terran just arguing). Reapers lategame is awesome to put protoss death ball out of position. By the way protoss deathball is a counter to terran deathball. As a counter of this Terran should get to use more drops, more multitask.
The main problem is that terran thinks that facing deathball face to face has to be viable to terran, and its not true at all. by doing deathballs protoss is pinned by it's own slow units, so terran has to make a move and do multiples attacks and not stand ground and face deathball...that's the way it should be played.
So what exactly is going to stop the protoss from walking his army into my main and demolishing it while my reapers are doing cute shit in his base until he warps in three stalkers, or builds a cannon if he's extremely lazy.
Speed reaper hit and runs would only work on insanely large maps like Terminus. Even Tal'darim is a bit too small for it. And even then a couple of cloaked banshees can do as much damage, and escape far more easily.
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I think it's a pretty decent patch. I really like that they lowered the cost of the shield upgrades for Protoss. Too bad I didn't have time to watch the MLG replays before the patch hit. ~_~
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On November 08 2011 22:50 The_DarkAngelz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 22:31 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 22:21 taintmachine wrote:On November 08 2011 21:53 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 21:44 Lorch wrote:
Ghost: Kills every zerg unit. Ghosts kill lings about as effectively as drones kill ultralisks. ghosts 2 shot lings w/ autoattack why would you snipe? Okay, I'm officially done with this topic, people are seriously arguing against "ghosts are terrible against lings". Terran ball is good vs lings, and ghosts can hardcounter almost every other high tier zerg unit.... Muta, Ultra, Infestor, Broodlord... I guess the point is that no other unit is a so versatile spellcaster. Aganist protos 3 ghosts can half damaging entire protoss deathball in one sec....did u ever put some calculations on this? this is AWESOME damage for just one skill that has no counter (No, protoss can't feedback properly)...
There is also this one unit that counters the whole terran race... It's the infestor.
Against terran 3 HT's can KILL an entire terran deathball in 2 sec.
The counter to emp is feedback and spread, and yes you can do both.
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[QUOTE]On November 08 2011 08:26 justiceknight wrote:
SEA server has 1.4.2 patch now
[quote]StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty - Patch 1.4.2
• Play-Time Schedule under Parental Controls now applies World of Warcraft settings to StarCraft II
[/QUOTE]
No mention of this in the first 11 pages of posts, so I was just wondering what they mean by this? I'm not a WoW player, so I don't have a clue. Might be useful for controlling my urges during exams (play time wise, not parental control lol)
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On November 08 2011 22:47 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 22:36 FallDownMarigold wrote:
tl;dr I don't disagree with you on ghosts and their use, I just sorely disagree with your painfully bad use of numbers to say something about the overall utility of the ghost vs. ultra/BL/whatever
Look, it takes X number of ghosts to kill ultras dead. That's a fact. That is their utility. Their utility is also that they can do the same thing to BOTH hive tech units, unlike marauders/thors/vikings. This is not arguable. This is what I was pointing out. I used precise numbers for full energy ghosts, which is an unrealistic best case scenario. Even in this unrealistic best case scenario, the number of ghosts needed to kill 1 ultralisk have the same resource cost. Now, if someone complains that the ghost can do this, they need to justify their complaint with something. Are ghosts too cheap? Are ghosts too easy to get? Can ghosts kill every single Zerg composition with ease? I am arguing that the answer is no, no, and no. I am arguing that while ghosts are a problematic unit worthy of discussion in TvP, they are completely working as intended in TvZ.
The problem that zergs are having with the ghost is that terran can actually win now vs INFESTOR + ULTRA / BROODLORD.
Without ghosts you can't win against this composition (especially vs infestor + broodlord). That's the reason why they want a snipe nerf. It doesn't matter that the amounted ghosts cost the same as their hive units that have to be countered. A counter to infestor + hive shouldn't be there  . Imagine that a terran can win lategame!
