EPT1.4.2 Patch Live - Page 27
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wOOt
Australia121 Posts
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
On November 08 2011 23:19 Salv wrote: How can anyone argue that the upgrade differences that are being implemented in this patch are going to break a match-up or make a Protoss army too strong? The level one weapon and armor upgrades are unchanged, and the speed in which the upgrades complete are not being changed. In PvZ and PvT, once you start upgrading, you want to be continuously upgrading, there isn't a time where you stop upgrading because you simply cannot afford it - upgrades are prioritized. The only time I think any Protoss stops upgrading from a forge is when they simply forget, are distracted, or in the rare scenario where they need every spare mineral and gas to defend themselves. The differences in price are 75/75 mineral/gas to get to level 3 weapon and armor - that's probably less than 10 seconds that is being saved during the entire duration it takes to get from level 1 to level 3 upgrades. If you're seriously arguing that this breaks anything, you're delusional. I guess you weren't around for SaviOr in BW? He used to play quite greedy and get defilers just in the nick of time. Imagine him being able to get it 10 or 15 seconds faster now? There are a lot of things that can make the race more powerful if you increased the ability to get it a few seconds faster. I would love to chop 15 seconds off Stim research. Would you say that would be broken? Imagine the timings you could get out with that! Just saying, you cannot make a blatant statement without extensive testing. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46484 Posts
On November 08 2011 23:50 LWr wrote: Chronoboost and the fact that P doesn't have to choose between bio/mech or ranged/melee makes an upgrade buff ridiculous. That's like buffing the marine. You realize that a Protoss has to upgrade both armor and plasma shields for all of a unit's life/ defense to be upgraded, right? It evens out with the upgrades. And how is allowing Protoss players to get upgrades three seconds faster the same as buffing the most cost-efficient unit in the game? Sigh. | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On November 08 2011 23:47 malaan wrote: lol, protoss can now chrono boost 2/2 army 6 gate 2 base timing attack SO QUICKLY. Lost to it three times already on the PTR, now it's on ladder? QQQ :-( Oh yeah? How much quicker? How did 50 minerals and 50 gas, which is the amount of minerals Protoss users now save due to the new patch, make a two base timing attack come SO QUICKLY? I'd love to know. They didn't buff chronoboost, the time it takes to upgrade is still the exact same thing. The only way upgrading is quicker is that if the Protoss' level one weapon and armor upgrades finished when the Protoss had 0 minerals and 0 gas, it would take the Protoss 3 - 5 seconds longer before they could start upgrading level two weapon and armor because they would need the extra 50 minerals and 50 gas. On November 08 2011 23:50 LWr wrote: Chronoboost and the fact that P doesn't have to choose between bio/mech or ranged/melee makes an upgrade buff ridiculous. That's like buffing the marine. How is it like buffing the marine? How does this affect PvT very much at all? I'd love for anyone to explain this. The buff to Protoss upgrades is minor, and probably not needed - but ultimately it doesn't really affect the match in any significant way. | ||
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2597 Posts
On November 08 2011 23:47 malaan wrote: lol, protoss can now chrono boost 2/2 army 6 gate 2 base timing attack SO QUICKLY. Lost to it three times already on the PTR, now it's on ladder? QQQ :-( How are people still posting this nonsense? Post the replay and explain how either the reduction in time required to mine 50/50 on two bases or how the fifty minerals and fifty gas that the Protoss had in army or other investments while upgrading to 2/2 lost you the game. | ||
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pezit
Sweden302 Posts
On November 08 2011 23:53 Brotocol wrote: You do realize it's only fixed costs that were reduced? Your opponents could have done exactly the same thing before 1.4.2, except they get 1 zealot instead of 1 stalker. Sounds like a classic case of placebo effect. I mean, P upgrades definitely got a buff, but it's nowhere near as significant as many people are making it out to be. It's really just a tiny buff for the highest echelon of players, so yeah the fact that there's so much crying is just ridiculous. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46484 Posts
On November 08 2011 23:58 AmericanUmlaut wrote: How are people still posting this nonsense? Post the replay and explain how either the reduction in time required to mine 50/50 on two bases or how the fifty minerals and fifty gas that the Protoss had in army or other investments while upgrading to 2/2 lost you the game. It's obvious. The three-second upgrade buff now causes him to lose three seconds faster... and it's the buff's fault, not the fact that he didn't know how to stop the push. Protoss is clearly imbalanced now  | ||
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Avril_Lavigne
United States446 Posts
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Shuffleus
Australia764 Posts
On November 08 2011 23:58 Wegandi wrote: I guess you weren't around for SaviOr in BW? He used to play quite greedy and get defilers just in the nick of time. Imagine him being able to get it 10 or 15 seconds faster now? There are a lot of things that can make the race more powerful if you increased the ability to get it a few seconds faster. I would love to chop 15 seconds off Stim research. Would you say that would be broken? Imagine the timings you could get out with that! Just saying, you cannot make a blatant statement without extensive testing. this is so much different from shortening the upgrade time, and your entire analogy is nothing short of delusional. It's fine and I for one am not even slightly concerned that the change will make even a noticeable difference to an observer. | ||
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Traven
United States160 Posts
On November 08 2011 22:57 Snowbear wrote: There is also this one unit that counters the whole terran race... It's the infestor. Against terran 3 HT's can KILL an entire terran deathball in 2 sec. The counter to emp is feedback and spread, and yes you can do both. Do you just sit in the storm and have no medivacs. This sounds like a case of micro instead of imbalance. Also Ghost completely hard counter a high templar and sdhould always be made in TvP | ||