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On November 08 2011 09:03 Cyro wrote:
Marines are light units. Honestly i dont see tanks doing more damage to light being a game breaker in TvZ, you already 1shot zerglings and hydralisks are not exactly useful vs tanks, unless you mean the splash radius?
Tanks aren't banelings, they don't have same damage in all of the radius.
"The sieged Siege Tank has three radii of damage levels. Units within .4687 of the target are dealt full damage, units from a distance of .4687 to .7812 are dealt 50% of the full damage, and units from a distance of .7812 to 1.25 are dealt 25% of the full damage."
So yea, that nerf from 50 to 35 to light did affect damage to zerglings because most of tanks damage comes from splash, and not that 1 shotting. That's why tanks are pretty bad against zerglings now.
On November 08 2011 22:21 taintmachine wrote:
ghosts 2 shot lings w/ autoattack
why would you snipe?
you can get 6 marines for a cost of 1 ghost. what would you rather have against zerglings?
ghost are pretty terrible against zerglings, not cost effective at all.
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On November 08 2011 22:59 NoodleFish wrote:
No mention of this in the first 11 pages of posts, so I was just wondering what they mean by this? I'm not a WoW player, so I don't have a clue. Might be useful for controlling my urges during exams (play time wise, not parental control lol)
You can use parental controls to set play time limits, previously they only applied to World of Warcraft logins, now they apply to SC2 as well. You will be disconnected if logged in during that time, and not allowed to log in until the allowed time.
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On November 08 2011 22:57 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 22:50 The_DarkAngelz wrote:On November 08 2011 22:31 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 22:21 taintmachine wrote:On November 08 2011 21:53 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 21:44 Lorch wrote:
Ghost: Kills every zerg unit. Ghosts kill lings about as effectively as drones kill ultralisks. ghosts 2 shot lings w/ autoattack why would you snipe? Okay, I'm officially done with this topic, people are seriously arguing against "ghosts are terrible against lings". Terran ball is good vs lings, and ghosts can hardcounter almost every other high tier zerg unit.... Muta, Ultra, Infestor, Broodlord... I guess the point is that no other unit is a so versatile spellcaster. Aganist protos 3 ghosts can half damaging entire protoss deathball in one sec....did u ever put some calculations on this? this is AWESOME damage for just one skill that has no counter (No, protoss can't feedback properly)... There is also this one unit that counters the whole terran race... It's the infestor. Against terran 3 HT's can KILL an entire terran deathball in 2 sec. The counter to emp is feedback and spread, and yes you can do both.
All this whine can be HARDCOUNTERED by one or two GHOSTs alone...
now you know why this patch was needed !! Congrats !
edit: You can use feedback, only if terran is noob and can't EMP you, in pro level feedback always gets owned by EMP
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On November 08 2011 22:57 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 22:50 The_DarkAngelz wrote:On November 08 2011 22:31 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 22:21 taintmachine wrote:On November 08 2011 21:53 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 21:44 Lorch wrote:
Ghost: Kills every zerg unit. Ghosts kill lings about as effectively as drones kill ultralisks. ghosts 2 shot lings w/ autoattack why would you snipe? Okay, I'm officially done with this topic, people are seriously arguing against "ghosts are terrible against lings". Terran ball is good vs lings, and ghosts can hardcounter almost every other high tier zerg unit.... Muta, Ultra, Infestor, Broodlord... I guess the point is that no other unit is a so versatile spellcaster. Aganist protos 3 ghosts can half damaging entire protoss deathball in one sec....did u ever put some calculations on this? this is AWESOME damage for just one skill that has no counter (No, protoss can't feedback properly)... There is also this one unit that counters the whole terran race... It's the infestor. Against terran 3 HT's can KILL an entire terran deathball in 2 sec. The counter to emp is feedback and spread, and yes you can do both.
You realize that ghosts outrange HTs, right? HTs should never be able to do damage to Terran. I don't know about infestor's range vs. ghost's range, but snipe and EMP both take out infestors.
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EPT