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secretary bird
447 Posts
On November 08 2011 23:56 The_DarkAngelz wrote: I do...i never said anything like that time has changed... i'm only saying that a 2/2 terran upgrades is more strong then 2/2/0 protoss upgrades...which is true...because protoss half life will not have the plus 2 armor ! 2 stimmed CS marines = 90 health 1 zealot = 100 1 stimmed marauder = 105 health 1 stalker = 80 Still think its only half as good? | ||
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The_DarkAngelz
Brazil221 Posts
On November 08 2011 23:58 Salv wrote: Oh yeah? How much quicker? How did 50 minerals and 50 gas, which is the amount of minerals Protoss users now save due to the new patch, make a two base timing attack come SO QUICKLY? I'd love to know. They didn't buff chronoboost, the time it takes to upgrade is still the exact same thing. The only way upgrading is quicker is that if the Protoss' level one weapon and armor upgrades finished when the Protoss had 0 minerals and 0 gas, it would take the Protoss 3 - 5 seconds longer before they could start upgrading level two weapon and armor because they would need the extra 50 minerals and 50 gas. How is it like buffing the marine? How does this affect PvT very much at all? I'd love for anyone to explain this. The buff to Protoss upgrades is minor, and probably not needed - but ultimately it doesn't really affect the match in any significant way. The shields is kinda dumb upgrade...because of Shields for protoss have 3/3/3 the time and resouces he has to spent almost doubles compareted to other races, but it get's synergy to other units (every single one) and buildings, the problem is that mechanics leaves a huge opening where 3/3 terran or zerg ground units can explore and face with a advantage a 3/3/0 protoss army. That's why when protoss makes a transition he can be feasome in lategame, because os this synergy, but in the early/mid game there's a gap ! and this mechanic will be troubesome for this entire SC2 game ! | ||
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Brotocol
243 Posts
On November 09 2011 00:03 Avril_Lavigne wrote: I can't wait for terran to overcome this struggle and fully dominate Protoss and Zerg ONCE AGAIN with pure fucking skill. Patch 1.5 nerf terran here we come! EMP now has the same area as storm, big deal. It's still instant and unavoidable, still comes from a higher range, still comes from a cheaper unit that comes from an earlier tech path. It still has the double function of (1) draining 100 energy (2) draining 100 shields. With the amount of complaining going on, you'd think they made EMP a 4 second dot spell or something. | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On November 08 2011 23:58 Wegandi wrote: I guess you weren't around for SaviOr in BW? He used to play quite greedy and get defilers just in the nick of time. Imagine him being able to get it 10 or 15 seconds faster now? There are a lot of things that can make the race more powerful if you increased the ability to get it a few seconds faster. I would love to chop 15 seconds off Stim research. Would you say that would be broken? Imagine the timings you could get out with that! Just saying, you cannot make a blatant statement without extensive testing. Well, person who joined TL in March of 2011, I actually was active in the community and around during the time of Savior, and this is nothing even remotely close to:
Obviously there are things where if you decreased the research time it would make the unit / upgrade too strong - this is not one of those cases. The research time has not been affected at all, and the only way that the research timing would be lessened if you wanted to upgrade level two protoss weapon and/or armor as soon as level one was finished, and you didn't have the money for it. Even if you assume that the Protoss was at 0/0 mineral/gas when the level one upgrades finish, there's a difference of 50 minerals and gas that needs to be made up. You think it takes 15 seconds to get 50 minerals and 50 gas? It's more like five if you have two bases, which you would if you're upgrading. So you're potentially, and in the extreme example saving around five seconds on an investment that boosts your existing armies strength, as opposed to giving you a unit that completely changes the tide of battle. See the diference? | ||
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The_DarkAngelz
Brazil221 Posts
On November 09 2011 00:06 secretary bird wrote: 2 stimmed CS marines = 90 health 1 zealot = 100 1 stimmed marauder = 105 health 1 stalker = 80 Still think its only half as good? well because of mules terran can afford more units in a period then protoss, so i guess mega early game terran push is strong...but that's not what this thread is about !!! oO | ||
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secretary bird
447 Posts
On November 09 2011 00:06 Brotocol wrote: EMP now has the same area as storm, big deal. It's still instant and unavoidable, still comes from a higher range, still comes from a cheaper unit that comes from an earlier tech path. It still has the double function of (1) draining 100 energy (2) draining 100 shields 200/100 isnt cheaper than 50/150 for terran. | ||
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stokes17
United States1411 Posts
It doesn't, good double forge builds never idle the forges. Upgrades come at the same time, build will just be slightly smoother, but 50/50 doesn't even leave room for an additional unit. | ||
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Brotocol
243 Posts
On November 09 2011 00:09 secretary bird wrote: 200/100 isnt cheaper than 50/150 for terran. People say that, but I'm not so sure, since you have a thing called Mules which boost Terran mineral income. But let's pretend you're right, and ghosts are not cheap. Okay. There's still a long, long, long list of advantages the unit still has. The whining is unfounded. I mean, the new EMP area is still the same size as storm. Not exactly chopped liver. | ||
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secretary bird
447 Posts
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Brotocol
243 Posts
On November 09 2011 00:15 secretary bird wrote: Just because mules exist the terran doesnt always have more resources than the protoss its more complicated than that but thats not what this discussion is about. And I said that even if you are right about the cost of ghosts, it's still a really powerful unit, and this nerf only brings down the radius of EMP to the same radius as psi storm, which is not bad. | ||
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